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Prayer-Free Mourning

SharonA 28 Sep 01 - 05:31 PM
Mrrzy 28 Sep 01 - 02:46 PM
marty D 25 Sep 01 - 08:29 PM
MAG 25 Sep 01 - 08:15 PM
Mrrzy 25 Sep 01 - 09:31 AM
Steve in Idaho 24 Sep 01 - 02:00 PM
RichM 24 Sep 01 - 01:56 PM
Mrrzy 24 Sep 01 - 01:06 PM
toadfrog 16 Sep 01 - 11:08 PM
DougR 16 Sep 01 - 12:26 AM
GUEST,just a nobody 15 Sep 01 - 11:49 PM
toadfrog 15 Sep 01 - 08:33 PM
Mrrzy 15 Sep 01 - 05:22 PM
DougR 15 Sep 01 - 05:08 PM
Mrrzy 15 Sep 01 - 05:04 PM
Mrrzy 15 Sep 01 - 05:01 PM
Peg 15 Sep 01 - 12:38 AM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 15 Sep 01 - 12:07 AM
Amos 15 Sep 01 - 12:01 AM
DougR 14 Sep 01 - 11:42 PM
toadfrog 14 Sep 01 - 11:33 PM
Bill D 14 Sep 01 - 07:22 PM
SharonA 14 Sep 01 - 06:50 PM
Lanfranc 14 Sep 01 - 06:43 PM
GUEST,MAG at work 14 Sep 01 - 06:40 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 14 Sep 01 - 03:27 PM
Rick Fielding 14 Sep 01 - 02:57 PM
Mrrzy 14 Sep 01 - 02:25 PM
DougR 14 Sep 01 - 02:19 PM
Mrrzy 14 Sep 01 - 02:14 PM
Ebbie 14 Sep 01 - 02:01 PM
katlaughing 14 Sep 01 - 02:00 PM
Kim C 14 Sep 01 - 01:39 PM
Clinton Hammond 14 Sep 01 - 01:38 PM
Mrrzy 14 Sep 01 - 01:35 PM
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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: SharonA
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 05:31 PM

Mrrzy asks: "How are you all doing?"

Definitely still grieving. Went to a folk gathering last night, for the first time since the 11th, and sang publicly for the first time since the 11th. I hadn't felt like singing, and hadn't felt that it was "proper" (for lack of a better term) to sing, during the official period of national mourning which ended last weekend. Even last night, I felt uncomfortable singing a song unrelated to the tragedy. It's hard to get back to "normal" when I don't know what that is anymore.

I also sang an original song about war memorials ("Name on a Wall" – I think I sang it on Mudcat Radio on July 3rd). It was the first song I sang to break my musical "silence" and, man, it was tough to do. I didn't even really want to sing then. I don't even really want to sing now! I'm gonna do it anyway, though.


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 02:46 PM

Some might say that our holy war extremists include our President... but I am gaining hope, every day, that whatever the response is (and even I think a response is required), it might actually be sane and measured and maybe not all guns and kill the bastards.

I still mourn the tragedy. I still don't answer Fine to How are you. But I am no longer abjectly terrified of my own government's response and the reaction thereto. I'm scared, yes, but it seems reasonable now. I think my family is past the Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder stage we all leapt into... how are you all doing?


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: marty D
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 08:29 PM

Mrrzy, you said, " I would like to see everybody put aside the hereafter and concentrate on the here and now."

"We have our own lunatic fringes as does every cause."

Wise words, but let me point out that at least here our "holy war" extremists are kept in check by our laws. Behind the scenes they may have a lot of power, but I simply don't think they make final policy. I sure hope I'm right.

marty


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: MAG
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 08:15 PM

I'm sad, sad, sad that all the excellent advice on how to handle this crisis on NPR and elsewhere seems to be falling by the wayside in favor of "They will pay." No matter that "they" welcome death at our hands (martyrdom) or that military action will hurt the wrong people.

I'm sad that the vast majority of experts on the Middle East have been saying for decades that Arafat is a moderate, and that heavy-handedness against the Palestinians only made the fringe more frustrated and desperate. not to mention more powerful with the masses.

