Ask yourself why

Subject: Ask yourself why
From: kendall
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 08:56 AM

Does it matter to anyone but me why they hate us? Do you think this Bin Ladan got up on the wrong side of the bed and decided to piss us off? It's always easier to lay blame than to solve the friggin' problem!

We have committed an unpardonable sin against Islam by stationing and keeping our troops in Saudi Arabia. Many of Islams' holiest place are there, and, it is a crime to them. When will we ever learn to deal with the problem instead of the symptoms?

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: Amos
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:36 AM

Kendall:

Stationing people may be offensive, but I doubt it is a root cause; are our troops committing acts against Allah? Against Muslims? Or what are they doing?

And weren't they invited in? If so, doesn't that put some of the onus on the Msulim government of Saudia which offered the invitation?

When people commit heinous acts of destroying unsuspecting innocents it is not just because they are angry about which race or uniform some poeple have. There are deeper elements at play -- the "crime" of US soldiers on Audi soil is a rationalization, in my opinion.

Regards,

A.

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:54 AM

Kendall, yes I believe we should ask why and where possible deal with the root causes.

I am no political expert but I would think that the root cause is the involvement with Palestine and Israel - getting involved in conflicts elsewhere in the world.

Questions could be "do we allow everyone a free and equal voice and take actions based on justice or based on choices that may suit us economically?", "are we really representing freedom our own version of freedom" etc.

I don't understand that situation well enough to pass judgement on it but I do believe that where people feel they are oppressed and being bullied by a mighty country that situations can crop up where it becomes easy for the lunatic fringes who probably have there own agendas anyway to gain support of masses who feel a little hurt.

I really don't know the answers but I feel more thought needs to go into the causes of terrorism before there is any real resolution. It is IMO more a battle that can be one by peace loving people believing in freedom for everone and selling that message to who I believe are the majority of people, regardless of race or faith than one that can be one by force (and as we have seen, lives do not matter to some).

Maybe I'm wrong but that is my take at the moment.

Jon

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: Kim C
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 10:14 AM

Some people don't have to have a reason. Being that I am not at all a hateful person, I have a hard time grasping the concept. To my logic it's like kids on the playground saying, well, you went and played with X and I don't like X so therefore I don't like you anymore either. I freely admit that I just don't get it.

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 10:30 AM

The nature of terrorism is that it's done by those who have a small voice and little popular support. The terrorists don't usually hold the majority opinion. They don't have the backing that would allow an overt fight.

I'd imagine that there were quite a few people who would like us out of Arab countries. The governments don't, or we would be out. I rather doubt that all those people would agree that killing thousands of innocent people is a good or justified way to do that. If Bin Laden wanted us out of Islamic countries, he wouldn't have done this. It is having the opposite effect. If he wanted to get the US involved in a fight which would get the people of those countries, and the governments, to unite and take sides against us...well, that seems to have failed as well.

Bush's actions will determine how the tide turns. If he manages to take out terrorist camps without bombing cities, we have a greater chance of not starting an actual war. (And I believe, whatever Bush calls it, it sounds like he plans more of a police action than a war.)

While I agree that US policy has done a lot to turn Muslims in various places against us, I don't think they're ready to risk a war over it. I don't think Bin Laden is concerned with any agenda but his own. I think he and his followers are willing to shed any blood to make a point, whether it's their own, Americans' or that of innocent Muslims.

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 11:31 AM

Kim C,

You said: Some people don't have to have a reason.

I think one would have to have a very good reason to train for five years for a suicide.

I think terrible attack has put a lot of focus on the relationship between the west and certian parts of the world. It is my optimistic hope that this focus will bring understanding and that this understanding will bring peace.

If the past has proven one thing it is that America can do anything when she does it whole-heartedly.

