Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 25 Jan 12 - 05:11 AM

I'm looking for the (missing!) 4th line of the 3rd verse in the Welsh-language chanty version, as presented by Stan Hugill in _Shanties From the Seven Seas_. He seems to have accidently omitted it. Anybody got it?

What's there:
3. Mae yn Nefyn gwrw llwyd
(Hob...)
Mae yn ddiod ac yn fwyd
(Can y ...)
Mi yfais inau lond fy mol
(Sian...)
????

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 25 Jan 12 - 11:55 AM

I have a book of Welsh songs published by the band Mabsant. Their version of Hob y Deri Dando is a song about being in love with a woman named Sian. That 'Johnny vac van' line is actually 'Siani fach fwyn.' I think it means 'small, fair Sian.'

(I'm pretty sure that Welsh f is pronounced like English v.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 25 Jan 12 - 02:14 PM

Gibb - that seems to be a Welsh version of the verse about the beer in Nevin, although why the beer should be grey (llwyd) I'm not sure. Have you looked on the other thread? If there's nothing there you could PM the aptly-named Sian, who's a Welsh speaker and knows this stuff.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: sian, west wales
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 08:34 PM

I've taken a quick look through a book of traditional verses of this sort and haven't found this particular one. I'll look a bit deeper and ask a few people. "Llwyd" can mean pallid, weak. It adds to the nonsense of these kind of verses; on one hand you're saying the beer is rubbish but on the other hand that it is meat and drink to people.

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 03:07 AM

Thank you very much, Sian, for looking (and thanks Pip for suggestion).

It seems then that maybe these chanty verses turned up by Hugill were rather incidental or one of a kind. And I presume no one has worked up a chanty version using Hugill's collection.

A related question: Does someone know where the current chanty version's verse, "I'll sing bass/you sing solo", originates? What/who is the particular song collection or artist that introduced it?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Mick Tems
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 11:14 AM

"I sing the bass and you sing the solo
Hob y deri dando
All about the clipper ship, the Marco Polo..."

J. Glyn Davies, a Liverpool University professor in the Celtic Department who was a friend of Stan Hugill, worked for The Cambrian Line, which sailed out of Liverpool docks. In his copious notes, he says that, whereas Liverpool shanty crews were basically thrown together with little chance of singing practice, North Wales sailors had a sense of community spirit; they grew up together and sang in chapel choirs together. The Cambrian Line employed Welsh masters, and Welsh became the working language on the ships, "except for Orders and shanties." Sadly, there were no Welsh-language shanties on board ships (apart from sea songs sung by the five-man crews out of Porthmadog and other Welsh ports), which inspired Davies to write Yn Harbwr Corc, Fflat Huw Puw and other classic shanties which have passed into the Welsh tradition.

The Cambrian Line also brought elderly ships which were past their prime, including the Red Jacket and the famous clipper Marco Polo - hence the ship's mention in Hob Y Deri Dando. I think that Stan collected the shanty from an Aberdyfi sailor; the folksong was in the Welsh language, but the shanty (for reasons which have been documented here) was in the English language.

Incidentally, I've always supposed that "Blaina" was the coal community high up in the Gwent valleys. In Welsh, Blaenau were the steep ends to the valleys - it could also mean Blaenau Ffestiniog!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 04:48 PM

Thanks, DrPrice.

So the "Marco Polo" verse comes out of Davies' writing then, or what?

Although Hugill was in conversation with Davies, Hugill's tone does not suggest to me that he understood the Welsh lyrics to his three Welsh chanties (Mochyn Du, Hob d Deri, Rownd yr Horn) as composed by Davies.

What sources tell us that Welsh crews never sang Welsh-language chanties? And why would that be the case if they are using the language for normal things? Seems like it would be the opposite way.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 05:13 PM

J.Glyn Davies in his introduction to Cerddi Huw Puw has a section titled Shanties And Sea Songs on Welsh Ships. There he says: "I have never heard a shanty with Welsh words; most of those I heard on Welsh ships appear, with varying degrees of differences, in Captain Whall's collection. I do not know of any Welsh sea songs of the type that bear that title in Captain Whall's book. There used to be plenty of ballads about shipwrecks round the Welsh coast...It was always the ballad singers wares...".

