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BS: Women who drowned her 5 children

Louie Roy 22 Jun 01 - 11:22 PM
TishA 22 Jun 01 - 11:25 PM
DougR 23 Jun 01 - 02:30 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 23 Jun 01 - 04:34 AM
RichM 23 Jun 01 - 08:02 AM
GUEST 23 Jun 01 - 10:40 AM
RichM 23 Jun 01 - 10:43 AM
Wolfgang 23 Jun 01 - 10:45 AM
Sorcha 23 Jun 01 - 10:46 AM
JedMarum 23 Jun 01 - 10:52 AM
katlaughing 23 Jun 01 - 11:30 AM
Clinton Hammond 23 Jun 01 - 11:30 AM
Ebbie 23 Jun 01 - 12:00 PM
Little Hawk 23 Jun 01 - 12:06 PM
Sorcha 23 Jun 01 - 12:10 PM
Susan from California 23 Jun 01 - 12:54 PM
chip a 23 Jun 01 - 01:00 PM
Matt_R 23 Jun 01 - 03:24 PM
Mooh 23 Jun 01 - 03:49 PM
Mrrzy 23 Jun 01 - 04:03 PM
Sorcha 23 Jun 01 - 04:14 PM
SeanM 23 Jun 01 - 04:24 PM
JedMarum 23 Jun 01 - 04:47 PM
Sorcha 23 Jun 01 - 04:54 PM
Mrrzy 23 Jun 01 - 05:41 PM
thosp 23 Jun 01 - 06:04 PM
Little Hawk 23 Jun 01 - 06:09 PM
GUEST,Joe 23 Jun 01 - 06:47 PM
SeanM 23 Jun 01 - 07:09 PM
SeanM 23 Jun 01 - 07:11 PM
JedMarum 23 Jun 01 - 07:54 PM
Amergin 23 Jun 01 - 07:57 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 23 Jun 01 - 08:20 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 23 Jun 01 - 08:32 PM
Little Hawk 23 Jun 01 - 08:33 PM
Mrrzy 23 Jun 01 - 08:35 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 23 Jun 01 - 09:54 PM
katlaughing 23 Jun 01 - 10:30 PM
Little Hawk 23 Jun 01 - 10:54 PM
Sorcha 23 Jun 01 - 11:07 PM
Amergin 23 Jun 01 - 11:26 PM
Áine 23 Jun 01 - 11:27 PM
Fiolar 24 Jun 01 - 07:35 AM
alison 24 Jun 01 - 08:50 AM
harpgirl 24 Jun 01 - 10:55 AM
guinnesschik 24 Jun 01 - 12:01 PM
MAV 24 Jun 01 - 12:23 PM
Little Hawk 24 Jun 01 - 12:29 PM
JedMarum 24 Jun 01 - 01:21 PM
GUEST,Joe 24 Jun 01 - 04:53 PM

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Subject: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Louie Roy
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 11:22 PM

Iwas sick when I read this article and wondered if others felt not only anger such as I but also a deep sickness in the pit of their stomach. Louie Roy


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: TishA
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 11:25 PM

I have 7 daughters and 2 sons and 8 grandkids. I just feel sad. Too sad to tell. Harmonica sad.

Chip A.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: DougR
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 02:30 AM

Do you think it likely, Louie Ray, that ANYONE is going to post a message expressing anything other than sorrow about this situation? I don't think so. But we will see.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 04:34 AM

I've lived with three wattering, chattering, sniveling, litle minions from hell...

And can only imagine, in nightmares, what five would be like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: RichM
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 08:02 AM

There ya go, Doug--gargoyle just answered your question!


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 10:40 AM

When and where did this happen please?

I've not heard about it.

Can anyone provide a news link, please?

Thanks


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: RichM
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 10:43 AM

In Texas, I think. Some are already calling for the death penalty.

Rich


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 10:45 AM

E.g., here

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 10:46 AM

Houston, Texas Don't know how long the link will work, it's from a newspaper.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: JedMarum
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 10:52 AM

Louie Roy - sooo sad. My reaction was similar to yours Louie. How can one have gotten so deeply disturbed - and what mountain of pain has been created?


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 11:30 AM

the sad story


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 11:30 AM

Ug... it's a hell of a symptom...


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 12:00 PM

I've gotta say this, GAG: when you went to hell to get those minions, I'm surprised you didn't stay! Wanna try again?