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: Marymac90
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 11:34 AM

Well, I believe, along with you, Kendall, that it's essential to ask ourselves why we have made these enemies in the Islamic world (not ALL Muslims, of course!) I think it has to do with our blind support of Israel, and our current lack of involvement in the Peace Process. I also think it has to do with our refusal to negotiate, such as the opportunity that presented itself at the UN Conference on Racism recently. And I also feel it has to do with our very public lifestyle that is the opposite of conservative Muslim beliefs. On my way to work, I passed a billboard promoting outdoor ads, saying they were "hot". The illustration showed two pink peppers, positioned in such a way to suggest female legs. This is just one VERY mild example of the kind of thing that Muslims would find offensive. It's not simply a matter of our troops in Saudi (male and female) providing many opportunities to offend, but our culture is totally pervasive. Movies, music, TV, websites, etc, are all shipped and sold overseas. They feel that our CULTURE is at war with theirs, and is trying to annhialate it. One last thing about troops we may have stationed in Muslim countries--prostitution INVARIABLY increases in the vicinity of troop camps. I hope this gives people some grist for the mill, re: why.

Marymac

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: Kim C
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 11:40 AM

Maybe so, Jack... Like I said, I don't get it. I'm tryin, though.

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: Deda
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 11:47 AM

Israel and her little corner of the world are not so foreign as all that, for a lot of Americans. There are millions of American jews who have parents, children, grandchildren and siblings living in Israel, and at least tens of thousands of people have dual citizenship, US-Israeli. Obviously this means that there are also millions of Israelis who have close relatives living in the US -- and not just in New York and New Jersey, either. American culture is woven into Israeli life, and most Israelis don't mind being able to buy Disney videos, Dell computers and Kodak instant cameras. You can hear plenty of english being spoken in the streets of Jerusalem. America has to be able to absorb Arabs, too, and Muslims from all over the world -- that is part of the glory of America, and they should be welcome. On the other hand, it is hard for me to envision them becoming as intimate and familiar and accepted a piece and part of the American community as Israel and American Jews are. For one thing, millions of non-Jewish Americans, myself included, have married Jews. That alone creates a vast network of relationships that can't be severed or disentangled, or even calculated. (I have since divorced and re-married, but I still have that strong network of relatives and relationships.)

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: kendall
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:14 PM

Amos, what WE think is not the issue here. It is what THEY think. Having the troops of an infidel nation on holy ground (Saudi Arabia) is an un forgiveable sin to them. Of course we were invited by the Saudi government, thats why Bin Ladan considers them (the Saudis) traitors to Islam. Thats why the Saudis took away Bin Ladans citizenship. It's an internal struggle between the moderates of Islam, and the psychopaths who follow Bin Ladan. We have made this mistake in so many countries, it is pitiful! Knowing your enemy is one of the first things you must do to lick him. That being the case, our ass is grass, and they have the lawn mower. However, if we were to wise up and get down in the mud with them... We need human intelligence on the ground over there, but, if we go dropping bombs all over the place, we will alienate ALL Muslims, which is exactly what Bin Ladan wants.

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: Amos
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:23 PM

Kendall:

I count you as among the wisest of the Cats and I concur that HUMINT in the market places and homes is what we need more than anything. I believe that what they think occurs at two levels -- some of it is controlled thought, just as occurs here, through rhetoric and advertising and religous indoctrination. Some of it is genuine human thought.

Regardless, it is HUMINT that we lack and knowing and befriending the grassroots over there is the only way we can really find out who is strring up which pot with which stick.

A.

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: kendall
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:29 PM

I'm honored Amos. Been thinking the same of you. If they get the idea that we are out to destroy Islam (thats what Bin Ladan tells them) we will never get anyone on the ground, and without that, we can not get them all.

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: Kim C
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:30 PM

I thought Saudi Arabia took away bin Laden's citizenship because they didn't want to harbor a known terrorist. But I don't know that for a fact. Also his own family has disowned him but I don't know the details on that either.

I said on another thread, we will have to have people on our side who can get into these groups. Spies, if you will, informants.

If bin Laden can be a "guest" in Afghanistan, why can't we be a "guest" in Saudi Arabia? Is bin Laden unaware that the US has a HUGE and growing Muslim population? That being the case, why are we infidels?

I know, y'all are thinking those are some pretty stupid questions. But like I said, I don't fully understand the mindset of these people, and those are the kind of questions that come out of my own brain. I'm just an unfrozen caveman, after all.

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: kendall
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:24 AM

No question is stupid if you dont know the answer. Saudi Arabia took away his citizenship because he has corrupted the faith. He has gone totally against the teachings of the Koran, and they want no part of him. He is a nut to them.And, a damn dangerous one at that.

