On Ilkla Moor Bah T'at - hymn?

Subject: RE: On Ilkla Moor Bah T'at - hymn?
From: IanC
Date: 28 Feb 01 - 07:42 AM

Found the reference. It was Halifax, not Otley (sorry). Goes like this.

"Written by members of a Halifax church choir in 1886. The choir was on a picnic on Ilkley Moor when two of the party, a courting couple, wandered off on their own. When they returned, the choir greeted them with parody of the hymn tune Cranbrook. Other verses were added later and Mary Jane and her young man found a lasting place in Yorkshire song."

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: On Ilkla Moor Bah T'at - hymn?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 09:25 AM

That's in line with what I thought - it's that Ian Russell has put in all the work with the Yorkshire/Derbyshire ones that's made people think of it is just happening there. And largely thanks to him and to Village Carols people are looking elsewhere as well more now.

Subject: RE: On Ilkla Moor Bah T'at - hymn?
From: wes.w
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 08:50 AM

Add Somerset too, McGrath! Living carol traditions in Somerset: Odcombe near Yeovil, and Dunster near Minehead. Loads of old, almost forgotten ones throughout Somerset and Dorset too.

Subject: RE: On Ilkla Moor Bah T'at - hymn?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 07:50 AM

"There were apparently over 1,000 tunes to which this carol was set" - and they're still singing them to most of them round Christmas in pubs in Yorkshire and Derbyshire, and elsewhere as well. Probably the only one they never sing is the "standard one".

Subject: RE: On Ilkla Moor Bah T'at - hymn?
From: IanC
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 07:41 AM

According to my source, the song was composed by members of the Otley church choir during their annual picnic on Ilkley Moor one summer in the late 19th Century (I could probably give you the year, as it's a written source) and set to the tune they used for "While Shepherds Watched". There were apparently over 1,000 tunes to which this carol was set before a single version was printed in "Hymns Ancient and Modern".

Apparently, a young couple had disappeared for much of the afternoon (as couples still do on Ilkley Moor) and on their return, they were faced with the whole choir singing the song, much to their embarrassment.

Presumably the girl was called Mary Jane.

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: On Ilkla Moor Bah T'at - hymn?
From: Burke
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 09:27 PM

Some of this overlaps previous information. According to Praise & Glory (the book that's behind the link in Joe's 2nd message): Thomas Clark (1775-1859) was a boot and shoemaker from Canterbury and leader of the Methodist Choir there for many years. Clark & B.F. Flint edited the Union Tune Book in 1837. Clark produced various versions of Cranbrook, the earliest in 1805 in A Set of Psalm Tunes, a setting which can be found in New Oxford Book of Carols. The setting used in Praise & Glory is from the 1827 Union Tune Book.

Set to "Grace 'tis a Charming Sound" the tune is Short Meter, but removing slurs in the first line makes it Common Meter.

While Shepherds is Common Meter. Is there an English Common Meter tune that has not been used with "While Shepherds watched their flocks by night?"

If you get tired of While Shepherds with Common Meter songs another alternative is Amazing Grace. Hmm. "Was blind but now I see, was blind but now I see, was blind but now I see" :-)

Subject: RE: On Ilkla Moor Bah T'at - hymn?
From: Hawker
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 06:25 PM

Joe, we do too, but if you are singing it on your own there isn't time before the next line........! That's why its better to have lots singing it - some carry on while others start the next line. Lucy

Subject: RE: On Ilkla Moor Bah T'at - hymn?
From: Tyke
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 06:01 PM

Tha reet wecome to out tha I nose lad. But tha musent niver forget thee Old Yorkshire saying. Tha niver get's owt fer nowt. And if thee dose tha must keep it to thee sen!

