Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?

Subject: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: GUEST,A Concerned Friend
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 10:39 PM

Sorry to post a non-music thread, and sorry to post as a GUEST when I really am a member-- Can't think of a group of people who I trust more for direction than you all here, but I don't want to risk endangering the person I am concerned about--

So--a woman that I work with on an ongoing basis, and have come to respect and care about,came to a meeting about four months ago with a lot more make up on than usual--in the light I could tell that she had a black eye, and some small cuts on other parts of her face--She nearly broke into tears several times, and when we asked (another woman, who had been in an abusive relationship was also there) she assured us that she was fine--since then, more black eyes, and other bruises. The three of us have had lunch a few times, gone shopping--but she doesn't say a word, and seems to know when we are about to say something and withdraws--

I don't know what do do, what to say, etc. A few years back, worked with, and became friends with another woman who had trouble with her husband--one night he nearly killed her, and my spouse and I arranged to get her into a shelter and get a restraining order--they got back together, and neither of them has ever spoken to us again--

So please, share what you can--I am so afraid for her, I dread seeing her on Mondays, because am afraid of what may have happened over the weekend--

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: MMario
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 11:01 PM

A tough situation - I once had a co-worker come running into the restaraunt where we worked, in her nightgown with her husband in pursuit - she had run the 8 blocks from her house in December,(in upstate NY!) mainly to draw him away from the kids - a neighbor got the kids out of the house while he was still ranting about the restaraunt - and the crew took turns never leaving her alone for two days while social services got their act in gear -

but she was ready at that point to both leave him and press charges.

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 11:01 PM

Hi - I'd say that shelter is the first place to ask. You can talk with them on a confidential basis and give them specific information. If the victim is an adult and is not willing to cooperate, there's not much you can do from a legal standpoint.
It's certainly a commonplace problem. I do volunteer work at a women's center, and many of our guests are victims of abuse. Last month, one was shot and killed in a domestic violence incident. Our center is in the poor part of town, but domestic violence happens everywhere.
-Joe offer-

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 11:07 PM

I don't know enough to speak with authority, but from those I have met in such straits, the problem is that they are blinded by some kind of overwhelming connection to the abuser. It may be emotional overwhelm, or some kind of special sensation which the victim believes she depends on, such that it makes all the punishment worth bearing. The problem is like a fanatacism or a cult-like obsession, except that it is a personal one-to-one blindness instead of a group.

Unless and until there is some kind of communication breakthrough, no alternative will be real enough to even consider. But for that to happen there has to be enough necessity to shift things a little, whether it comes from an accepted friend or because the instinct for survival finally rears up and asserts itself.

My effort would be to take her to lunch from work and try to cut through to the the simple reality that she is at risk of losing her life. Whoever she most trusts or could be brought to would have to take on the mission and give it every shot.

Failing that it's a call to the police department and social services. Hard to say on what evidence they would be willing to intercede.

A

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 11:13 PM

YOU can't do ANYTHING until SHE decides she has had enuf. A lot of women/people in this situation never decide that. You can only help her when she wants to help herself. Help herself for real!!

Right now, she is probably denying the situation and telling herself "but he loves me, and I love him". This could go on forever.

Be a friend and be ready for confidences when she is ready to share them. I've known many women who went back to "him" over and over and over and over....ad nauseum. Because he promised to change. Because of the children. Because I love him. Because he loves me. Because I have no money and can't support myself.

If you bring it up you will probably only piss her off--"NO, that is NOT happening!! HE would NOT do that to ME--I will no longer be your friend!" etc, etc. etc.

Mr. is on the Safe House board here--PM me if you wish.

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 11:22 PM

I'm with Joe.......Contact the shelter and report what you suspect or know and ask advice. Also in the U.S. most counties have a a branch of Social Welfare known generally as "Family and Children's Services." Again, I would contact them and report and ask advice (and as you know, children are truly affected by this stuff too).

