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Musical Partnerships..tricky at best!
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Subject: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: Rick Fielding Date: 21 Apr 00 - 03:19 PM I've been thinking about this after some interesting dialogue about the "Sonny and Brownie" situation. I work solo mostly but have been in some "musical partnerships" that had their share of problems. I'll add some more after I've made Duckboots' lunch, but welcome any Mudcatter feedback. Just remember that Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young were reported to have had FISTFIGHTS on stage!! Rick |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: JenEllen Date: 21 Apr 00 - 03:58 PM Rick: What did you feel was at the core of the problems you had with working with people? My personal issues always came in the creation. When I have an idea I feel is inherently 'right', and the partner starts to noodle with it, the hackles go straight in the air. To me, it's akin to someone peering over Picasso's shoulder going "It could use a little more red...dontcha think?" I can't say as it bothers me EVERY time I work with someone, but the times that it has have been legendary. (No fistfights, but I did once put a spoon through the bottom of a tupperware bowl and the whole scene terrified the cat so badly it disappeared for 2 days *bg*) ~Jen |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: DebC Date: 21 Apr 00 - 04:01 PM Hehehehe. I was in a group about 12 years ago where my ex-husband (we were married then)and I paired up with two gents who had been playing music together for almost 20 years. I used to say that it was hell working with another married couple. We lasted five years and the music was GREAT. I still think it was the best group that I have ever been in, but hoo boy, was it a hassle. Debra |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: MK Date: 21 Apr 00 - 04:06 PM Possible problems/conflicts encountered with various musical partnerships over the years (based solely on personal experience): - disagreements how a given song should be arranged - disagreements of the exact chords or voicings, as lifted from an original cover - disagreements over money/salaries - disagreements of how the band should be attired on stage - disagreements over negotiating gigs with club owners, and selling out the band too cheaply. - disagreements over what members in a band should be replaced (especially difficult when one of the partners is intimately involved with a female vocalist, who couldn't carry a tune if it had handles on it.) - disagreements as to whether to be "union" or not. |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: Kara Date: 21 Apr 00 - 04:39 PM I have been working on and off with the men I live with with for 10 years. It is very hard, slightly less so if there are other people involved as a third opinion can be a decider. I am now pleased that we both have seperate projects, but still work togeter on The Joseph Shnider Set and go regular sessions together. I know one couple who played and rowed together for years and ended up giving up living together, so that they could carry on playing together, and have carried on for 6 years with no sign of giving up. |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: Peter T. Date: 21 Apr 00 - 04:40 PM On (I assume a) positive note: Is the hot Fielding-Laskin-Stubbs Inc. Trio ever going to get back together again? Inquiring fans wish to know. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: Irish sergeant Date: 21 Apr 00 - 06:06 PM I'm beginning to think I was smart to not try to become a band member. I play strictly amateur around the campfire and usually someone will join with another instrument or two. It always seems to work. Are we sure the fistfights on stage with Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young weren't due to recreational pharmecuticals? |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: catspaw49 Date: 21 Apr 00 - 06:26 PM Well, I WOULD submit that "recreational pharmaceuticals" and booze has rendered them all incapable of much of a fistfight now! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: Sandy Paton Date: 21 Apr 00 - 07:30 PM You mean the potential Jerry Springer nature of the show is NOT the reason the tickets for the "good" seats at the Crosby-Stills-Nash-Young Hartford concert sold out almost immediately at $201 (!!) per seat? Could it have been for the music, 'Spaw? Sandy (who thinks he may never have heard them!) |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: Clinton Hammond2 Date: 21 Apr 00 - 08:02 PM I approach it this way... Everyone in the band is expected to agree to the Rules Of Piracy as set down by Bartholomew Roberts, such as... 1)All Important decisions to be put to a vote... Defining an important decision asn anyone where there isn't instant agreement from all sides 2)Any one caught stealing shall be marooned... it's very easy to be told, "GET OUT!" 3)All pistols and cutlasses will be kept clean... and axes and basses, and bodhrans and ect ect... 4)No women on board... well... We kinda let this one slide so we could be in the band with Liz And Kath. :-) 5)All Quarrels will be settled on shore... Not on stage, not in the parking lot after the show when the audience is filing out, It gets settled on neutral territory the next day! 6) Booty Shares are distributed equally among the crew! (this is a departure from Black Bart, but not by much!) 7) Anyone who deserts ship in battle shall be put to death... K, again, a little extream, but it'll certainly be yer last gig with us! 8)Injuries to be compensated... Any man who loses a limb in battle shall recieve extra booty... break a string it's yer own problem, have a serious problem that say, the bar ain't gonna cover then the band will help you out, especially so's we can have you on board for the next gig... And well it seems to work well for us... And if I may address Mikes list of potential problemsa above...