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: Nemesis
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 12:06 PM

Kendall -

Well put! Which is why (referring to the Infinite Justice thread) we should not "alienate" Muslims by using ill-advised words like "infinite" and "crusade".

As for people on the ground - this is where the CIA comes in for stick, they have invested in hi-tech satellite and eavesdropping technology and thus is reliant on 2nd hand knowledge (A source with direct knowledge of CIA operations said: "We always got our information from the British and I think they got most of theirs from the Pakistanis") Between 1979, when the Societs invaded Afghanistan, there were no (CIA) Dari or Pusto speakers in Afghanistan, and soon after Moscow was driven out in 1984, the CIA left too. Despite the growing threat from bin Laden and his associates there was no attempt to cultivate contacts with Ahmad Shah Massoud, leader of the Northern Alliance, until 1999. Now he is dead, probably by associates of bin Laden and America's best chance of obtaining information about its most serious foe on the planet may well have died with him.

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 12:41 PM

Of course, when I ask myself why, I can only answer based on what I know, and, not having been involved, I don't know much. But I suspect that this attack was not motivated by a principled objection to anything about America or the West--I do believe it was revenge for a specific event, though not knowing who was ultimately behind the attack, I can't say what event that it might have been--

This morning, I read something about the war in Afghanistan that I did not know, and am not sure if I believe--but it sure has given me a bit to think about--Specifically that the Mujahadeen, Bin Laden, and all, did not know that they were being trained, indoctrinated, and sent off to die by the CIA,hiding behind a veil that included Zia, and a number of fundamentalist Mullahs--The war against the Russians destroyed what there was of Afghanistan, cast the many tribes into exile, and left a legacy of many, killed and maimed. If it were your country, and you discovered that the "Jihad" was actually a cynical front for American action against it's long time adversary, I would reckon you'd be a bit peeved--

Just another possibility....

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: harpgirl
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 01:48 PM

Kendall, we only know for sure that the MEN hate us! The women are not free to speak out!

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: harpgirl
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 01:52 PM

and by the way, I think the root cause of all these atrocities is that Muslim women are not free to take full part in the political, economic, social, and religious life of Islam.

Prove to me otherwise! The only way to test my hypothesis is to FREE MUSLIM WOMEN!!!! Then we will be on a level playing field with these folks. I think the world would look very different if we had full equality between men and women!!!!!

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: Troll
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 01:59 PM

The Saudis expelled him because he has gone against the tenents of Islam and he's pissed at us because we have troops on Saudi soil even though we were invited there by the Saudi government so we should leave so he won't be pissed, even though such a move would be a slap in the face to the Saudis.
Now that makes a while lot of sense.

troll

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:01 PM

Troll: Ah, but lets not forget, not only did he not support the Saudi government, but plotted with other terrorists that were out to attack that government. This man has no love for life or country. He loves only the power he can wield.

As to women being the answer? Don't know... interesting theory. But, judging from the accounts of the Soviets. Women were far and away more violent than the men. The women would kill the injured soviets that got left behind.

*Conversation overheard by General Rednek to his troops*

Heh.. We're goin' to war boys!

ALRIGHT! What's the cause?

We're goin' fer their women!

ALLLRIGHT!

We're gonna free them and give them equal rights.

oh.... right...

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: Midchuck
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:24 PM

Let me see if I've got this right.

We need to respect their beliefs.

We need to free their women.

But their beliefs involve keeping their women in subjugation.

Do we need to make a choice here, or am I missing something?

Peter.

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: sian, west wales
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:36 PM

I'm more than a bit uncomfortable with the idea of 'befriending' people so that they can be turned into informants. How about befriending in order to become ... umm .. friends.

You might be 'asking yourself why' but you're answering within a very narrow definition of the question.

sian

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: kendall
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 04:37 PM

Troll, you keep missing my point. We are not dealing with what makes sense to you. We are dealing with a psychopath, and HE says it is a mortal sin to allow foreign troops on Saudi soil. We must deal with things as they are, not as we would like them to be.

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: kendall
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 04:43 PM

HG, some countries have total equality of the sexes. The UK for instance, remember Maggie Thatcher?

