An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 06:45 PM

now if only I could get rid of McGrath....

joke *grin* etc

Subject: RE:
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 06:56 PM

It was the warm and fuzzy and opening, where Max so nicely and politely told us that we guests suck, and would we please just feck off, so he can make some money off the site.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 06:58 PM

More proof that terrorism works--Max is considering relenting, and getting rid of the jackass two tiered log-in that members keep using to fuel the flamewars against guest posters.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 07:01 PM

"Please stop this behavior, I ask nicely, nay, I beg of you. There is no point to this. This forum is not just words on a page; these are people behind these posts. People who are here to share themselves, their knowledge, their time and even their homes. What you are doing is littering in the park. A free place we can all come to and do our thing, whether we want to meet people and discuss our interests or just sit on the benches and read. You are also personally attacking me. This is my creation, and you are ruining it. You are jeopardizing the only financing we have. If you do not hear my plea, and find some human compassion and stop this now, I will have no choice but to put a fence around my park to keep you out."   

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 07:07 PM

Thanks, Jeri, but we read that the first time, and weren't convinced

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 07:10 PM

This reminds me about the time when Max said on the radio "I know more about you than you realise"

Maybe you do, how much of it is useful?

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Max
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 07:21 PM

Your comparison of members and GUESTS is completely wrong. Which is the point. If you have a membership, you can send and receive Personal Messages. When a member gets upset, uses poor judgement, bad language, makes a personal attack, or anything that may cause grief to anyone, we communicate with them via PM. I cannot do that with GUESTS. I have had several interventions and discussions with Member Flamers and Trolls, and resolved them like adults. As I mentioned before, most were being belligerent for a reason and we discussed them maturely and actually formed some resolution.

You quibble about the technology of accountability and correctly recognize the futility. However, you have completely missed the point (again). I don't want you to register so that I can email you or track you down or call the FBI if you piss me off, I just want others to be able to communicate with you via PM. That way we keep the forum clean of disagreements that don't need to be in public.

Accountability means that someone can contact you in a safe and secure way, free from your email or any form of your true identity, when you insult them or disagree with them or whatever happens. It is still anonymous.

Try it, you might like it. Create a crazy codename, use a fake email address, whatever. Register as a member, continue about your business and check out some of the PM's you get. Who knows, maybe fighting with people in PM will be even more enjoyable than in the forum.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 07:22 PM

my, oh my, oh my...how they sputter and whine and rail when their ability to foment disharmony from behind a curtain is threatened!

Since I can't tell 'em apart, I can't really speculate on who, or why, or how 'they' came by a different attitude than 99% of the non-disruptive folk who come here.....(just as I can't comprehend the minds so full of rancor and hate that they blow up innocent people to 'show' the US that they disagree with us.)

Some 'guest' back up there claimed that WE, the members are to 'blame' for responding to trolls and flames...yep, 'tis true, we didn't keep our collective mouths shut when bullying trolls nit-picked and sometimes were just plain vicious!....I wonder if those same trolls tell their kids to 'just take it' when school bullies harass them week after week and month after month? More likely they are parents OF bullies who claim that the little wimps deserved it .....damn it, at least when school bullies do their stuff, you KNOW who they are!

I, myself, have made my opinions known about Mudcat, but I am HERE...out in the open. And, I am smart enough to see that there comes a point when you just have to shrug and understand that it is pointless to bitch when it is not YOUR decision!

Criticism of "Mudcat" as an entity, because it doesn't suit your .....ahem..."finer sensibilities" is like criticism of "America" or "England" or "Muslims"

wow, I do ramble, don't I? (Maybe I worry that I won't have 'guests' to kick around any more in a few weeks...*grin*)

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 07:23 PM

"You are jeopardizing the only financing we have"

Horsepucky!

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 07:25 PM

Max sez:

"How are GUESTS depriving Mudcat of support? Because these people and organizations that contribute see your stupid, spiteful posts and question the value and purity of information here."