It is unfortunate but true that until the woman takes a step, even a tiny one, nothing can happen legally. At that point everyone must be on-board to give her the support she needs on taking even that small action. A case of domestic abuse in my county ten years ago was classic. Everyone knew what was happening including the police. Everyone was trying to get the woman any help they could and she never would take the first step. Some never do. In this case, the result was the scalding death of a three year old child. Lots more to the story and as I had several of the kids in foster care, I'm all too familiar.

Get all the available advice and get the people that can help on board........Then, do whatever you can or that they suggest to get this woman to take a step. Prepare yourself for the absolute worst though........Sorry, but too often that is the result.

I'd wish you good luck, but luck doesn't enter into it. You have my best thoughts and wishes. May this one "go right."

Spaw

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: ddw
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 11:26 PM

I think Amos is bang on — there's not much you can do if the woman doesn't want help and it could be dangerous to press the matter. Either the abuser, the victim or both could turn on you and that can get pretty ugly.

When I was in grad school there was a couple in my social circle who, at a party one night, started a row. He punched her hard enough to knock her down, then grabbed her long blonde hair and literally started dragging her toward the door.

Fool that I was, I interceded — punch him, told him to let her go. The minute he did, she jumped up and attacked me with more venom than I'd ever seen. I've still got scars.

Found out later that the rough stuff was their foreplay and, because this was the first time he'd roughed her up in public, it was really a turn-on.

Don't get me wrong — I'm not advocating domestic violence or not caring if it goes on. Just trying to say it's best to tread VERY lightly around that kind of thing until you know what's going on and who wants something done about it.

david

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 11:33 PM

Lots of cross posting here, but the gist is the same. I'm not amazed, just sad..........Helluva' world ain't it?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 11:39 PM

If your workplace is large enough, maybe they could sponsor a workshop on domestic violence at which she wouldn't feel singled out.

Also, see if the local shelter or police have any pamphlets which you could leave around the office, in the coffee area or even give to her, if you feel it appropriate. The pamphlets should explain what abuse is and what resources are available if and when she recognises what is going on and is ready to try getting out. With luck, there will be information on a "safe" house where she could go at a moment's notice.

As the three of you continue to have lunch, etc., perhaps the one with the experience could casually talk about her former days and what gave her the courage to get away.

These are all just suggestions; I have no idea if they would work in this particular situation.

Encourage her independence: does she have her own checking acct.? Her own ATM? Talk in general about how important it is to women, and their children, to have the security of independence.

Here are some websites which may help you and/or her, when she is ready:

BrokenSpirits.com

Practical Advice on leaving

good article

Safety Plan

Good luck and good for you for being a caring friend. Please keep us posted and PM, if you'd like. I did a series of articles on this, in Wyoming, a few years back, with extensive research. It is not an easy thing.

kat

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 11:44 PM

It's what I do for a living. Contact the Department of Human Services, in most states the State will assume the role of prosecutor if the woman will file a complaint. Keep reaching out to her. Many of the folks I work with stay in the relationship - but I work hard at empowering them with a "lock the abuser up" and they'll stop mode. Usually the abuser does stop after getting busted once. Stay with her and keep reaching is the only thing I can tell you.

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: mousethief
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 11:45 PM

Most victims of long-term abuse are held in place by fear and what can best be described as a form of brainwashing by their abusers; it plays on low self-esteem, feeding it and crushing out any sense of personal worth. It is vital that your friend come to believe that she doesn't deserve to be battered; but it could be a long time for her to get there. I'm not at all sure how a coworker goes about helping a woman regain her self-esteem. Definitely this is something to ask the people at your local shelter about.

Meanwhile, educate yourself. There are many good books about spousal abuse. Look at some, ask the shelter which ones they recommend. Then, when she's ready to say something or do something, you will be educated enough to know what to do.

here is a list of books at Amazon.com that is recommended by the Wichita "Women For Women" group.

Good luck!