(If you'd like a copy of the intro - 4 pages - pm me an email address and I'll send you a scan of the full article).

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: sian, west wales
Date: 31 Jan 12 - 10:44 AM

OK. Found it. And this search shall now be filed under "Sod's Law".

I first looked through "Hen Benillion" (Old Verses) by T.H.Parry-Williams; more or less the standard source for these folk verses which are 'floaters' and very popular in traditional Welsh song. Hen Benillion has some 740+ of them and, although I couldn't find "Mae yn Nefyn gwrw llwyd" in the First Line Index I was pretty sure I'd seen verses with 'gwrw llwyd' before and it was quite common to change place names; so I went through ALL the first lines, and didn't find it.

I then remembered a rather newer book, "Ar Dafod Gwerin" by Tegwyn Jones but, as I've recently undertaken an overseas move, I had to find it first! Having found it, I then undertook the same process with its 1193 First Lines. Sod's Law: it was listing 1162 in the Index.

Yn Nhy^-Nant mae cwrw llwyd,
Mae yn ddiod, mae yn fwyd;
Mi a'i yfaf lond fy mol
Nes bydda i'n troi fel olwyn trol

In Ty^ Nant there is grey (pale) beer,
It is drink, it is food;
I go there to drink my belly full
Until I spin like a cart wheel.

(I place ^ AFTER letters over which it should appear.)

TJ notes that Ty^-Nant is (was?) a tavern between Cerrigydrudion and Corwen in North Wales; and in another version it's "Drws-y-Nant", so it's common to change the place name.

Dr Price, there is ONE Welsh shanty isn't there? I'll see if I can now find THAT book (J. Glyn) to verify. It's also worth noting that crews out of ports like Newport (Pembrokeshire), Aberaeron, etc in the 1800s sang hymns ... and crews were often from a single denomination (if not from a single family). I can't for the life of me remember where I picked that up.

Spiralling even farther from the original question, I was found myself on a 'fact-finding mission' in Ireland with a crew of people including a Mrs. Williams, minister's wife, from Fishguard. I mentioned that I was interested to see how many Welsh hymns there were involving storms at sea, tempests, crashing waves, etc. and thought it involved the maritime heritage. She said, 'no', it was because of the Welsh religious orientation towards the Old Testament, and the Jewish attitude (fear mostly) to the perils of the sea. Found out later that she was some truly major Celtic scholar but she certainly didn't flaunt it! I must try to remember her first name ...

By the way Dr Price, how are you doing today? Weren't you cremated on Jan 31st 1893? You must have spent all the money you made selling tickets to the event by now ...

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: sian, west wales
Date: 01 Feb 12 - 01:52 PM

Found the one with Sianti Gymraeg (Welsh Shanty) in it. It's the one that Dr Price and I (and any fans of early Plethyn albums - though with landlubber words) would know as "Happy now we are all, my boys". The notes in the book I have to hand (Canu'r Cymru II, 1987) say the tune was first noted down by Dr Meredydd Evans from the singing of his mother, Charlotte, who learned it from a farmworker in south Meirionyddshire at the end of the 1800s. He later came across a Welsh text entitled "Capstan shanty from Bangor to Boston slate ships" with the same metre and macaronic chorus in Univ. of Bangor library - and that seems to be the only written evidence of a Welsh language shanty. No tune. Later, he heard an old Welsh sailor singing a combination of some of those verses with Charlotte Evans' tune which he learned on the 'Blodwen' sailing from Porthmadog - used for 'pulling ropes'.

The tune has a six-note compass and is a variant, says Meredydd Evans, of the first half of a melody known, "throughout Europe and beyond. In France, it is called, ' Ah! vous dirai-je, maman' and in England 'Baa Baa black sheep'"

I hear the connection but the shanty tune is more fleshed out by a long shot.

