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Help: English Idiom Dictionary
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Subject: English Idiom Dictionary From: Ed Pellow Date: 12 Jul 00 - 02:02 PM I'm trying to find a decent online dictionary of English idioms, preferably one which gives the origin of phrases. In particular, I'm currentlly trying to find the origin of the phrase "cut off one's nose to spite one's face." Grateful for any help. Thanks. Ed |
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Subject: RE: Help: English Idiom Dictionary From: MMario Date: 12 Jul 00 - 02:36 PM there are a number - but I've never found two phrases in a row I've been looking for in the same one.
1796 Grose's Dict. Vulgar Tongue (ed. 3) |
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Subject: RE: Help: English Idiom Dictionary From: Ed Pellow Date: 12 Jul 00 - 03:23 PM MMario - thanks for that. Are the dictionaries your referring to printed ones or 'online' versions. Either way, I'd be grateful for more details. Can anyone else help? Thanks Ed |
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Subject: RE: Help: English Idiom Dictionary From: katlaughing Date: 12 Jul 00 - 03:37 PM This is the most extensive I've ever found, Ed. I think it was Gargoyle who first posted it here and it is incredible, linguistics and every language immaginable. Watch for all of the links, as there are many, just click here. This one is a dictionary of slang posted by someone else here, can't remember who. Here is a Dictionary of Phrase and Fable And, this one will take you to a Weekly Origin of Words Webzine. There is another I used to subscribe to via email. He asnwers these kinds of questions all of the time. I cannot find the bookmark. When I do, I will post it for you. what fun! kat |
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Subject: RE: Help: English Idiom Dictionary From: GUEST,Mrr Date: 12 Jul 00 - 03:39 PM I have a book called I HEAR AMERICA TALKING that also goes through the origins of phrases, alphabetically by phrase within domains, if I remember correctly. Will dust it off at home and see if I can give you better info. |
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Subject: RE: Help: English Idiom Dictionary From: Ed Pellow Date: 12 Jul 00 - 03:43 PM Kat and Mrr, Many thanks to you both - much appreciated Ed |
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Subject: RE: Help: English Idiom Dictionary From: Noreen Date: 12 Jul 00 - 04:01 PM Beaten by kat! Ed, I went searching to see if 'Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable' was available online as I used to spend hours browsing through it in the University library. Was just about to post the link... Glad I know it's there anyway and I'll enjoy looking up these others. --Noreen |
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Subject: RE: Help: English Idiom Dictionary From: katlaughing Date: 12 Jul 00 - 04:21 PM Here it is, one of the very best, IMO: Michael Quinion's World Wide Words. I also learned of it at... the Mudcat, where else!? Noreen, me'Jeri were gonna duke it out at high noon on another thread as the Speed-Link Duo, but she never answered my challenge. **BG** katlaughing |
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Subject: RE: Help: English Idiom Dictionary From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Jul 00 - 05:39 PM Is there a good source somewhere for sorting out the differences between English English and American English. I mean where the same ordinary words have significantly different meaning.
I still remember during the Louise Woodward trial, at one point the crucial issue was a clear misunderstanding about the widely divergent meaning of the words "regular" and "pop" on the two sides of the Atlantic, which the defence appeared to miss completely.
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Subject: RE: Help: English Idiom Dictionary From: katlaughing Date: 12 Jul 00 - 05:46 PM There are several slang dictionary links at that first link I put in, Kevin. Here is a direct link to the listings. Would you please give an example of how those two words were so important? I missed it. Thanks, kat |
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Subject: RE: Help: English Idiom Dictionary From: Liz the Squeak Date: 12 Jul 00 - 07:40 PM For some of the modern ones, there is always 'Rogers Profanosaurus' for those looking for the naughtier phrase. Roger is the famous Man on the Telly from Viz magazine (a rude comic book banned from many newsagents). We were given a copy of this as a present, but it has proved quite useful.... especially if you want to know what spaniels' ears are or how to lay a cable.... LTS |
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Subject: RE: Help: English Idiom Dictionary From: GUEST,Joerg Date: 12 Jul 00 - 09:10 PM !!! GREAT !!! Thank you all, especially kat/katlauging. Joerg |
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Subject: RE: Help: English Idiom Dictionary From: katlaughing Date: 12 Jul 00 - 09:13 PM Sure thing, just apssing on what someone else showed me when I asked here. Mudcatters are great, eh? |
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Subject: RE: Help: English Idiom Dictionary From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Jul 00 - 10:55 AM Well, in that case it came at one point to the prosecution asking Louise Woowdard about a meeting that had been held with the parents - and he asked something like "was it a regular meeting" and she said yes it was. And he went on about it not being "a regular meeting" and she said it was - and it was clear to people watching it over here that she was using regular in the normal English sense, in which a meeting that takes place every other Tuesday or whatever is "a regular meeting", and he was using it in American English where a regular meeting means one which isn't unusual in any way, ie not one where there's a chance you might get the sack. And the effect of this clear misunderstanding was to make Louise look as if she was being evasive and dishonest, since it wasn't a regular meeting in the American sense.