Thanks fer letting me ramble on!! LOL!!!! |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: Sorcha Date: 21 Apr 00 - 08:19 PM I guess I have been very lucky. I have played with the same group of people for 15 yrs. and we have never had a serious disagreement. However, we are NOT a band. We are a non profit club, and none of us want to be professionals. The core group is about 6 of us, others come and go as suits them. We are quite laid back about what tunes we play, and what order we play them in--not set lists, just a play list. Some people want more structure than we have and they just drift off after a while. Who ever starts the song gets the lead, if he/she wants it. We try to rotate around the group so that everybody has a chance to choose a tune. Since we are non profit, we work for peanuts--sometimes literally. All schools, hospitals, care homes, town-fests etc. are played free. If the producers are making $ or if it is a private party, we get paid the grand sum of $45.00/hr. This goes in a kitty, and we have a blow out Xmas party, and donate the rest to something like the library to buy music with, or the local Arts Council to sponsor a concert. The biggest problem we have is that since we are a club, we can't/won't kick anybody out, so we get the rude players that walk on people, the guys who only play in D and play there regardless of where everyone else is playing, etc. Most of these don't last long, because we ignore them, and if a gig is really important, we are just selective about who we inform! Cheating I know, but it works! |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: Bev and Jerry Date: 21 Apr 00 - 08:43 PM We have been singing together for 38 years, the last twenty professionally. While either of us is free to comment on anything, we divide up the ultimate responsibility for everything using two criteria. The one who does the task best is responsible or, the one who hates it the least is responsible. For example, on stage Jerry is always responsible for the set list because he has a better memory for this stuff (but a worse memory for everything else). Bev is always responsible for keeping the audience attentive (we play in schools) because her class management skills are much better. Jerry is always responsible for the sound system because he is a recovering electronics engineer. Bev is always responsible for dealing with school personnel because her people skills are much better. At home, Jerry does the dishes because he hates it less than Bev but Bev cleans the bathrooms because she hates it less than Jerry. Etc, etc, etc.
This scheme seems to work most of the time. That's how we've managed to stay married for 40 years. Bev and Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 21 Apr 00 - 09:54 PM that's probably why I was always a solo... Art |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: catspaw49 Date: 21 Apr 00 - 10:09 PM Sandy.....uh, ya' know it's funny, but I am less troubled by the possibility that you have never heard CSN&Y than I am by the possibility you may be watching Jerry Springer!!! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: Rick Fielding Date: 21 Apr 00 - 10:30 PM Spaw, don't worry. Sandy has never seen Jerry Springer and thinks Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young are a law firm! He did however sing with the Sex Pistols a few years ago. Jen Ellen, often when I had trouble working with a partner it came down to non-musical issues. I HATE being late or even close to it, when it comes to gigs. Arriving an hour early and then waiting til five minutes before the gig for your partner to show up was agonizing. In one other situation, a chap I was working with would look at his watch in the middle of a set. I put up with it for a couple of weeks and then quit (it was his gig). To me that insults the audience. Like Art, 90% of my work has been solo. If I screw up, I just give myself a good talking to! Rick |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: GUEST,moonchild Date: 21 Apr 00 - 11:46 PM Years ago, I sang with several groups or partners and there were never any problems. Professionally, I've always been a solo act. I really love singing with partners, especially Allan C. and harpgirl, but I'm always the one singing the harmony! I heard David Crosby say, a few months back, that he is a natural harmony singer. My thinking is that some people hear the harmony and some don't, regardless of how talented a musician/singer they are. I hear 3's, 5's, and 7's. Obviously, I'm used to controlling my gigs, so don't know if I could change that, now. Sorry for the threadcreep into the harmony thing ... moonchild |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: JenEllen Date: 22 Apr 00 - 02:53 AM Rick: I can see where the time thing could chap your hide. That is just an issue of common decency. Folks should be in attendance on time and when expected. And it's a wonder the audience didn't leave if the guy was checking his watch. I sure would have! Some things I have learned from working with others is the basic 'Golden Rule' stuff. I wouldn't want anyone else to show up late, be rude, etc., so I won't do it. That and before getting my shorts in a knot, taking a breath and wondering if the situation will matter 'a year from now'. A person being late/rude on one occasion isn't really worth the hassle, but collaborations that are more long-term require the group members to deal with situations that may affect their performance in the future. |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 22 Apr 00 - 03:21 AM Great topic, Rick-- Michael K hit on all of the real biggies--and I think that everybody who has worked in groups for any period of time at all had had