So apparently Max has invented yet another new magic tech fix for Mudcat, whereby the stupid, spiteful posts of members are digitally stored with invisible pixels so the funders only see stupid, spiteful posts from guests.

About the human compassion thing there Max--some of us have been waiting for some human compassion to be shown to us guests who have been badly treated, insulted, and flamed by members here, but then hell froze over.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 07:28 PM

I just hope no one spawns a part 2 to this thread... let it pile up until it's so big that no one will WANT to open it...

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 07:29 PM

Thank you, Max

Your last message was eminently sensible

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 07:32 PM

The behavior of GUEST on this thread more than amply demonstrates the problem.

Max is the captain of this ship and he makes the rules.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Peg
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 07:32 PM

Hmm...ironic, isn't it, that the self-centered ARROGANCE that has these dumbass GUESTS posting willy-nilly to this thread in a gambit for attention, is yet not quite strong enough to get them to identify themseves? It is tempting to just think of these poor souls as terrified and perverse...

...but now I see them as childish, above all else.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 07:34 PM

I don't have hours to spend at the computer each day and I visit Mudcat not out of any desire for community or relationship but for information and amusement. I am not amused by someone being cruel to someone else. Nor am I amused by setting animals on fire or walking down a street with a baseball bat looking for someone to hit. As a rule I ignore threads like this one, and in threads I do check I usually move pretty quickly from comments that are intended to insult or inflame. I have skipped quite a few in this thread. But I do appreciate the many good things Mudcat has to offer. It has been a good source of reliable information and interesting opinions and is far more user friendly than any such sites I have seen. It is the only one I visit with any regularity. I guess my only real complaint would be the frequency with which I lose my cookie, and I have been too lazy to reset it. I have never understood or been too sympathetic for people who engage in vandalism or random violent attacts whether it be with rocks or words. If Max chooses to deal with it, it is his call. Mudcat may lose something, but I suspect that it will be a better place. I have never found civility to be an awful thing. The thought of excluding those who have no purpose for being here other than to vandalize and terrorize is not that awful either.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 07:35 PM

Please continue in Part 2

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Max
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 07:35 PM

Any Part II to this thread will be deleted as promptly as we can manage.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 07:36 PM

BillD, it was Jeri who pointed out the lack of self-control on the part of Mudcat members responding to troll bait by flaming, not a guest.

Max, there is no forum accountability when you keep all your members' dirty laundry hidden in the PMs. Forum accountability demands that readers see problems get resolved and dealt with publicly.

Sure, with your 1.8 million hits per month, 650,000 messages on 43,000 topics, 9000 members you are the Enron on the internet folk music block Max. And you're acting like it too.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 07:37 PM

Max-whatever you decide to do, is the right thing, this is your site, I have been here nearly 1 year.This was the first website I ever looked at, and, I still check in here almost every day, this is oneof the best websites on the whole internet, I have noticed a lot of really offensive things posted by guests recently, and I have reported them to Joe, I agree with you the time has come to say that's enough.john

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Chris Amos
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 07:38 PM

Hi,

Mudcat is a wonderful resource and has spawned a number of other sites that probably would not have happened without it. If the behaviour of certain gusts/ members is limiting the funding then Max is perfectly right, in my book, to do something about.

The net is a huge place there are plenty of other sites were flamers and trolls can go and be infantile to their hearts content, don't fell hard done by boys, but some of us would like to see the cat develop and go from strength to strength and not get bogged down in name calling and pissing about.

Regards

Chris

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 07:41 PM

Agreed, Chris Amos,

but how are we going to persuade Catspaw49 to leave?

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 07:50 PM

The other day upon the stair
I met a man who wasn't there.
He wasn't there again today.
I wish that man would go away.

Is there anyone out there who posts with a name, and who disagrees with that? One single person who would say that they appreciate the presence of our faceless friends?