As for "pop" - well there was a bit where the police witness had said that Louise had said she dropped the child down, and she said no, she'd said she placed him down - and then in the witness box she said maybe she said she "popped him down".
And the prosecutor made a big play with the word as being an odd kind of word, and implying a degree of force. But of course in England it doesn't, it's what anybody would say when they were talking about putting a child into a cot, and just doesn't have those kind of implications. And the net effect once again was to give an impression of evasiveness and dishonesty.
The thing was, these weren't the kind of words where people are sort of aware of differences in meaning and emphasis. They were ordinary day-to-day words - "regular" you might say in american. An English lawyer and judge and jury might well have picked it up, given the amount of American TV and films they've all been expopsed to, but it seemed pretty evident that noone in that court seemed to be picking it up, including the defence. |
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Subject: RE: Help: English Idiom Dictionary From: Ringer Date: 13 Jul 00 - 01:00 PM OK: quiz time (and thread drift, too). There used to be a Music Hall song called My Jerusalem's Dead by a Cockney about his recently deceased donkey. The question is "Why is the donkey called a Jerusalem?" |
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Subject: RE: Help: English Idiom Dictionary From: Bert Date: 13 Jul 00 - 02:16 PM Just guessing here... Jerusalem artichoke - moke |
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Subject: RE: Help: English Idiom Dictionary From: Liz the Squeak Date: 13 Jul 00 - 03:59 PM Duh, because it was on a donkey that Jesus entered Jerusalem. That's the reference, it has nothing to do with rhyming slang at all. Incidentally the RE teacher at St John Cass Foundation School for Boys in London, has translated one of the gospels into rhyming slang - if there is enough interest he will go on to do more. It sounded pretty good, but there will be people who will object to John the Baptist being referred to as 'Bappy the Prophet guy'..... LTS |
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Subject: RE: Help: English Idiom Dictionary From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Jul 00 - 05:28 PM I'd go for the Jerusalem Artichoke meself. Which isn't really an artichoke at all (see see this link
I can see your man had problems finding a rhyme for Baptist and cheated. They always say "orange" is the onlt word in the English language without a rhyme, but I reckon Baptist is as bad. (And you can rhyme orange anyway.)
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Subject: RE: Help: English Idiom Dictionary From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 13 Jul 00 - 06:02 PM Orange you stretching things a little, McGrath? Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: Help: English Idiom Dictionary From: Bert Date: 13 Jul 00 - 06:04 PM When you grow up with rhyming slang you get good at recognizing it. |
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Subject: RE: Help: English Idiom Dictionary From: Ed Pellow Date: 13 Jul 00 - 06:09 PM anyone fancy tackling my original questions? thought not... |
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Subject: RE: Help: English Idiom Dictionary From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Jul 00 - 06:13 PM There was a man called Sir Frederick Gorringe, Ran a department store called Gorringe's. It was not the sort of place you could buy an orange, But you could buy a set of silver porringers.
Which is perfectly true. It was near Victoria station in London. |
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Subject: RE: Help: English Idiom Dictionary From: Bert Date: 14 Jul 00 - 12:29 PM Ed, by 'origin' I assume that you mean 'Who said it first' and I don't know that. The logic of the saying is quite obvious so I haven't looked for hidden meanings or a continuous cultural background to the saying. |
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Subject: RE: Help: English Idiom Dictionary From: catspaw49 Date: 14 Jul 00 - 01:23 PM Ya know Ed.......As I read it, your original question has been WELL answered. So now the thread just drifts as usual. I count about 8 excellent resources at least. What was it you were looking for? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Help: English Idiom Dictionary From: katlaughing Date: 14 Jul 00 - 05:54 PM My dad has always refered to the Pope as the "Holy Pappy in Rome" 'spose that could conjure up some nice rhyming... |
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Subject: RE: Help: English Idiom Dictionary From: GUEST,art Date: 15 Jul 00 - 05:46 AM dear lis the squeak there was an L.P. in the 60's (can't remember who by)telling the bible stories in jive talk. reffering to Jesus as "the Nazz"i only heard it once and had forgotten to try and find it again. this seems to be an excellent place to ask if anyone else has ever heard this album? cheers bill |
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Subject: RE: Help: English Idiom Dictionary From: Liz the Squeak Date: 15 Jul 00 - 06:37 AM The Jerusalem thing comes from the ubiquitous donkey being known as a 'Jerusalem Taxi' which isn't quite what I was told originally (humph!) but isn't rhyming slang or any sort of vegetable matter either. And artichokes are the invention of the devil. LTS |
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Subject: RE: Help: English Idiom Dictionary From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Jul 00 - 04:31 PM But as I said, Jerusalem artichokes aren't really artichokes any more than Bombay Duck is duck.
Given that the songs about a costermonger, I'd say a vegetable rhyming slang origin is more likely. But how can anyone tell these things anyway?
True, it's not in this dictionary of rhyming slang. - but that doesn't mean much. Even aside from it's being on a North Amrican website (which doesn't mean much - I've got one based simgapore), the only authority I'd trust on this is me old mate John Foreman The Broadsheet King. And he's not into the Internet.
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