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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Betsy Date: 03 Sep 07 - 03:54 AM I understand a freak tidal wave hit the East coast of England in the late 1800's. The East Coast is not noted for such things. Yarmouth is almost certainly South of Scarborough, but ill informed singers have found it much easier to sing Yarmouth "down" to Scarborough instead of the correct "up to" Scarborough. Maybe synoymous ? with another well known song "won't you come down to Yarmouth town " |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Barry Finn Date: 02 Sep 07 - 11:07 PM Thanks Malcolm, now I know where that comes from, was wondering. Barry |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 02 Sep 07 - 09:04 PM Well, yes; in the first post of this very thread. Chris Ball's 'Lovely Rose of Clare' does indeed bear a striking melodic resemblance to 'Three Score and Ten'. Whether the imitation was deliberate or unconscious, I wouldn't know. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Barry Finn Date: 02 Sep 07 - 08:28 PM I was also wondering about the tune after being at a session last week where someone sang "My (or 'The') Lovely Rose Of Clare" which bares a striking resemblance to the tune used for "3 Score & 10" & where there were slight differences it was still in harmony though it had no chorus just a repeating refrain. I have no idea of the age of "My (or 'The') Lovely Rose Of Clare". About the "Down", I believe the "Down" as I've always seen it in print (Roy Palmer has it as "From Yarmouth 'Down' to Scarborough", see below) & heard it, referes to sailing downwind, doesn't matter if it's up on a chart or north if it's downwind it's down as far as a sailor's concerned. I believe we've done this before, from the Oxford Book of Sea Songs by Roy Palmer (p.274-275). "'In Memoriam of the poor fishermen who lost their lives in the Dreadful Gale from Grimsby & Hull, Feb. 8&9, 1889' is the title of a broadside produced by a Grimsby fisherman, WIlliam Deld, to raise funds for the bereaved families. It lists 8 lost vessels, the last 2 from Hull: Eton, John Wintringham, Sea Searcher, Sir Fred, Brittish Workmann, Kitten, Harold, Adventure & Olive Branch. I addition the names of some of the lost sailors are given, & there is a poem in 8 stanzas. This past into oral tradition, & in so doing lost 6 verses & aquired a new one (the last, in which an error of date occurs), together with a chorus & a tune. The oral version was noted from a master mariner, Mr. J. Pearson of Filey, in 1957, and has subsequently, with some further small veriations, become well known in folk-song clubs." Barry |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: GUEST,IanG Date: 02 Sep 07 - 07:15 PM Seems to me that whether the direction is up or down, whether they longed to fight, long did fight or long defied and whether people love the song or hate it, there can be no doubt that it has succeeded magnificently in keeping the storm in question in peoples minds. The superb information in these discussions has succeeded in telling a lot of people the date of the storm, the names of the fishing craft and the name of the writer. I think its a grat song and remember learning it with six others in the back of an old box shaped Austin on the way back from the folk club at teh Blue Bell in Hull in 1967 |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Big Al Whittle Date: 11 Aug 06 - 07:27 AM possibly they travelled down south from Yarmouth to Scarboro, hoping to miss the bad weather......via the Isle of Wight. I mean......seriously! I think what gives the lie to it, isn't the faullty navigation. Where would folksongs be if you dismissed them on grounds of Geography - The land of California, Sweet Home Chicago possibly. Fishing people by and large are optimists - you couldn't do the job otherwise. yes the working conditions are shitty. yes people get killed doing it - the safety standards are unquantifiable..... But if you felt as pissed off as most people sound, singing this song, you'd be slashing your wrists rather than setting out to sea. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 10 Aug 06 - 07:37 PM The chorus wasn't in the original broadside (the text of which is quoted in another thread on the same subject; see links above). We have it only from the set recorded by Nigel and Mary Hudleston, from "Jack Pearson and men" at Filey (no date, but given elsewhere as 1957), and this is the one that was popularised by the Watersons and from which, so far as I can tell, all other Revival variants derive. Pearson sang "down", if we are to believe the Hudleston transcription and the Waterson's understanding of the recording; and there is no obvious reason why we shouldn't. That doesn't mean that "town" is necessarily wrong (and it does make sense) but it does mean that nobody can say that "town" or even "round" is correct; those readings are interesting, but no more than guesswork and speculation. Interestingly, the editors of Songs of the Ridings comment that "It seems that the tune is a highly corrupted 'Jingle Bells', which dates from the 1830s." Now there's a thought. Listening to it with that in mind, I rather think I believe them. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: stallion Date: 10 Aug 06 - 07:16 PM I learned it from the singing of "Ralph Mc" Mell (he used to sing streets of london every week)and Mac at the Scarborough folk club, The West Riding Pub, in the late 60's, it was definately "down" then !!!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: GUEST Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:03 PM It's ROUND to Scarborough. Billy |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: GUEST Date: 10 Aug 06 - 04:55 PM They long did fight the bitter night |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Big Al Whittle Date: 10 Aug 06 - 04:45 PM well I think its lugubrious in the extreme. by the time the fishing craft and trawlers are fighting with the bitter swell for the second time, I'm mentally machine gunning the rubber dinghies. And theres still a way to go. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: bill\sables Date: 10 Aug 06 - 04:27 PM I always heard the song as "From Yarmouth round to Scarborough." Another line in the song which always brings debate is "They longed to fight the bitter night" which I translated as "They long defied the bitter night" |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Bill D Date: 10 Aug 06 - 01:27 PM That's a strange song to 'hate'...Most folks I know think it is pretty well done and of historical interest. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: s&r Date: 10 Aug 06 - 12:55 PM I'm with Town Stu |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Richard Bridge Date: 10 Aug 06 - 12:23 PM Who? |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Big Al Whittle Date: 10 Aug 06 - 12:15 PM really really hate that song..... it is to folksinging what Kes and timothy Winters are to English teaching |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: MMario Date: 10 Aug 06 - 10:58 AM jo-jo; as explained above, Scarborough is DOWN from Yarmouth - in the terms of the fishermen and sailors. Just as Maine in the US is DOWN from Massachusetts, though UP on the maps. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: jojofolkagogo Date: 10 Aug 06 - 10:56 AM Well I always sing "from yarmouth TOWN " since it is UP and not Down to scarborough ! If it dont make sence, CHANGE IT Jo-Jo |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Wolfgang Date: 12 Mar 98 - 04:53 AM I listened (looked) at the four recorded versions and three printed versions I have. All of them have Yarmouth and Scarborough. Nearly all of them have "down", only M.Pollard, Ballads and Broadsides, has "up". Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Wolfgang Hell Date: 10 Mar 98 - 04:17 AM here's a copy from an old thread relevant to this thread:
I can add nothing about the original request I'm afraid. but I can throw some light on the point about "Three score and ten" by Ferrera. Scarborough is indeed north of Yarmouth, but in interpreting traditional folk songs you need to know a bit about the millieu in whivch they were created, The prevailing winds, currents and tidal streams of the East coast of Britain mean that going North is the "Downhill" direction, usually running with the wind on the port quarter, whilst going South meant beating into the wind. Hence amongst the sea farers the reference was always to going "down to the North".
However, I recollect hearing up to Scarborough from the singing of the McKenna Brothers. I'll relisten tonight. |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: John Nolan Date: 06 Mar 98 - 05:32 PM The nearest thing to Earmouth in Scotland that I know, Songster Bob, is Eyemouth, a fishing village (pop c. 2,500) in Berwickshire. In the local accent it's called approx. "Highmooth" by some. Then, in N. Northumberland, there Learmouth, pronounced Layahmooth, locally. But Earmouth, hmm? Could it be near Nozanthroat? |
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Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten From: Songster Bob Date: 06 Mar 98 - 04:03 PM Does the original have the line "From Yarmouth down to Scarborough"? Because some lively debate has gone on about that, given that it's not usually considered "down" to go from the one to the other. I read somewhere, in fact, that the original town was Earmouth, in Scotland, which, in dialect, gets a "Y" initial sound, as in "Yearmouth," and the vowel as well gets changed, so that "Earmouth" *sounds* like "Yarmouth." Can anyone confirm or rebut this suggestion? |
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Subject: A note on Three Score and Ten From: Wolfgang Hell Date: 06 Mar 98 - 07:09 AM I had always thought that "Three Score and Ten" was traditional in the sense that no author was known anymore; and "traditional" is the label given to this song on many of its recordings. I was quite surprised to find recently (source: R. Palmer, The Oxford Book of Seasongs) a note giving an author for the lyrics and telling the tale of how this song became "traditional" and, in that process, lost the correct dating of the disaster. Here's the note from Palmer in full length with a few corrections from another source:
Wolfgang |
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