to deal with each one--Though I can add a bit more, I think... Differences on how much rehearsal time is needed and how seriously that time should be taken-- Differences on when new material is needed, and on what material is appropriate-- Differences on what constitutes a good set list-- Differences concerning the presence and involvement of outsiders at rehearsals, backstage, and in transit-- I think I used up all my good stories on other threads--except maybe "Mr. X", who was a "crooner" that I accompanied--he had a nasty habit of singing in a key other than the one we had rehearsed in, even though it was the one I was playing in--he also would rehearse songs to death, and then perform songs we had not rehearsed at all-- Did I mention my "Songwriters" band that ended up doing mostly covers because the other songwriter only had six tunes that were actually playable, and so he refused to play more than six of anyone elses songs? There was the "Gypsy" Band (sorry about that, Larry) that I got fired from,half-way through a Ren-Faire season--they then came back and tried to borrow my music folio, because the other musicians were classically trained, and had just been reading from my arrangements--
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: sophocleese Date: 22 Apr 00 - 10:38 AM MTed you hit the big issue that gets me; the amount of serious rehearsal. For once I'm in a duo where I am often the one saying, "I think that's okay we can do this one." Instead of saying "Can we go over that last verse again, I'm not sure enough of my harmony." I've sung in a couple of small choirs and the fighting can get very fierce over who gets what solo part, its not the best voice but the strongest personality that decides it, when that's the conductor that's fine but when one of the singers has the conductor under their thumb its awful. Clinton said that on many of the issues decent musicians know the difference between what works and what doesn't. I'm not so sure of that. I know that my background in music is different from my partner's background so we each aim for a slightly different sound from the music. The saving grace of course is that we can respectfully disagree about it and still keep working. We are willing to try what the other suggests and hear how it sounds instead of dismissing it out of hand. Sorry for the ramble, good rehearsal last night. |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: DebC Date: 22 Apr 00 - 11:07 AM I have to agree with Rick. It seems that in all the groups that I have been in the sources of conflicts were always non-musical issues. Schedules were alwas a source of conflict and the time thing (one of our members was habitually late for rehearsals, but not gigs) as Rick mentioned. I am pretty anal when it comes to being on time as well, and I get really irritated when folks are late. Now that I look back, I have to see that the greatest source of conflict was the difference in goals for the group. If you all don't have the same goals it ain't gonna fly. If everyone agrees that the group will be a "hobby band" and not go any further than that, then things might go well. Our troubles seemed to deepen when we began to get popular and we were being asked to play more gigs out of town. It bagan to come down where significant others were not happy with the time away from them and of course, taking time away from the day job. It seemed that the one thing we all agreed on was the music and how it should be played and sung. Weird, huh? Debra |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: Rick Fielding Date: 22 Apr 00 - 11:40 AM Ya know, I've been thinking about this "late" thing, and it occurrs to me that not all folks are on the same page as far as what "being on time" constitutes. I've watched countless bands go on half an hour (or MUCH more) late, with no complaints from an audience. It's about "attitude" (the "in your face" kind) isn't it? When even folkies or country people like Ramblin' Jack Elliot, George Jones, etc. go on stage late and drunk, and the people still luv 'em, cause they EXPECT it. Same thing with folks who go WAY over their time in a scheduled program (festivals, multiple act concerts etc.). I suppose some would call these "musical differences" but to me they're social ones. Course "tuning" is another issue that seems tiny and picky, but I'm a fanatic about it. I worked with a player who was always out of tune 'cause her capo was always too tight and would stretch the strings. I mentioned it a couple of times but she didn't seem to notice a problem. She probably wonders why I was never available after the first couple of gigs to back her up, but trying to play leads to make her sound good while the guitars were out of tune with each other drove me nuts. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: The Shambles Date: 22 Apr 00 - 05:54 PM Well the negative bits have been pretty well covered but there are of course good things too.
I always think the best things in life are created by a good-old compromise. Whenever you play with anyone other than yourself, you have to do this. The results are going to be different to anything created on your own and usually better. When you listen to those records, were one person, either plays all the instruments or has complete control over the way the finished product sounds, it usually sounds less than the same persons work with others.
The Beatles solo work, whilst producing a few memorable things, Never matched the overall quality of the stuff they made together. With the advice, musical and recording expertise of the 'fifth Beatle', George Martin. No one seemed to have the courage to say "Paul, that is too 'slushy' for words" or "John, that is just boring".
