Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Peg
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 10:34 AM

Clinton; I take it you are admitting you're a bigot?

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 11:36 AM

Now kids, stop calling names!!:>)

Peg is pointing at an important point -- sensitivity in the use of symbols if you are dealing with people whose scars are likely to be stirred up by them is a good thing, up to a point, a kindness to fellow humans. But it is a voluntary exercise of good will and an individual choice.

But more generally, I think it is important to realize that having "buttons" based on past pain that get stirred up by the use of symbols is not a human virtue -- it is a dysfunction of automatic association, asserting that to some degree the symbol is equal to its past context, which it obviously is not. Beliving that "now" is the same as "then" is pretty much the core mechasnism of stupidness and irrationality in humans.

So I would think that the over-sensitivity and dramatization that motivastes the impulse to "ban" or suppress certain symbols is an unhealthy one, and should be discouraged. What should be promoted is the real use of understanding and compassion.

A

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Peg
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 11:45 AM

well said, Amos.

I am a professional writer and very much against censorship of language because of who it might offend, but I am talking in a literary or critical context...

Someone's right to use offensive racial or sexist slurs in conversation stops at the point where they seem to be spewing hatred...whether at the person or persons who resemble their epithets (the niggers, faggots or gooks--sorry, trying to make a point here), or at those who, being compassionate and fair-minded human beings (not to mention mature and socially-adept human beings who realize that our differences are nothing to be afraid of), take offense that said bigot is promulgating hatred...not to mention ignorance.

Freedom of speech is a privilege, not a right. With privilege comes responsibility.

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Gary T
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 05:02 PM

Nice theoretical philosophy, folks, but I can't buy it. I know a fellow who grew up in a time and place where "nigger" was used as an everyday, casual, non-pejorative word, much as we might use "Black" or "African-American" today. He still doesn't see anything wrong with the word as HE means it, and if not for social pressure, would likely call Blacks, very lovingly, "niggers." To argue that this would be just fine because he means absolutely nothing negative by it (which is what I hear being said) strikes me as quite out of touch with reality, and rather oblivious to the feelings of black folks.

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 07:25 PM

If I was black, which I'm not, I think I probably would use the word "nigger", and feel entitled to do so - but that wouldn't mean I wouldn't object strongly to white people feeling entitled to use it.

In the same way I'm happy with terms like Paddy and Mick when used among Irish people, but feel irritated when they are used casually by non-Irish. (And I'm not equating the expressions in terms of their power to hurt or the background that give them that piower - I'm just giving another example of how neat symmetry in these things doesn't work.)

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Haruo
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 08:39 PM

piccaninny is offensive in English for a lot of people, but pikanini is perfectly acceptable, normal Tok Pisin (and probably a lot of other pidgins); it's derived from a Portuguese cognate of Spanish pequeño, lots of widespread pidgin/creole words are of Portuguese origin.

In spite of what Little Hawk said, I think a lot of the same people who find "squaw" offensive would feel the same way about "papoose". And, like piccaninny, and squaw, "siwash" is perceived as racist by a lot of First Nations folk in English, though with the first vowel pronounced "ah" it's perfectly good Chinook Wawa aka Jargon. (It's ultimately from French sauvage, so the etymology is legitimately offensive.)

Liland

PS Hoping to get online at home next week or two, be here more often.

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 01:41 PM

Finding words offensive is an exercise in shallowness and short-sighted thought. Finding intentions unacceptable is closer to the core issue.

A

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Sourdough
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 03:11 PM

But Amos, Since we live in a complex society in which our words have the potential to go from our mouths (or our fingertips) tens of thousands of ears, aren't we asking a lot for these people to judge intentions. It seems it would just be good manners not to run the risk of offending unless we have a good reason to.

