How can I keep from Singing

Subject: How can I keep from Singing
From: GUEST,Áine Uí
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 02:07 PM

Does anyone know the origin of the song My life goes on in endless song Above earth's lamentation I hear the real though far off cry that hails a new creation etc. Enya atributes it to the Shaker tradition but I have been unable to trace it there... Áine

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 02:42 PM

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/h/c/hcaikeep.htm (click here)

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: Genie
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 03:03 PM

Isn't this in the DT, too, as well as many parodies? (See also the thread about "How Can I Keep From Purring?"

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 03:07 PM

The version in the DT (click here) gives a SingOut! reference, which says:

"A small-scale mystery is building up around this song. Pete Seeger learned it at Christmastime, 1956, from Doris Plann, who said that her Quaker grandmother in North Carolina had taught it to her. The grandmother said that it was her favorite song and that it had been written during the early days of the Quaker church, 250 or more years ago. As is well known, the Quakers did not sing hymns in church since they did not believe in "decorating" the church services in any way.

"The editors [of SingOut!] have been unable to find a version of the song in any of the standard hymnologys. Ira D. Sankey's collection of "Gospel Hymns," published in 1894, contains a version whose second and third verses are more in keeping with 19th Century church traditions--but whether the Sankey version came firstt or second cannot be determined by the external evidence. the internal evidence leads us to suspect that the North Carolina version probably pre-dates Sankey's. ..."

There's a tune in the DT too--pretty song. And if you type the title into the blue box at the top of the page that says "Digitrad and Forum Search" you'll come up with a whole bunch of thread hits that may have more info.

Hope this helps!

Lin

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: masato sakurai
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 03:10 PM

This hymn was contained in Gospel Hymns Nos. 1 to 6 Complete (1895, p. 250 [no. 244]), edited by Sankey and others, where the author's name was "anon." In any way, the author is Lowry, the composer Sankey (Samuel J. Rogal, Sing Glory Hallelujah: Historical and Biographical Guide to Gospel Hymns Nos. 1 to 6 Complete, Greenwood, 1996, p. 86). I can't understand why this is called a Shaker hymn. I checked Daniel Patterson's The Shaker Spiritual (Princeton, 1979), but of course this is not there.

~Masato

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 03:15 PM

Aghhhhh! Left out the most important part from SingOut!:

"Addendum (Fall 1992) & Clarification

"The two paragraphs ... [quoted in my last post] appear as they did in the original "Reprints from Sing Out!--Volume 8."

"Some of the descriptive information which appears in those paragraphs has been found to be inaccurate. "How Can I Keep From Singing" does not derive from North Carolina Quakers. The original words and music (i.e., the first verse at the left and the 2nd and 3rd verses as they appear in "Sankey") were composed by Anne Warner and Rev. R. Lowry, and published in 1864. The third verse (which begins with the words "When Tyrants Tremble," and is included above) was composed by Doris Plenn about her friends imprisoned during the McCarthy era."

Emphasis above is mine. This material, and my last post, are transcribed from The Collected Reprints From Sing Out!, Volumes 7-12, 1964-1973, ISBN 1-881322-00-9, published in 1992.

Lin

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: GUEST,Burke (from a Public Computer)
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 03:59 PM

Lowry, who wrote a bunch of songs we'd now call 'gospel' is the composer 1870's off the top of my head. He may have written the words, but that is not quite clear. The last verse is not part of the original.

The Quaker bit is a mistake by Pete Seeger when he first collected it.

There have been threads on this is the past that I will now go look for.

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: GUEST,Burke again
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 04:11 PM

Click here for the 1st date of publication, etc.
Click here for more recent background

This is a wonderful hymn that, IMHO, the folk musicians rediscovered & gave back to the church. The original date for the words is not clear, but they do come from during or shortly after the Civil War. I think that gives lines like "Through all the tumult and the strife" a special meaning at times like these.

