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favourite hymn books

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Mooh 21 May 00 - 10:30 AM
Megan L 21 May 00 - 10:43 AM
Nathan in Texas 21 May 00 - 02:08 PM
GUEST 21 May 00 - 03:57 PM
Dale Rose 21 May 00 - 04:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 May 00 - 05:34 PM
Mooh 21 May 00 - 05:55 PM
pastorpest 21 May 00 - 06:47 PM
Cap't Bob 21 May 00 - 07:29 PM
Mooh 21 May 00 - 09:57 PM
GUEST,mary g 21 May 00 - 11:06 PM
Joe Offer 22 May 00 - 01:33 AM
alison 22 May 00 - 02:07 AM
Dani 22 May 00 - 08:31 AM
IanC 22 May 00 - 08:47 AM
Cap't Bob 22 May 00 - 09:36 AM
ceitagh 22 May 00 - 01:50 PM
GUEST,Sian in wales 22 May 00 - 04:34 PM
Joe Offer 25 May 00 - 09:04 PM
ceitagh 25 May 00 - 10:23 PM
Mooh 26 May 00 - 09:53 AM
MMario 26 May 00 - 10:11 AM
GUEST,Dave 26 May 00 - 10:30 AM
Penny S. 27 May 00 - 05:56 AM
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Subject: favourite hymn books & why
From: Mooh
Date: 21 May 00 - 10:30 AM

I've been reading with considerable interest the threads regarding hymns. Thanks to many of you for directing me to other threads, especially The Shambles.

I know what convulsions some churches endure to publish a new hymn book, and the religious forums are welcome to that topic, I'd hate to revisit that history here. But some very good hymn books have been published.

I personally have only six on my shelf, but I was sorta thinking I'd like to collect them, so...

What are your favourites? Why?

Thanks for your interest and consideration.

Peace, Mooh.

Say, Mooh - this is most assuredly a music thread, and a fascinating one, at that. It shouldn't be classified as "BS."
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: favourite hymn books
From: Megan L
Date: 21 May 00 - 10:43 AM

I use several hymn book but my favourite is still the redemtion hymns, they have a power that some of the newer choruses lack.

MeganL


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Subject: RE: BS: favourite hymn books
From: Nathan in Texas
Date: 21 May 00 - 02:08 PM

"Heavenly Highway Hymns" is a good one for oldtime, fun-to-sing southern gospel songs.

My favorite, probably because it's the one I grew up with and I know all the songs is "All American Chuch Hymnal." Publshed by John T. Benson Publsihc Co, Nashville

A readily available paperback that has a lot of standards and includes chords is "The Country & Western Gospel Hymnal," published by Singspiration Music, Grand Rapids.


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Subject: RE: BS: favourite hymn books
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 00 - 03:57 PM

Good old Ancient and Modern for all the traditional ones, New English Hymnal, for the alternative tunes.

For the more modern set - try Songs and Hymns of Fellowship - a mix of the most popular trads and newer songs, from about 1970 onwards.

Or try the Spring Harvest song book - great for both lively and spiritual moments.

What I really want is a book that has all the old gutbusters in, like 'Bringing in the sheaves', 'What a friend we have', 'Blessed Assurance' and 'Mine eyes have seen the glory'..... guess who likes a good stomp!

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: favourite hymn books
From: Dale Rose
Date: 21 May 00 - 04:14 PM

The one Nathan mentions is the one you want, then. You can buy Heavenly Highways at most Christian Book Stores, it should be in stock, If not, I am sure they will order it for you. They are not expensive, should cost you less than $10. You can check at barnesandnoble, too. Oh, and try to get the first edition, not the second, which is a bit more "modern."

Never heard those old gospel songs called gutbusters before, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: favourite hymn books
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 May 00 - 05:34 PM

For Protestant Hymns - Sacred Songs and Solos - Ira D. Sankey.

For Anglican Hymns, Hymns Ancient and Modern.

And for Catholic Hymns, The Westminster Hymnal.

As for modern songs in church, I'd mostly stick to Sydney Carter, Greenprint for Song, if I had my way. There are a few other decent writers of modern songs for singing in church and so forth - but most I find unspeakably depressing, especially the cheerful ones...

I think the next time we have a "What is Folk?" thread I'll say "Pretty well anything sung in church that ain't referred to as Folk")


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Subject: RE: BS: favourite hymn books
From: Mooh
Date: 21 May 00 - 05:55 PM

'Haven't seen any mention of the Cambridge Hymnal yet, and it's wonderful. FYI. Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: favourite hymn books
From: pastorpest
Date: 21 May 00 - 06:47 PM

For historical reference, I cherish my copy of the Sacred Harp: all that great shape note material.

Of modern hymn books I confess my bias (my own denomination) for "Voices United" the recent hymn book of the United Church of Canada with many folk like offerings in it.


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Subject: RE: BS: favourite hymn books
From: Cap't Bob
Date: 21 May 00 - 07:29 PM

OLDE TIME CAMP MEETIN' SONGS just a wee bit of a book but it has some real good songs.