This is not specifically for Amos but for those who insist that words are symbols and can't hurt in themselves. "Sticks and stones can break my bones, but names can never hurt me". Words are symbols but we live by symbols. Most of our communication is done by symbols, words, images, graphics. A racial slur is no less a symbol than a swastika. If I see a sixteen year old boy wearing a swastika proudly on an armband, it is hard to remember that since he was born forty years after the death of Hitler, he might have no idea of the meaning of that symbol to many people. On the other hand, wouldn't you agree that he had a responsibility to be aware of the meaning of a symbol before he broadcast it on his body?

Sourdough

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Tedham Porterhouse
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 03:37 PM

Hitler and his Nazi thugs came to power in Germany in 1933. From the get-go their words were viciously anti-Semitc. Some Jews took that as a warning and fled Germany in the thirties.

Virtually all who stayed were exterminated in the Holocaust.

Should they have left too? Not by some of the logic I've read in this thread. After all, in those days it was just words (and a few broken windows), and as Clinton and some others here say, words themselves are not bad.

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 03:44 PM

Obviously if you want your intentions to be correctly understood, you'll learn the language. If you intend to stir people up, you have to learn their buttons. The equation would be useless,though, if they were able to notice the difference between symbols and reality. We don't live by symbols. We just think we do. What we live by is the actual reality around us.

That said, obviously too we communicate a lot, using all kinds of methods, including words, and choosing your words and symbols is part of the resposnsibility of the speaker. If your exemplary boy was a budding scholar of ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics, he might be carrying his swastika for a totally different reason than you assume. If you're going to judge your real environment by a symbol system, you have the responsibility of doing sanity checks once in a while to make sure you are still aligning symbols with the right referents.

Look, suppose I get the notion going among a certain populace that high boots are symbolic of the SS. And tight red dresses are representative of loose-moralled women. Do I therefore have the right to assume, if I wander through London and see a young secretary in a short tight red dress with high boots on, that she is a Nazi prostitute? Symbols are only really reliable if they are agreed-upon. That's why we have dictionaries.

Knee-jerk reactions and emotional hypersensitivity which assert inaccurate intentions on all users of a symbol because of the form of the symbol is just institutionalized stupidity. If the political correctitude crowd had their way, old poeple would be chronologically gifted, fat people would be gravitically challenged, and stupid people would be "conceptually differently abled". This is just sociological hog-slop born from an inability to stand up to the normal ebb and flow of human intercourse. Why instituionalize and promote such an inability?

A

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 03:51 PM

Tedham:

Vicious anti-semitic oratory is a very different kettle of fish from the impulse to ban individual words from use in general. Defiling a whole class of people using broad national communication channels is a very different issue than whether a folksinger should be allowed to sing "Why do they call me Snowball?" or "Doan You Cry Mah Honey" wiothout having brickbats slung about.

A

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Tedham Porterhouse
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 04:00 PM

Amos,

When I see someone wearing a cross, I make an assumption that the person is a Christian, or at least that Christianity has some signifigance to them.

When I see someone wearing a Mogen David (Star of David), I make an assumption that the person is Jewish, or at least that Judaism has some signifigance to them.

And when I see someone wearing a swastika armband, or with a sawstika tattoo, I assume that the person is a neo-Nazi.

Your "budding scholar of ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics" would probably be smart enough to know what the swastika has come to represent in the past seventy years and would not be displaying it like that.

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Haruo
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 09:29 PM

Not necessarily. Probably, but not necessarily. The swastika is still alive as a religious symbol, turned both directions with different implications, in areas like Bhutan and Tibet, where it is simply unreasonable to expect the people to give up their religious symbols because of some thugs in Europe.

Liland

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: GUEST,Crazy Eddie
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 06:59 AM

Tedham Porterhouse <>

But the Swastika has been a symbol of peace and prosperity in the Hindu religion (and its precursers) for over 2 thousand years. If you see a chain of swastika symbols uver the door of a Hindu Household, will you project your view of the symbol, & assume that they are nazis, or accept their view of it?

I think Amos said it all in <>

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Tedham Porterhouse
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 09:25 AM

I know many Hindus. Some are friends whose homes I've visited. While the swastika may be symbolic in their religion, I've never seen any Hindus, of those I know or of the ones I see, wearing swastikas the way that Nazis or neo-Nazis do.