Subject: RE: On Ilkla Moor Bah T'at - hymn?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 05:48 PM

This is great fun. Thanks for all the great information, everybody!
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: On Ilkla Moor Bah T'at - hymn?
From: Tyke
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 05:43 PM

Hello Joe Have a look at the Rombalds Mummers link on Mudcat. Ilkley Moor (Rombalds Moor) a favourite ramble for walkers today was a popular Sunday afternoon walk for many groups from the near by mill towns. The story is that on one such ramble a group from a local choir were walking across the moor when a couple disappeared from the group for some considerable time. When the couple rejoined the party looking a little dishevelled and had obviously been doing a bit of courting (making love, playing find the sausage, kissing, having a snog, making out) a member of the choir wrote what is now Yorkshires National Anthem Ilkley Moor Ba Tat. Which translated in to English is On Ilkley Moor without a hat an item of clothing that was missing when the couple returned to the group. So where have you been since last you were seen is the translation for "were hast tha been since I saw thee" The reply on Ilkley Moor with out a hat "on Ilkley Moor baht at" Your going to catch a terminal illness "Thas bound to catch thee death of cold" and so on. I will scan and post a full translation for the Rombalds Mummers Website as soon as I can find the time. I'm just about to deliver West Yorkshire Folk Song and Dance Magazine TYKE'S NEWS Spring 2001.

Now this song proved so popular that the singing of it spread far and wide. Things came to a head when members of church congregations started to find amusement when ever the hymn tune was played in church or chapel. The tune was then removed from the hymn books and that's why you are having trouble finding it.

However if you do a web search for Yorkshire Carols you will find that Whilst shepherds watched there flocks by night can and is still sung to this tune. The words and the dots and the guitar chords can also be found in SKIN AND BONES and other group Folk-songs for Group Singing selected by John Longstaff Harcort, Brace & World, INC.,New York. OXFORD UNIVERSITY PRESS MUSIC DEPARTMENT 44 CONDUIT STREET, LONDON W1R 0DE United Kingdom ISBN 0 19 330538 0 If you need any more information drop me a line Joe

Subject: RE: On Ilkla Moor Bah T'at - hymn?
From: Hawker
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 05:36 PM

Joe,

Still sung in Padstow Cornwall at Christmas is a version of While Shepherds Watched their flocks by Night to the tune Cranbrook (Ilkla Moor)it goes:

While shepherds watched their flocks by night
Flocks by night
All seated on the ground
The angel of the Lord came
The angel of the Lord came
The angel of the Lord came down and Glory shone around
And Glory shone around
And Glory shone around
And Glory shone around

It is fantastic when a large group of people sing it together, we usually do it at our local Pub Carol service on Christmas Eve.

Lucy

Line Breaks <br> added. Looks like we were both posting at the same time, Lucy. Nowell Sing We Clear sing "The angel of the Lord came down" three times.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: On Ilkla Moor Bah T'at - hymn?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 05:29 PM

Thanks for the reminder, McGrath and BigJ. I knew I'd heard the tune with another set of words. There's a nice recording of "While Shepherds Watched Their Flocks By Night" with the Cranbrook tune on The Best of Nowell Sing We Clear. I didn't realize this was a traditional association of words and lyrics - I thought they were singing it to the tune of "Ilkla Moor" as a joke. Shows how little I know.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: On Ilkla Moor Bah T'at - hymn?
From: GUEST,bigJ
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 04:50 PM

From the 'New Oxford Book of Carols' regarding 'While Shepherds Watched' p144 - Tune V, now universally known as 'Cranbrook', is one of the earliest and certainly the best known of the enormous number composed by the remarkable cordwainer (shoemaker) and musician Thomas Clark, who became the leading Dissenting composer of the late Georgian period. The setting we give is the earliest we have found..... We prefer this to the blander revisions that the composer made for successive publications. Clark included the tune in a form close to the manuscript in his first publication, 'A Set of Psalm and Hymn Tunes' (London 1805). Clark's preferred text was Phillip Dodderidge's 'Grace! 'tis a charming sound'...... Salvationists sing the tune to to Isaac Watts's 'Come Ye That Love the Lord' but it is better known throughout the English speaking world to the Yorkshire words 'On Ilkla Moor baht 'at'.