I'm sad that once again the justness of a cause has been blown to bits by terrorism, which, IMHO, is always wrong. committed against the King David Hotel, or the Sandinista government of Nicaragua, or pubgoers.

Thank you, Mrzzy. or is that Mrrzy??


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 09:31 AM

Ipse dixit, Norton1, translated by Heinlein as "you sure said a mouthful" - that is exactly what I mean. And RichM, I'm trying to pull away from the supernatural, which is what any faith in any deity or anything resembling a deity is, and deal with the horrors of the here and now IN the here and now. Certain middle-east "folks" are calling for a holy war; apparently so is our government. That would be a secondary tragedy, to my way of thinking. This MUST, truly MUST, be kept out of the field of superstition and brought/maintained in the arena of CRIME. We cannot allow ourselves to fall into Osama's or any other fanatic's trap, let alone jump in with both feet as our Fearless Leader appears to be doing. Those folks are MASS MURDERERS, and should be regarded/treated as such.

But now I've been drawn into thread creep myself, sorry!


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 02:00 PM

Thanks Mrrzy - I guess this whole deal has been beyond my comprehension. Maybe I have too many of my own ghosts to pack around but this is so far out of my realm, probably others, that to say I mourn is a terrible understatement. If by mourning I remember the incidents of my past, that I don't sleep at night, that I end up arguing with my partner over stupid stuff, that as the people I work for call and ask me to watch over their families while they are gone I grieve, and attempt to put this craziness into some perspective I can comprehend - then that is mourning to me. I mourn for the past, present, and future. It is the depth of sadness at times that I am powerless to move - yet am moved to a rage that belies belief. I mourn - I pray in my own inept way - I want to not see the new images that fight for space in my mind with the old ones of my youth.

Sometimes I wish I drank - what a crappy time to quit smoking - where am I going and where have I been.

Peace - Steve


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: RichM
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 01:56 PM

Calling someone's beliefs "imaginary friends" is going to win friends?


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 01:06 PM

I guess I'm sorry that a) this thread drifted so far off course, and b) that it then drifted all the way off the page. I started this to allow those of us who would like to avoid the terrorists' trap of turning this into a crusade, or holy war, or anything other than Civilized versus Barbarian, to have a place to talk about these "events" as they are being called by the media, without bringing in anybody's imaginary friends. Yes war is awful. Yes war is happening, or coming, or inevitable even perhaps. But the sorrow felt over these latest tragedies doesn't have to be overshadowed by We Don't Know What To Do Next So We're Going To Bash Somebody And Our Imaginary Friend Will Be Happy. Or even Our Imaginary Friend Isn't As Happy As Those Of You With A Different Imaginary Friend Might Think.


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: toadfrog
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 11:08 PM

Doug, your response is courteous, and I appreciate that. I very much hope you are mistaken about what will happen. We will see, and doubtless disagree about whatever occurs.


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: DougR
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 12:26 AM

Well, toad, I'm sorry if you thought I was evading your question when I was only answering the only way I knew how. I am not an expert on fighting terriorism. I could pontificate on what I think should be done, but my opinion would be based on nothing more than opinion. If you insist though, here goes.

I don't believe this war will be like WW2. No D-Day; no "Battle of the Bulge," and I suspect it will be more of a guerilla war than was Korea. It probably will be a war that takes place in many countries as military units attack cells located, perhaps, in neighborhoods of cities. If other countries didn't fear that what happened in New York and Washington, D. C. could also happen in their own countries they may not have been as eager to alighn themselves with our country. It will be a bloody, long, war, in my opinion. I think there will be more bombings in the U. S. and that there will be similar occurances in other countries. The Terriorist's web is, I think, very wide.

But that's all it is, toad. Things I think, based on nothing but guess.

Ok?

I guess I just have a bit more faith in our leadership than you do, based on what you posted.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 11:49 PM

Partisanship is alive and well, I see. I'm glad to see that war is such a horrible horrible thing. I'm glad to see that those that fought for the freedoms, that most take forgranted, have been slapped in the face by their descendents. I suppose 'War-mongers' 'hawks' 'heartless' 'cold-blooded' 'baby killers' like myself, think of war very differently than many of you. My God, have you people forgotten the sacrafices made by our ancestors here? Read the Declaration of Independence. Look at those names on the bottom. That declaration, which led to the birth of this country, was a DECLARATION OF WAR! Do you know what it meant to have your name on that document? High treason, a death sentence. These men, and the countless others that fought for this country, did not fight for a document, a piece of paper that could be torn, or lost. They fought for a principle. They wrote the constitution with their blood. The freedom you enjoy today was paid for with thier 'pound of flesh.' But now, I suppose we should remember them as 'War mongers' and 'hawks.'