When I see a someone in punk regalia with a swastika tattooed on his forhead, and I have seen that, or on an armband, I know that I'm reasonable in concluding that he is not a Hindu.

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 11:41 AM

You might well be, but if you assumed he was a Nazi you'd be going beyond what the evidence actually justified.

The same way, when I see some country-music fan in England with a Stars and Bars sewn on his jacket, I'd not be entitled to make any assumption whatsoever about his or her politics or attitudes about anything apart from music.

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Tedham Porterhouse
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 12:53 PM

OK, McGrath, next time I see a punker with a swastika tattooed on his forehead, I'll assume that he's not a neo-Nazi, just a kid who loves neo-Nazi music.

It seems to me that if you're going to display political symbols, swastikas or Stars & Brars, you do it with the understanding that people will assume that the political symbols you display represent your politics.

Here in the U.S., many have given up the Stars & Bars because we know that country music is not what that flag represents.

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: GUEST,vicarsbike
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 01:25 PM

completely agree with you clinton.

to me, a big part of folk music is about upholding traditions, and if we're going to go about changing the words just because it offends someone, it's defeating a part of the object.

it's things such as "political correctness" that are slowly ruining the folk industry - stick to the traditions & sod the sad poeple who feel they have to moan about some figure of speech.

i live in yorkshire, england, and we find it increasingly amusing to listen to anybody trying to be politically correct, cos it sounds rediculous & just doesn't work over here.

phil (vicarsbike productions)

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 01:28 PM

"When I see a someone in punk regalia with a swastika tattooed on his forhead, and I have seen that, or on an armband, I know that I'm reasonable in concluding that he is not a Hindu."

Isn't that judging by apperances?

That same post though Tedham, sorta brings up what I'm on about... this issue of context... that's why I say that there are no bad words... it's the context that those words are used in... saying that market prices and falling stock queer'd the deal you were about to make is o.k. by me... it's a matter of context...

At least that's how I feel...

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 01:33 PM

Isn't that judging by appearances?

Sometimes appearances do, in fact, give a pretty good grounds for judgment. Who would wear an offensive symbol? Somebody who doesn't care about being offensive, at the very least. Maybe not a neo-nazi just because they're wearing a swastika, but I'd say at the very least someone antisocial and probably angry-at-the-world as well.

Alex

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: GUEST,vicarsbike
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 01:40 PM

sorry, but i'm going to be a bit of a devil's advocate here....

what makes you think that somebody dressed in that way is angry with the world?

maybe they just like the designs?

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 01:43 PM

Yes, I suppose that's possible, Vicarsbike. It's also possible that all the airplanes in the world that are in the air will fall out of the sky at exactly 2300 GMT tomorrow.

I don't look for either to happen, however. I apply the "not bloody likely" test.

Alex

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: GUEST,vicarsbike
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 01:46 PM

sorry alex, but both are possible.

the one i speak about is probable - that's the difference

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 01:47 PM

As I say, neither seem to be too terribly likely to me. But I'll give you "mad at the world" if you will give me "doesn't care (or perhaps understand) if people find their appearance objectionable"

Alex

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: GUEST,vicarsbike
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 01:50 PM

see the kids that are wearing this kind of stuff - look at their age - do they know how to be angry with the world?

and if they do, i'd find that very sad inded

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 01:53 PM

Have you ever talked to somebody that young who was angry with the world? I have. It is, in fact, very sad indeed.

Alex

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: GUEST,vicarsbike
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 01:57 PM

in what sense were they angry?

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 01:59 PM

They felt they were owed something that they weren't getting, be it "respect" or a better world than ours is, or something. This is if you can actually get them to say anything besides "fuck you!". I fear most of them are hurting pretty badly -- perhaps victims of abuse at home? It breaks your heart, mate.