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 12:06 PM

This sort of thing happens when a person has simply lost all hope and all sense that they can cope with a situation...and they can't figure out what to do about it...and they break under the stress and lose control. It's an act of desperation. Who knows why? You would have to be her and live her life (all of it) in order to even begin to know why.

Of course some Texans are calling for the death penalty. Duh. It's their standard way of resolving human tragedies after the fact. That's what you get when you combine a serious lack of empathy or imagination with a fearful and vengeful mindset, and just plain outright ignorance.

As if executing her will help anyone....!

It's clear from the story that the woman was in a lengthy and deep depression, that she had lost confidence in herself and her ability to raise her children properly. When people are very depressed it alters their whole perception of reality. Their self-worth goes down the drain, and their ability to cope with ordinary things is severely curtailed. That can lead to suicide or it can lead to other desperate acts which a person would normally not consider. (Animals will also sometimes kill their young when under unusual stress...it's not an act indicative of evil, but of panic or loss of control on some level.)

My only reaction (aside from disgust at those calling for her exection) is sadness.

If she is sent to jail, of course, she will get routinely viciously beaten by inmates who see their own darkest fears mirrored in what she did, and take it out on her. It would probably be wiser to place her in a safe place in some mental institution.

There is no good or easy solution to this kind of tragedy once it has happened. No simple fix. Not even in Texas. No matter how many more lives are taken by the State. Those who are against killing ought not to do it themselves.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 12:10 PM

I do understand that Little Hawk, having had some serious bouts with depression myself, and my heart goes out to this woman and her family, but my question is:

If she was having such a difficult time with Post Partum Depression why did she keep having MORE babies????


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Susan from California
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 12:54 PM

Maybe she didn't know what else to do. Maybe she didn't believe in birth control. Maybe her husband thought that keeping busy was the best "cure". The poor woman had five kids, the oldest was seven AND she was homeschooling them. I cried this morning when I read that her 7 year old tried to get away, and that she did it because she felt that she had ruined her children beyond repair. She must have felt very alone. How often have Moms felt as if they skrewed up their kids? I know I have sure questioned my ability from time to time. But thank God I have been healthy enough to realize that even tho I mess up, the kids are ok. One can only hope and pray that the survivors will find some measure of peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: chip a
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 01:00 PM

Gee, Little Hawk,

So easy for you to find sympathy and understanding for a woman who KILLED FIVE KIDS. How, in the same breath do you fail to find any understanding for "some Texans"?

Could it be that you have a serious lack of empathy or imagination with a fearful and vengeful mindset, and just plain outright ignorance?

I'd pretty much agree with your take on depression and also (maybe) on the death penalty. But your attitude sucks out loud.

Chip A.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Matt_R
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 03:24 PM

I found it sickening as well.

Who was it who said in a thread the other day that they loved singing songs about mothers murdering their children? Here's another sad sad event for one of those kind of songs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Mooh
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 03:49 PM

Yeah Matt, great folk song material, ain't it!

Makes me sick just to think about it, but think about it I must. I don't know how to respond to this most evil of tragedies. As both parent and child it is frightening beyond compare, and just as inhuman, I hope. My only reaction in this case is to hope and pray because I know no other reaction.

There is no justice available for this crime or this criminal or the conditions which spawned her.

Peace. Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 04:03 PM

Definitely just the kind of tragedy that makes the best folk ballads. Good point for a Mudcat thread, although some may think that gross (maybe folk songs are like sausages and laws, you don't want to know how they're made?)...

The other thought I had, besides the incredible how sads, wa that this may have been depression, but it isn't post-partum depression if it's lasted for 2 years, by definition. You can't re-up postpartum depression by having more kids. This was definitely an abandoned (-feeling, which is reality as we all know) woman with terrible inexorable (-feeling, again) something that (I guess I am now having a second thought) won't be cured by execution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 04:14 PM

No, it won't be "cured" by execution, nor will it stop some other depressed parent from doing the same thing. I truly doubt that this woman would ever do this again if she gets the right kind of good help. If however, she ever truly realizes what she did, she could definitely be a suicide risk; as to that, perhaps she should be allowed to do that. I don't know, I am not G-d, nor am I the arbiter of her soul.

It is just too, too tragic, but I also suspect that the US at least, is going to start seeing more and more of this kind of thing for quite a few reasons. Perhaps other "civilized" (whatever the hell that means) countries. Too much Society, not enough caring help. Too much assigned blame, not enough "guilt free help".

Remember the mother in Idaho just a week or so ago? She was "too proud" to accept help, most likely because the "help" offered required her to feel some guilt about her inability to provide. Guilt seems to be a requirement of the current "help" system.