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: GUEST,Áine Uí
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 02:20 PM

Dear All Thanks so much for your very helpful replies. I am a singer in the Irish tradition and only straying into this wonderful world of spirituals recently. Lots of references for me to look at now. thanks again Áine

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 10:01 PM

For what it's worth, I found it in a Hymnal borrowed from (and since returned to) the Quaker Meeting-House up in Winthrop, Maine. This was a fairly current Hymnal, and mentioned that a couple of the verses had been inserted since original publication. I got the impression that it was generally considered to have been created in the context of the Quaker tradition and has been preserved and frequently sung therein ever since.

It has been a while since I studied Quaker (not to be confused with "Shaker") theology and history, but I seem to recall that there long has been a broad spectrum of practice and ideaology within the tradition; some Communities are quite structured and reserved, while others seem to emphasize social activisim to the point that "religion" almost seems secondary. Apparantly still other Quaker Meetings are markedly evangelical, charismatic, or hardly discernable from Protestant Fundamentalist "Hellfire and Brimstone" fellowships.

But to say that music is or was not an integral part of the Quaker worship tradition may not, as far as I can tell, be completely accurate. In the Durham ME Meeting I have attended, it is common for someone to get up "as the Spirit moves" and start singing a song, which may or may not be in the Hymnal. If others feel so moved, they pitch right in, sometimes picking up the harmony a cappella. It can be beautifully worshipfull and moving. At the Winthrop Meeting, the Elder I chatted with told about "The Blessing of the Animals" service they hold once a Summer, where all are encouraged to bring dogs, cats, or any other pet that is special to them to Church. Of course they all have to get up front to sing "All God's Chillen Got A Place In The Choir" complete with clapping, woofing, meowing and whatever joyful noises present themselves. I have yet to get in on one, but surely hope to with "The Hooligans" (pair of Yorkie-Poohs). Ya gotta love 'em!

Matter of fact, I've never known a Quaker I didn't like.

BTW, Aine; "How Can I" is a lovely tune on the tin whistle or Irish flute... and times indeed seem ripe for a resurgence of appreciation for some of these old Gospel songs of Hope and Faith.

You should be able to find a score for it online, but if not & u want one, send me your E-dress via PM and I'll try to send U a scanning. I think I have it transcribed to "D" (##) for the whistle.

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: GUEST,BigDaddy
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 10:58 PM

Anybody got a simple three chord version for geetar?

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: MartinRyan
Date: 04 Nov 01 - 06:19 PM

Áine

????

Regards

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: Haruo
Date: 05 Nov 01 - 02:06 AM

There are two commonly used tunes, both from the same era and in the same general style, one composed by Lowry (who was also in the main responsible for the hymn text) and the other by Sankey. Both are given in The Cyber Hymnal (the background MIDI is Lowry's; for Sankey's you'll have to click). (Both tunes are also in my Esperanto hymnal: La vivo fluas.) The above Sing Out! reference is the first and only place I've seen Anne Warner mentioned as having a hand in the writing or composition. And (Joe Offer may be able to confirm this) I believe that one of the major recent American Catholic hymnals (maybe GIA's Gather II, I'm guessing) has the text set to another tune? Maybe not; I may be thinking of "I bind my heart this tide"

Liland

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: Burke
Date: 05 Nov 01 - 07:00 PM

Uncle Jaque, please follow the links to the earlier threads. The explanations about how it came to be attributed to the Quakers can be found there.

The modern Quakers seem to have gotten it from the Folk Music movement.

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 05 Nov 01 - 07:28 PM

"Big Daddy";

I'm not sure you can pull this one off with just 3 chords, but it ain't all that bad, really.

According to the Hymnal (I really like Hymnals that give you the chords) "Fruits Of Worship" #245 they go (Key of "G"):

G - C - G - D7 - G - Am - G - D7-G - (C) - D7 - G - Am - C-G - D7-G.

You probably won't take long figuring out where they go in the song, and these chords work pretty well for me. I use a melodic fingerpicking style on the guitar; it would be nice on or with a mandolin, fiddle, bull-fiddle, or flute. I can't see a banjo adding much to this one, but some really clever ol' Picker just might get it to work.