Alex

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Sourdough
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 01:59 PM

I think that's very accurate, Mousethief. People do choose symbols for what they think they communicate. You cannot choose a symbol and decide it means what you want it to mean. That is trying to live in the Lewis Carroll world on the other side of the looking glass.

This reminds me of a story. My closest and longest time friend is a television writer who began his career in advertising. Every day, he put on his suit, tie, and wingtips and went to work on Madison Avenue. In his spare time, he wrote some scripts for childrens shows in but he earned a living as a copywriter for a major advertising agency. Despite the good money, he was not satisfied with his life.

His scripts got the attention of Muppeteer Jim Henson and he was offered a job on Sesame Street. He leaped at the opportunity.

When it was time to go to his first meeting with the other writers he looked in his wardrobe for what to wear. Clearly, in the new environment, a suit would be out of place. A suit is a symbol and it would communicate something about himself that he did not believe or want to communicate.

What he selected was a safari jacket and matching pants. When he walked into the conference room at the Childrens Television Worshop he noticed that all of the writers were wearing safari jackets. He had successfully selected the outfit that synbolically stated that he was one of them. He felt far more comfortable in those clothes than he would have in a different sort of costume. What was odd was that all of thos individualists, as a group, had selected from such a narrow range of clothing possibilities. It would seem that their communication of individuality was outward from the group rather than purely an individual statement. I think there is something to be learned from his story.

Sourdough

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 02:05 PM

People have all kinds of reasons for doing things they know will annoy other people. The best thing is to reserve judgement in things like that.

And I suppose you could get a nazi punk, but I've never met one. If I met one with a swastika, I assume it had some other significance, until I had evidence to the contrary. Like being mad at the world - which is hardly an unusual stance for a young person. Real Nazis tend to wear suits, or posh uniforms.

My point about the Stars and Bars is that it means different things in different places. There's lots of racism or whatever you like to call it in England, but it takes different shapes and uses different symbols, and people have different hang-ups.

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Gary T
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 03:09 PM

Just to set the terms straight, the "Stars and Bars" is the virtually-never-seen Confederate political flag, similar to the Stars and Stripes but with 3 broad stripes (bars) instead of 13 narrow ones. I'm sure the flag being discussed above is the Confederate battle flag.

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 04:26 PM

Thank you, Gary. I had been debating making this point. The familiar star-studded blue "X" on a red background is NOT the stars-n-bars; it's the Confederate Battle Flag.

Alex

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: GUEST,Ole Bull
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 04:30 PM

Wow! What a strange world it's become. Am I the wierd one here? I've been checking out the stuff that my 12 year old daughter downloads from Napster- the stuff that "all the kids in school listen to." Do you know this stuff? By Nas, 504 boys, DMX; "Oochie Wallie", "I Can Tell" all these hatefull and pornographic pop songs... they play them on the radio too, but they beep the f***, n******, and s***. The beeps don't change the content or the intent, it only disguises it. And you guys tell me it's offensive for a folk singer to say pickaninny. Sorry. I don't get what's going on and I find it very disturbing.

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 04:38 PM

Right there - I was getting my banners in a twist. (Honest though, I really knew that.)

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 05:15 PM

There are 22 variant spellings of piccaninny in the compact OED. It seems to be a West Indian (Caribbean) derivation from Spanish (pequeno) or Portuguese (pequenino). It was originally used as just a term for a small child, and first found in English in 1657 and 1681 in that sense, and later and much later. But the term could also just mean 'little'.

OED doesn't note T. D'Urfey's song in "Don Quixote', 1696, commencing:

Dear Pickinniny, if half a Guinny,
To Love will not win ye,
I lay it here down;
We must be Thrifty,
'Twill serve to shift ye,
And I know Fifty,
Will do't for a Crown.

D'Urfey used it to mean a whore, but nothing in his song ('Pills' I, p. 283, 1719) implies she was black.

Just when blacks took it to be derogatory I can't say, but my guess would be sometime before slavery was abolished in the USA. It seems to be taken only as derogatory now.

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 05:20 PM

Ole Bull, can't BOTH be offensive? Must it be one or the other?