I could be wrong; I was wrong once........I hope I am wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: SeanM
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 04:24 PM

Here's the major song being referred to:

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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: JedMarum
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 04:47 PM

Good points here, all, except for Little Hawk's bigotry.

Thoughtful, compassionate comments for a deeply troubling event. I am very very sorry to have heard this news, and just wanted to sit and try to imagine how things could have gone so wrong, and remained unseen - how could she have slipped so seriously into such a depression and no one noticed, or found a way to get her out - or at least out of harm's way.

There are no pat answers, no sound bite explanations or solutions. These deeply sorrowful events, these human complexities cannot be given justice by a prying press or a sound bite driven talk show host. This poor woman crossed the line of no return. The rest of us pick up the pieces and move on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 04:54 PM

Jed, trust me, serious depression can easily be hidden, especially if your family, friends, SO's whatever don't really want to see it. Been there, done that. My family wouldn't even see it when I tried to tell them, until the night I OD's on over the counter stuff because I was so angry/isolated/unbelieved, etc.

Then, they got mad at ME for taking all that stuff instead of talking----I HAD been trying to talk for months but nobody would listen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 05:41 PM

I didn't find Little Hawk's posting bigoted - now had the phrase been "Texans" instead of "some Texans" - it would have been. But some Texans ARE calling for the death penalty, and it isn't bigoted to notice them. Nor to think uncharitable things about people who'd want to kill someone for doing something so beyond the pale that it has to be insane, almost by fiat. Not that I have anything against little Italian cars, either!


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: thosp
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 06:04 PM

it's heartbreaking -- makes me want to cry -- i agree with Sorcha that the woman might very well commit suicide --- i just wish she could be touched by the finger of God and be made well---

peace (Y) thosp


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 06:09 PM

Exactly. Some Texans. However, I am not surprised some of you didn't like my post. If one makes a strong statement about anything, there will always be some people who don't like it. I don't like capital punishment. Nor do I like murder. Judging from what I read about the woman in the article, she sounds like a person in a truly pitiful state, and I felt a sense of pity for her accordingly.

I don't necessarily feel as much compassion for people who sit comfortably at home, safe and sound, watch their TV, and demand that someone else be put to death.

But maybe I should...?

Well, can't expect to please everyone.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 06:47 PM

Damn sad ,I have to say there is no excuse for such a thing and it is your type of thinking little hawk that allows our society to let this type of person to live and lets others think they can get away with heineous crimes because they were depressed or had their ass beat when they were a child. I feel the Bitch should be dunked just like they did when they tryed to get someone to admit to witchcraft.I also feel if she commits suicide it will save us some tax dollars on the trial.I know not very compassionate and it will not bring those children back but something must be done remember the woman who drowned her children in the car by driving it into a lake and then tryed to blame it on someone else. I believe she got off fairly easy because she was not in her right mind, How would you feel if those Texans decided they were not in their right mind and had a good old fashion lynching.But they wouldn't be because murder is a part of human nature there fore how can you be mentally ill now if you broke into some ones home and cleaned it I would say that is mentally ill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: SeanM
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 07:09 PM

Wow... what... interesting views we have, Guest.

I agree! Kill EVERYONE who's attached to the story! Kill the mother! Kill the father, for not being there to stop her! Kill the neighbors for not noticing that she was that depressed! Kill the guy at the local grocery store who bagged her last order of groceries for not stopping her! Kill EVERY police officer in town, because obviously they're criminally negligent for not stopping not one but FIVE murders! Kill every judge in the nation, for not knowing who this woman was, and not ordering her to stay away from her children! Kill everyone working for the media, because dammit they HAVE to have caused this somehow! Kill everyone reading this thread, because they didn't figure out how to stop this before it was too late!

Or better yet, realize that by teaching people that killing is the way to remove something (or someone) undesirable from society and/or your life you teach them that life is cheap, and figure out something new to do with 'captial' criminals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: SeanM
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 07:11 PM

BTW, I fully support anti-crimes. If you've got to have criminals, I think breaking and cleaning, criminal giving, and unauthorized civic cleanup are great ways to vent.

Start a crime wave now! Go to your nearest park and weed and mow the lawns! Repaint the basketball courts! Anarchy!

M


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: JedMarum
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 07:54 PM

Sorcha - I know that depression can be 'missed' or ignored by family members. I guess my question was rhetorical, but it is sooo sad that there were probably signs that went un-noticed or un-acted upon. But we cannot know the details.