Cap't Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: favourite hymn books
From: Mooh
Date: 21 May 00 - 09:57 PM

Pastorpest,

I rather like your new hymn book too, and I have a copy of it. The new Anglican one is good as well, but that's my bias for my own. Look in Voices United for #551, R.J.Crocker is my Dad. The cool thing about the Anglicans and Uniteds not sharing a hymn book anymore is we get a better selection with two new books.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: favourite hymn books
From: GUEST,mary g
Date: 21 May 00 - 11:06 PM

the old St. Gregory for Catholics...and you should just see or hear what they substituted for some of these great songs...

mg


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Subject: RE: BS: favourite hymn books
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 May 00 - 01:33 AM

I collect hymnals, so this thread is really interesting to me. I'm still looking for the perfect old-time gospel hymnal and the perfect old-time Catholic hymnal (St. Gregory is good, but doesn't have all the songs I sang as a kid), and haven't found them yet. A search for "hymnal" (click) at Amazon brings up an interesting list.
I sing gospel just for fun, and I sing more modern Catholic music at two Masses every Sunday. I guess I don't agree with Mary G's criticism - I think there's some pretty good stuff put out by the two main Catholic publishers, Oregon Catholic Press (formerly Catholic Truth Society of Oregon) and GIA Publications (formerly Gregorian Institute of America). I really like the Taize hymns published by GIA. Can't say I like the bouncy feel of "praise music," or the Catholic stuff that tries to emulate that style. If it sounds like it could be best accompanied by a drum machine and an electronic keyboard, I don't think it oughta be in church.
I love gospel music and I'll sing it before or after Mass, but I don't sing it during liturgy because most old-time gospel doesn't fit with Catholic theology. I guess the best gospel hymnals I've found are the ones put out by Albert E. Brumley & Sons (Brumley wrote "I'll Fly Away" and "Turn Your Radio On.") I also like Heavenly Highway Hymns, the book that Dale Rose recommended to me. Two hymnals I'm particularly fond of are The Broadman Hymnal (I think this is a predecessor of the Baptist Hymnal) and, especially, Foursquare Hymnal, complete with a picture of Aimee Semple McPherson on on of the front pages. I was amazed when I went to bookfinder.com and found out how much that Foursquare hymnal is worth (I paid $5.50) - but it's the closest I've found to a perfect gospel hymnal. Still, I think I'd like a Doyle Lawson / Emmylou Harris / Statler Brothers hymnal better.
Our choir director bought us a supplemental hymnal called Celebration Hymnal that's a real gem. It has a wide selection of (mostly traditional) interdenominational hymns, and nice arrangements.
-Joe Offer-

P.S. Looks like there's some really interesting gospel in the "choral" section at http://www.brentwood-benson.com/main.html.


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Subject: RE: BS: favourite hymn books
From: alison
Date: 22 May 00 - 02:07 AM

"Mission Praise" ... there are 3 books.... good mixture of the old favourites and new choruses..... there is another great one called "Carol Praise" (same series) with heaps of Christmas carols from all around the world.

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: BS: favourite hymn books
From: Dani
Date: 22 May 00 - 08:31 AM

Though not at all a good source for 'gospel' music, I still like our hymnal "Singing the Living Tradition", available through the Unitarian Universalist Association (uua.org) website. There's also an accompanying book with "Historical and literary facts on the hymns, tunes and readings" which, as the sources we draw on are many, would make fascinating reading. I often wander far afield when looking through the hymnal, much as I do on the 'Cat!

Can't wait to get me a copy of Heavenly Highway Hymns!

Dani


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Subject: RE: BS: favourite hymn books
From: IanC
Date: 22 May 00 - 08:47 AM

Don't seem to have seen "Songs of Praise" here yet. Probably the seminal work for folkies apart from Hymns A&M. I'm also very fond of Sankey!

Cheers!IanC


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Subject: RE: BS: favourite hymn books
From: Cap't Bob
Date: 22 May 00 - 09:36 AM

I should have mentioned that the OLDE TIME CAMP MEETIN' SONGS was by Albert E. Brumley.

Cap't Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: favourite hymn books
From: ceitagh
Date: 22 May 00 - 01:50 PM

The best Catholic hymnal i've yet to come across is the one we're currently using, the Catholic Book of Worship II. These things were put out nationally all over Canada some years ago. The choral copies have lovely harmonies, a good mix of old and newish stuff, and the best liturgical cross indexing system i've ever seen in a hymn book. The new CBW III's have even more variety, but they've taken a lot more license 'modernising' lyrics, which is annoying.

We've also got a few copies of Glory and Praise kicking around the house, and With One Voice. My dad has a collection of older and obscure hymnbooks, but they don't come out as often.

Pax,
Ceit


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Subject: RE: BS: favourite hymn books
From: GUEST,Sian in wales
Date: 22 May 00 - 04:34 PM

Ah, Sankey & Moodey! Great stuff!