We're discussing FOLK MUSIC because that's what this site is about. If this site were a pop or rap or rock site, I imagine we'd be discussing those songs you mention.

Somebody wanted to know if they should sing a certain song, or rather should sing a certain word. This question was raised because this is the sort of song us old folkies are wont to sing, and this is the sort of word that turns up in these songs. Nobody asked about the latest Puff Daddy song because by and large, we're folkies and blues artists and don't sing Puff Daddy songs.

That's what's going on here.

Alex

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 07:02 PM

I suppose it could be argued that "half a Guinny" might have a colour reference in D'Urfey's song. (Though I don't think it'd be the right interpretation.)

A parallel to all this exists in "bambino" - when used in English, but in an Italian context, it implies an Italian baby. But outside that context, if anyone used it of a baby, it wouldn't imply the baby was Italian, just that the speaker liked to use Italian words sometimes. That's the way piccaninny has been used in countries like England, in the past anyway. I'd suspect that bert's blue eyes piccaninny song could well be English rather than American.

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Gary T
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 08:29 PM

Looking at the song Bruce O. posted, the context has me thinking that the first line should be "...half a guinea," said guinea being a coin worth more than the crown (also a coin) mentioned in the last line.

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 08:57 PM

'ginney' is from the Portugese 'guine', and 'guinea' seems the be the most recent of several ways to render it in English.

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: GUEST,Ole Bull
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 10:42 PM

Yes Alex Mousethief, let us return to the question as originally posed by Murray. I think my answer would be "It depends"- on whether you are white or black. And what was your answer? It depends on whether you are pop or folk?

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Jarlo
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:22 PM

It is not likely that Murray will get a chance to explain himself if he miscommunicates to his audience to start with. If his song were written in French, he might sing a translation in order to communicate. In the same way, he may want to "translate" a word ('piccaninnies') so that the audience will understand the meaning he intends. This is not a matter of caving in to censureship. It's just communication. Modern liguistic theories model how the meaning of a word is changed based on the audience hearing the word. This is reality.

We should make a distinction between (a) not jumping to conclusions in our judgements about other people and (b) the unrealistic expectation that others will do the same. My Anthropology professor taught us to be anthropologists with people of other cultural traditions and also to be anthropologists with the bigoted people who couldn't do likewise.

BTW, historically, BVE (Black Vernacular English, as linguists call it) derives from West African Pidgin English of the 17th and 18th centuries. This was also the ancestor language of the Surinam "Taki Taki" and other west African creoles. West African Pidgin was derived from English sailor speech, which in turn was greatly influenced by the Pidgin Portuguese spoken by sailors of all nationalities in the Mediterranean Sea. 'Picayune' probably came into English from this sailor's Portuguese. 'Piccaninny' may very well have come through West Africa.

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:32 PM

Bull, you miss my point. I'm not saying what's offensive depends on what type of music it is. I'm saying what type of music gets discussed on a website depends on what type of website it is.

As for the word, *I* wouldn't sing it, and I wouldn't suggest anybody sing it. If a black man or woman wants to sing it, that's their nevermind.

Alex

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 06:47 PM

Well, as it happens, on the night I did substitute "cotton-pickers" for the offending word. It is perhaps worth mentioning here that , if you study the words of the song, Jimmie Rogers makes great play with the word "pick" in its various connotations, and I am convinced that the only reason he used "piccaninny" was simply for alliterative word-play.

Murray

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 08:13 PM

D'Urfey is using Guinea referring to the coin, clearly enough. But he could have been making some kind of pun too (though I don't think he was), since "a guinea" has often enough been used to mean a black person. The word refers to the West Africa, where a lot of gold came from, both metal gold and "black gold" which was a term for slaves.

In modern times the guinea wasn't a coin, but was regularly used as a measure of price, right up until decimalisation and the end of the old currency. A guinea was 21 shillings, or one pound and one shilling. (The style of currency you only get in Harry Potter these days, unfortunately.)