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: PaulM
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 07:51 PM

Yes, me

I do

I've had loads of help, lyrics answered etc by them

Are you a racist too, McGrath?

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST,No Surrender
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 07:52 PM

Yer man Max sez:

"Any Part II to this thread will be deleted as promptly as we can manage."

And he will continue to exercise his cultural traditions by throwing petrol bombs at the terrorist guests until they accept Mudcat rule!

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST,The Mudcat Four
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 07:56 PM

Sure now PaulM, ye wouldn't want to be puttin' out the welcome mat out fer the likes a' us. Haven't ye been reading the warnin's they've been puttin' out on us? Made us an illegal sort of Mudcat poster. Next thing you know, they'll be hirin' actors to post to the forum to protect ye, so's the lot of ye don't get corrupted by our terrorist influence.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 07:57 PM

Thanx Max, re no part 2...

.-)

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 07:58 PM

"until they accept Mudcat rule!"

You seem to be labouring under the misconception that Mudcat is a democracy...

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 08:03 PM

Nah, Clinton Max is the one labouring under the misconception that he is running a fair forum.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 08:03 PM

Max has said his say and GUEST is soiling his/her/its pants in terror. So sad.

Hey, folks, there are a lot of good music threads out there. Why are we wasting our time here?

Don (off to the music threads) Firth

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST,Reeferee
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 08:09 PM

No Part II you say? Ah, now that's a shame. Max and his Mudcat Storm Trooping Hardshoe Dancers were so much more entertaining than the Drumcree Megasession guests, I was hoping you'd go to at least a Part VI.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 08:11 PM

"BillD, it was Jeri who pointed out the lack of self-control on the part of Mudcat members responding to troll bait by flaming, not a guest."

pooh..I was responding to "Rumplestiltskin" and one other un-named

Jeri is also correct, but when she says it, it doesn't mean quite the same thing...*wry grin*...(and if you don't see that, then you just don't)

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 08:17 PM

"fair forum"

Where the hell is it written that it is supposed to be fair?

Give yer stupid head a shake eh...

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 08:21 PM

By our "faceless friends" I don't mean people who post in good faith as contributors to the Mudcat, asking real questions or supplying real answers and so forth, whether they come in as GUESTS or as members.

I mean the petulant and insulting ones we've had in this thread we've had in this thread. Though very likely of course it's only one person. One too many.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 08:22 PM

Right then, let's put it in the Newcomers Thread "Where the hell is it written that Mudcat is supposed to be fair?" Good on ya there Clinton. T'anks fer pointin' that one out. We wouldn't want a fair forum, anymore than the members want to have a fair fight with guests, now would we?

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Hollowfox
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 08:25 PM

Max, I've always seen the 'Cat as a party, and you as the host. The only problem with the analogy is that it's not as easy to identify and possibly eject obnoxious participants. You've been the soul of rectitude all these years, and a lot more patient than I would have been. Your construction and maintenance of this site are nothing short of phenominal; it's a site that I recommend not only for content, but for the nature of it's construction. Do what you must with my blessings, because you're right and these rude people are wrong.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 08:27 PM

Fair is non-existant... Especially in cyberspace...

It's also unimportant... Especially in cyberspace...

Max... do what ever ya gotta do mate...

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: 53
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 09:35 PM

Max, we are with you on this.

Glenda and Bob

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From:
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 09:53 PM

Power to you Max

Jack

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Rolfyboy6
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 09:54 PM

Whee, paranoid personalities on display. Pull the plug Max, what's so hard about being accountable? I'd be honored to be on the list of helpers for guests with legit questions if that's what's decided.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 10:10 PM

Max:

Make the changes... please!

It takes only a moment to register. Your "real" identity is still not public. As people have said, there will probably also always be ways to register under different aliases and names. However, It does provide the ability to send PM's to people that are being jerks. It should also make those that are intent on posting truly nasty messages, threats, or other bile to pause for a moment.

