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Jane Fonda's exploits, please read

Banjer 08 Dec 00 - 04:18 AM
Michael in Swansea 08 Dec 00 - 05:27 AM
GeorgeH 08 Dec 00 - 06:24 AM
mkebenn 08 Dec 00 - 06:28 AM
Greg F. 08 Dec 00 - 07:10 AM
Kim C 08 Dec 00 - 10:10 AM
Mrrzy 08 Dec 00 - 10:19 AM
Wesley S 08 Dec 00 - 10:26 AM
Rick Fielding 08 Dec 00 - 10:39 AM
katlaughing 08 Dec 00 - 10:56 AM
Midchuck 08 Dec 00 - 11:04 AM
Seth 08 Dec 00 - 01:00 PM
Troll 08 Dec 00 - 01:10 PM
Songster Bob 08 Dec 00 - 01:23 PM
Troll 08 Dec 00 - 01:38 PM
Rick Fielding 08 Dec 00 - 01:58 PM
Mrrzy 08 Dec 00 - 02:03 PM
Alice 08 Dec 00 - 02:04 PM
Bat Goddess 08 Dec 00 - 02:05 PM
Susan-Marie 08 Dec 00 - 02:42 PM
Midchuck 08 Dec 00 - 02:52 PM
GUEST,Big Mick 08 Dec 00 - 03:23 PM
Greg F. 08 Dec 00 - 04:18 PM
Troll 08 Dec 00 - 06:03 PM
mousethief 08 Dec 00 - 06:11 PM
Margo 08 Dec 00 - 06:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Dec 00 - 06:50 PM
Banjer 08 Dec 00 - 06:54 PM
Barry Finn 08 Dec 00 - 07:29 PM
Dave Wynn 08 Dec 00 - 07:34 PM
Troll 08 Dec 00 - 07:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Dec 00 - 08:48 PM
catspaw49 08 Dec 00 - 10:37 PM
Sorcha 08 Dec 00 - 11:00 PM
katlaughing 09 Dec 00 - 12:30 AM
Troll 10 Dec 00 - 01:47 AM
GUEST 10 Dec 00 - 01:42 PM
Rick Fielding 10 Dec 00 - 02:19 PM
GUEST,JTT 10 Dec 00 - 02:37 PM
katlaughing 10 Dec 00 - 02:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Dec 00 - 03:51 PM
Banjer 10 Dec 00 - 05:01 PM
Barry Finn 10 Dec 00 - 05:16 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Dec 00 - 06:21 PM
Joe Offer 10 Dec 00 - 09:24 PM
Midchuck 10 Dec 00 - 09:48 PM
Big Mick 10 Dec 00 - 11:16 PM
Seth 10 Dec 00 - 11:24 PM
Jeri 11 Dec 00 - 09:37 AM
Troll 11 Dec 00 - 10:17 AM
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Subject: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Banjer
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 04:18 AM

I recently received this in e-mail. It was written by a Proffesor of Music at the Southwestern Oklahoma State University. Since it is a puportedly a firsthand account from someone in the field of music, I felt it was relevant to this forum. I did edit out all the various forwarded to addresses to make it easier to read. I am usually not given to mass mailings but I did feel this was important enough to share with as many as possible. Thanks for your indulgence!

This is a very sad time of our lives. With today being Pearl Harbor Day, we remember such things. Forward if you wish. Bev Note: forwarded message attached.

=====

__________________________________________________

Jon and I met Col. Bud Day, an internee at the Hanoi Hilton during the Jane Fonda visit to Vietnam. His hands still shake, he still suffers from night terrors, and his life is tormented today by her "good intentioned" visit to Hanoi. Please boycott Ladies Home Journal, and send this along to all you can. Thanks, The Halls

.

I urge everyone to make your voice heard one way or another.

Write a letter, forward this e-mail, or simply don't buy this magazine!

If you dont remember her trash, maybe this will remind you. If you want to see more about this wonderful person, go to this website: http://www.moorej.org/jane/

The first address above is the address of the Ladies Home Journal (Who selected Jane for this honor.) Please stop this MADNESS!