Alex

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 11:49 PM

All of you butters-in, good for you. And I'm not sure that there is nothing to be done legally, many many states now have statutes that allow for charges to be pressed by the State, not the abused person, to protect the abused from their own fear of reporting the abuse. But the abuse has to be proven, like if the cops are called DURING a disturbance and find the one kicking the other they can arrest the one, even if the other then claims that they don't want to press charges. I don't think any cops would do it on your sayso, but if sitting her down and MAKING HER JUSTIFY HER DECISION TO STAY, after of courese sitting her down and MAKING HER ADMIT TO THE ABUSE or convince you that it isn't (maybe she's taking boxing lessons and doesn't want you to know), then I would go ahead and call social services. You can also report it to a medical person, I think they have to report it, like go to HER local ER and mess with her privacy if you can, alert them to watch for it if she comes in if you can't... if she hates you later, it's better than if you didn't try and he kills her, no?

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: GUEST,A Concerned Friend
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:18 AM

I appreciate the input--I really do, and thank you for being honest. There is no easy fix for this, is there? I have read every every word here, much more closely than I ever do, and the situation is getting a lot clearer in my mind, but not in a very good way.

Both of them have good educations, and both do the same thing, but in different places. Neither works directly with abuse issues, but, ironically, either one might be the one of first professionals that someone trying to deal with this problem would approach--I suppose tied in with everything else is a fear of losing their jobs and their place in the community--and they were just married, so this is supposed to be a happy time. What a cruel world this is!

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 06:12 AM

A good point was made anecdotaly. There were kids involved, and the Mother ran 8 blocks mostly to get the enraged man away from them.

Are there kids in *this* situation? If so, step in. It is rare that this sort of abuse is reserved for the woman alone.

Hell, even if there are not kids, call the authorities and find out what you can do. You may lose a friend, as she might be angry at you for having done so, but would you rather lose a friend to the grave?

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: GeorgeH
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 06:55 AM

Joe's advice was sound . . talk to anyone with expertise and understanding who isn't going to intervene without the woman's agreement.

Beyond which . . Don't call in "the authorities", in any shape or form . . all you'll do, most likely, is alienate the victim from you, leaving her still open to the abuse but without the support of your friendship.

Try to see a bit more of her than you have in the past, and to make sure her other reliable friends do the same - so if she reaches a point of wanting/needing to talk there's an improved chance of her having the opportunity to do so.

Never lose sight of the fact that, ultimately, it's her life and so her choice; however difficult it is for you, denying her that choice is no help to her. She's going to detect folks' concern for her, but try to tread gently so as not to pressure her.

If you judge you can get away with it and if a suitable opportunity presents itself then you might gently offer practical "help opportunities" - "If you feel it would help you can ring me any time" (clearly only if that's realistic!), or even contact details for local "help" organisations, if you feel she might not know them. But go very gently . . .

Prair, if you have such beliefs. And, above all, patience and sensitivity.

Good luck!

G.

G.

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 09:07 AM

Does she have family members with any balls? Would she or they be willing to hire a couple of guys to give him a taste of his own medicine? One of my daughters married a sociopath who was also a mysoginist and pathological liar. I didn't know until long after she divorced him how he had treated her, because she knew what I would do. These bastards are always cowards and with the right suggestion from someone who could take him apart, he would think twice before repeating that act. Apes like that give the title "Man" a bad name. He's not a man, he's only a male.

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: GUEST,A Concerned Friend
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 09:30 AM

Some of you are suggesting what really is a rather violent and forceful intervention--as well meaning as this is, verbal browbeating and police visits only would force her into a deeper and more focussed kind of denial--Even if that would work in some situations, as I said, they are both professionals with advanced degrees and board certification--she works closely with most of the agencies mentioned above, hardly the sort of person that anyone can sit down and give a stern talking to--To suggest that she might have this kind of problem is not something that a lot of people would want to deal with--even people who usually deal with this sort of thing--

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: GUEST,Anon.
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 09:47 AM

GeorgeH and mousethief are totally right. You must not forget that it is her life, and all the choices must be hers. Outside interference (no matter how well intentioned) will probibly do more harm than good.