I am a member of several email lists, and yahoo discussion groups and have participated in Newsgroups in the past. It seems that there is little lost when you must register. What is gained is civility and IMHO a higher level of discussion.

I don't see any downside to this! It is to your credit that you have tolerated behavior that no one would allow to take place in nursery school between toddlers if they the caregivers, much less in gatherings of adults.

JAB Jim Bunch Gutbucketeer

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: DougR
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 10:14 PM

I fear many of you, my friends, are playing the game the dissenters want you to play. Do not lose thy cool! Nothing anyone says will satisfy them, and there is no point getting a stroke trying. Their goals are different from ours. They get their kicks keeping you out of sorts. You know that. Act accordingly. Avoid replying to their devisive messages!

Peace! (Now who would have ever suspected a hawk like me signing off like that?)

DougR

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Devilmaster
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 10:43 PM

Ya know, I'm pretty sure Max thought long and hard about this. I also suspect that Max truly belives in free speech.

But, (and ya all knew a 'but' was coming...) free speech with accountability is still free speech. I support this change because although it's a fact trolls and flamers will still get online, the powers that be now have the ability to dump member accounts that are here to only flame and troll.

Remember people, we are visiting a website owned by one person. It is not a democracy, as CH mentioned.

Hey Max, do what ya gotta do. I enjoy coming here and sure I will still enjoy it without guests. (Maybe even more so)

Steve

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 11:18 PM

Yes please Max, hurry up and change the log-in so we don't have to listen to the membership drivel on for another decade about guests and the need for a benevolent dictator to make the members do what they can't make themselves do, which is ignore the trolls.

I'll say a rosary for ye, too if you'll just bloody change the fuckin' log-in thing by tomorrow.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST,catspaw50
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 11:21 PM

How about getting rid of stupid ass threads like "chest hair or no chest hair" and "kick Max in the balls". It's the public stupidity of the site that is embarrassing and will lose your "funding".

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 11:46 PM

I just said this in another thread but when I saw the animosity towards guests, I became a member. Now weather I am a member or guest, it does not change my opinions or what I feel I have to say. I feel fortunate to have stumbled into this site. It is a great place. The threads about shit I just leave them alone. They bore me. Max if you do change things please make them easy for I am a computer illiterate! Thanks Rustic

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 12:21 AM

Hi Max, yet another gratuitous piece of advice! Close Mudcat down for 12 months! The n'er-do-wells will find another site to despoil, and the Forum-addicted can go to rehab. You can have a break to re-charge your batteries and really find some quality time to stitch up future funding.

By Feb 2003, Dick G will have caught up with DT updates and no longer will anyone take this place for granted.

Just for good measure only allow Forum write access to paid subscribers. You'll figure out a way to ensure that song requests from non-members are satisfied. Email could work just fine.

See you in a year from now.

Regards, John [e-mail]

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 12:41 AM

Time Out!

There are members of this list who like to discuss purely musical topics, and other members who like to discuss music along with some chat of the day. There are Guests who like these same things, and then there are a the few immature guests who can hold everything up with flaming and arguing. All parties are here on this thread.

Most of the posts today have been in support of Max; take heart in that. Others have pointed out that even with logon protocols that some of the obnoxious guests will return. Yes, but they'll be filtered out and perhaps will get tired of trying after a while. I'm not going to goad them on. Some of this appears to be the result of disturbed minds, and they are to be pitied (and filtered out!).

Max, you'll drive yourself nuts if you read all of this. You've created a site that is powerful and enduring. And is in need of adjustment. Do what you must to keep the site you envisioned going strong.

SRS

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST,And Toto Too
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 12:50 AM

I vote yes for John in Brisbane's ideas. The forum addicted need some time in detox over in the Internet Addiction Support Group.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Mark Clark
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 01:14 AM

I've been away and just noticed this. Max, I'm sure you know you have my full support.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Haruo
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 01:43 AM

Yet another message of support.

Liland