Jane Fonda is being honored as one of the "100 Women of the Century." Unfortunately many have forgotten and still countless others have never known how Ms. Fonda betrayed not only the idea of our country but specific men who served and sacrificed during Vietnam. Part of my conviction comes from personal exposure to those who suffered her attentions. The first part of this is from an F-4E pilot. The pilot's name is Jerry Driscoll, a River Rat. In 1978, the former Commandant of the USAF Survival School was a POW in Ho Lo Prison-the "Hanoi Hilton." Dragged from a stinking cesspit of a cell, cleaned, fed, and dressed in clean PJs, he was ordered to describe for a visiting American "Peace Activist" the "lenient and humane treatment" he'd received. He spat at Ms. Fonda, was clubbed, and dragged away. During the subsequent beating, He fell forward upon the camp Commandant's feet, which sent that officer berserk. In '78, the AF Col. still suffered from double vision (which permanently ended his flying days) from the Vietnamese Col.'s frenzied application of a wooden baton. From 1983-85, Col. Larry Carrigan was in the 47FW/DO (F-4Es). He spent 6 years in the "Hilton"- the first three of which he was "missing in action". His wife lived on faith that he was still alive. His group, too, got the cleaned/fed/clothed routine in preparation for a "peace delegation" visit. They, however, had time and devised a plan to get word to the world that they still survived. Each man secreted a tiny piece of paper, with his SSN on it, in the palm of his hand. When paraded before Ms. Fonda and a cameraman, she walked the line, shaking each man's hand and asking little encouraging snippets like: "Aren't you sorry you bombed babies?" and "Are you grateful for the humane treatment from your benevolent captors?" Believing this HAD to be an act, they each palmed her their sliver of paper. She took them all without missing a beat. At the end of the line and once the camera stopped rolling, to the shocked disbelief of the POWs, she turned to the officer in charge.... and handed him the little pile of papers. Three men died from the subsequent beatings. Col.Carrigan was almost number four but he survived, which is the only reason we know about her actions that day. I was a civilian economic development advisor in Vietnam, and was captured by the North Vietnamese communists in South Vietnam in 1968, and held for over 5 years. I spent 27 months in solitary confinement, one year in a cage in Cambodia, and one year in a black box" in Hanoi. My North Vietnamese captors deliberately poisoned and murdered a female missionary, a nurse in a leprosarium in Ban me Thuot, South Vietnam, whom I buried in the jungle near the Cambodian border. At one time, I was weighing approximately 90 lbs. (My normal weight is 170 lbs.) We were Jane Fonda's "war criminals." When Jane Fonda was in Hanoi, I was asked by the camp communist political officer if I would be willing to meet with Jane Fonda. I said yes, for I would like to tell her about the real treatment we POWs were receiving, which was far different from the treatment purported by the North Vietnamese, and parroted by Jane Fonda, as"humane and lenient." Because of this, I spent three days on a rocky floor on my knees with outstretched arms with a large amount of steel placed on my hands, and beaten with a bamboo cane till my arms dipped. I had the opportunity to meet with Jane Fonda for a couple of hours after I was released. I asked her if she would be willing to debate me on TV. She did not answer me. This does not exemplify someone who should be honored as part of "100 Years of Great Women." Lest we forget..."100 years of great women" should never include a traitor whose hands are covered with the blood of so many patriots. There are few things I have strong visceral reactions to, but Hanoi Jane's participation in blatant treason, is one of them.

Please take the time to forward to as many people as you possibly can. It will eventually end up on her computer and she needs to know that we will never forget.

Charles (Skip) Klingman Asst. Professor of Music Southwestern Oklahoma State University Weatherford, OK 73096 (580) 774-3219 FAX


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Michael in Swansea
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 05:27 AM

Bloody hell!


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: GeorgeH
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 06:24 AM

Jane Fonda oppose an unjust and unnecessary war, and commited far greater evil than their opponents (in terms of the numbers it was visited on . . I'm not going to attempt any gradation of act of evil).

This is not, in any way, to criticise who served in the war. All those who serve their country, and suffer in that service, deserve our respect and admiration. As do those who, following their conscience, either refuse the call to engage in acts of war, or actively oppose such acts.

It saddens me to see Banjer opening this line of discussion at a point where the thread noting the aniversary of Pearl Harbour is revealing common ground between people of widely differing political etc. views.

G.


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: mkebenn
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 06:28 AM

I was agin' the war, but for my country's servicemen, not their doin'. Glad she's suffering in poverty now,,shit. MB


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 07:10 AM

Since it is a puportedly a firsthand account from someone in the field of music

Oh, please!

I assume Banjer posted this garbage as an attempt at humor- though the joke is in admittedly poor taste. Then again, there are those who are still in vociferous denial about the Vietnam experience after more than a quarter century.

We get enough of this crap in the tabloids- shame we have to see it here as well.

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Kim C
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 10:10 AM

As Americans we do have the right to protest. But I have always wondered, what is the fine line between protest and treason? It wasn't just that she was protesting the war, but deliberately trying to crush the morale of the soldiers, and I can't abide that. These are people who have to follow orders and endure adverse living conditions and DIE for whatever purpose is at hand.