One person, in another thread said something along the lines of being tired of 'big-dicked' patriotism. Am I patriotic, yes. Do I mourn the dead, yes. Do I look forward to war, No. Do I celebrate the death caused by war, No. Will war happen, lets pray that it won't, but understand that it does.

Where did the admiration that we once held for those that made the ultimate sacrifice for thier country, go? At what point did those that fought for our independence go from 'heros' and 'patriots' to 'war mongers.' Was my Great grand Father's sacrifice for nothing in WWI? My grandfather who suffered through WWII. Should we have done nothing? Should we have not become involved, so that we could be the better of the world, be gentler and kinder, be forgiving and understanding. What would have become of our world?

Those that wish to turn the other cheek, and forgive those that struck us. To try to understand why, or say that it is our fault that this attack happened. Please, explain to the person who went to work, answered the phones and then died. Where they the enemy? Was it thier fault the government upset someone? Do you think the groups that attack like this GIVE A SHIT about your understanding? This will not end, not by all joining hands and singing a song about 'peace love and understanding.' If they gave a CRAP about your understanding, and your notion of what is right, do you think so many CITIZENS would have died.

For those I offend, I am sorry. But I have seen too many threads, too many messages, that we should lay down. That our country, and others, should understand that these terrorists were just trying to make a point. That we, as a people, should not desire to hunt them down. I have seen messages saying that waving the flag is innapropriate. Who are any of you to tell me, or anyone, how they should mourn, what they need to cling to for support. I've even seen messages that blame religion.. Religion Out I think it was.

I am sorry to have rambled, but seeing how many people seem to have forgotten how many people have died for their freedoms. I pray it is that they forgot, or is it that they view those brave men and women that gave them the freedoms they have, as 'monsters.' Yes, I am patriotic, I mourn those we have lost. I have a sick feeling inside that we will see the true monsters soon. Those that will celebrate when we do go to war. Those that will make it appear that all of us, are the same as the killers we hunt down. Mourn not only for our dead, But for the killing that will come. War is a horrible thing. It must be seen as such, and that sword should only be used in such a solmn and respected manner. Each dreaded stroke, each bloodied thrust, takes from us all. But from such wounds, healing comes. And with luck, the lessons learned, not forgotten by our grand children, as they seem to have been with us. What lesson? That war is not to be taken lightly, but with great care, and concern.

"For God doth know how many, now in health, Shall drop their blood in approbation Of what your reverence shall incite us to. Therefore take heed how you impawn our person, How you awake our sleeping sword of war- We charge you, in the name of God, take heed; For never two such kingdoms did contend Without much fall of blood; whose guiltless drops Are every one a woe, a sore complaint, 'Gainst him whose wrongs gives edge unto the swords That makes such waste in brief mortality." Henry V


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: toadfrog
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 08:33 PM

Doug, I asked a question, and you evaded it. I asked just what you folks think a war on terrorism would entail. And the answer seems to be, we should trust the "experts" on that.

I feel a little like Rhett Butler talking to future rebels at the outset of the Civil War. You "don't think people . . . are thinking about cost." If they aren't, they should. People may assume that there are no costs, until they are asked to pay them. We are asked to believe that "experts," read "Generals," know what to do. They don't. They know everything about hitting targets and carrying out amphibious landings. Since they know these things, they are likely to assume that these are the things which now must be done. That is a very scary thought, because these things can very well be self-defeating when the "enemy" has no beaches to land on, or armies to defeat.

Sure. Turn everything over to people who want to prove how much power they can project. Give them unlimited access to resources to do it. Don't count the costs. But don't ask prosperous folks to pay those costs, either. Son't raise my taxes to pay them. And don't get any of my grandchildren killed. Somebody else's grandchildren, maybe.