I speak from my experience of being the second husband of a woman who was abused by her first. (Reason for Anon. sign in).

It is extremely unlikely that the only abuse is physical. If a victim didn't tolerate physical abuse, then they wouldn't be a victim more than once. As mousethief said, there tends to be a lot of mental abuse too. It is that more than anything that not only makes a person fear reporting, but ashamed and embarressed to even admit what going on. You have to tread very lightly, or your actions could alienate her.

My wife carries very few scars from her past experiences (none physical), and she now can not believe she allowed herself to be treated that way. That is the point. She allowed it to continue, until such time as she made the decision to get herself out of it. Nobody else could make that decision for her. She never feels physically threatened now, but can get very upset if she feels I am being critical. It's the mental scars last much longer.

Anon.

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: GUEST,Dr. G
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 09:50 AM

GUEST,

Did your daughter "know what you would do" because you had done it to her? Adult victims of abuse usually come from abusive families. A most of the time, they don't even think about what is happening to them as abuse, and most of the time, they don't even know how they feel about it, because their focus is dealing with a rage-o-holic who is so consumed with their own anger that they are not even aware of the impact that it is having on the people they love--

Concerned Friend, there is no way that you can resolve this situation. You can be a friend, and especially in this case, to show your friendship by being there, and not making an issue of what she is suffering--until she is ready to deal with the situation herself, she'll always defend her husband, and you will become the bad guy--the best hope that you have is, by staying close, you'll eventually gain her confidence.

As I said, you cannot resolve this situation, this woman has not confided in you, you know about the abuse because you have seen the results. Others have seen them, too, and, especially since of the position that this person is in, are feeling the same concerns and the same powerlessness that you feel.

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: SharonA
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 10:20 AM

"To suggest that she might have this kind of problem is not something that a lot of people would want to deal with--even people who usually deal with this sort of thing-- "

Kudos to you, then, Concerned Friend, for wanting to help!

Kinda sounds like "a stern talking to" (in private) may be in order, if she's feeling too proud to seek help because of her position (the "I'm SUPPOSED to be helping THEM, I'm not supposed to BE them" syndrome). Let's face it; she'll see any subtle, gentle approaches coming a mile off, because of her training in doing the very same thing for others, and will be ready to rebuff them. If she tries to brush you off with an "I'm fine", and she's obviously NOT, tell her so! Tell her she's not fooling anybody!

I don't suggest "browbeating", as in nagging repeatedly or coming across as yet another abuser, but it sounds as if she needs to be looked in the black-eye by someone who can say "You know (in your head, if not in your heart) what you must do about this in order to stop it. I will help you do it. Now, let's do it." Be the voice of reason... and action!

If necessary, point out to her that her credibility as a professional is at stake (i.e. how can she help others if she won't let herself be helped?), and that the experience of being helped will only make her better able to help others in the future (all the degrees and certifications in the world can't substitute for THAT).

SharonA

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: LR Mole
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 10:50 AM

Yeah...advanced degrees, professional position, personal charm, even genius--they get you no cards in games like this. Sadness and shrugging sometimes look the same. But all any of us can do is our best, as we understand it. No one is alone.

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: GeorgeH
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 10:59 AM

SharonA . . Sorry, but no, no, no - don't suggest her credibility is at stake .. Part of her problem is (very likely, I guess nothing's certain in these matters) low self esteem. ANYTHING which can push that down further is harmful to her, however well-intentioned. If there's anything you can do to boost her self-esteem then go for that . . it might even help her, slowly, to the point where she can decide to re-order her life.

Similarly, I'd suggest stern is out as well. If you're going to achieve anything then the approach has to be gently, gently. AND you have to accept that the chances are that your efforts won't make any difference that you can perceive.

People often have to fool themselves in order to preserve some vestige of self-respect . . taking that away from them isn't helpful.