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 10:19 AM

I am sure that Banjer was sincere. If he felt he had to relate it to music to post here, bully for him - I woulda just posted it. Yes, she opposed an unjust war. No, the way she did it ought not to be forgotten or considered OK.

Speaks someone basically untouched by that war, you may consider I have no "right" to an opinion, but being mean to Banjer for feeling this stronly isn't the right response. If you feel the thread inappropriate, click Back and don't post. IM(NS)HO.


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Wesley S
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 10:26 AM

Let me start off by saying that I have no idea if the story is true or false. But I will say that I've had this story sent to me several times by co-workers of mine. Even though I like these people as friends I'm not sure that I would believe anything they send me as an E-mail. These are the same people that also send me all kinds of urban legends. If they told me the sun was going to come up in the east I would feel compelled to go out and check.So I have some doubt as to the accuracy of this story - mostly because of where I've seen it before. I hope someone has a chance to look into this one.


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 10:39 AM

I have no idea what the motivation for starting this thread was, but from long experience here I know Banjer to be an honourable and respected Mudcat friend. (and remember, I'm a lefty)

Can I introduce one personal opinion about that fine actress Jane, though? I've seen her interviewed so many times, and the passion she inspires is STRICTLY from her celebrity. There were many hugely commited protesters during that time who went to Hanoi. Some, when interviewed, during and after, presented articulate and well thought out historically based arguements. Jane Fonda was (and is) NOT A BRAIN SURGEON! She's super-wealthy, super-famous, and should not be taken more seriously than the most humble civilian. Yes, her celebrity focused attention on the issue, but I think she's taken all too seriously. There are lots of people you can get really mad at, if you feel that visits to Hanoi were traitorous, but Jane seems like a lightweight to me.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 10:56 AM

Thank you, Rick. I am sure Banjer was sincere in posting this. He is a good and honourable friend.

I agree with you about Fonda.

kat


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Midchuck
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 11:04 AM

"Barbarella" was Jane's finest hour. It's all been downhill from there.

IMO.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Seth
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 01:00 PM

As a veteran of this particular conflict, I say anyone who was against the war, for whatever reason, lightweight or heavy, they were on my side. Anyone who was promotin'it,for whatever reason, was out to get my ass shot off. Robert McNamara said in his book that he knew that the war couldn't be won as early as 1966. He was someone who had the power to stop it, but he didn't. Apparently, there was some geo-political rationale for this. Of course, in the next nine years, 50,00 Americans and God knows how many Vietnamese died. Last thing I heard, he was walkin' around like a free man. Jane Fonda was kind of a bimbo actress who tried to do something real. Professionaly, she had nothing to gain and everything to lose by what she did. She went ahead and did it anyway. Made a lot of people mad. The war is over. If she has blood on her hands, it's a lot less than many of us. She moved on. The Vietnamese moved on. Time for all of us to move on.

Seth from China


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Troll
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 01:10 PM

Banjer, I have seen the informantion you have received. It is only partially accurate. I have read the statements of some of the officers involved. I'm sorry I don't recall the site right now but if I do I will post it.
This should, in no way, be construed as approval of the actions of jane Fonda, Ramsey Clark and their companions. While they had the right to protest the war, the lengths to which they took that protest bordered on the treasonable in my opinion.
They gave aid and comfort to an enemy who was -rightly or wrongly- killing their countrymen.
There are those who lost fathers, brothers, sons, daughters or friends in Viet Nam. The right or wrong doesn't matter to them. Their loved one was dieing while Fonda was posing on an anti-aircraft gun in a photo-op in Hanoi.
Those who took to the streets in protest knew that they could be gassed, beaten, and/or arrested but they went anyway. I respect them for it. They put themselves on the line.
Jane Fonda and her friends went to Hanoi knowing that they ran little risk. Their money and influential friends would protect them from prosecution and that's what happened.
She gets no respect in this country for what she did. She gets contempt and hatred.
Greg. There are still people in England in "vociferous denial" about the firebombing of Dresden and thats been over fifty years ago.
I am not surprised that you mentioned the tabloids since that seems to be where most of your information about America comes from. McGraths posts show at least some desire for knowledge while yours are mostly flame.
I will not argue the justification or lack of same for the Viet Nam War. I will only say that it affected a lot of us deeply .
You enter this arena at your own risk.

troll

I spoke to Skeptic before posting this. He is out of town for the weekend ( a CAMPING trip?) but will post on Monday if the thread is still alive.

troll


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Songster Bob
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 01:23 PM

Oh, please! This thing -- the "100 women" thing -- was first posted some THREE YEARS AGO, and it's been kicking around ever since. I don't even know which "100 women" poll or list was involved, or even if there was such a list. Trolls such as this inflame old passions to NO GOOD USE. What the hell did we live through the 60s and 70s for, to just bust each others' chops because of what well-intentioned (or even ill-intentioned) folks did 30 years ago?