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 02 Feb 12 - 02:17 AM

Brilliant work, sian! – Can't believe you found it. Thank you for the time and effort. You have contributed something to all who might use Stan Hugill's book which, as I said, is missing the complete verse. And thank you to Mike for supplying the source info about the dearth of Welsh chanties.

I am still unclear where the English-lang. "Marco Polo" verse comes from. Did Davies write it?

I am going to drift slighty off; hopefully no one minds.

You might be aware that I am very interested in chanties, especially in their development. So I find it intriguing that there were no or very few Welsh ones, for two reasons.

First reason is that I think Stan Hugill leads one to believe that "Welsh chanties", though not something huge, were nonetheless something significant. Such an impression led me to include "Welsh" among the languages for chanties in an article that I wrote. I am interested here because I am engaged in an on-going critique of Hugill's Shanties from the Seven Seas book, in light of the fact that it has been so influential on current performance yet it contains so many errors and lots of contrivances (mixed in, of course, with plenty of good work, too). Though you guys have enlightened me, I'm not yet in the position to really critique Hugill in this case, i.e. as to whether he was being disingenuous or failed in his critical duties. I am going to post the info from his remarks on Welsh chanties below, to see how people think it fits in to what is being discussed here.

The second reason I am intrigued by no/few Welsh chanties is that I have specific, well developed opinions about the origin and development of chanties – which I'll not try to impress upon people here, but I'll just summarize. That is, that what were initially called chanties were a style/phenomenon originating with African-American worksong practices. It spread from there, though minimally, in the earlier times, chanties were a distinctly English-language phenomenon. There were some shipboard work song traditions prior to and concurrent with "chanties" that were in other languages, but if one looks really closely, they can be distinguished from the phenomenon called chanties – at a point. In later years, the term "chanty" would be expanded to encompass most any work song, whether in non-English from earlier times (e.g. Norwegian songs at the capstan) or whether non-English songs adapted or created later to fill the function of a chanty. Most of the non-English chanties that truly resemble chanties, I maintain, are borrowings/translations of English-language chanties. Other non-English chanties are different in style, usually being heaving chanties which, as any chantyman can tell you, can be borrowed wholesale from a wide range of non-chanty material. On the other hand, hauling chanties, those which are most unique to the shipboard genre, do not really occur in non-English, except as translations of English hauling songs or in strange-ish/outlier forms that really do not resemble the form of English hauling chanties (and which therefore, according to my opinion, have merely come under the label of 'chanty' after the fact).

Perhaps that is somewhat confusing, or maybe too nerdy for anyone here to care! But anyway, it all goes to say that I would not be surprised to learn that there were no Welsh chanties, in that light, or that all were heaving (no hauling) chanties and most likely adaptations of previously existing folk/popular songs.

OK so here are Hugill's notes on the Welsh chanties. Along with them, I am putting renditions that I recently recorded. Please bear in mind that these are my first attempts to sing in Welsh. So why post it then, you ask, if I cannot do justice to the language? It is simply part of a much larger project, in which i am rendering all of the chanties in Hugill's book. The personal reason for that is to achieve a deeper engagement with the book, and the public reason is to provide stepping stones, however small, between the written page and future performances by people who can do more justice but who have difficulty converting texts into performance. So please accept my apologies for any "butchering" of the language.

I see now that Hugill's bibliography includes Davies' Cerddi Huw Puw [1923] and Cerddi Portinllaen, with the semantically odd note "Welsh versions of British shanties." The main text has three Welsh songs.

1. Mochyn Du

I now give one of the most popular capstan shanties ever sung aboard of ships with entire Welsh crews, ships hailing in the main from Liverpool. This is a folk song called Mochyn Du or The Black Pig. My informant declared that it was even more popular than another Welsh folk-song frequently heard at the capstan when the singers hailed from Cambria—Hob-y-derridando. I obtained the words of this version from H.B. Jones. There were many other versions but not all of them were used at sea. It was often raised when anchor-heaving aboard the Cambrian Queen (Captain Davies).

His main version follows, with two Welsh verses.

Mochyn Du

Then he offers what he says were "English words often sung to this tune" – one verse of the "Cosher Bailey" type, i.e. "Davy Davy comes from Nevin", and directs us to "Hob y Deri Dando" for the rest.

