Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning??? (MacColl)

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 02:50 AM

Gas ? made from oil ? no I think not Bert, in the UK it's natural gas if it's not bottled, then it's usually propane.

eric

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 03:54 AM

Bill S: Nobody knows about Salford cathedral largely because it's the Catholic cathedral, which don't count. Actually Manchester became a (C of E) diocese just a year or two before Salford became a Catholic one- around 1850. Manchester town became a city in the 1850s, but Salford (which had the older town charter) had to wait till the 1920s- I remember the 40th anniversary, when some of the (usually dark green) buses (*) were painted white and gold- which soon looked a mess in the general atmosphere of filth that surrounded the city back then.

The gasworks was just off Regent Road, about half way along, and indeed by the old (Manchester, Bolton and Bury) canal, which however was closed and disused when McColl wrote his song. Trains setting the night on fire would have been travelling on Stephenson's Liverpool and Manchester line, or the lines out towards Bolton or Walkden.

As for axes tempered in the fire, I remember my father singing taht verse from Dirty Old Town in the early 60s (I would have been 9 to 11) while heat- treating an axe blade he'd found buried in the garden, by heating it red hot in the open coal fire, then quenching it in a galvanised bucket of water, filling the living room with sharp- smelling steam. Mam was out.


(*) Mostly Daimler CVG6 for afficionados

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 11:50 AM

As an item of general information, coal gas was essentially Carbon Monoxide, which made suicide by sticking your head in an unlit oven, a feasible action. It hasn't worked since the switch to natural gas, which is essentially methane.

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 04:33 PM

Gas works is still there, PMB. Well, some of the buildings and a gasometer anyway. You are right about the location but it is actualy nearer Liverpool Road that Regent Road - In between Windsor Street and West Egerton Street, both of which link the two previously mentioned parrallel roads. A new road, Albion Way, now runs parrallel to the old Cross Lane where you used to pick up the start of Regent Road. What was the Cross Lane end of Regent Road is a huge Roundabout and the start of the M602.

Windsor Street crossed Liverpool Street, round about where Albion Way now is and ran up to Windsor Bridge and the Windsor Bridge sidings - Where you could have seen both the old canal (the MB&B as you rightly say) and a train set the night on fire in the same place:-) In fact, the gasworks croft was in the immediate vicinity as well so lots of the song could be spotted just by standing on the corner of Liverpool Street and Albion Way! I am not sure which factory wall is referenced but there were more than enough in the area. Now all gone.

Salford had a whole live city centre of it's own as well, all along the A6 (Broad Street, The Crescent and Chapel Street), Down Cross Lane and Ordsall Lane and all along Regent Road. There was the Cattle Market down Cross Lane and at least two quite large, well large to my eyes as a child, department stores. One of which had the old style 'cable network' that carried money and receipts whizzing overhead, much to my delight. Now we just have Salford Quays. Very pretty but a concrete ghost of the bustling industry and dockside it used to be.

I still live here but find it a little sad that while we have a university and a cathedral, giving us city status, we no longer have a city centre! Still, there was a shooting in one if my locals (Dog and Partridge, Irlams o' th' Height) a couple of weeks back. I suppose we still have some entertainment to be thankful for;-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 04:59 PM

Friday night. Nowt on telly. Not going out coz I'm up at 6:15 tomorrow so I got to thinking about what I just writtid and decided to update Mr MacColls song, So, with apologies to Ewan -

New old town. Dave Polshaw. 18 Aprl 2008.

I met my love, by the open fields
Dreamed a dream, by the concrete quays
Kissed my girl, by the retail park
Dirty old town
Where's that dirty old town?

I heard a concert, where the docks once were
Saw the neon, set the night on fire
Smelt the spring, on the sterile wind
Dirty old town
What dirty old town?

Clouds still drift, across the moon
Cats still prowl, along their beat
But girls don't go, out alone at night
Dirty old town
Dangerous old town

The planners took, a good sharp axe
Made of steel, but not made here
Cut the heart, from the living tree
Dirty old town
They cut it down.

Feel free to use, abuse or amend accordingly, just give me and Salford a mention if you do:-) I suspect it is true of lots of towns that had their 'clearances' in the 60's. They got rid of a lot of awful stuff, but sometimes I can't help but wonder if they threw out the baby with the bath water.

Oh - BTW - I did hear a concert where the docks once were only last week. Jethro Tull 40th Anniversary tour at the Lowry's Lyric theatre. Funny to think that when Ian Anderson was first standing on one leg, the docks, the factories and the slums in 'Hanky Park' were all still there:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 05:01 PM

Is that a mudcat record btw - 26 minutes to think of, write and type up a song? (And I checked it 3 times)

:D

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Amos
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:15 PM

Dave:

No, it isn't, but it's a good performance!!