And they take our attention away from real problems and risks of the day, such as stealing elections. I sometimes wonder if some of this isn't intentional. I wonder if some of the Republican "horror" at Bill Clinton's extra-marital antics wasn't pure calculation, designed to make sure that the next Democratic candidate would distance himself as far as possible from one of the most savvy and successful politicians of the century. And it worked.

We're being taken in, folks! Note that I say this now so I can say "I told you so!" in the unfortunately not-so-distant future.

Bob Clayton


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Troll
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 01:38 PM

Seth. I'm glad you were able to move on. There are many who cannot. It's not that they don't want to, they CAN'T.

troll


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 01:58 PM

I think it's "THE WAY" the Governments have "moved on" that may gall a lot of people on both sides of the issue. A friend of mine just returned from Vietnam, and describes it more like a Yankee dollar-hungry tourist mecca than anything else. Bring on MacDonald's (with the chicken heads)

'Course what else is new? Remember the kid in front of the tanks in Tiennamin Square? Governments don't. It's simply the rule of bucks. T'is why I'll NEVER have respect for authority, elected or appointed. I'll do just enough to stay outta jail...but the rest of my life will be how I decide it will be.

My my, HEAVY morning, ain't it?

Rick


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 02:03 PM

Well, I feel better jumping in to defend Banjer when I really have no say about Vietnam, at least!


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Alice
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 02:04 PM

Here is the Ladies Home Journal article listing all 100 women.click here to read Article I am no fan of Jane Fonda. Jane Fonda on the same list with Anne Frank and Marie Curie? Give me a break. Fonda is in the section of "Artists and Entertainers". Madonna is also included, with the description "Entertainer who is a master at marketing herself." They didn't seem to stretch very far to think of significant female artists and entertainers of the 20th century.


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 02:05 PM

BTW, I believe she apologised years ago, not for the protest, but for the way she went about it, and said her attempt was misguided. Last I heard, even the VFW and American Legion had forgiven her.

Bat Goddess


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Susan-Marie
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 02:42 PM

A couple of weeks ago I stumbled on to a web site of messages from special forces vets looking for former friends, officers, etc. One of the messages contained the story Banjer posted. At least a dozen people posted messages refuting that story, saying that although they had no love for Jane Fonda, these Vietnam vets knew for a fact that the story was fabricated. Sorry I can't find the web site again so you can read it for yourself....


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Midchuck
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 02:52 PM

Oh, they couldn't let them post it on the web if it weren't true!...

Peter.


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: GUEST,Big Mick
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 03:23 PM

"When will they ever learn?......when will they ever learn......"

Those of you kicking Banjer need to do some research.......he is one of our finest Mudcatters, who happens to hold strong views.....based on experience.........with regard to this conflict. He and I don't necessarily agree on this issue, but he is a fine man and a great Mudcatter.

To those from other countries that choose to use every opportunity you can to tell us poor colonials what is wrong with us......and further to tell us we don't really understand about "the troubles", or our motives, or whatever........I suggest that you follow your own advice. There are no easy answers with regard to this conflict, or this period in World History. We are in denial? Maybe. Any more so than the English Government is about the north of Ireland? I don't think so. And Dresden has already been mentioned. How about Japan and the Korean "comfort women"? Aussies and the Aboriginals? Shall we go on? The point is ..............give it a break, willya? Jane Fonda was, during that time, the same as many of us. She was faced with a situation that was beyond her frame of reference. There we were, raised by WWII vets, on a steady diet of 50's era patriotism and jingoism, with the implicit understanding that we had to save the world if called upon. Our parents taught us that our job was to preserve and export "the American Way of life" to the great unwashed. We were to help "those people" so that, God Bless 'Em, they could be like us. Then comes the conflict and it is nothing like what we had been raised for. No clear cut issue, no Normandy Beachhead, no Gold Star Mom's, no parades coming home, no exit strategy..........and folks calling us baby killers, etc. Some folks sucked it up and went off, even if they had reservations. Some folks resisted. Some left the country. The point is everyone made decisions. Do I like what Fonda did? No, in fact I hate the actions she took, even if I agreed that we needed to get out. But Jane Fonda, to me, was a tool. She was being used. One of the things that old age, and a lifetime spent in several "movements" has taught me is that whether you are on the right, or on the left, there is always some messiah like figure who has an agenda. They have become easy for me to spot, usually by there rhetoric. They are the ones who use "for the good of the cause" to justify any type of action that needs to be done in their opinion. I have learned that, as followers, we have the greatest obligation of all. Because we are the ones to listen to this and make a judgement if the action is indeed "for the good of the cause" or if it is for the good of the messiah like person. We choose who to follow. In the first half of the twentieth century there were two leaders. Both had charisma. Both could cause masses of people to do their bidding by simply suggesting that it be done for the common good. Both suffered for their positions. One was named Hitler, and the other was named Ghandi.