I also still like the *old* United Church hymnbook. Other than that, I have a 1919 American Welsh hymnal published in Utica, originally published in 1887 for the use of Welsh Churches in North America. It notes what hymns have been added or taken out since the previous books. It's fascinating how the changes mirror the changes in the immigrant community. More use of English, additions of hymns such as a translation of My Country Tis of Thee, and use of folk tunes that aren't actually used as sacred music in Wales anymore. Great stuff for both the musician and the historian.

Sian


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Subject: Copyrighted Church Music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 May 00 - 09:04 PM

In the Gift to be Simple thread, Jon Freeman questioned why Sydney Carter would want to collect royalties for a hymn like "Lord of the Dance."
I'm an amateur church musician and I'll stay an amateur because I like the freedom of being a volunteer; but I'm very happy to be working under the direction of paid professionals, and singing music that was written by people who were paid for their work.
The issue of copyrights and church music is a sticky one. I suppose most musicians, and particularly church musicians, violate copyright laws more flagrantly than drivers violate speed limits. It's very hard to drive without breaking one law or another, and it's very hard to do music without breaking copyright law. Our pastor is deathly afraid of the copyright cops, and rightly so. Last night, I had to clean out all the photocopied music from our choir music cabinet. It broke my heart to do it, because this is much of the repertoire our choir has built up over the last 20 years - but our previous choir director relied almost completely on sheet music that he had illegally photocopied.
Now I'm going to try to sort out the best of that photocopied stuff, and see if we can get performance rights to it. It would have been much easier if we had done this sort of thing right in the first place. On the other hand, there is a lot of church music that just doesn't "work." It may look good on paper or on a recording - but once a choir has learned a piece and performed it a couple of times, they find it has no long-term value. Why should we have to pay as much for a flop, as we pay for a song we do a dozen times a year for a dozen years?
There is one big advantage to destroying all that photocopied stuff. Catholic churches are supposed to encourage congregational singing. For some reason, choir directors never seem to be interested in getting the people to sing - it's much more fulfilling to work with trained singers and turn out beautiful performances. Without photocopies, our choir directors will have to rely more on the hymnals that the people have out in the pews. If the people have the words to the songs, they may be more likely to sing.
Hey, you church musicians out there, what do you do about this? Do you prefer to use traditional material that's beyond copyright? Do you know of cheap and easy ways to get rights to materials. What about getting rights to old stuff that's no longer in print?
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: favourite hymn books
From: ceitagh
Date: 25 May 00 - 10:23 PM

Well, depending on the songs you're looking for, its possible to subscribe to a sort of 'group copyright fee' that covers a wide range of publishers. Under that sort of deal you can photocopy all the music (that fits your deal) that you want, as long as you report which songs you used so that some of your fees will go to the right people. My parish has been flirting with this, but so far we've just stuck with the hymn books.

Ceit


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Subject: RE: BS: favourite hymn books
From: Mooh
Date: 26 May 00 - 09:53 AM

Joe,

I remember my Dad writing music out to be copied in an old Gestetner machine before the days of readily available photocopiers, for use by choir and congregation. He was very adept and quick about this, having had much practice. So it brings me to wonder if it is marginally acceptable (copyright wise) to slightly reharmonise something, write it out by hand or machine and photocopy. Many churches don't always need four parts, sometimes the melody and guitar chords are enough. And other times it would be nice to hear a new arrangement of old standards, prepared by the choirmaster/organist/whoever. It sounds like alot of work, but when faced with copyright infringement laws, maybe no mountain's too high.

One gripe: churches which only have hymnbooks without music in the pews, as if the congregation isn't allowed to read music. Even a few books with music would suffice.

Thanks.

No BS. Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: favourite hymn books
From: MMario
Date: 26 May 00 - 10:11 AM

Joe - one of the fair use exemptions is for music sung as part of a worship service, so it's not so much performance rights you need, but mechanical copyright. I know churches can get blanket licenses and pay fees based on number of copies made, but don't know if retroactive is possible.


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Subject: RE: BS: favourite hymn books
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 26 May 00 - 10:30 AM

The best tongue-in-cheek "hymnal" is "Hymns for the Cerebration of Strife", which was being put out by the Dumont Press in California. This one included such old favorites as "Coffee, Coffee, Coffee", TTA "Holy, Holy, Holy." These are hymns that SHOULD have been included in any great hymnal but just missed inclusion, due to lack of space, time, or due attention on the part of the editor of the hymnal.


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Subject: RE: BS: favourite hymn books
From: Penny S.
Date: 27 May 00 - 05:56 AM

Over here, we have the blanket licence system in schools at anyrate, but it becomes very tedious and difficult, keeping track of what is used. We don't want to deny the labourer their hire, but we don't want to have to buy masses of material we aren't ever going to use, either. We've now gone down the hymnbook road - BBC Come and Praise, which has a good range of songs, but they aren't durable enough, especially book two, which is perfect bound.

It is very difficult.

My favourite two books were Songs of Praise and the Congregational Churches' Congregational Praise.

Penny


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