Forget all notions of justice. That's not within your grasp . . If you've a generous spirit you simply have to stamp on your natural feelings of anger, etc. and do what little you can to support the friend, until she makes the decision to change her circumstances.

The only time we were involved in this sort of situation with a mature adult (if you know what I mean) the lady in question finally got as far as finding and paying a deposit on a flat, to move out from the guy. Then she totally changed her mind and decided to stay put! And, pretty well, stopped having anything to do with us.

George

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 11:02 AM

NO! she did not learn it from me. If you really are a doctor, you should know that a sociopath can fool almost everyone. He fooled her, and everyone else around except me. I pegged him for a liar the first time I saw him. I did not know he was also an abuser. My daughter was never abused at home, but, she did have a need to prove me wrong when I warned her about his lies. She now admits I was right. Actually, she was not so much afraid of what I'd do to him, as where I would end up if I did go after him.

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: GUEST,A Concerned Friend
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 11:57 AM

SharonA,

This is a person of great personal dignity, very professional, very knowledgeable--since she is the "expert" even the people who employ her must defer to her. She speaks softly, but what she says goes. Maybe it is possible to sit an office chum down and give her a stern lecture, and you might be able to talk that way to a fellow waitress, but believe me, even others in her profession talk to each other with deference--LRMole, you are so right. In this case, the degrees, her position, really isolate her--

Dr.G, thank you for you thoughts, but please, don't flame anyone, even if it is to make a point, and GUEST and others--I appreciate your interest and enthusiasm, but talking about beating someone up just makes it worse--

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: Paul Mitchell
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:23 PM

Hi there. I'm a youth worker who works with people aged 14 - 25 years of age in England. I work mostly with people outside of society, or in danger of finding themselves there. I come across domestic violence from a couple of angles, both the person/s being abused directly and those who witness it.

I go with Joe and the rest. Contact the experts. There is something else going on within this process though, and that is you, how you feel and how you deal with those feelings. Well played on being willing to discuss it. I would encourage you to recognise that you are hurt by this situation too. You have a right to some healing and some help.

Good luck with it. Often there are no winners. Often nothing we do works, for a variety of reasons. Sometimes you plant a little acorn that doesn't look like it's done anything, but later on (perhaps months, perhaps years) it turns out to be a big sod off tree that no one knew was there and that proves bloody useful!

Paul

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: mg
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:37 PM

So far I am with Sharon. It is more complex because it is a job situation, but to molly-coddle someone in this situation only infantilizes them. As a grown woman, obviously able to support herself, she has some moral choices to make. Especially since she is in a position of leadership. She doesn't have to wait until her self esteem blossoms. She could be pregnant by then. Let her know you have strong suspicions of what is going on and if it is going on, she needs to get out of the situation. "Oh but I love him (her)". "Oh but he is not like this except when he has been drinking." So? mg

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:41 PM

Mary Garvey, how many domestic abuse victims do you know? Your advice is very harmful (not to mention condescending). Please do some reading on the topic.

Alex

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: GeorgeH
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:47 PM

Mary g

Remember - it's her life, not yours. You're supposed to be a friend, and even if not, playing at God is never a good idea.

How do you respond to people telling you what to do "because I know better than you do!".

G.

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 01:07 PM

I disagree with gentle. I had lots of people gently trying to get me out of my abusive relationship, and it didn't work. I'd have appreciated (perhaps not at the time) had those efforts been more strenuous. I also disagree that anything social can be one person's problem - I think it IS my problem if my friend has a problem. It DOES concern me, it IS my business, and I would do everything I could to remedy the problem which is shared with my friend. Also, the above point about abuse not being only for the adults if there are children around didn't make the point strongly enough - if there are kids, then they ARE being abused by virtue of witnessing the abuse between their parents, and being raised to consider it normal. If Mom is whacking Dad in front of the kids, that IS child abuse. Morally, ethically, psychologically, if not exactly legally.

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 01:08 PM

Ever hear of fighting fire with fire? I'd be inclined to inform her family and let them handle it. Guest sounds like the Don Quixote type.