Subject: RE: On Ilkla Moor Bah T'at - hymn?
From: Burke
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 04:47 PM

I have a hymnal from the Church of Christ (US) first published in the 1920's or 30's & with an appendix from the 1960's. In the back are some tunes that don't fit either the Hymn or the Gospel Songs sections. At a post Sacred Harp singing party I was showing a friend the a-cappella 7 shape version of the Hallelujah Chorus. On the opposite page was a song someone looked at & sang "Grace 'tis a charming sound..." Whereupon two others launched into On Ilkala Moor. I'd never heard either before. I was amazed when one of our company indicated it was indeed a "West Gallery" tune. PM me if you need a copy of the music & words together.

I know it's also in Praise & Glory with "Grace 'tis a Charming sound." I'll check my copy & see if there's any additional information there about Clark.

Subject: RE: On Ilkla Moor Bah T'at - hymn?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 04:37 PM

And Ian Russell, whose email address is on that website would surely be able to tell Joe anything there is to know about that tune.

Subject: RE: On Ilkla Moor Bah T'at - hymn?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 04:30 PM

Well,, if Carols count as hymns, this is one of the tunes used for While Shepherds Watched their Flocks by Night in the Village Carols tradition in Yorkshire and Derbyshire. And in many folk gatherings elsewhere now as well. Great to sing, with lots of repeats. The advantage is that everyone knows the words, and everyone knows the tune, even if they've never put them together before.

Subject: RE: On Ilkla Moor Bah T'at - hymn?
From: MMario
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 03:52 PM

Grace,tis a charming sound

Subject: RE: On Ilkla Moor Bah T'at - hymn?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 03:43 PM

Click here for yet another setting of the tune. Apparently, there was a hymn called "Grace, Tis a Charming Sound" sung to the tune - but I haven't found the lyrics.
-Joe Offer, playing hymn sleuth today-

Subject: RE: On Ilkla Moor Bah T'at - hymn?
From: Amergin
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 03:36 PM

All I can find, Joe, are links to Cranbrook, UK and Cranbrook, BC....the latter of which is just north of my hometown....

Subject: On Ilkla Moor Bah T'at - hymn?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 03:32 PM

I was researching another song, and I came across the Traditional Ballad Index entry for "On Ilkla Moor Bah T'at," which says the song is sung to the tune of the hymn "Cranbrook" ("Ilkla" is sometimes called Ilkley Moor). If you Click here you will be wafted away to the Christian Classic Ethereal Library's entry for the tune, with MIDI and sheet music. You can Click here for historical information on the "Ilkla Moor" song, including the contention that it was first published as sheet music in 1916, and identification of "Cranbrook" as a Methodist hymn, written in 1805.

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Here is the entry from the Ballad Index:

On Ilkla Moor Bah T'at

DESCRIPTION: On the dangers of visiting the moor without a hat: One singer tells the other he has been (courting) on the moor without a hat. He is told he'll die of cold. They will bury him, and worms will eat him; ducks will eat them, people eat ducks, and so it goes
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1917
KEYWORDS: clothes courting disease death
FOUND IN: Britain(England(North),Wales)
REFERENCES (3 citations):
Kennedy 303, "On Ilkla Moor Bah T'at" (1 text, 1 tune)
Silber-FSWB, p. 26, "Ilkley Moor Baht 'At" (1 text)
DT, ILKLAMOR
Notes: Kennedy reports, "The author of this local dialect song is supposed to have been a Thomas Clark who wrote it in 1805 to the hymn tune Cranbrook. Who he was or how the song came to be are not known. Yorkshire men all the world over regard the song with ritualistic respect." - RBW
File: K303

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Go to the Ballad Search form
Go to the Ballad Index Instructions

The Ballad Index Copyright 2000 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.

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OK, so that's the background information. Now, here's my question: Can anybody find hymn lyrics that were sung to this tune? I've checked several hymnals with no luck - I even checked an 1878 Methodist Hymnal. I suppose if I ever heard this in church, I'd start laughing because I'd immediately relate it to "Ilkla Moor." The "Ilkla Moor" lyrics are in the Digital Tradition, but I'm looking for the hymn lyrics.

-Joe Offer-