I guess the point of this ramble is to say to Banjer........Brother, it is time to let it go. So much pain.......let it go. She was a kid herself, and being manipulated. And I think she knows it. And I guess I would say to those that would villify Banjer and the U.S. in general.......Brothers and Sisters, let it go. Too much pain..........let it go. Our nation, in the relative age of the world, is just a kid. We have done much good.....and much bad........but our heart is right, we are your cousins......and this place(the Internet and the Mudcat) makes us close. Let's cut the finger pointing bullshit, and just examine the history of the world we live in, for the lessons it has to teach. And continue to strive for, even if unattainable, peace, and understanding. The children of this place deserve that we act so.

Big Mick


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 04:18 PM

Apologies- I did not and do not mean to kick Banjer personally, but to condemn posting and perpetuating this sort of tabloid crap before at least doing some rudimentary reality checking. There's more than enough on-line garbage without adding to the pile.

Troll old bud, I'm born & raised in the good old US of A, tho why my national origin should matter to you at all is anyone's guess. I'm more than old enough to remember Viet Nam first hand. And lets not get into a pissing contest about "who reads more newspapers", OK? Or who has a greater background in & knowledge of American history. You'd probably lose.
"You enter this arena at your own risk."???
What the hell's that? Some sort of schoolyard threat? Jesus.

And Jane Fonda gets MY respect and that of many others for a deal- if not all- of what she did.

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Troll
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 06:03 PM

Mick, thanks for trying to point out that Jane Fonda was used. She was but she was a willing participant in giving aid and comfort to those who were killing American servicemen and women. She had a right to protest but not to do what she did. So she apologized. I'm sure that is a real comfort to the families of the dead.
I cannot forgive her nor can I forget the men and women on both sides who died . The actions of she and her fellows may very well have prolonged the war by giving Hanoi a potent propoganda devise-famous Americans protesting the war IN HANOI! With photos.
And then She went back to Beverly Hills and the round of chic parties that followed.
She and her apologists have my contempt for what it's worth.Let those who wish to respect her do so. It's their right.
But they must think that all the Americans who have died to protect that right were real fools.

troll


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 06:11 PM

Boy, Troll, remind me never to get on your bad side. What did that guy from Nazareth say? "If you do not forgive others, neither will your heavenly father forgive you..."?

Alex


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Margo
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 06:30 PM

This "Urban Legend" Site says that this particular email that is circulating mixes fact with fiction.... here's the url http://urbanlegends.about.com/science/urbanlegends/library/weekly/aa110399.htm. I find this site comes in handy, Margo


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 06:50 PM

Big Mick's right.Let it go.

Terrible things are done in war, by both sides. Collectively the Vietnamese suffered far far more than the Americans, and it's still going on today with mines going off, and children being born damaged by Agent Orange.

It appears that Vietnamese people have shown that they are willing to turn away from vengeance and recriminmation. And so have many many Americans, including especially many veterans who have been back to visit or to work there, and help heal the wounds.

All big countries have done things like that, and at the time it seems like a good idea, and good people get wasted in the process. Some good people did bad things. Good GIs, good Viet Cong, good War Resisters. And there were good reasons for it, mixed in with not so good reasons.

Stirring it over in a spirit of vengeance doesn't help. Nor does turning away and forgetting. Trying to understand what happened and why it all happened as part of a process of reconciliation, that makes sense.


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Banjer
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 06:54 PM

Very good...If nothing else my posting of the "garbage" e-mail has opened a discussion. The main reason I put it here is because of the author. He claims to be a proffessor of music. One of us, in a manner of speaking. He also included a fax number that could be used if one were inclined to contact him and validate this story. My reason for posting it was not to start a large political debate, although maybe it would take our mind off our election for a while. ;-)

I thank all those who have responded with their opinions, whether pro or con, for as those who have been around this cybercommunity for a while know, all opinions are respected and while some of us may tend to disagree, we do so amicably. I feel no animosity towards any one who does not share my opinions. Instead I respect them even that much more for standing up for what THEY feel is right.