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 01:21 PM

Before this one gets out of hand..........

CONCERNED FRIEND:

Please go talk to all of the "pros" in your area as has been suggested and take their advice. Report what you know and what you suspect. Different agencies and police departments in different areas are going to have differing ways then what may be suggested here. Based on past experience, this county is very aggressive.....others are not. Go get their advice and see what they can do and what they suggest for you. At best we're all just jawboning and offering support to you. GO SEE THE PEOPLE IN YOUR AREA.......please?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: rea
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 01:31 PM

it's been said, but i think that the important thing is to help with self esteem, even if you can't figure out anythign to do. give compliments (real ones), smile, positive feedback, etc. And provide info. one of my good friends in high school's stepdad was nuts and abusive (and i mean crazy, but thats a detail), and we let the daugter stay at our house and gev her numbers to give to her mom for shelters. those are the authorities you want to call - police can do nothing unless she presses charges or they catch him in the act. reiterating: do what you must, but support her above all.

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: GUEST,A Concerned Friend
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 01:59 PM

Mary Garvey,

Molly-coddle? What do you mean by that? To me it assumes that I, or someone else, has some sort of parental, supervisory power over this person, and that we are tolerating unacceptable behavior and that we should put our foot down--no one is in a position to do that with any adult, and especially not with someone that they have a professional relationship.

We have worked together, on the same effort, for a couple of years. Her work has been the most important factor in our team accomplishing what it has-- and working with us is one of her responsibilities, but not the only one. Other people who have had her same role in the past have done a lot less, so part of the reason that I care so much about this is that she has put herself on the line for us on many occasions.

If I overstep, not could she close the door on our friendship, but she could cut back her work with us, she could even remove herself entirely from our project, and our efforts fall apart, there will be considerable suffering and hardship, and it will affect many people.

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: GeorgeH
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 02:07 PM

Concerned friend . .

I don't think you need our help or advice; you seem to have this well worked out for yourself. My (totally sincere) complements to you, and good luck to you and your unfortunate friend. The fact that she has friends/colleages like you does, at least, mean that the situation could be even worse.

Of course, if you overstep not only do you lose the friendship etc. but not a lot is achieved!

Beyond that, I think everything that can usefully be said has been said.

I'm sure the good wishes and kind thoughts of all of us here, whatever our opinions, are with you and your friend.

G.

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: SharonA
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 02:11 PM

Concerned Friend sez: "This is a person of great personal dignity, very professional, very knowledgeable--since she is the "expert" even the people who employ her must defer to her. She speaks softly, but what she says goes ...even others in her profession talk to each other with deference ...the degrees, her position, really isolate her-- "

Or she's isolated herself. Sounds like she doesn't let ANYONE get close to her... except the guy who you think is hitting her. If he is abusing her, he's certainly taken advantage of being inside the wall she's built around herself. "In the arena", so to speak.

If this lady is on the verge of tears and has NO ONE to cry to because EVERYONE walks a wide circle around her, deferring to her, I wish SOMEONE would talk to her!!!!!!!!! My God, how sad this is to read! Doesn't she have ANY friends she can confide in?? C'mon, now, you're calling yourself her friend; do you at least know a CLOSE friend of hers who knows how to get inside her armor, some non-deferential person with whom she can discuss this?

SharonA

P.S. – The reason I'm advocating doing SOMETHING is because I once had a neighbor in an adjoining apartment who had a terrible problem with drugs, left her baby daughter alone till all hours to go get high... and I chose the "hands-off, none of my business" non-approach. One day, she baby-sat her cousin's infant; she set him on a mattress on the floor next to an electric baseboard heater, with no pillows to keep him from rolling. Then she turned the thermostat ALL the way up, and passed out. You guessed it; the baby rolled off the mattress and against the heater, burned and died. I still hear that young woman's screams and cries, and I still wonder: What if I'd at least TRIED to get help for her when I saw the warning signs?????????????????

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: SharonA
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 02:16 PM

Oooooh, that was tough to post. I'm still shaking...

