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Music Theory Question

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Mary in Kentucky 11 Oct 00 - 12:07 AM
GUEST,Murray Macleod 11 Oct 00 - 12:11 AM
Mary in Kentucky 11 Oct 00 - 12:14 AM
GUEST,Luther 11 Oct 00 - 12:26 AM
GUEST 11 Oct 00 - 01:05 AM
KT 11 Oct 00 - 01:29 AM
alison 11 Oct 00 - 02:11 AM
Mary in Kentucky 11 Oct 00 - 07:15 AM
M. Ted (inactive) 11 Oct 00 - 09:56 AM
Mary in Kentucky 11 Oct 00 - 10:12 AM
Frankham 11 Oct 00 - 10:23 AM
Mark Clark 11 Oct 00 - 10:30 AM
Tiger 11 Oct 00 - 10:42 AM
Mary in Kentucky 11 Oct 00 - 11:19 AM
M. Ted (inactive) 12 Oct 00 - 11:20 AM
GUEST 12 Oct 00 - 12:03 PM
M. Ted (inactive) 12 Oct 00 - 02:34 PM
Mark Clark 12 Oct 00 - 04:35 PM
Mary in Kentucky 12 Oct 00 - 06:30 PM
M. Ted (inactive) 12 Oct 00 - 06:33 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 12 Oct 00 - 07:10 PM
Mark Clark 12 Oct 00 - 09:23 PM
GUEST,Murray Macleod 12 Oct 00 - 10:22 PM
Mark Clark 15 Oct 00 - 01:08 PM
Mark Clark 15 Oct 10 - 11:20 AM
GUEST,Grishka 15 Oct 10 - 12:03 PM
Bill D 15 Oct 10 - 12:33 PM
Joe_F 15 Oct 10 - 06:08 PM
The Fooles Troupe 15 Oct 10 - 06:56 PM
GUEST,Grishka 16 Oct 10 - 06:45 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 16 Oct 10 - 08:15 AM
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Subject: Music Theory Question
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 12:07 AM

Can anyone tell me the name of a chord which uses the I, II, IV and V tones of a major scale? Or is there a site somewhere on the net which will let you input notes and then gives you chord names?


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: GUEST,Murray Macleod
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 12:11 AM

I could guess at the name of the chord, Mary, but I bet you never anyone play that chord in Kentucky!

Murray


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 12:14 AM

Oh, but I have heard it! The best I can come up with is one chord played by the left hand and another by the right hand. Actually it sounds kinda minor diminished 7th (or 6th) something or other.


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: GUEST,Luther
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 12:26 AM

In the key of C, that would be a G7sus -- pretty ordinary chord, actually...


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 01:05 AM

Hi Mary, it's overkill to use it for just one chord but the more recent versions of Jammer Pro from Soundtrek.com will do it for any chord imaginable if it's part of a MIDI file. It's shareware and hence won't print for you, but the chord recognition part works just fine as long as there are at least three notes to recgnise. Let me lnow if you need help. Regards, John


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: KT
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 01:29 AM

I asked my piano playing friend ....he said....... "I would call it .....a G suspended. Go to the piano hit these keys....... D, F, G, C......this is with the right hand. I call it suspended....because you will hear it is "going somewhere". That's the best way to describe it. "


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: alison
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 02:11 AM

In the key of C..... start on F....C...G...D........

sounds suspended or maybe diminished 5ths... I don't remember its a long time since I did any of that analysing chords stuff...

there is a Musicians Theory Class e-group which might be able to help.

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 07:15 AM

Thanks guys, I'm not familiar with suspended chords, I'll look around for some info on that. Intuitively it really does sound like it's going somewhere.


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 09:56 AM

The chord is a G11 (with the third dropped out). For those of you who want to think of it as suspension, that is probably also right, though not necessarily right, because "suspension" is a term that refers to a situation where notes from one chord are held over into another, and then resolve.

The name of the chord really depends on what is happening in the music, so those chord naming programs usually aren't very helpful. Also, the chord naming system, as well as the basic music theory that we talk about, come from what is called the "era of common practice", which is a round-a-bout way of saying that people did things that way once, but they don't necessarily do things that way now--

There are pieces of music written today that would use Mary's chord underneath a melodic line, with no chord change--(there are a number of TV and Film scores that use this device--and I must confess that I have used it). It is a great trick to use, because the cluster has elements of both the Tonic and dominant harmony, so you have a steady, rhythmic chord, with a drone like feel, and when you use a diatonic melody, the chord will change from a C chord to a G chord, depending on what the melody note is--

I am sorry if this is confusing--Folk and pop music tends to use chords in a fairly fixed way, but if you don't have to move very far from a particular genre to encounter situations where a much broader set of rules apply, and that is where the confusion begins--


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 10:12 AM

Thanks again. I just found this link which is fairly simple, but helpful to me. M. Ted, the chord in question was used as the very first chord in an introduction, and was quite effective.