Little Hawk, your point-of-view about Texans, or some Texans leaves little room for opposing points-of-view. If your comments weren't bigoted, they were at least closed minded. But this is an emotional issue, and I think we all reacted emotionally.

There are good, educated people who examined the issues deeply and who have a real love for their fellow man - and find the death penalty a viable action, as it is currently applied in this society. They are not just Texans, and they are not simply self-centered idiots, and some of them even listen to your points-of-view, different as they are, and don't cast venom back at you. The world is big enough for differing perspectives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Amergin
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 07:57 PM

Guest, JoeBlowme, your compassion for those with mental disorders astounds me.

I am deeply shocked and saddened by this tragedy, but I can't help the feeling that people like myself who suffer from mental disorders such as severe depression, anxiety, and whatnot, will be further stigmatised by this event. Folks already do not understand depression....they certainly will be less understanding of it now....

This woman needs a hospital not a needle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 08:20 PM

What sickens me is the hypocrisy that allows Mooh to sign off a vengeful remark with the word "peace."

Who says a crime's been committed, Mooh? Let's wait and see. Just a guess, but I think it's going to become clear that Andrea Yates was out of her mind when she killed the kids. The fact that she had already been prescribed haloperidol is one indication that she has a serious psychotic illness.

Even if she's convicted, no indication so far that the prosecution is even looking for a punishment. Looks like you might have to organise a lynching, Joe. But I'm afraid you're not going to get any support from the family of the victims.

I'm surprised no-one's thought it worth mentioning that Russell Yates - the the father of the victims - is standing by his wife, which to me is just incredible. So are all other members of the family. Russell Yates said he recognises that Andrea has a psychotic illness, and is going to try to help her through it. He puts some of the people here to shame, and my heart goes out to him.

I go along with Little Hawk on depression, but would just add that in this case it is the clinical variety, and not likely to have been caused by events, environmental factors or the fact that "nobody would listen," as Sorcha suggested.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 08:32 PM

Hadn't seen your second post, Jed. I read Little Hawk's post as a criticism of those Texans who have been demanding the death penalty specifically for Andrea Yates.

To me such people are beneath contempt, but if you think they're worth defending, maybe you'd address LH's point and tell us exactly what purpose would be served by killing this woman.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 08:33 PM

GUEST Joe - Gosh, that's a pretty compelling argument! I may just have to rethink my whole position on this. Breaking into someone's home and cleaning it? Definitely a sign of insanity. I saw someone throw a whole bunch of litter out of their car on the street yesterday, and after thinking about it for awhile (it was blowing around in the wind) I took a little walk to the grocery and picked up as much of it as I could find on the way and put it in one of the trash cans.

I should probably be executed...or at least committed to the loony bin. I mean, hell, it wasn't my litter, was it? It wasn't my road, either. Who the hell do I think I am anyway? People like me, I mean really ignorant people, should simply not be tolerated any longer. I am scum.

I'm gonna go and turn myself in right after I finish posting this...thanks for opening my eyes.

(not that I don't get what you actually meant, I just thought I should respond in an appropriately respectful manner to it...)

Jed - I may have overspoken my case, cos the thing hit me emotionally. I've suffered a lot of depression in my own life, though it has never driven me to commit a destructive act...it just saps my energy and grinds everything to a halt. It's really an awful thing to go through.

Accordingly, I guess I felt for the woman more than some people might. I also feel terrible for the children, but there's nothing anyone can do for them anymore at this point.

GUEST Joe said that "something must be done" after such an incident. Well, the fact is that really nothing can be done, except to arrest the person and take her off the street (so to speak) and then decide from there, and that has been done. It's before these incidents that something must be done. Afterward is too late.

That's what makes people so mad...they just can't accept that they are powerless to make things right again...nobody likes feeling powerless.

As usual, I thank God I am not a politician...but just another folkie on the forum.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 08:35 PM

"For better or for worse, in sickness and in health." Bully for the husband, I say - this is the worse, all right, and the sickness too. The one good point about this whole story, I think, is that he realizes that. She has a much better chance for some kind of recovery with his support - although (in total ignorance of any facts) one does wonder where he was with his support the last 7 years).

Also, the clinical variety of depression can easily be triggered by events, environmental factors or the fact that nobody would listen. The predisposition isn't usually enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 09:54 PM

Mrzzy, right now this guy could probably manage without inuendos from people who know fuck-all about it.