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: SharonA
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 03:34 PM

Concerned Friend also sez: "A few years back, worked with, and became friends with another woman who had trouble with her husband--one night he nearly killed her, and my spouse and I arranged to get her into a shelter and get a restraining order--they got back together, and neither of them has ever spoken to us again--"

Perhaps they wouldn't have gotten back together if they hadn't had that period of separation. We have no idea under what conditions they reunited; perhaps new limits of behavior were set and are being followed so that the cycle of abuse was broken. We also have no idea whether they're not contacting you because they're angry or because they're busy enjoying each other now and you simply remind them of a painful time in their relationship. But I infer from the words "neither of them" that both of them are still alive. Perhaps one or the other or both would not be, but for your action.

I can see where you would not want to sacrifice your project and all the hard work that this woman and you and your colleagues have done, for the sake of a "perhaps"... But you also said that she's put herself on the line for you on many occasions. Who puts him- or herself on the line for this woman?

SharonA

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 04:05 PM

The only good advice that anyone has given here is to speak to professionals... personal stories are all well and good, but every situation is different...

Seek help from people who KNOW, and are not just opinionated...

Good luck eh!

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: SharonA
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 05:20 PM

But this woman IS one of the professionals! Her husband is another!! Insidious, ain't it? Scary, too, to think that a professional in the field might also be an abuser (though,as you stated, Concerned Friend, neither works DIRECTLY with abuse cases). So I'm guessing that the professionals with whom you might speak are the ones who DO work directly with those cases.

I offer my personal story only to give my reason for holding the opinion that I hold. Thank you for asking for our opinions about this problem.

SharonA

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 05:55 PM

It will not hurt to mention your suspicions to her family. There may be more to this than meets the eye.. Hurting her spouse may curtail the violence, but it could also escalate it; and allow him time to hurt her in non visible ways. Please call a shelter for advice, but I agree with Kendall, if you know other adults in her family tell them your suspicions. The more people that suspect and know that there is a problem, the more likely it is to stop the violence. Good Luck. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 06:15 PM

It's true the profession can be a deterrent to reporting. My best friend was married to a respected attorney who mentally and emotionally abused her and their children. He was such a likeable person in public that no one would have believed her. As it was, she should have gone out of town for a divorce attorney and did finally wind up having her brother co-counsel with her in-town attorney because no one wanted to be on her side in the divorce. Even then, he wound up with everything except half of the time with the kids.

In my research I found it is sometimes much harder for a woman from a professional background or a woman from the middle to upper class to seek help as there is a public perception that abuse only happens in lower classes. She may have a very hard time believing it herself, let alone those she and her abuser mingle with on a social level. However, abuse knows no boundaries.

Good luck.

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 07:35 PM

A couple of people have asked whether there are children, and that's the crucial question. Please note, I'm not suggesting that Concerned Friend ought to tell us, I can see why she (I take it CF is a woman) mightn't want to give any details that might risk identifying the people involved on an open forum like this.

If there are children it changes things, because as Mrrzy said, a child in this sort of situation is being abused, even if there's no question of them being physically assaulted. The wishes of the mother become secondary to the needs of the child, in my view.

But if there are no children, and the woman has not cracks up to a state where she isn't capable of making decisions for herself, I think the advice that has been given to stand back has to apply. (If it was my daughter I'd probably want to go round and break his legs, but that's just a feeling, it wouldn't solve things, and could make them worse.)

Just one suggestion, and it might not be a good one. But, if she's a professional in the business, there'd be nothing inappropriate for colleagues to ask her for advice on dealing with a case like this.

I mean, if I was still a social worker, I can easily imagine that I might talk about this very case, which I have been reading about on the Mudcat, with colleagues. "How do you think the woman's colleagues ought to respond in this case I've been reading about?" I might ask, explaining that I was thinking of posting any interesting suggestions in the thread.