So are we to assume "H.B. Jones" gave the "folk song" version to Hugill, and Hugill felt the license to call it a chanty form? Or should we assume that Jones presented it, w/ Welsh words, as a chanty?


2. Hob-y-Derri(n)-Dando

A great favourite with Welsh seamen at the capstan was the Cambrian folk-song Hob-y-derri(n)-dando. It was often sung aboard Davis's ships of Liverpool, and Professor J. Glyn Davies told me that his brother related how the anchor was hove up in Bombay Harbour aboard the ship Dominion, when commanded by Captain Henry Thomas, to this rousing tune. The following version is one given me by Bill Morris, an old Aberdovey seaman of the days of sail who died a few years ago in his eighties.

The version has 3 Welsh verses, the 3rd being the one with the missing line discovered by sian. [Incidentally, the English translation of all 4 lines of verse is given, as follows:

There is in Nevin a light ale, boys,
This ale it is both food and drink,
When I filled me belly full,
Till I was turning like a cartwheel.]

The start of another Welsh verse is given, from "Bill Morris":
Ar y fford wrth fynd i Lundain,
Mi gwrddais a theiliwr llawen.

Hugill continues:
Sometimes 'Borth' was sung about instead of London, with 'torth' (loaf) as the rhyming word in the second line. Many of the verses Welsh sailors sang were bawdy. Verses with English words were often sung to this old song when heaving at the capstan. They were in the main the same as those sung to the other Welsh folk-song used at the capstan by Welsh seamen—Mochyn Du.

Here he gives 5 Cosher Bailey type verses, i.e. Davy Davy comes from Nevin, etc., but fits them to the Welsh chorus. Then he mentions an English chorus in one of RR Terry's books: "Jane, Jane, come to the glen/ To sing praise to Shanny Vach Voin!"

Hob-Y-Derri(n)-Dando

So again he seems to imply that a veteran seaman, "Bill Morris," presented a Welsh form as a chanty.

3. Rownd yr Horn

And now we present a Welsh shanty which, according to my informant, Mr. David Thomas of Bangor, is said to have been 'composed' by Captain Richard Pritchard of Amlwch. Captain Pritchard was known as 'Dic Comon Sens', i.e. 'Common-sense Dick'. Mr. Thomas took down the words and tune from the singing of an old retired sea captain. The old captain called it a "shanti' and it was probably sung at the capstan. Mr. Thomas said that there were many more verses in the complete shanty, but he did not know them. Mr. Gwion Davies of Llanfairfechan gave me a similar version often sung aborad a certain South Georgia whaler. He said that the second 'Rownd yr Horn!' would be yelled out in English—'Round the Horrrn!'

Then he gives the song, with 2 verses, only in Welsh.

Rownd Yr Horn

So it seems to be an 'authentic' sea version…unless these informants learned them sometime between Davies' publication and the 1950s (when Hugill was working in Aberdovey). Thoughts?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: sian, west wales
Date: 02 Feb 12 - 07:06 PM

>> And thank you to Mike for supplying the source info about the dearth of Welsh chanties. … You might be aware that I am very interested in chanties, especially in their development. So I find it intriguing that there were no or very few Welsh ones, for two reasons.

Hmm. I went after some other notes on other Welsh words to this tune. Some more interesting points:

Dr Evans' (above) father, who was a sailor for 18 years, said that, (my translation from Welsh) 'there was much singing of Welsh popular songs in the foc's'le … but Dr Evans doesn't remember him ever mentioning specifically work songs. But, here was a sight, at last, in the College library, shanty words that were sung while raising anchor. At least, that's how the evidence appeared on paper.' So, how I read these notes (and the greater piece from which they come) is that he feels that Welsh language shanties existed but weren't recorded. Maybe there weren't a lot of them, but they did exist.

The other thing which struck me is that "Happy now we are all, my boys" is typical of the macaronic chorus found in Welsh songs. They were English phrases that were repeated phonetically and, inevitably, mixed up. Dr Evans feels (and he is the expert) that the original came from 'Happy New Year, all my boys' … which puts an interesting slant on the song, doesn't it?