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: Frankham
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 10:23 AM

Mary,, The annswer is the Dominant 13 (add 11 and 9. For example in the key of G:

GBD are the 1,3,5 of the chord if G is the root (I)

F is the flatted seventh that spells out the dominant seventh.

A is the ninth.

C is the eleventh (4 + (b)7th.

E is the thirteenth.

Hence, within that chord you have GBD (tonic)

NOw here's how it has to work. You have to be in the key of C. G is the dominant chord.

GBD is the V chord. FAC is the IV chord. DFA is the II (minor chord) CEG the I chord is the top part of the sequence (called a chord family). It's the 11th, 13th and the root of the chord found in the next octave.

It can be diagrammed like this.

1,3,5,(b)7,9,11,13 and the repeat of 1 in the next octave.

135 in the key of C if G is the root is the V chord. (GBD)

5,(b)7,9 is the II chord DFA

(b)7,9,11 is the IV chord (FAC)

11,13 and the 1 (root in the next octave) is the I chord (CEG)

The question is how are you going to apply this information?

Dick Grove's jazz arrangement classes use the method of chord families to derive triads (three-note chords) out of one big long chord such as G13 (add 11 and 9).

This is more information than you probably wanted to know but hope it helps.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: Mark Clark
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 10:30 AM

Mary, I just noticed this thread and it looks as though you already have your answer but, for the record, I agree with M. Ted; It's an eleventh chord. Never mind that the third and seventh are missing. Most modern chords on guitar turn out to be partial chords, usually some inversion other than the theoretical spelling.

I think from now on I'll just ask M. Ted directly about questions of theory. His explanation is great. I nominate M. Ted as official Mudcat Theoretician.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: Tiger
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 10:42 AM

Take a look at:

http://www.opgc.com/software.htm

for a whole bunch of shareware and demo programs. For years I've used an old DOS program called Chord Magic that does exactly what you said. It's available at that site.

Most of these programs are far more advanced than that, they'll do everthing but make the coffee. Give 'em a try.


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 11:19 AM

One more *simple* question. How would I notate (presumably for guitar tab) this chord as I see it (and hear it) in a piano midi which has what looks like to me an F chord in the left hand and a G chord in the right hand?

Left hand down low: F & C
Right hand up high: G & D

When played like this it has as M. Ted said a drone-like feel. But can a guitar do this?


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 11:20 AM

You are jumping into difficult territory, Mary--

The reason is because the voicings that are natural on piano cannot often be duplicated on the guitar, and when they can, they are often not playable--For this reason, you pretty much have to write your guitar arrangements from scratch--

My favorite comment in this regard is from Barney Kessel, who said, "It takes two great guitarists to play what one mediocre pianist can play"

I would add, or one great guitarist and a great arranger--

I am not sure if you want a fingering that includes all of the notes in an F chord and a C chord, or if you just want the notes that you have listed--

Here are two fingerings that will give you the notes you listed--The first inverts the D and the G, the second takes more fingers, but gives you the G with the D above it-- (The first number is the fret you play on the fat, Low E string, the second is on the A, etc--"O" is open, "X" means you don't play it)

1-3-O-O-X-X 1-3-X-O-3-X

However, the fingers and voicing may not fit smoothly with the rest of you arrangement--In that case, I think that you need to consider finding some other voicing that gives you the flavor, but not necessarily the notes--

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Mark--do I get an office with that title? How about just a parking place?


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 12:03 PM

Tony Burns posted this freeware linkchord naming program a long time ago. I use it all the time.

In case the blue clickie no workie... www.helsinki.fi/~saarnio/


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 02:34 PM

This might be easier to read:

E A D G D E 1-3-O-O-X-X

E A D G B E 1-3-X-O-3-X


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: Mark Clark
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 04:35 PM

Oh, great. I'm off writing a response to M. Ted and Frank drops in a dissenting opinion before I can post. What's more, his looks pretty authoritative as well. So how is the difference of opinion to be resolved?

Mary didn't start out giving us any key to work from so I assumed when she said I, II, IV, V she was implying that the root of the chord (I) was also the tonic note of the key.

Frank, I don't understand. Why are you talking about the 13th? Is that another missing note from the implied chord? I figured that IV translated to the 11th but didn't see anything in Mary's question to cause me to think 13th. That's probably a result of not having any formal theory classes. And why does it have to be in C? Can't Mary's chord stand in the same key as the root of the chord?