The hope would be that she might be able to look more objectively at what was happening in her own life. Or even that she might open up about it. (And of course, it's not impossible that it might actually be something different from what you are thinking, unlikely though that might be from what you have said.)

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 07:48 PM

The other option is to just stand by minding your own business until the bastard kills her.

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 07:52 PM

Sorry for the rant, I'm feeling rasty today. The thought of some coward calling himself a man brings out the side of me that seeks justice, and the side that brings out the protector. Nature gave us superior strength to provide for and protect the women and children, and when some creep turns it against them, it is more than just a case of mis use of power.

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 07:56 PM

Or bullshitting about it here until he does.......

Anything happen yet "Concerned Friend?" called any of the shelter/agencies/police and reported this and asked for advice? Keep us posted huh?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: Peg
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 12:22 AM

I believe in a direct aproach, dammit.

Ask her, flat out, in the ladies' room or in front of others at lunch, "Hey, I've noticed you've had a lot of black eyes lately. What's going on?"

Yeah, you might embarrass her, yeah, she might turn from you and try to avoid you.

But you just might make her realize that her life is fucked up and she needs to change it before someone ends up badly injured or dead.

He hits you once, shame on him.

He hits you twice, shame on you.

And shame on ANYONE who thinks they should ignore it and let the woman take care of it herself. Christ, do any of you know the statistics on domestic abuse in your states? Anyone know the number of women MURDERED by their spouses each year? And you're talking about not stirring things up at the water cooler???

I grew up in a abusive household, and believe me I think it is wrong to blame the victim, but adults oughta know better than to let other adults smack 'em around. Still, it can be difficult for a woman to extract herself from such situations. That is why helpful agencies exist.

Unless of course it's their idea of sex play, in which case, the less said, the better...but I have the feeling it's much, much worse than that, based on what's been said.

She's getting beat up regularly. This is no time for wait and see, people.

Gimme the guy's number if all else fails...

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: GUEST,A Concerned Friend
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 02:23 AM

No, there are no children. Newlyweds, as I said. Also, the families are all far away, and neither has many roots in the area--a very isolated situation. As I said, we have tried to bring her into our social circle, but cancels often at the last minute, or just doesn't show.

I have taken some steps--there is an organization that works with victims and potential victims of abuse, and I am making arrangements for a sideways "professional" connection, sort of the way Kevin suggested above, she'll get to see what they offer, ostensibly as a resource for her professional use--so she can learn about all of her options without having to admit anything. They'll know in advance that she has a problem, of course--we'll see what happens.

SharonA, your story is a painful and disturbing one--we are all torn between a fear of doing the wrong thing, and a fear of doing nothing--

As to the other couple, she never made it to the shelter. He got her back with a cheap trick--he got drunk (or maybe just drunker) and rammed his car into a wall as she was leaving the apartment, and she sat by him in the hospital for weeks while he recovered--we just heard that they are still together, but she never sees any of her old friends--

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: Peg
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 11:10 AM

good luck, Concerned; a little gentle intervention sounds sorely needed.

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 12:02 PM

A general point about "intervening" when the person who is geting hurt doesn't want it. (This isn't directed particularly at thec situation we've ben taklking about.)

The only things that matter about intervening is that it should helps. There are some situations where there just isn't any way of intervening that isn't more likely to make things worse - increase isolation, precipitate a tragedy etc etc.

In which case, you just have to stand back, and be ready to help when help is possible. And awful things can happen in the meantime.

Maybe it might make people feel better to have intervened. "I did everything I could." But making yourself feel better about it isn't the point.

Subject: RE: Suspect Physical Abuse--What to do?
From: GUEST,A Concerned Friend
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 05:37 PM

Kevin,

I think it is ironic that some people deal with abuse situation by acting out their own feelings of frustration and anger without thinking about the damage that it can do, when the real problem in abuse situations is that someone is acting out their own feelings of frustration and anger without any sensitivity to the damage that it does.

My first concern is not to make things any worse, and, as I pointed out, there are a lot of people who could suffer from a mistake in judgement here.