Those are the slogans that made Ronald Reagan great.

Isn't the idea of "war on terrorism" just a bit grandiose


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 05:22 PM

As long as it really Is "wherever" it is, not just in Afghanistan.


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: DougR
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 05:08 PM

Amos: I never thought of "whatever" as comprising a plan. I'll leave the planning to the experts. That's what they are paid to do.

Mrzzy: It is clear at this point that the U. S. government is not viewing this attack as a legal issue. It is an issue of war. No one is going to be looking for anyone to "bring to justice" I don't think. Like it or not, we are at war with terriorism wherever it is.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 05:04 PM

html doing me in again, and I proofread and PROOFREAD this time. Only the intitially-bolded "know" was supposed to be in bold, not the rest, cookie for the little elves again?


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 05:01 PM

My fear had been growing, so for once I was glad when the boys went over to my X2B's; silent paranoia (did you know it was the terrorists who brought West Nile Virus? but he'd never say anything to the kids) is probably better than the dread I was failing to contain. So I went out Friday night to escape the news which I couldn't turn off, and kind of see how the Day of Mourning was being observed around Charlottesville.
After a couple of Irish whiskies I wandered back up the Downtown Mall to where there would normally have been a Zydeco band for this week's Fridays After Five, and came upon a rather impromptu-looking candlelight vigil. There were boxes and boxes of candles around with a note saying Take one if you need one. Someone looked at me and said those exact words and I gave up trying not to weep, took one, and went and sat down next to a beautiful, big dog. I asked the guardian's permission and then sat there, leaking brain chemicals, patting the dog and being mightily comforted. There were groups of people, individuals, holding candles, some singing, many children playing in the amphitheater for poignant contrast. At one point as I sat there staring at my candle and trying not to wax my fingers some feet came over from a group that I think was the one that had been singing America the Beautiful. I just sat and got wetter, tears streaming down my face as they had been for most of the candle by then; eventually a knee appeared on the grass and a voice said If you need a hug, I've got an extra one… I turned and just let go, sobbing uninhibitedly for a while. Eventually I stopped actually sobbing, gave my Samaritan a hug back without ever looking up, and went back to quietly leaking brain chemicals. The dog's kind guardian then nudged the big animal back to me (whom I think had left for the noise), and let me pat the dog for a while longer. They stayed till I started looking around for kleenex and a second candle, a nice, nice pair.

There was a reporter there, taking some pictures apparently after getting the subjects' permissions, who never came anywhere near me. While I appreciated the respect, I kind of wish she'd have asked me what my story was. I think I'd have said something like this.

I am so afraid, so very afraid, of the harm our own government is about to inflict. They appear to be falling into the terrorists' trap, and allowing this (if not downright encouraging it) to become a holy war. This is not about people of one faith against (an)other(s), or at least we cannot allow it to become so just because the terrorists and their supporters want us to. This must remain between Us, the civilized humans who do not kill non-military others to make political points, and Them, the mass murderers who do just that. And "They" include anybody who lobs pipe bombs at children in Ireland, Israel, Palestine, Bosnia, Rwanda, Oklahoma City or anywhere else, or who murder doctors, or merely go out to their own neighborhood bars for an evening's [their terms] dago/fag/nigger/atheist/whatever bashing. We will become what we deplore if after falling into their trap, we then add insult to our own injury by using religion as an excuse to wage a war against some people for having a lunatic fringe which committed these latest, and most dreadful, deeds. We have our own lunatic fringes as does every cause.

So I reiterate that war is not the answer. I would like to see everybody put aside the hereafter and concentrate on the here and now. If all terrorist do not simply Down Tools and grow up, as has been said, let everyone everywhere rise up en masse and turn to whatever authorities there are. Let them denounce anybody whom they know knows anything about, or knows anybody who knows anything about, any plans to commit any of the above crimes against humans. Let all rise above the fear that comes from ignorance of what people with different names from your family are like. We'll get plenty of info if people would abandon false kith or kin loyalty to the people who inhabit all these fringes.

Then let them be tried under US law, which has the barbaric death penalty.


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:38 AM

we have been given a great opportunity. To show restraint, and wisdom. To demonstrate compassion and forgiveness. To show strength and decisive action.