If you look back over the Song Challenge Threads you will find the record in there somewhere. I think it was four minutes, or something.


A

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,Noreen
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 09:26 AM

>...coal gas was essentially Carbon Monoxide...

Carbon monoxide itself is non-combustible, but is a byproduct (along with cyanogens, sulphur compounds and other nasties) of the distillation of coal.

Coal gas contains approximately 50% hydrogen, 35% methane and 8% carbon monoxide.

You can still gas yourself with 'natural' gas, but it works more by displacement of oxygen from the air you are breathing rather than by poisoning.

Nice song, Dave!

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 10:35 AM

Thanks. Noreen:-) When will we see you back in Salford again?

The song's evolved and is evolving still - on this thread.

D.

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,Gaffer
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 08:37 AM

I recall a review years back in a national daily - ?Guardian perhaps - of a Pogues concert in Salford of all places in which the reviewer described it a song written about "their native Dublin" - I'm sure a Dublin reviewer would be slower to accuse "Cockles and Mussels" of being from anyone's native Salford!
Gaffer

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 09:16 AM

Each line conjures up more than just the image it literally describes.

eg "I'm gonna make me a big sharp axe - shining steel tempered in the fire"

Why an axe? literally it makes no sense ... shining steel? tempered in the fire? why all that information?

Well because it conjures up images of foundries, molten metal and hard industrial work - as was typical of the region.

The song is deeply descriptive and each word carries a descriptive subtext that goes deeper than even just physical description.

This is lyrical impressionism that describes the writers subjective experience of the town from an emotional point of view and has as its lens a love affair.

It is meant less to be about salford specifically than about human experience in an industrial town, hence iits abilty to mean something profound and beautiful to folks in such diverse places as sydney and dublin.

If you're looking for literal descriptions, buy a car manual.

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: ard mhacha
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 09:51 AM

The song captures perfectly the smoky old towns in the north of England,
I worked in a few of those towns during the late 1950s through the 60s. The song brings me back,and the memories are of happy times being young and fit, you didn`t care,smoke?what smoke?, nowts the bother.

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,Paula Flanagan Kesteloot
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 04:16 PM

I live in France, and was born in Salford, the town described in Dirty Old Town . If you knew what Salford used to look like you would understand the lyrics more. Another Salford song is Matchstalk men etc.. (can't remember the title) which is about the factory & Salford street scenes painted by Lowry. They belong together. This is Salford's history and nobody else can try to claim it. Here in France the men of the dirty old town (The Salford Pals) lie in soldiers' cemeteries around Thiepval and Authuille on the Somme. The song will be sung for them.
Das Lied beschreibt meine Heimatstadt. Es handelt sich um Salford.

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 12:38 PM

i am a canadian folksinger who grew up in the '50's and '60's and have just found and learned "Dirty Old Town" ... my sister and brother in law were visiting from Galway a couple of weeks ago ... the brother in law, John, gave me a number of cd's, one being 'Luke Kelly the Collection'containing the song as a version learned from Ewan ... being of Scot/Irish descent and my dad having been a coalminer in stellerton nova scotia, the imagery is easy for me to see ... i remember as a boy visiting my granparents in westville and stellerton and seeing them as dirty old towns ... the coaldust was everywhere and still burned in most of the homes... in winter the snow was black ... also even though our family has been here since the late 1700's i had heard the term 'croft' and not known what it was ... i am so happy to have found this site with the truth of the song ... i've always tried to sing songs as i believe they were origionaly written ... i just learned the song this morning and will be able to sing it, with confidence knowing where it came from ... dave macpherson

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,Mark
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:33 AM

The lyric I have always heard, which I presume to be correct is: "Smelled the spring on the smoky wind".

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:52 AM

I think that is what was written by Ewan, Mark.

D.

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,Ex Salford Guest
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 08:43 PM

Well well well, I never thought I would read a thread as long as this in it's entirity ,but I did.

I was born and raised in Salford and remember the town before "Salford precinct" or "Salford shopping city" as it is now known.

Cross lane the road leading down too the Docks was famous for having about 40 pub's within a mile, and you can imagine the sort of people that ran them,hard types with a gentle side,and some of the women that frequented ,you can guess their trade........one of them " Vinegar Vera" is STILL famous in the area if you want more info on her go to www.kersalflats.co.uk and check out the people Tab you will find the king of girl Salford used to produce,picture on there as well.

Someone mentioned it being at one time the most populated area in Europe I believe he was correct,nearly 250,000 population in 1931 now down to 72,000.

I went to school with the nephew of Harold Riley and through him met Harold and a cedrtain Mr L S Lowry.