>>I am still unclear where the English-lang. "Marco Polo" verse comes from. Did Davies write it?

Someone might know the answer but it's a bit like asking where any rugby verses come from. "Author Unknown" would be my guess.

>>I'm not yet in the position to really critique Hugill in this case, i.e. as to whether he was being disingenuous or failed in his critical duties.

Dr Evans knew Hugill, I think. He might be willing to talk to you about this. I could ask him …

>> There were some shipboard work song traditions prior to and concurrent with "chanties" that were in other languages, but if one looks really closely, they can be distinguished from the phenomenon called chanties – at a point.

The idea that the Welsh mostly sang currently popular songs (and hymns would fall into that category) would work with that theory.

>>So please accept my apologies for any "butchering" of the language.

Easily corrected. Just find yourself a Welsh speaker.

>>Mochyn Du

Remember, Y Mochyn Du was written about 1854 so those specific verses would fall into the 'pop song' category above. I'm not sure if the author (John Owen, who became a minister and was deeply embarassed by the song in his old age) also wrote the tune or used an existing tune. I'll try to find out for you.

>>So are we to assume "H.B. Jones" gave the "folk song" version to Hugill, and Hugill felt the license to call it a chanty form? Or should we assume that Jones presented it, w/ Welsh words, as a chanty?

I can't answer that but Y Mochyn Du is sung just about everywhere by just about everyone in Welsh speaking Wales. Hugill would have heard it frequently as a popular pub song. Jones would know that.

>>Hob-y-Derri(n)-Dando

Not sure where the 'n' comes from but, apart from that …

>>There is in Nevin a light ale, boys,

I think 'light' doesn't really convey what the verse is saying. These kind of verses are considered witty if they say contrasting, impossible things. So to say the beer is 'sallow, fusty' and then praise it by saying it's both food and drink is thought to be humourous.

>>The start of another Welsh verse is given, from "Bill Morris":
>>Ar y fford wrth fynd i Lundain,
>>Mi gwrddais a theiliwr llawen.

That's the first verse of a humourous song usually sung to another tune, with a different chorus.   But see below re: verses.

>>Hugill continues: Sometimes 'Borth' was sung about instead of London, with 'torth' (loaf) as the rhyming word in the second line.

Pardon? Apart from that changing the meter, it makes no sense. 'On the road as I was going to Borth, I met a loaf tailor.' He either didn't know whereof he spoke, or he made a balls-up of explaining what he meant.

>>So again he seems to imply that a veteran seaman, "Bill Morris," presented a Welsh form as a chanty.

Perhaps Morris is saying, 'this is a song, and we used in as a chanty' which isn't the same thing as saying, 'this is a chanty'.

>>Rownd yr Horn

I now realize that I know surprising little about this one, 'though we sing it constantly in sessions.

Re: the origins of the songs published by J. Glyn Davies, let me just give you a list:

Fflat Huw Puw(Huw Puw's Flat): Tune, 'Dydd Cyntaf o Awst' being played here by Stephen Rees and Huw Roberts.

Ca^n Huw Puw (Huw Puw's Song): Tune, "Miss Tickletoby kept a school"

Gadael Tir (Leaving Land): Tune, 'A-roving'

Tywydd Mawr (Heavy Weather): Tune, 'Difyrrwch Ifan Delynwr' harp tune

Codi Angor (Weighing Anchor): Tune, 'Across the Western Ocean'

Gyrru 'Mlaen i Bortinllaen (Riding hard to Portinllaen): Tune, 'Visen om Palle', Danish trad.

Yn Harbwr Corc (In Cork Harbour): Tune 'Good morning, Mr Tapscott'

Hwylio Adre (Homeward Bound): Tune, 'Good-byd, fare you well'

Santiana: Tune, 'Oh, Santiana, blow your horn'

Mo^r Tir (Ground Swell): Tune, 'Oh poor old man his horse will die' (Dr Price may know more about this)

Dafydd Jones: Tune, 'Sally Brown'

Portinllaen: Tune, 'The Happy Miller'

Longau Caernarfon (The ships of Caernarfon): Tune, Norwegian trad.