Here again, how do we know the truth? We believe they keep their women in virtual slavery. THEY say, their women are totally protected by their faith. The Koran forbids killing women, they dress as they do to keep men from lusting after them. As I understand it, rape is almost unheard of in Muslin countries, maybe the lack of booze has something to do with it?

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: kendall
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 05:16 PM

I believe that women everywhere have the right to be equal with men, but, am I right? Most western nation people would agree, most Moslim countries would disagree. Now what? Who is to be the final judge?

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 05:51 PM

Up until the Taliban took power, though, Afghan women had careers outside the home, some of them highly educated (i.e., medical doctors). I don't know enough about Islam to say this for a fact but I would guess that the religion wants to protect and respect women, but that the Taliban corrupted that into virtual imprisonment. Don't know, just a guess.

The low rape rate may also be because of the strict punishments! Don't they cut off parts of you for that, or is that just an unfounded rumor? Then again, it could be that women just don't report it for fear of being blamed themselves.

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: Gareth
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 06:50 PM

It might have something to do with the lack of weight applied to a Womans Word in a fundamentalists Court, sorry "Court" - mind you that phenonemen is not confined to Afghanistan. Look at conviction rates for rape in the UK Courts, its not very clever, something like 7% if my memory is correct.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: GUEST,pete
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 08:02 PM

root causes? history - crusades - colonial humiliation - now western culture - Macdonalds and Coke, sex in entertainment and advertising - all coming from the west. they may be offended by sex in advertising but they are also offended by couples holding hands in public even if they are man and wife. Of course when a western woman was gang raped in an Islamic country recently they threw her in jail (I dont know the details but this was in the news) for because she was wearing clothes that encouraged her attack. Why are they not offended by that? why are they not offended by the practice of female circumcision (which is not condoned by any religion) but is a custom in some Middle Eastern countries. Stoning of women who commit adultery. on the other hand a fellow I knew recounted a scene in a Bangkok hotel when he witnessed a young girl running naked screaming down the hall being chased by a fat arab. I guess Allah wasnt watching, as when the hijackers boozed up in a bar prior to the terror attacks. SOme of these guys believe that Islam must conquer the world (the Al Badr organization) which funds the terrorist training camps in Pakistan. They see the west as evil, I dont think it really matters if America were to change its foreign policy, its support of Israel, it would still be a target for what it represents. Look at the idiots in pakistan demonstrating against the govt giving support to US. Bin Laden the hero america the Satan. Even the actions of the Palestinians dancing in the streets and handing out candy and dessert indicate just how warped many of their belief systems are, and how easy it is to keep ignorant or uneducated people in the dark. (and folks this wasnt just a few kids - and a couple of adults - Arafat (after giving blood in sympathy for US) ordered to seize other videos (by AP journalists) of thousands of people dancing with Palestinian police) Associated Press caved in after its Journalists were threatened.

Ask your self why? you might as well ask a murderer or psychopath why he thinks the way he does. its more important to shut them down. Through covert means, ie. learn from the Mossad get their leaders with rocket attacks, planted bombs etc. Any mullah or religious leader advocating death of Americans or other westerners should be himself silenced. Then they might get it.

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: GUEST,dorrie
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 08:39 PM

Hi.

I'm new to this site and thread, but I'm impressed by how civil everyone is to each other on this volitile web of issues.

Re. mutual respect between genders, I think the Muslims and Christians and atheists probably fall into a very similar spectrum from idolization & abuse to love & repect. I think Gareth's absolutely right, in general if not precisely.

Re. Why the attack? In a 1998 interview, Bin Ladden states why he and his fellow fighters attack the U.S. (Basically, the U.S. support of Israel and perversion of Arab governments to further U.S. military domination of the area.)http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/dailynews/terror_980609.html The interviewer in 1998, has since been interviewed as has another journalist of that area, Eric Margolis: they both indicate that he in no way seems crazy or maniacal.

All I gotta say is: the U.S. gov. is there, and we & NATO set up & help Isreal, and influence Arab governments not because U.S. policy makers care about the Jewish prophecies, but so that we can have military domination of the most oil rich area of the world. (The toll this takes on both Jews and Muslims in the area could be seen as a continuation of Gentile anti-semitism: the Palistinians pay w/ every liberty, the Isrealis w/ some death and the constant anxiety & guilt of war, and the rest of the world happily drinks up the cheap oil.)