It's got a few real pretty but tricky transitions in there, so listen to the MIDI on CyberHymnal (or a recording if you've got one) carefully several times over if you don't sight-read music real well (like I don't) so as to get the tune down solid. If you can get a Lady who can sing a nice soprano or alto harmony over your baritone or tenor melody, man; this one'll really give ye the collywobbles & goosebumps!

In the book they claim that the "Words" to Vs. 1,2,&4 are "Anonymous" and V.3 ("When tyrants tremble...") is attributed to Doris Plenn, (C) 1957, Sanga Music Inc.. Music: "American gospel hymn".

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: CapriUni
Date: 05 Nov 01 - 10:56 PM

As someone who was (loosely -- didn't go to meeting much, but was taught the philosophy and allowed to make raised in the Liberal Quaker tradition of Pennsylvania (loosely -- didn't go to meeting much, but was taught the philosophy and allowed to make what I would of it), I can say these things:

It is true that the early Quakers (or to use the official name: Friends) didn't use music or even a preacher in their meetings. Friends believe in a direct communication between God and the worshipper, and songs, stained glass, pulpits, etc. were all seen as a distraction from the act of truly listening to the Spirit Within.

However, it is also true that Friends believe that the Spirit of God speaks directly to the heart, and when the Spirit moves you, it is your obligation to act on it. So if a person is moved to sing, they sing.

And the lines:

"It finds an echo in my heart,
How can I keep from singing?"

is most definitely in keeping with the Friends belief.

So however unlikely it is to have a Quaker hymn, this may be a likelier candidate than others...

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: CapriUni
Date: 05 Nov 01 - 11:12 PM

The Cyber Hymnal link, above, gave an older version of the song. Does anyone know where / when this verse came in?

What though the tempest loudly roars
I hear the truth -- it liveth!
What though the darkness 'round me close,
Sounds (or ?songs?) in the night, it giveth. No storm can shake my inmost calm
While to that rock, I'm clinging.
Since Love is Lord of Heaven and Earth
How can I keep from singing?

The substitution of "love" for "Jesus" or "Savior" would suggest that it's modern. Did Doris Plenn pen this as well?

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: Burke
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 11:20 AM

Modern Quakers indeed sing this song. 19th century Quakers may have sung apart from there meetings. So far as I know there is no evidence that there is any Quaker background to the song. Pete Seeger's source singer was not a Quaker.

There is no question that Robert Lowry wrote the tune & no one is sure of where he got the words from or if he wrote them himself.

Robert Lowry also wrote the music for lots of evangelical hymns. Here's more information about him. Marching to Zion is probably his best known.

And to quote Sandy Paton from the thread referenced above:
Doris Plenn was not a Quaker. She learned the hymn she later re-wrote as an Episcopalian. You will note that I hedged my bets in my earlier post by saying "I'm told" that Quaker meetings are traditionally silent (until someone is moved to speak, that is). The contemporary songs recently compiled into a modern Quaker "hymnal" (including the Sydney Carter contributions) would be likely to include "How Can I Keep from Singing" as a powerful song popularized by contemporary "folk" singers, along with similar songs of "spirit" and social awareness. To call it "a Quaker hymn" is to suggest that the later "adoption of an adaptation" by a group replaces the actual origin, which it surely does not. Boy, I must have made my position as clear as mud, as my mother used to say.

Sandy

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: Burke
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 11:46 AM

In thread 15922 Sandy Paton confirmed that Plenn wrote the final verse.

I have not seen that anyone has ever tried to explain the substitution of "Love" for "Jesus" or "Saviour". Pete Seeger could have changed it to make it more universal, or Plenn could have changed it to bring it more in keeping with the anti-McCarthy sentiments of the final verse.

When churches add it into their newer hymnals I wish they'd switch it back.

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: CapriUni
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 01:39 PM

Sandy --

I do not know if the word "love" was substituted for "Jesus". That was just a guess -- it sounds like a modern idea to my ears, but it is also true that 'love' scans differently from 'Jesus' and "Savior", and 'love' is the one fits the melody. So it may be original.

Or the whole verse may be new, along with the "tyrants tremble" verse. I don't know. That's why I asked. :-)

Personally, I like the verse (and the song) as it is poplularly sung now. And I see no reason why there cannot be two, equally legitimate versions of the song: One to sing in Christian worship, and one to sing for universal (all faith) social causes.