"Support" doesn't matter a damn, if what is needed is vinegar and brown paper. Just like TLC goes only so far, if what's needed is a triple bypass. We've been slower to undertand mental illness than physical, but we surely know enough by now to realise that both will sometimes respond to clinical treatment, and nothing else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 10:30 PM

Well, Little Hawk, I know you would understand if I say, besides all of the sadness and feeling of disbelief that something like this could actually happen, the only way I can explain it, for myself, besides the actual physical and mental problems she obviously has, that in my belief system, we choose the families we are born into and we hope to work through any karmic lessons necessary in order to achive soul growth and move on i the next incarnation.

It is difficult to imagine a soul choosing to come into a life where it would be murdered by its mother; that seems like pretty "heavy-duty" karma, but I do believe there are reasons for things happening that we can only hope to someday know.

On the mundane side, I feel a great horror and sadness; it seems so monstrous, even knowing she is mentally ill. My heart goes out to her, her family, and the children, esp. the 7 year old.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 10:54 PM

Thanks, Kat. I am familiar with those concepts, but I sometimes hesitate to introduce them...for fear of triggering a very rabid response from people who don't believe in such things.

But, yes...and that is why I try not to judge the person in any ultimate sense. I am simply not equipped to judge them, because I don't know the whole story.

I'm still trying to understand why I chose my family, as a matter of fact. It's been a pretty tough ride, though it surely could have been a lot worse...

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 11:07 PM

I just plain give up. I thought I was with Fionn until his last post; I thought I was with Little Hawk until his last post.........now I discover I am not really with either of them, just with Andrea.
<>BR>

I will NEVER forget the night I called my mother and told her "if you love these children come get them because tomorrow I am calling Family Services. I just can't deal with it alone anymore". I was not a Single Mother, the Mr. was just away at a Cop Academy for 12 weeks.....one child was 6 and ADD, the other was in the Terrible Twos....

I think it is possible that I could have done this then if I had no support system as Andrea seems not to have had. I only had two children, she had 5.

Executing Andrea will NOT stop the problem!! I don't know just where to go from here, but your friend Sorcha has come awfully close to just choking the living shit out of her children, and she might have if not for a big network of support.........


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Amergin
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 11:26 PM

I'm with you, Scorch....people who are prone to depression and other disorders tend to crack when too much shit gets piled on them....I know I have been to that brink myself....and in two cases have actually broken down....I think dear hubby had a bit to do with it....now that he has suffered this loss, he feels remorse....and you are right, Fionn, no one here knows shit about this particular situation....but remember you are coming off as an authority on this case yourself....remember that before you criticise others for their speculations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Áine
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 11:27 PM

Dear Little Hawk,

Speaking as a native Texan, and one who is very proud of her Texas heritage, I'd like you to look at the song in this thread that I posted a year and a day ago, so you'll understand that all Texans aren't cut from the same cloth.

-- Áine


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Fiolar
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 07:35 AM

Who can really understand the state of mind of someone who goes to the extreme that the Texas woman did. Was there a previous history of neglect or depression? Was the woman suffering from post-natal depression as I understand one of the children was quite young. What was the husband doing to support her? Questions and more questions. As a psychiatric nurse manager in a British hospital, one of most distressing things I and the nursing staff on one of my wards had to contend with was the case of the wife of an American service man who had killed her two chidren in cold blood. Having spent some time in prison, she was then admitted to us for psychiatric assessment and reports. My problem as a manager was not with her but with the staff who needed a lot of support and counselling as to how to deal with a child killer. To the best of my recollection, she never showed any signs of remorse. She went from us to a hospital in the States. My sympathy is with the Texan woman when the enormity of what she has done finally penetrates the shell. God help her.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: alison
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 08:50 AM

Post natal depression is a terrible thing.... and can change from depression to psychotic VERY quickly..... I've seen it happen in hospital.... I've seen 2 police landrovers bring in one woman who had gone completely over the edge....... someone I knew... who seemed to be OK actually filled the bath with water and was ready to drown her two toddlers, but thankfully walked out of the house instead and found someone to talk to...

unfortunately people tend to ignore the real problem "its not post natal depression - she just needs a good sleep!"... she probably does, but it won't help the depression..... there is still a stigma attached to any sort of mental illness so people don't get the support they need.... and the kindly relatives who may see the signs try to muddle on through.....

I feel so sorry for the family concerned......

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: harpgirl
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 10:55 AM

...having treated several young mothers successfully,(thank God) for post-partum psychotic depression, I agree with the compassionate remarks made about this tragic unfolding...these mothers are also very isolated; by distance from supportive family, by rigid religious beliefs, by role division which prevents sharing of responsiblities,and often lacking meaningful community support.