Ca^n y Fronfraith (The throstle's song): J.G.D.

Diwrnod Cario Gwair (Hay harvest day): J.G.D.

Be Gefaist Ti'n Fwyd? (What had you to eat?): Tune, Danish trad.

Robin ar y Rhiniog (Robin on the threshold): Tune, trad. Welsh

Hwre^ am Gei Caernarfon (Hurrah for Caernarfon Quay): Tune, 'Rio Grande'

Diofal yw'r Aderyn (Carefree is the bird): Tune from Sweden

Carlo (dog's name): Tune, Samoan chant

Dewryn (dog's name): Tune, J.G.D.

Teg oedd yr awel (Fair was the breeze): J.G.D.

Mae'r Gwynt yn Deg (The wind is fair): Tune, 'A long time ago'

Rowndio'r Horn (Rounding the Horn): tune, 'Tommy's gone to Ilo' (not to be confused with the other song, Rownd yr Horn)

Ffarwel San Salvador (Farewell San Salvador): tune, 'Blow the man down'

Y Llong a^'r Hwyliau Gwynion (The ship with the white sails): Tune, 'Blow,boys, bully boys, blow'

Y Drol Fach Felen (The little yellow cart): Tune, 'Whiskey is the life of man'

Heibio Ynys Sgogwm (Past the Isle of Skokholm): Tune, 'Boney was a warrior'

Bryniau Iwerddon (The hills of Ireland): tune, 'Haul away, Joe'

Robin Sio^n: Tune, 'Ranzo'

Brig y Bercin (The Brig Bercin): Tune, last bars of 'A-rovin' expanded by JGD

Golau Enlli (Bardsey Light): Tune, JGD

Ffarwel, hen Bethau (Farewell, beloved things): Tune, 'Lusty gallant'

Yn Harbwr San Francisco (in San Francisco Harbour): Tune, 'The girl I left behind me'

Cerdd y Genweiriwr (The angler's song): Tune with changes, old Languedocian

Dwy a Dimeu (Twopence ha'penny): Tune, Swedish trad.

O Quae Mutatio Rerum! (Oh how things change): Tune, 'O alte Burschenherrlichkeit' German student song

Y Sgwner Tri Mast (the three-masted schooner): Tune, 'Spanish Ladies'

Owen Dau Funud (Half a Jiff Owen): Tune, JGD

Noson Aflawen (The noisy night): Tune, JGD

Clwt y Dawns (The Dancing Green): Tune, JGD

Y Meddyg Gwych (The splendid Doctor): Tune, 'Pant Corlan yr W^yn, Welsh trad.

Edrych Tuag Adre (Looking homewards): Tune, 'Shenandoah'

Meibion Adda (Sons of Adam): Tune, Danish trad.

Finally, I would like to add something – including a hypothesis I've only just come up with – on Welsh folk song.

Welsh folk song, as a body of work, has a really high proportion of 4 line verses. Of these, a very great number have a burden/refrain either at the end of each verse, or every other line within the verse ("Deck the halls…" good example). There are also quite a few with a repeated line. Plus, the Welsh just love folk songs which gives everyone a chance to join in as some point or another. These were sung in the fields, in the labourers' quarters on farms, in quarries, etc. They were quite often sung in competition, with people making up verses as the song progressed. These verse forms, and the situations in which they were used, go back to at least the 1500s, and in some cases much farther.

So, my hypothesis is that if the Welsh had this song tradition which could be so easily adapted to the work at hand on board, it would be easy enough to use their indigenous tradition and, if someone wanted to explain them using the word 'chanty, shanty' … yeh; ok. No skin off our noses.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 03 Feb 12 - 04:56 AM

Perhaps Morris is saying, 'this is a song, and we used in as a chanty' which isn't the same thing as saying, 'this is a chanty'.