Subject: ADD: How Can I Keep From Singing
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 02:32 PM

The Cyber Hymnal has the following lyrics, which it says were written by Robert Lowry in 1860:

My life flows on in endless song;
Above earth's lamentation
I hear the sweet though far off hymn
That hails a new creation:
Through all the tumult and the strife
I hear the music ringing;
It finds an echo in my soul—
How can I keep from singing?

What though my joys and comforts die?
The Lord my Savior liveth;
What though the darkness gather round!
Songs in the night He giveth:
No storm can shake my inmost calm
While to that refuge clinging;
Since Christ is Lord of heaven and earth,
How can I keep from singing?

I lift mine eyes; the cloud grows thin;
I see the blue above it;
And day by day this pathway smoothes
Since first I learned to love it:
The peace of Christ makes fresh my heart,
A fountain ever springing:
All things are mine since I am His—
How can I keep from singing?

---

Liland mentions a Catholic version that's a bit different. The GIA (Gregorian Institute of America) hymnals have a couple variations on the Lowry tune. Ed Gutfreund wrote a version published in 1975 by North American Liturgy Resources, now part of Oregon Catholic Press. I wonder how people like the Gutfreund version - I sing a rendition which I guess is a mixture of Gutfreund and Lowry.

-Joe Offer-

---

MIDI file: KEEPSI~1.MID

Timebase: 192

Name: How Can I Keep From Singing
Text: traditional
Copyright: tune Copyright © 1981 by Ed Gutfreund
Tempo: 180 (333333 microsec/crotchet)
Key: D
TimeSig: 2/2 24 8
Start
0192 1 57 110 0160 0 57 000 0032 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 66 110 0528 0 66 000 0048 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 64 110 0528 0 64 000 0048 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 59 110 0720 0 59 000 0240 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 69 110 0528 0 69 000 0048 1 66 110 0160 0 66 000 0032 1 66 110 0160 0 66 000 0032 1 64 110 1296 0 64 000 0240 1 57 110 0160 0 57 000 0032 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 66 110 0528 0 66 000 0048 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 64 110 0336 0 64 000 0048 1 62 110 0336 0 62 000 0048 1 59 110 0720 0 59 000 0240 1 57 110 0160 0 57 000 0032 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 66 110 0528 0 66 000 0048 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 62 110 0912 0 62 000 0048 1 66 110 0336 0 66 000 0048 1 69 110 0336 0 69 000 0048 1 69 110 0336 0 69 000 0048 1 69 110 0336 0 69 000 0048 1 66 110 0192 0 66 000 0000 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 64 110 0528 0 64 000 0048 1 62 110 0528 0 62 000 0048 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 66 110 0528 0 66 000 0048 1 66 110 0160 0 66 000 0032 1 66 110 0528 0 66 000 0048 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 66 110 0160 0 66 000 0032 1 69 110 0912 0 69 000 0048 1 66 110 0336 0 66 000 0048 1 69 110 0336 0 69 000 0048 1 69 110 0336 0 69 000 0048 1 69 110 0336 0 69 000 0048 1 66 110 0192 0 66 000 0000 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 59 110 0336 0 59 000 0048 1 57 110 0720 0 57 000 0240 1 57 110 0160 0 57 000 0032 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 66 110 0528 0 66 000 0048 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 62 110 1296 0 62 000
End

This program is worth the effort of learning it.

To download the latest version of MIDItext and get instructions on how to use it click here

ABC format:

X:1
T:How Can I Keep From Singing
M:2/2
Q:1/4=180
K:D
A,4D2E2|F6D2|E6D2|B,8|-B,2D2D2D2|A6F2|F2E6|
-E8|E2A,6|-A,4D2E2|F6D2|E4D4|B,8|-B,2A,2D2E2|
F6E2|E2D6|-D4F4|A4A4|A4F2E2|D2E6|D6E2|F6F2|
F6E2|F2A6|-A4F4|A4A4|A4F2E2|D2D2B,4|A,8|-A,2A,2D2E2|
F6E2|E2D6|-D15/2||