Thanks,

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 06:30 PM

Don't anybody look at this who is remotely interested in learning something. I've probably screwed this up beyond any logical reasoning. Just remember, I am not a musician. What I was trying to do was write out the chords for beachcomber for this midi, Look to the Rainbow. It's in the key of Db, and the chord (or four notes in question) are Ab, Db, Bb, & Eb. When I posed my question, I thought I would "simplify" the key and transpose the notes. This is where I was probably illegal...I looked at those four notes clumped close together (Ab, Bb, Db, & Eb) and observed that they were the I, II, IV, V tones of the major scale starting on Ab. That's where my question came from. I hope I didn't cause too much grief, but I've learned a little about music theory, so from my perspective, all is not in vain. When I was in college, I was not allowed to take a music theory class as an elective because I was not a music major. I intend to check out the chord finder program mentioned above from Tony Burns via GUEST. Thanks everyone.


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 06:33 PM

Frank one of Mudcat's more illustrious members--he is one of the final arbiters in many questions about folk, popular and traditional music an he has a good understanding of many ideas on music theory--When he expresses a view that is different than mine, I always make a careful reconsideration of my own point of view--

When I miss the mark, I always try to correct it as quickly as I can--but I didn't--so I won't--


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 07:10 PM

Ok, the next exercise is to analyse 20th century organ music into chords. (Well actually, 19th and even 18th century organ music would be quite a headache.) You ain't heard suspensions till you've heard Messian and Hindemith and that crowd.

Which sets me wondering,what other instruments allow you to hold notes more or less permanently, or until the power supply fails?


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: Mark Clark
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 09:23 PM

Well if the key is Db and the root of Mary's chord is also Db, then it looks a lot like an inversion of a partial Db13; the 3rd and the Dominant 7 are missing. Did I get that right?

Next question... The Bb could be the 13th or it could be the 6th. Now I've seen references to 6/9 (six-ninth) chords. What's the deal with those and could Mary's chord also be called a Db6/9?

Thanks,

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: GUEST,Murray Macleod
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 10:22 PM

Mary, it is too easy to get bogged down in analysis of what chords are called. I play once a week as a solo performer and once as a accompanist to a fiddle player. Within this repertoire I am conscious of playing combinations of notes which fit the melody at the time of playing, but which would suffer from any heavy -handed attempt to annotate the names of the chords. Many so -called "chords" are simply "passing notes". I know this sounds musically illiterate, but I can't explain it any other way.

Murray


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: Mark Clark
Date: 15 Oct 00 - 01:08 PM


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: Mark Clark
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 11:20 AM

Ten years to the day since this thread last came up and Frank still hasn't answered my question.   <VERY BIG GRIN>

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 12:03 PM

In a Jazz/Pop environment, the notion "suspended fourth" is virtually always (ab)used for this kind of chord. "11" would indicate the 11th being added (like the 7th and 9th - optionally), whereas it actually replaces the third.

Other interpretations are possible if we assume another note to be the root. This is only legitimate if strongly suggested by the harmonic context.

Modern theorists (since 1950) therefore abandonned the whole idea of harmonic analysis. A chord indication should help the musicians a) to play the chord and b) to grasp the harmonic implications if there are any, deducing the "scale" in which to improvise.

For what it's worth,
Grishka (not a theorist)


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 12:33 PM

In the "Key of R", that would be played with the elbows...


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: Joe_F
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 06:08 PM

Sounds like a dis-chord to me.


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 06:56 PM

QUOTE
Many so -called "chords" are simply "passing notes"
UNQUOTE

Perfectly literate from a music theory viewpoint. But your theory has to incorporate the concepts of two different music styles - one which took hold in medieval Europe of monks singing and later on which had a strong vertical harmony, and the other older style still practiced in the Orient, which involves only a horizontal run of melodies contrasted against each other. It can be awkward to try to meld the two concepts, and still get rational 'chord names'.


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 06:45 AM

A chord in our context is a symbol in the sheet music, by which the players are told which notes to play for accompaniment and which scale to use for any improvised melody. Thus the "passing notes" may follow the chord.

In other words: Chords are practical in some styles of music that include improvisation, or as a shorthand notation for guitarists, accordionists etc.

Harmonic analysis of, say, a Beethoven string quartet is quite a different matter.


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Subject: RE: Music Theory Question
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 08:15 AM

I haven't read all the above, but one would need more info than given in the first posting; for example, is the major scale referred to, the tonic scale? If it is, then I would call the chord a major sus4th added 9th; however, some posters are calling it a dominant chord but such chords aren't built on the 1st degree of a major scale.


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