It's not much fun having 'musical differences' with yourself, and there is nothing like a good row.
No matter how talented you are, as a solo performer, there is a limit to how long you can retain an audience's attention. There are exceptions to this rule of course and those few individuals that can do this, do tend to make it look easy, but it is not.
With others, you have less freedom, yes. On your own, you can say to yourself "that chorus went well, I'll do it again", if you try do that with others, the results can be messy. But I have found that experience gained from playing with a group does make me a better, more disciplined solo performer as well.
There are more instrumental combinations possible, with others. The sound is fuller, with more texture and it adds more interest. Even if there is just one other person up there on stage with you (and they may not be doing very much), it does give an audience something else to look at.
Tuning can be a problem, but I tend to subscribe to the idea that perfect tuning is an impossibility and thus not worth spending too much effort to achieve. Slight variations in tuning also add to the texture. On TV here tonight there was a concert featuring 7 year olds playing a classical violin piece, with some rather more accomplished, slightly older (young) players. The notes that the young ones were making were not always exactly the ones that they should have been playing, but the overall effect was quite beautiful.
The most important thing is, when you screw-up, you can blame everybody else and when the gig goes well, you can share the feeling with the others. Always remembering (silently inside), that, all eyes were on you really and that you were the star, after all. |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: Little Neophyte Date: 22 Apr 00 - 07:17 PM I wonder, does the type of personality have much to do with whether or not the partnership works? Some people naturally seek out other people to be with while others are more comfortable being along. Put a loner in a group dynamics and it can become challenging for everyone involved. I personally prefer to do things alone. It seems being a loner is a more natural comfortable way for me to be. Yet I think it is a good thing when I do experience being in a group. It challenge my limitations and opens me up to new experiences, but it can also test my patience too. I think this aspect of my personality might be an important thing for me to keep in mind when I do start seeking out other musicians to play with. Little Neo |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: Rick Fielding Date: 22 Apr 00 - 10:34 PM Good point Bonnie. I'm a loner who loves being around people; adults and children alike. But when I want my solitary time...I REALLY want my solitary time. Sham is right about compromising, but in regards to tuning, it's just very difficult for me to hear someone with a note or two a quarter tone sharp (flat bothers me a little less) and be able enjoy the music. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: MK Date: 22 Apr 00 - 10:47 PM The best advice I can give to ANYONE looking to join a band or a musical partnership is, make sure YOU, are the weakest link musically. (This is not to detract from your talents and abilities) but if you can make it into a group like this, the stronger talents and musical diversity of the other musicians will push you, motivate you, and ultimately make a better play out of you than you could have ever imagined, in your struggle to keep up. (...course, taking a gig on a cruise ship where you play an average of 7-8 hours a day, 6 days a week, can do wonders for your chops, working in new material, and, overcoming any stage fright you thought you had.) |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: Little Neophyte Date: 22 Apr 00 - 10:57 PM Well Michael K. I think that advice about being the weakest link should be pretty easy for me to follow. Rick you described me perfectly. I am a loner in nature who likes to be around people but knows when it is time to be alone. Little Loner |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: MK Date: 22 Apr 00 - 11:01 PM Bonnie, we were all once "Little Neophytes" musically. Gotta take a deep breath and make the leap at some point. (You will still be anatomically correct after the process. *BG*) |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: Rick Fielding Date: 22 Apr 00 - 11:06 PM Good advice Michael. Working 4 weeks at a time in Wawa during the winter has the same effect. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: MK Date: 22 Apr 00 - 11:11 PM ...or playing double time, along with a sequenced keyboard/bass/drum accompaniment...for an hour or two! |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: Rick Fielding Date: 23 Apr 00 - 04:07 PM You know it just occurred to me that virtually ALL of the "Musical Partnerships" of the sixties and seventies ended on rancorous notes, but one that apparently didn't was P,P and M. They appear to still like each other. Any others that come to mind? It really IS like a marriage, isn't it? Rick |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: catspaw49 Date: 23 Apr 00 - 04:50 PM That's a far better question than the original Rick.....ALL partnerships can fail for a lot of the same reasons, be they musical or otherwise. Regarding who's left? I guess we don't have to include the Patons since they started in the 50's......or was that just an oversight? And can we include starts in the 50's? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Musical Partnerships..tricky at best! From: Little Neophyte Date: 23 Apr 00 - 05:10 PM Well I guess applying all these musical partnership issues to the analogy of marriage sums up why I am now single. Little Solo Neo |
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