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Barry Finn
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 07:29 PM

Thanks Banjer
I'm really pleased that you find this something of interest & that you're glad it got some healthy discussion about it going. My brother probably would think it grand too had he been left with something to think with instead of something to drink with. I hated this war for for my myself, my brother, my family, my friend (mostly the ones that are still there in body or souly) & for my country & dispised the powers that had us there & kept us there. You're right some can't let it go & some still think that God was on our side had we had more that cared more for our soldiers than our glory maybe less would've been left out in the field. Earl's brother Barry


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 07:34 PM

I dunno about the veracity of the Jane Fonda thing...Or the way we Brits should give Ireland back to the Irish (when you Americans give America back to the native American perhaps)But I sure as shit know that if Barbarella is Jane Fonda's finest hour then I rate it as crap with tit's and it isn't an Oscar performance....!! I think we should let Fonda do her slimming thing and welcome. Spot.


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Troll
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 07:34 PM

Alex. Perhaps your God does not condone vengance.
Mine does.

troll


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 08:48 PM

"Vengeance is mine" says the lord - makes sense; let it go. "Eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" and everyone ends up blind and toothless. (And in any case America is way way ahead of Vietnam on the eye and tooth score.)

"Brits should give Ireland back to the Irish" - Spot, it's been Irish all the time. There's a quarrel between two lots of Irish, and the English have stirred it from time to time, and poked their nose in from time to time, and even been reluctantly pulled into it from time to time. And so have other people sometimes. But it's always an Irish quarrel, and it'll be settled sooner or later between the Irish.


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 10:37 PM

There are times when being off the 'Cat for awhile and then returning is cathartic.......sometimes not.

I gotta' write that play...............

Almost two years ago in another VietNam thread, we began to see the broad experiences of the times that were living right here at the 'Cat. From the words of myself and others, there is a cross section of experiences, all deeply felt, that encompasses the American experience of VietNam. More players have entered the scene since and many of us have repeatedly told our stories. Now, with most of us at the half-century mark age range, we have come together in a strange feeling of companionship. Some are still bitter in many ways, but most are mellowed and saddened and want to remember lest others forget.

Some are still in that place, that time, and can never move on because of it. Some have moved on and wish only to let it become history. Most are somewhere in between in a sort of no-man's land because those times and that war colored our lives in a way we cannot escape.

Most of us here came from essentially middle class, middle America, the offspring of parents who had fought and worked hard in the cause of a clearly defined war. We watched John Wayne in "Sands of Iwo Jima" and listened to the stories of the adults who had been there. We learned of heroes and poltroons and we believed in the sacrifices made in the name of freedom. One day we began to hear of a place where we too would be tested and honored. At 18 or so we were the product of Davy Crockett and Ira Hayes. But it was a different time, the world had changed, the news told of strange things which didn't mesh with what we thought we knew.

Realizations came at different times and in different ways to different people, and suddenly, we were no longer kids. We were forced to become adults and not always thinking ones. No matter where you stood, you were still a pawn in someone's game and the damned thing was, you were still trying to figure out the squares on the board. And what was the problem with those damn squares anyway? They were supposed to be black or white weren't they? They used to be! Now, somehow they had all changed to various and varying shades of gray. We moved about as best we could and by the best lights we could muster. And so it was...............

Ten people sit on a blackened stage. Above and behind them play the classic home movie clips of a 50's childhood. As the movies play, a single spot lights each as they tell a similar story that melds together almost as one so you can see these are all the same folks, from the same places, from the same history, in the same time. The movie carries on to teen clips and the story begins to unfold. Each of the ten begins to alternately tell their tale in that time. The movie shows clips of the late 60's, the war in both heroic and tragic scenes, the protests back home.....an entire panorama of the times as each story unfolds. Each of stories comes from the words written here and the characters on stage include soldiers, male and female, who came into the war with different ideas and out of the war with varying outcomes, a man who didn't have to go because of the draft lottery and has mixed emotions, a man who went to jail for refusing induction, a girlfriend left behind.........Ten stories that show well the result. And ten people now grown old who are willing to let it go, yet they cannot forget.........bonded forever from the times in which they lived.

Banjer, my fine friend, thank you for the posting. Good or bad or true or false of somewhere in between.....it matters not a whit. Sometimes we all just have to talk about it.......lest others forget.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Dec 00 - 11:00 PM

Oh Pat, you made me cry again, you old curmudgeon, you. You better write that play........even if it hurts. It all still does, even if "we" have moved on and "let it go".