I should clarify. Chanty, folk song, popular song, etc. aren't necessarily exclusive categories. --Well, not in the language I or Hugill is using. For these purposes, if it was used as a work song reasonably consistently, no matter how it originated, then it was a chanty. (Leave aside my speculations about the historical meanings of 'chanty' at earlier points -- that is just related to historical development ideas, not this point.) So if people were singing, for instance, "Hob y Deri Dando" at the capstan, then it *was* a chanty, too (though of course it was primarily known as a folk/popular song).

Stan Hugill's approach was to be very inclusive. If he had *any* reliable information or good reason to believe that a song had been used for work on ships, he included it among the shanty repertoire.

Now that I see your list of Davies' adapted shanties (thanks, sian!), I believe that Hugill would have seen that but not included those songs among the repertoire as shanties because they were new creations, not sung by sailors. However, the three Welsh-language songs that he did include were included on the basis of the testimony of his informants that they were sung as work songs. I have no reason to doubt that they were actually sung as chanties. Moreover, the Welsh-language verses/versions would have been specifically what his informants said were sung when being used as shanties. (In other words, he would not have been so presumptuous to present non-chanty versions, pulled from the common folk singing practice, as shanty versions.)

To belabor the point: Morris is saying 'this is that famous song, you know? Well, we used it as a chanty. [Which for Hugill's and my purposes = we can count it as a chanty] And here's how it went when we sang it as a chanty."

So I believe Hugill provides genuine evidence that at least three Welsh songs -- sung in Welsh language -- were chanties (regardless of their origins). The statement of Davies that there were no Welsh-language shanties is what caused me to question that.

The "Marco Polo" verse might not actually be that hard to track down; I was just wondering if it was an obvious thing, to anyone reading this thread. Trying to rule out J. Glyn Davies as the source (Dr Price's post seemed somewhat suggestive that it may have been.) Chanty singing in the revival context is very much a "broken" tradition, in the sense that if something from the oral tradition did not go down in a book (or on a recording, less often), then it disappeared. Then, that was picked up again by singers with the book or recordings as the sources. Not all, but perhaps the majority of verses that people sing in the newly developed oral tradition can be traced to some book or recording. As a possible case in point, "Rownd yr Horn", from what sian has said, may be simply revived having used Hugill's text as the source. It's likely (but not certain -- I am not killing myself over it) that the "Marco polo" verse will turn up in a published source at at least I will find a recording that popularized it.

So, my hypothesis is that if the Welsh had this song tradition which could be so easily adapted to the work at hand on board, it would be easy enough to use their indigenous tradition and, if someone wanted to explain them using the word 'chanty, shanty' … yeh; ok. No skin off our noses.

I tend to agree. This would be similar to the case of other non-English-language "shanties".

>>Hugill continues: Sometimes 'Borth' was sung about instead of London, with 'torth' (loaf) as the rhyming word in the second line.

Pardon? Apart from that changing the meter, it makes no sense. 'On the road as I was going to Borth, I met a loaf tailor.' He either didn't know whereof he spoke, or he made a balls-up of explaining what he meant.

Oops, sorry, that was in reference to the first verse of the song (which I didn't write out)...which makes reference to a woman swallowing a "brick". Here she would be swallowing a loaf.

And yes, the 'n' in "Hob y..." is just randomness...it's how Hugill wrote it out, though he did know the real name, too. So he was likely describing how it was specifically sung to him.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: GUEST,interestedchap
Date: 19 Mar 17 - 12:53 PM

Sorry to dig up this thread, but I've been looking in the Welsh newspaper archive for Hob Y Deri Dando lyrics and there are quite a few versions, although it isn't always clear that they are songs rather than poems.

This one seems fairly complete from 1894:

Bu'm yn caru lodes landeg
Hob a diri dando,
Beunydd ar ei hoi yn rhedeg-
Dyna ganu eto;
Tybiais hon yn rhosyn Saron-
Sian, fwyn Sian,
Troes yn waeth na dalen poethion-
Sian fwyn, mawr fu fy nghwyn
Am danat ti, fy ngeneth fwyn.