If we could convince our government (wishful thinking, I know) to spend the 40+ billion not on military but on implementing a whole new non-oil based energy system, then maybe we wouldn't have to dominate and control that part of the world. We're going to run out of oil eventually anyway, why not convert now (besides the fact that we'd ruin the fortunes of the oil barrons and many corporations).

Clearly dreaming in Seattle,

Dorrie

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: kendall
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 10:03 AM

Pete, that's just the kind of drum beating, flag waving jingoistic crap that got us hated in the first place. I am in no way condoning what they did. I AM saying, in their minds, they had good reason. Will we ever learn? I doubt it, as long as we suffer from testosterone poisoning, we will go to war. We have the biggist supply of weapons in the world. Do you really think we can blast them out of existence? Read some history Mate. Killing for peace is like balling for chastity. It just dont work. About that pile of weapons...when the only tool you have is a hammer, then, every problem looks like a nail.

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: GUEST,AKRick
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 12:56 AM

The Saudis "inviting" US troops onto their soil was not so clear-cut. It was well known that Iraq was upset with Kuwait over slant drilling into their oil fields, among other things. The Kuwaitis were stealing hundreds of millions of dollars worth of oil at a time when Iraq was attempting to pay back debts owed from their war with Iran.

When Iraq invaded Kuwait, the Saudis did nothing. They understood that Saddam Hussein had no interest in invading Saudi Arabia. Days later, Secretary of State James Baker was rushed to SA claiming to have satellite pictures showing a massive military build-up on the Saudi/Iraqi border. Photos later obtained from the SoyuzKarta satellite show the US claim to be false. By then, the troops were in. Saudi Arabia was also promised $12 billion in arms sales. The Saudis were not the only ones manipulated into supporting the gulf war. The Soviet Union was promised $7 billion in aid from various countries and shipments of food from the US. Zaire was promised forgiveness of part of this debt as well as military assistance. A $7 billion loan to Egypt was forgiven, a loan the president had no authority to forgive under US law. Syria was promised that there would be no interference in its actions in Lebanon. A $140 million loan for the World Bank to China was unblocked by the administration. The US also paid off $187 million of it's debt to the UN. Numerous other instances can be cited. Some countries, such as Yemen, were threatened. When Yemen voted against the UN resolution, the US immediately cut off US funds for food and medicine.

The recent decision by Pakistan to allow the US military to use the country as a staging area can be seen in the same light. It was in todays news that some of the sanctions, imposed after Pakistan exploded a nuclear device, will be lifted. Billions of dollars in debt will be forgiven. One can imagine what kind of threats were used if Pakistan refused to submit.

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: ddw
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 10:13 PM

Kim C — You're not the only one who doesn't get it. I don't think most sane people would, but I basically agree with Kendall's assessment of the whole thing. We're not really dealing with somebody who is playing with a full deck. I think a pretty good analogy would be that bin Laden is sorta like Jerry Falwell with a big stash of rocket-propelled grenades and assault rifles. These are not people who can be reasoned with. They have the revealed word of god and that is that evil must be stamped out. But they're the ones with the inside track on god's definition of evil.

Probably one of the biggest differences is that Falwell is still spewing his vitriol in the hopes of getting more money for himself; bin Laden already has all the money he needs (with some states chipping in pretty handsomely to his operations) and he really believes he has identified the infidels.

david

Subject: RE: Ask yourself why
From: Crazy Eddie
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 01:04 AM

Kendall, 21 Sep. 09.15. PM
"I believe that women everywhere have the right to be equal with men, but, am I right? Most western nation people would agree, most Moslim countries would disagree. Now what? Who is to be the final judge?"

GOD of course. And according to MY interpretation (which is the only true interpretation, all others being mistaken at best, heretical & Satanic at worst) of MY Holy Book (which is the only true HOLY BOOK, all others being mistaken at best, heretical & Satanic at worst).

Since
GOD
made the whole question very clear through his prophet(s) (Who was/were Divinely Inspired), not only is there no need to discuss it further, it would be extremely sinful to do so.

Indeed, if anyone persists in disagreeing with me, after I've brought them the true word of GOD, I may have to kill them for their own good.

Strange really, when you consider that these days, we either medicate, or lock up, people who hear voices in their heads.