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: Haruo
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 04:40 PM

I don't think there's anything "recent" or "modern" about "Love is Lord". Look at Charles Wesley's original text "Come, O thou Traveller unknown" (1990 United Methodist Hymnal #387) or at the first catholic epistle of St. John. This has always been in tension with other notions (e.g. "Jesus is Lord") in Christian theologizing, but it's been there since the inception. Some moments in hymnody (and some movements in ecclesiality) have been more prone to it than others, but it's never been foreign or even heretical to the beliefs of Christianity, orthodox or heterodox. It's certainly not something Lowry could not have written. Look at his "Chorus of Fire" for an idea of how unstaid his imagery could get, good Baptist that he was.

Liland
Baptist

PS Dr. Watts, the first great English hymn-writer, said of Wesley's "Come, O thou Traveller unknown" that it was worth as much as all the hymns he, Watts, had ever written. It contains phrasings like

Wilt thou not yet to me reveal
Thy new, unutterable name?
Tell me, I still beseech thee, tell:
To know it now resolv'd I am
...
Speak now, or never hence shalt move,
And tell me if thy name is Love.
...
'Tis Love, 'tis Love, thou diedst for me
...
Thy nature and thy name is Love...

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 08:36 PM

That "MIDI to Text" program looks pretty jiffy, but when I hit the link to download, we get a "not available" screen. What gives?

Any other mirror sites we could try?

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 09:07 PM

Sorry for the confusion, Uncle Jacque - Click here for a mirror site.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: Burke
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 09:15 PM

I was the one talking about the word substitution. Sandy just said the bit I quoted afterward the pseudo-Quaker source.

The references to Christ of the original that are treated as Love in the modern versions are consistent in older hymnals. The only question in my mind is if this is a change that Pete Seeger made, or if the change had been made before he got it. Plenn could have made the change when she added the verse or she had it from an oral tradition.

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: GUEST,BigDaddy
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 11:15 PM

Thanks, Uncle Jacque. This should be fun.

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 12:05 AM

Thanks, Joe; that one was a charm and I have been the past 3 hours or so fiddling with that program. The fruits of this endeavor are posted in a new thread "Tune Add: Experiment with MIDI-Text; 'Homeward Bound' 1864".

I'll be checking in to see how (& IF) it works! We have a lot of obscure old tunes stacked about which we would love to share!

"BigDaddy": Have a ball! This one ("How Can I..") is real good to end a set with, IMHO. It would also work, I suppose, at a funeral or Memorial service - although I sure hope you don't have to do many of those right away! I was just playing it on my tin whistle - lovely tune!

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: Haruo
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 07:01 PM

Here's a link to a thread I started in hopes of getting more on Lowry and his texts/tunes: Robert Lowry - texts and tunes.

Liland

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Aug 03 - 01:28 AM

My wife Christina and I opened our wedding ceremony with this song in January, 2002. Unfortunately, it didn't work. Our choir used to sing this song to the Ed Gutfreund variation of the tune, so that's the tune I picked. The choir hadn't done it for a number of years, and half the people in the congregation were folkies who knew the taditional tune - so we had a bit of a mess. The other songs were much better, and we ended the wedding with everybody singing "Let There Be Peace On Earth."
I don't think I'd use the Gutfreund version again. I think its a bit too "peppy," although it does overcome the tendency people have to drag this song down to dirge tempo. It's a wonderful song, but it does take a bit of work and direction to get a group to sing it well.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: open mike
Date: 21 Aug 03 - 04:32 PM

can these 2 threads be combined?

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: open mike
Date: 21 Aug 03 - 04:34 PM

oh i see they already have been...
ilove john mccutcheon's version
of this song, BTW.

Subject: RE: Help: How can I keep from Singing
From: ToulouseCruise
Date: 22 Aug 03 - 01:25 PM

Boy, did I get confused....

Not being familiar with the actual song, I thought this thread was actually from someone who wanted to STOP from singing, as it didn't have a Lyr: leader or anything like that! I was really curious to find out why they wanted to stop... ah well, back to my own little world now...

Brian