I was sitting here, reading this, and thinking of the 2nd Great War......and how things were written in stone, then, in our father's times.....and how my father so loved the Japanese culture and people.....even their Bushido, because bushido has a real reason behind it....written in stone, huh? The only thing my dad ever really wanted that he didn't get to do was to go back to Japan, and see Kyoto, and find out if "Mr. Bear" (whoever he was.........?) was still alive.

War is hell, my friends, on all sides, and I only hope none of our children ever have to go there........

VietNam was the watershed of most of our lives. Sad, but true. All of us have, really, only one story to tell; for most of us over 40, that story is somehow related to VietNam. In another 50 years or less, those of us who personally experienced the pain will be gone, just like the veterans of Germany, Japan, Africa, France and Italy are gone now.

All that will be left is stories, so let us tell our stories as best as we know how. Lest We Forget.....what we cannot remember, we are doomed to repeat.

(My question: How can a generation remember what they did not experience? Thus, the sad cycle....)

With all due Respect for everyone on every side.....
Sorcha


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Dec 00 - 12:30 AM

Sorcha is right, Spaw, write the play, darlin'...

and, thanks Banj for coming back. Love and respect to you all...

luvyakat


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Troll
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 01:47 AM

'Spaw, thank you.Your eloquence expressed things that I cannot. I stand in your debt.

troll


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 01:42 PM

I was going to comment on the Jane Fonda e-mail, but this forum always amazes me because of the direction in which things go. Like Troll when I got to the Catspaw statement, I realized how eloquent he can be. I usually see his posts as light joking or sarcasm, but he states well the feelings of many. Thank you Mudcat for surprising and enlightening me once again.

Regards, Tom


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 02:19 PM

The eloquence of Catspaw, Big Mick, Peter T. B.Seed and a few others are what hooked me into Mudcat in the first place. I'd have been happy to look in occasionally for the music content, but would never have opened myself, my thoughts, beliefs and insecurities to general scrutiny without the postings of those folks.

Still think that "Top 10 (or top 100) lists" are completely bogus though. A REAL "top 100" list would never sell magazines, 'cause there'd be very few celebrities (political or entertainment) on it. Bet there'd be a lot of small town Docs, pro-active clergy, brave soldiers, housewives/mothers, and activists without the desire to be famous.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 02:37 PM

This is one of the internet's most famous hoaxes, up there with Women of Afghanistan. They do nothing but gobble up bandwidth.

If you get some heartrending email, the first place to go is

www.urbanlegends.com

or the About.com urban legends site, which in this case brings up

http://urbanlegends.miningco.com/science/urbanlegends/library/weekly/aa110399.htm

(which says that the Fonda email "mixes fact and fiction").

If the heartrending email is about a virus, the first place to go is

www.symantec.com

where you look up the hoax page.

Now, back to Hanoi Jane. Before the days of the internet the only source of information I had was the mammy, and she gave me this rule: if someone tells you a rumour, look first at their motivation for spreading the rumour, and second at its likelihood.

It's a rule that's always worked for me.


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 02:50 PM

While the email petition for Women in Afghanistan may be old and out of date, the situation there has nothing to do with hoaxes, JTT. They are living in desperate and lethal times and anyone who is aware of it shoudl be petitioning their respective governments to do something about it.


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 03:51 PM

kat's right there. We know a family a few of whom made it out of Afghanistan. The Taliban are not a hoax, unfortunately.


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Banjer
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 05:01 PM

JTT's message says that the Fonda e-mail "mixes fact and fiction". Even if what the author says is half true, that is bad enough, isn't it? If just one man lost his life due to her irresponsible actions, I would say that was one too many!


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Barry Finn
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 05:16 PM

If the protesting had started sooner many more would've come home sooner, now please drop this in light of those who can't come home for the holidays. Earl's brother Barry


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 06:21 PM

If something is "half true and half fiction", that means you can't rely on any part of it as being true. You can't just halve any numbers contained, and take the lower figure as true.

I bought two lottery tickets the other day, and I won six million pounds.

Actually that's only half true.

So does that mean I bought one lottery ticket and won three million pounds? Sadly, no...


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 09:24 PM

You'll find Fonda's speech from Vietnam here (click). That much of the e-mail is true, and I suppose it did have tremendous propaganda value for the Communists. There is no credible evidence that Fonda did anything that made conditions worse for U.S. prisoners of war. The big fabrication is the bit about the slips of paper with the Social Security numbers (SSN).
Perhaps the propaganda shortened the war, or hastened the U.S. pullout - if that's the case, maybe her visit saved American lives.