Ar ryw noswaith deg yn llawen-
Hob a diri dando,
Rhodiwn gyda'r feinir fwynwen-
Dyna ganu eto;
Rhoes fy mraich yn dyn am dani-
Sian, fwyn Sian,
Melus odiaeth oedd ei chwmni-
Sian fwyn, main yw dy drwyn,
Mae'th lygaid fel dwy seren fwyn.

Gwenai Sian yn lion a siriol-
Hob a diri dando,
Aethum innau yn fwy gwrol-
Dyna ganu eto;
Ac ymdrechais gyrhaedd cusan-
Sian, fwyn Sian,
Heb fawr feddwl digio'm rhian-
Sian fwyn, mawr fydd fy nghwyn
Os digio wnai, fy ngeneth fwyn.

Ond, cell, fi hi waeddai'n filain-
Hob a diri dando, "You have crushed my bonnet, villain"-
Dyna drwbwl eto;
Gwaeddais innau yn fy nghiedi,
Ow, Sian fwyn,
Aros mi rof dal am dani-
Sian fwyn, ystyria 'nghwyn,
Fe wnaf unpeth er dy fwyn.

Ar ei hoi canlynais encyd-
Hob a diri dando,
Gau dd'weyd, "Gwrando, fy anwvlyd"
Dyna ganu eto;
Dyma gefais i'm cysuro-
Ow, Sian fwyn,
"Now, begone, you clumsy fellow;"-
Sian fwyn, cam yw dy drwyn, Mae'th lygaid fel dwy ganwyll frwyn.

Wei, ffarwel y ferch dafod ddrwg-
Hob a diri dando,
Dim i mi yw'th wen a/th gilwg-
Dyna ganu eto;
Gallaf fyw yn eithaf hebot-
Sian, fwyn Sian,
Nid wy'n hidio nydwydd ynot-
Sian fwyn, gad fi i 'nghwyn,
Rhed dithau'n syth ar ol dy drwyn.

Ar fy mawd rhois glee yn wrol-
Hob a diri dando,
A dychwelais adre'n siriol-
Dyna ganu eto;
Cymerais Iw cyn myn'd i 'ngwely-
Sian, fwyn Sian,
Nad awn byth at ferch ond hyny-
Sian fwyn, darfu 'nghwyn
A'r cur a gefais er dy fwyn.

I. G. Ab DAFYDD.

I am no good at singing in Welsh, but this seems to fit the tune I know.

from here: http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3587374/3587387/29

I have also found much older uses of the phrase Hob Y Deri Dando but the structure of the song/poem seems different.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 17 - 07:52 AM

"You Jack Hughes and the miller gripping"

Probably Hugh Jack Hugh and the miller Griffin

Hugh (ap) Jack (ap) Hugh. Maybe they couldn't download the ap.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 18 - 04:42 AM

When my husband first learnt it,in the 1980's the Welsh singer left it as Johnny Fach Fawr - Johny big and small - although she sang the rest in English.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Mar 21 - 08:21 PM

I see this thread is crosslinked to "Cosher Bailey's Engine." I'm sure there must be a good reason for that (since I do most of the crosslinking), but I can't figure it out.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Mar 21 - 08:29 PM

Joe, see the following post:

Subject: OK, we'll try, Page 1
From: Abby Sale
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 08:08 PM

Perhaps that's why the crosslinking.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Aug 23 - 11:38 AM

Robert Graves, Good-bye to All That (1930) [passage app. written in May, 1915]:

“[A very young Welsh soldier] appealed to me as an arbiter. ‘You’ve been to college, sir, haven’t you?’ I said, yes, I had, but so had Crawshay Bailey’s brother Norwich.’ This was held to be a wonderfully witty answer. Crawshay Bailey is one of the idiotic songs of Wales. (Crawshay Bailey himself ‘had an engine and he couldn't make it go,’ and all his relations in the song had similar shortcomings. Crawshay Bailey's brother Norwich, for instance, was fond of oatmeal porridge, and was sent to Cardiff college, for to get a bit of knowledge.) After that I had no trouble with the platoon at all.”

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Aug 23 - 11:54 AM

The ubiquitous Oscar Brand recorded his "Crusher Bailey" about 1955-56 on "Bawdy Songs and Backroom Ballads, Vol. II."