Unfortunately one of the main employers in the area was The PIT Agecroft colliery, I made damn certain i wasn't going down that hell hole when I was in my last year at school by applying to join The Royal Air Force 6 months before the rest of the lads in our year did ! Thankfully I was accepted. I left at 16 and have rarely been back ,I am now 52,but, I am still a Salford lad. I went a few years ago to a funeral and met cousins and old friends i hadn't seen for years, to be met by "How do " a Salfordian shortened version of "How do you do?" after a short time one of my cousins commented " By heck,you aren't half posh now aren't you?" as far as I know I still have my Salford accent !!!!

The ships at the Docks certainly did sound at midnight New Years Eve and we used to listen to them herald the New Year and as kids loved it,all gone now as the Docks are salford quays.

Best rendition of the song in Temple Bar , Dublin , I think it was sort of adopted by some of the Irish lads that worked in the Manchester are as labourers ,made their money and went back home.As the singer introduced the song he said " here's a song you may recognise which a lot of people think is about Dublin,but was actually written about Salford" so even though The Dubliners made it a very famous song it still gets introduced as a Salford song.

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,Briceida Santiafo
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 05:17 PM

Sick and Psychotic!

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:53 AM

Some notes, after re-reading the thread:
Carbon Monoxide is certainly combustible,
The errors listed for the MacColl Songbook have been corrected in the new edition.
Dirty Old Town may have been written about Salford, but it's pretty damn universal.

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 01:02 PM

Yes, CO is certainly combustible, and also poisonous- it binds to the haemoglobin in the blood, preventing it from picking up oxygen. And it burns, which is why people put their head in the gas oven. As a child (in Salford as it happens) I was traumatised by hearing of someone killing herself in this way- I thought the oven was lit, and she baked herself to death.

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 12:25 AM

>And here's a picture of some unreconstructed gasometers - and you see what Gus Allen meant. "For mountains they would very nicely pass."<

Interests of accuracy ~~ Gus ELEN [pronounced 'Eel-en']: music-hall song "If it wasn't for the 'ouses in between" [1899], words Eugene Bateman, music George le Brunn, sung by said Mr Elen, distinguished m-h performer of the time, known also particularly for "The Postman's Holiday" and "It's a great big shame"...

I sing [a shortened version] of "The 'ouses in between", and intend to put it up on my Youtube channel shortly. Watch this space!

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 02:05 AM

I just now listened to Luke Kelly on YouTube sing Dirty Old Town (1976). He introduced it as a love song written for a town. He didn't mention its author but he did say it was Salford.

Subject: dirty old town
From: GUEST,ken
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 05:48 PM

It was "salford wind" which was orignally sung, but was changed to represent such the universality of the poor.
I lived in broughton, an area in Salford where Mccoll was born and known by many in the town.

Areaght?

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,Meow!
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 04:01 PM

i'm a high school student from NJ (USA) and i was doing a report on this song. i just wanted to say thank you very much to you all for the help. my great grandmother used to sing this to me and i never knew the meaning. this is one of the best songs i've heard and the lyrics flow perfectly. the fact that he wrote this in such short time is amazing! thanks again:)

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 08:12 PM

Greetings,

I'm ten years too late with my response to this topic though I would have only been eight years old if I would be seeing this topic ten years ago. I think Clinton should respect the song more. I always get tears in my eyes when I hear Dirty Old Town though I never knew what the meaning was until now, making it even more beautiful than it was. My city is getting the axe right now and is built into a bright city though the old industrial factories are declared monuments.

Just wanted to share this to show my affection to Dirty Old Town.

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 12:45 PM

"CO is certainly combustible"?? - really???
CO (carbon monoxide) is the result of incomplete combustion of methane CH4 which was one of the constituents of coal gas (as detailed by Noreen in 2008). Complete combustion in a proper oxgen supply generates CO2 - carbon DIoxide: less poisonous, but you can still get CO2 narcosis. Yes, CO does bind to haemoglobin very tightly, preventing oxygen transfer and binding, whereas carbon dioxide is much more easily displaced by oxygen to form oxyhaemaoglobin.
The "Dirty Old" bit apllies to the blackening by soot (carbon particles) of everything in the area, as well as to any atmospheric pollution. It wasn't the only Dirty old Town - my home town was called "Auld Reekie" after all!

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 01:53 PM

Carbon Monoxide is certainly combustible. Known as Coal Gas, it was the mainstay fuel for gas cookstoves until natural gas became available.

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 07:42 PM

Sorry, Dick, I stand corrected: it burns (oxidises) to CO2, but as Noreen has said, it only constitutes 8% of coal gas, the rest being hydrogen and methane. So Carbon monoxide on its own is not coal gas, but part of it.

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Paul Burke
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 07:52 PM

I thought I'd posted this earlier, but perhaps it didn't take...