All that can go towards finding and punishing the individuals involved.

But bombing innocent civilians should not be part of this plan. People whose death warrant is merely an accident of birth and the tyranny of poverty, keeping them in the place they are living and making them targets of our rash revenge.

We must pull together in grief and hope. Not anger and hatred.


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:07 AM

Everybody is still talking about the symptom (the terrorists) and not about the cause. It is very depressing that no one seems to realize that millions out there blame the United States (as the strongest representative of the western world) for holding in disregard the spiritual and physical needs of the people of much of the eastern world for many years. Unless our attitudes change, terrorism will be a fact of life for many years to come. We must apprehend known terrorist groups, but more will form unless our dominance over their cultures is ameliorated.


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: Amos
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:01 AM

"Whatever" is a pretty ineffective plan.

We need to identify with aggressive and efficient intell gathering exactly what the groups are that make up the hierarchy under ben Laden, assuming it was his control that led to this.

Then we need to identify the covert threads of support that feed them.

Then we need to starve, ostracise, expose, or attack them into complete dissolutionb so that no part of the group remains.

This should be feasible over four to five years, witht he first 75% being spent on the gathering of data.

A


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:42 PM

Toad: I don't think, at this point, people (at least in the U.S.A.) are thinking about cost.

We will do whatever has to be done, and damn the cost.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: toadfrog
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:33 PM

You know, people who talk about waging war on "terrorism" may have thought very much about what they are saying. Do you (war hawks) mean we should go drop bombs on people until they see the light? Like Sadaam Hussein has seen the light, after we have blockaded him and dropped bombs on him all these many years? Or the way the Vietnamese saw the light and got rid of their commie masters? Do you believe for one minute that countries who "harbor terrorists" are going to quit whatever they are doing just because we threaten them? And if you don't mean that, just exactly what do you mean, if anything?

Do you propose, perhaps, that we call up a huge army and go conquer Afghanistan, Iraq, Sudan, etc.? At the cost of how many American lives? And what on God's green earth would we do with all those places after we conquered them (assuming that were really possible)? Wasn't one Vietnam enough? I don't believe there is a single American who would be willing to pay the price of this war everyone is talking about.

Jeez! You are the same guys who are always complaining about taxes. Just imagine what that all would cost, just in terms of money, to say nothing of human life!

People are always saying the U.S. is the last World Power. That does not mean we are omnipotent.


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 07:22 PM

the only way to deal rationally with the dangerously irrational is to delete it....it can be a very sad thing to contemplate, but if a vicious dog which cannot be cured bites you and endangers others, it makes little difference WHY it is vicious....It doesn't understand, and both it & us will be better off.

Yes, you DO have to catch it first...but if you know who harbored that dog, there are measures that can be taken to dissuade them from their bad habits


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: SharonA
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 06:50 PM

"Growing up" is all well and good, but terrorists are dangerously immature. How do we rationally deal with the irrational? How do we wage the war we're about to wage in a sane manner, when war is by its nature insane?

In despair, but still determined not to condemn the innocent,
Sharon


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: Lanfranc
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 06:43 PM

Perhaps we ought to create a new crime "Inciting hatred", punishable by public crucifixion?

Wait, though, that punishment would make us as bad as them, whatever creed they corrupted to their own ends.

How do you punish those who conceived such deeds. Kill them, and you create a martyr. Jail them, and you create a hostage to fortune (or a hunger striker, or, in the case of the Irish "peace process", a prematurely-freed convicted murderer). Turn the other cheek, and they sneer at your weakness.

In the face of this week's events, prayer is a useful catharsis for the faithful, but implies the "imaginary friend". Denied prayer, what can we agnostics do? Atheists are even worse off, they can't even console themselves that there is any kind of divine plan. Humanists - well, after this week, who could have any faith in humans?

But wait - didn't a substantial part of the world stand in silence today?

Perhaps that's the answer - silence!

I'll shut up now, it's been a long week.