Psychotic depression can completely unbutton anyone and make them think their children are demons from hell and must be eliminated. No one is really exempt from becoming psychotic given the "right" combination of stressors.

I think these young people's families', their community, their church, and institutions ostensibly in place to help such familes have failed, to a very tragic end.

Please consult professionals if this could happen to you...And remember, a very enlightened individual who once walked this earth would extend forgiveness to this woman....hg


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: guinnesschik
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 12:01 PM

It would truly be interesting to know the husband's role in all this. How much did he help with the raising of these five children? How much support did he offer his wife when she really needed it? The fact that he's going to "stand by" (his words from a news report) her now comes a bit late in the game, if you ask me. There is no way ANY amount of treatment would assuage the guilt and horror this poor woman must feel at her own actions. There is no treatment that will repair the damage done to her psyche. At this point in Andrea Yates' life, an execution would be a mercy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: MAV
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 12:23 PM

First Think about the Murdered Children!!

Excuses, excuses, excuses!!!...All criminals are now either mentally retarded or temporarily insane.

After all, how could anyone in their right mind knock off a liquor store etc...?

This is not the first time on the national scene. Remember Susan Smith? Her new boyfriend didn't like the kids, so she strapped them into the backseat and then drove into a lake....blaming a mythical "black man"?

We had a case here in Maine, the most liberal state in the US, where a woman killed her three kids, got "treatment", was declared sane and was released. She had three more kids with the same husband and then killed them and herself as well.

We had another horrifying case here where a couple of "born again" but otherwise psychotic "Christians" BAKED their little girl in the kitchen OVEN!!! They thought she was possessed. One cop who responded to the call said he thought it was a doll that he was looking at. Think of his nightmares.

That woman is now out and living in the same community.

Time for a reality check. These are all symptoms of the pop culture's cheapening of life, a woman's right to kill her children (and a man's right to say "Get rid of it..bitch)

THROW UP!!!

These people need civil commitment to an institution until they are no longer a threat to themselves or society, then.....

LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE!!!

Being childless (not by design), I otherwise have no strong opinions on the topic.

mav out


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 12:29 PM

Aine - Thanks. I definitely don't paint all Texans with the same brush. Your song is well appreciated.

Sorcha - I'm curious...what threw you about my last post? Reincarnation references? It's not something I can prove to anyone, and I wouldn't presume to, but it is something I have no doubt of at this point (that I've lived other lives).

I can understand if someone doesn't believe in it, though. I certainly didn't at an earlier stage in this life, but then I had some odd experiences and changed my mind.

Anyway, I'm just wondering.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: JedMarum
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 01:21 PM

A few final thoughts;

This issue is NOT the same as the Susan Smith or other recent high profile cases. This woman is clearly a lost soul and had no obvious self-serving motivations which led her to this unthinkable act.

There is actually much compassion for this woman, horrible as her deeds were. There are a few angry people calling for exceution and/or torture (witness a comment or two above) but many more address the extreme sadness of the event, and recognize the utter madness of the murders and the woman who committed them. The press may have hyped the volume of death penalty calls - but I think it is clear that most people (even Texans) are simply shocked and saddened by the event - and willing to the let the legal process work throuh in its own time.

Standing by his wife? Yes, this is a good thing, but I can't help wonder where he was standing before this ... and why he didn't see it coming. I cannot help but wonder how he can so easily talk to the press about his feelings and why he doesn't just act his support for her without explaining his position to the inquiring world ... but I cannot know the details. Maybe there's more there then I can see.

And if somehow the death penalty is the result of the legal process, I expect its application would be a mercy, and her husband and family could continue their support of her through this end. I would. But it doesn't look like that will be the direction this one goes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Women who drowned her 5 children
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 04:53 PM

Well well well I seemed to have upset the applecart.Littlehawk Ok I guess I was to harsh on you being a compassionate person. I think if I had put it as Mav did it would of came across better.SeanM No By doing so you show that if you kill someone you in turn will be killed an eye for an eye.Amergin I know a few people with mental illnesses who have not killed anyone I am sorry If you felt I lumped All of them together. My niece is bi-polar,my uncle has post traumatic syndrome,my older sister has suffered from severe depression and the list gos on.SeanM you know you said about killing her husband as well, this does raise some questions where was he when she drowned the children,did he know of her mental condition,and if he was away when she did this then she had enough reasoning to do it while he was away.Ok now I am ready for the retort so let it fly


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