According to Engineering Toolbox, the typical components of coal gas as produced in the Liverpool Road Gasworks of DOT fame (and every other gasworks in the country) were roughly:

CO2 3.8% CO 28.4% CH4 0.2% H2 17.0% N 50.6%

Note that useless (as a fuel) carbon dioxide and nitrogen make up over half the composition. That's an unwelcome, if unavoidable, result of roasting coal in air with its preponderance of nitrogen.

If my memory plays right, there was also a touch of hydrogen sulphide in the air around Liverpool Street, Cross Lane and Regent Road.

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: janemick
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 08:48 AM

Here in Brittany they are convinced it is a sea-song and nothing we can say will dissuade people from this belief.

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 11:47 AM

Why, janemick? What is the remotest bit nautical or maritime about it, to afford the Bretons such a conviction?

~M~

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 04:41 PM

I've never come across a thread this long!!!!

I only wanted to check whether the first line should end in 'croft' or 'wall'!

Amazing how it has stirred such emotions .. :)

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 05:40 AM

Can't admit to having read this thread but the first line is "I met my love on the gasworks croft"; or at least that was what the ex-Stockport resident, Jimmy Millar, originally wrote.

I seem to remember the Dubliners singing "gasworks wall" on the TV a while back so that might have added to the confusion.

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 06:06 AM

In general terms, this is a good thread about what we used to call, 'The Folk Process'..... how the words of a song are adapted to a singer's preferences, memory, or dodgy hearing.

I particularly liked 'Dirty Ardoyne'.

Thanks for a good discussion folks. Enjoyed it.

Tone

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 09:44 AM

"Jimmy Millar,"
Don't think so - I think it was written by Ewan MacColl - or maybe it was Robert Zimmermann!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 10:31 AM

That would be ' Jimmy Miller ' then.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,Rev Bayes
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 11:11 AM

Whoosh!

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 04:08 PM

I grew up in Salford . My mum used to hate the song . When she heard the spinners sing it I can remember her getting really irrate and saying "I bet they've never been to Salford."
As a child I can remember watching the steam trains and seeing the firebox glow at night.
My main memory of New Year's Eve was hearing the sirens of the ships on the docks at midnight.

Earlier in the thread famous Salfordiands are mentioned. One I haven't seen mentioned is Graham Nash.

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 04:16 PM

"My mum used to hate the song."
Pity - it's a good song and has been for a long, long time.
I detest 'Liverpool Barrow Boy' which I think is not a particularly good song - and I was born and brought up there.
Did you know that Fredrick Engles based much of his 'Conditions of the Working Class in England' on his study of Salford?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 05:12 PM

one of the nice things about folk clubs is that quite likeable people can sings you don't much care for. And this can make you listen to songs that maybe you wouldn't listen to, and you get to see the strengths of a song that initially you didn't appreciate.

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Jim I
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 09:47 PM

Referring to janemick's post of 9th March.

The Irish group I used to be in played at the Roscoff St Patrick's Festival for a couple of years and I remember the crowd in one of the bars always wanted us to sing Dirty Old Town.

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 02:34 AM

Perhaps it's a reference to Buffalo, New York?

Or would that be "Filthy Old Town?"?

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 03:02 AM

RT makes reference to Dirty Old Town in his intro to 'Salford Sunday'.

Salford Sunday

Tone

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 04:47 AM

"Here in Brittany they are convinced it is a sea-song and nothing we can say will dissuade people from this belief," janemick wrote on 9 March. I queried this at the time; and can still not see what they could possibly mean by this. Can anyone cast any light on such an odd-sounding interpretation?

~M~

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 05:18 AM

I agree with you Jim.
As I said my mum hated the song.
However the song makes me feel quite nostalgic about it and it has been in my repertoire for a long time.

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 05:25 AM

Me too - didn't stop some of my mates in Liverpool years ago joining in my chorus with "Dirty old man, dirty old man"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 06:20 AM

Famous singers from Salford? As well as Graham Nash, what about Arthur Wakefield!

In fact, Mr Nash and Mr Wakefield have something in common. Besides both being singers, of sorts, they shared a desk at primary school.

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 02:16 PM

That led me to an interesting discovery, Ray. Graham Nash, although hailing from Salford, was actually born in Blackpool where his mother was evacuated to in 1942. Amazing what you learn:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 06:27 AM

Salford is on the Salford and Manchester Junction Canal: gues that makes it nautical then? (See jane muck on 9th March)
I have been on narrow boat trips on the Union Canal in Scotland, where we sang.....sea and fishing songs, shanties, nautical disaster songs, etc, despite there only being 3 FT of water under us! Don't think we did Dirty Old Town, though!

Subject: RE: Help: Dirty Old Town? Meaning???
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 06:29 AM

Ooooo, sorry janemick, bl""dy predictive text on iPad!