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: GUEST,MAG at work
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 06:40 PM

I am sad for Palestinian friends back in chicago. I am sad about the see? see? attitude coming from the current government in Israel. I am sad that it is looking more and more certain that the perps are foreign and not Americans (I wouldn't have believed it possible, given airport security). I am sad for a friend of sister's who was on the Logan flight. I am sad for my friend Roxanne whose family was barged to New Jersey and whose home is trashed. I am sad for a friend of a friend of a friend who called from the 102nd floor of tower 1 to say goodbye.

My personal inconvenience pales in comparison.

thank you, good friends. -- Mary Ann


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 03:27 PM

Peg has posted an unsettling piece on the thread, Attacks on Arab-Americans must stop. Those moronic fundamentalists, Falwell and Robertson say God is mad because of the abortionists, alternate lifestyles and the ACLU and is exacting revenge. I fear that most of us are still superstitious, illiterate and downright dumb and find it impossible to get along with out fellow man or with the planet we are despoiling.


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 02:57 PM

Thanks Mrzy. The "my god (or my jesus, or my allah etc.) is the 'right one' attitude has always troubled me greatly. I know that the vast majority of folks need that sort of thing in their lives, but oh do I wish there were fewer 'symbols' and more common sense at work. This is such a sad time.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 02:25 PM

They will not be defeated by bombs, either, DougR. And thanks, invisible html elves. I will leave cookies for you (some cyber humor there)...


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 02:19 PM

I sympathize with your views, all of you. I fear, however, that you don't recognize the fact that the world, not just the United States, is facing a more dangerous enemy than it has ever faced before. Terriorism.

The Terriorists do not play by the same rules as we are used to. That's should be clear to anyone.

They will not be defeated by our good thoughts.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 02:14 PM

Just to say that I'm getting supporting PMs on this thread, but please, post those here. I really think this is important.

Grow up is right, Ebbie!


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 02:01 PM

Mrrzy, people with your clarity of vision are what we need in the forefront. I'm still hoping that those in power, especially in this country, don't focus on revenge as the impetus for what they plan to do. This is a tremendous opportunity for our country to grow up. With all the millions of psychology courses taught through the generations, it seems that we still have not recognized the realities of the results of force.

:~(

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 02:00 PM

Beautiful, Mrzzy, thanks.

luvyakat


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Subject: RE: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: Kim C
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 01:39 PM

Dang, I wish I had said that...


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Subject: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 01:38 PM

I suspect that the world as we knew it has already, unfortunately, ended...

Thanks for this thread...


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Subject: Prayer-Free Mourning
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 01:35 PM

I grieve. I grieve for the lost, for those who know whom they've lost, and mostly for those who don't yet know. I remember - the worst is the not knowing. There is something horrible going on in your mind when your forebrain knows, intellectually, that there is no hope, and your hindbrain keeps right on hoping anyway because, after all, there is still a chance.

I hope. I hope that we can still have the beautiful thing this country was meant to be. When my father was killed by (similar) terrorists in the 80's, I hoped the US government would learn the lesson being taught since at least Nov. 5th, 1979. They didn't, and a year later we'd had at least 2 more bombings in the same city. The US government still didn't learn. Then came Pan Am and Lockerbie and [...] the earlier attempt on the WTC, and still they didn't learn. The answer is not more bloodshed. The answer is not My Imaginary Friend Is More Powerful Than Your Imaginary Friend. I'm not saying that I know what the answer is, but it isn't war.

I fear. I fear for those still missing, I fear for the deaths yet to come. I fear with all my heart and soul anything remotely pertaining to war. My parents suffered horribly in WW2, and neither of them were military. I can't imagine anything worse than an all-out aggression against people whose main crime seems to be that they have a different imaginary friend than our President. I can't imagine the horror of a real war, which --make no mistake-- WILL be fought here, on this continent, in this country, in your backyard.

I beg. I beg of my friends and colleagues not to fall into the natural, instinctive response to such a horrible attack. I beg of strangers and their friends and colleagues not to allow themselves sink to the depths into which we are being dragged. Please remember, not all Arabs are Moslem, not all Moslems are Arab, neither all Arabs nor all Moslems are radical rabid fundamentalists, not all Americans are Christian or Jewish, not all Christians or Jews are radical rabid fundamentalists either.

Please, please, anything but the allout war we seem to be heading for. That would really be the End of the World as we Know it.

|~(


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Mudcat time: 17 August 7:40 PM EDT

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