This all happened a long time ago. I can't really see the value of letting anti-Fonda hatred seethe for decades. It's hard to understand why Fonda still receives a level of disdain far greater than that directed at Nixon and LBJ. Could it be misogyny? Could it be that the Fonda-haters are the same ones who hate Hillary Clinton so intensely?
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Midchuck
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 09:48 PM

It's hard to understand why Fonda still receives a level of disdain far greater than that directed at Nixon and LBJ. Could it be misogyny?

I don't think so. I think it's the feeling that a person with no money and no connections, who did the same thing she did, might very well have stood trial for treason. And the hypocrisy of her becoming so completely an establisment figure in later life (although that's a fairly standard pattern - who was it said "I could never trust a man who was not a Socialist before he was twenty, or who was a Socialist after he was twenty," or something to that effect?)

But that's just my personal take on it.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 11:16 PM

"Peace will come, Let it begin with me." Thanks, Spaw. You know I love you, my friend.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Seth
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 11:24 PM

Well, as John Prine put so eloquently " You forgive me and I'll forgive you, we'll all forgive each other till we all turn blue..." There's nobody on any part of this bloody mess who doesn't need it. I need to revise my statement about Jane Fonda. She made some pretty good movies. "Klute" is worth renting at your local video store I went to a talk that she gave with Tom Hayden at UC Berkeley sometime in the early 70's. I don't remember what they said other than it had to with the CHristmas bombing of Hanoi in 1972?. Tom Hayden is a pretty unpretentious guy( at least he was then). He walked to the front of the stage, sat on the steps. and spoke to the people in the first few rows. He was theoretical, and serious. After he finished talking, there was a pause, Jane eentered from the back of the stage, did what can only be called a star turn, smiled her radiant smile, and started her talk as she walked to the front of the stage. OF course, by the time she got there, she had the whole audience. Her talk was full of passion. I came away thinking that here was an actor, first, and a political activist second or even third. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Vietnamese used her or duped her one way or another, why wouldn't they try to? I believe that she tried to use what celebrity she had to make difference, it didn't turn out quite how she had wanted but that was true for most of us whatever side we were on, but she was a very popular actor at the time, so sought and got more attention than other people who might have been more politically savvy. I forgive 'em all. When that magazine publishes its list of "100 greatest War Criminals", I hope they reserve a spot for McNamara, Bundy, Rostow, and others of that ilk, who did the careful analysis that demonstrated to themselves that the war could not be won by the U.S., yet kept it going for many more years. If your brother, husband, father or son had to die for that.if they were Vietnamese or American, what can you call it but a bloody. miserable waste of life. time and money. Still workin' on it here in China Seth


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Dec 00 - 09:37 AM

My personal feeling is forgiveness isn't about the person being forgiven - especially when you never met them and probably never will. It's about living with yourself.

I've met miserable, bitter people who have built their lives on hate and anger, on grudges and vengence. Anger sometimes leads to action, when there's action possible. When there isn't, anger festers.

As far as what Fonda did - yeah, I think if had been John Doe, he would have been drawn and quartered. I don't think that punishment borne solely out of a need for revenge is right.

I don't have much sympathy for people who've made a hallowed shrine for anger in their hearts. They choose their own path, and no one but themselves is responsible.

What I choose to remember is love. My friend Big Mick, who made it home, forever changed, but holding onto love. My friend Barry, who remembers his brother Earl, and remembers that love. These are the sort of people I respect. So, in the midst of this discussion on the worthiness of vendettas, here's a toast to love...lest we forget.


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Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read
From: Troll
Date: 11 Dec 00 - 10:17 AM

" A hallowed shrine"? Anger is not a thing that is cherished, that brought out and polished and replenished from time to time.
Fonda is a focus for the sorrow, the anguish and the horror; of seeing the life of someone who saved your life snuffed out as his head explodes beside you; of having a little kid run up and hand your buddy a live grenade; of being spit on and called a baby killer.
These things aren't your life but they are part of your life.You accept them as facts of life and, for the most part, go on about your business. They are not constantly on your mind, they just ARE.
But then something reminds you and, just for an instant, it's all there in glorous, living color. And you deal with it as best you can. And if that way is to express the anger that you feel, well, it's better than drinking yourself into insensibility, or picking a fight with your wife.
You bring it out, talk about it and get your life back under control so you can go on with it.
I doubt that Mick and Barry have NO anger. They simply know, as I know, that anger cannot rule their lives. That doesn't mean they don't FEEL the anger sometimes.
I'm sure that they, like most of us, don't want sympathy. We can find that in the dictionary
Between "shit" and "syphilis".

troll


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