BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 04:18 PM

Please don't misunderstand where I'm arguing from here, Ireland. I heartily wish that there weren't any breaches of the ceasefire, and deplore punishment beatings and all that crap. I also think that gathering the kind of information that would be useful for terrorist actions but would not be useful for political purposes of one sort or another is a serious mistake. And I think that using violent methods is totally counterproductive and has been disastrous. As the saying goes "It's worse than a crime, it's a mistake."

However I am also suspicious that more is going here than we are being told about, and that the picture which is being presented may be defective in various ways.

I think, for example, that the raids may well have intentionally been carried out in the way which the Chief Constable has said he regrets, with the object of causing maximum damage. And in the light of the apology the implication of that would be that this was not the intention of the Chief Constable, and there are elements within the police force which are acting on their own agenda, with the intention of sabotaging the Good Friday Agreement.

And there may well be elements within the IRA which have a similar goal.

I wouldn't trust anyone further than I could throw them, on either side. But the fact that you can't trust people doesn't mean you don't have to work together.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Ireland
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 03:47 PM

What more do we want MC G of H, a Chief Constable willing to say we got it wrong, now lets hear SF say they got it wrong, and assure the prison officers they are under no threat.

Consider the worries of the prison officers for the safety of their family and themselves, this proves that the information obtained would be of use to terrorists.

Here's how this information would be used, one of the IRA prisoners would walk up to a prison officer and tell him his address, telephone number and ask how his children are, (usually by name),that is terrorism at it's best. Making people live in fear for their family and self security.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Ireland
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 03:27 PM

Ard. I did not say that you get shot,I live here also, I went to many areas were punishment shootings were carried out.I have seen people who have spoke out left with permanent limps. I take no sides what so ever, in-fact I want an United Ireland but not at any cost. I think it is stupid being involved in a country and being unable to have any real say about our future.

SF has let us down badly, sooner or later people would have seen that they are not the two headed monsters most think they are and realised they do have something to offer.

Now as an ex-soldier I have to ask if the security of people like me,is taken into consideration from the view point of SF. This fiasco does not fill me with confidence that we have people willing to go forward for mutual benefit.

The majority of the names on the documents were of prison officers, if you knew the amount of midnight flits I took part in, after lives were threatened you'd understand why people are worried and feel let down by SF.

Not one person has condemned this from that perspective, that says to me that the worries of security force members are not worth thinking about. SF needs to make their peace in that respect and offer the real peace they talk about to all.

You will never get me to argue against the condemnation of any violence linked to terrorists, it's wrong unproductive and keeps us apart, so they are doing us no favours.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 02:03 PM

Here's an interesting development, no doubt with some coded significance:

Northern Ireland's chief constable apologised for the manner in which Sinn Fein's Stormont office was raided last Friday.

Speaking to reporters on Monday, he said the searches of Sinn Fein's office and at addresses in north and west Belfast were "essential," but he admitted there had been "errors of judgement" in how the Stormont search had been conducted.

"I've looked at the film, and I think we could have done the raid itself in a more sensitive and appropriate style," he said. "But I would make the point that the need to search that office was clear in my mind as an investigator.

"That had to be done. That is not the issue for me. It is the style in which we did it and I think we could have done it better." (From the BBC website.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 01:24 PM

What a load of rubbish, say the wrong word and you are shot!.
I live here and believe me I have said plenty and haven`t been warned yet.
The Loyalists have been the greatest transgressors from the cease fire, the IRA have remained true to the cease-fire, unlike the murderers of Sunday World Journalist Martin O`Hagan, [even the dogs in the street know who murdered Martin], Soliciter Rosemary Nelson and many other innocent Catholics murdered by the Loyalists, no arrests for any of these killings and it is highly unlikely there will ever be.Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 12:00 PM

Ah..the poor old IRA..is somebody piking on those nice people ?

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Big Tim
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 10:54 AM

On a visit to the old home in Donegal about ten years ago my mother told me "watch what you say to wee Tony [a neighbour], he's an IRA man. He could have you shot". So Tony and I just talked mostly about our common football team Celtic. The possibility of being shot for saying the "wrong" thing is "terror". After decades of private sympathy for "my people's freedom fighters" I finally realised that I had to face the fact that a terorist is a terorist, is a terrorist.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Ireland
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 09:33 AM

Ard Mhacha it should be, you cannot not be bit a little bit wrong your either wrong or right,you admit the IRA carry out punishment shootings, who elected the IRA as the judge jury and executioner? No one and that applies to the loyalist crowd too.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Ireland
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 09:29 AM

Ard Mhacha, you cannot not bit a little bit wrong your either wrong or right,you admit the IRA carry out punishment shootings, who elected the IRA as the judge jury and executioner? No one and that applies to the loyalist crowd too.

It is people who sit back and get involved in whataboutery that allows the situation to keep going. Try condemning both sides,for the terrorists they are.

How many people have been compensated by any terrorist organisation that punished an innocent person, none. Terrorists do not need to answer to anyone other than themselves, certainly not the community they claim they are protecting.

How pathetic is it to let people of the terrorist ilk to hold communities to ransom, people toe the line because they fear these thugs,they live in fear of saying the wrong thing voting for the wrong man and for not showing enough loyalty to which ever side. The fact is when people who are called onto the streets they have to go for fear of being singled out for not supporting their community.

We do not need these people in any shape or form is that clear enough Ard I have no time for terrorists nor their supporters or apologists they are responsible for keeping these thugs going. So instead of whataboutery how about some condemnation on all terrorist get them off our backs we do deserve better.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 04:13 AM

The Loyalists drug thugs have been shooting and killing on a grand scale over the past few weeks and has anyone heard the Unionist politicians condemn them in the same manner as an IRA punishment shooting?, no way.
And whataboutery is a bloody good cover up Ireland, in no way have the IRA from their cease-fire come close to the Loyalists drug gangs and their cut-throat thugs. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Ireland
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 11:39 PM

Fionn I'm sorry you get that impression but I thought I made it perfectly clear I have no time for any terrorist. They are parasite's who feed on the ignorance and fear of others. We do not need them in any shape colour or form.

To bring up the whataboutery argument is an attempt to justify certain action, they done that so we done this,and then distract attention away from the issue's.

If the discussion was not specifically about the SF/IRA raid I would have mentioned the actions of the loyalist/unionist side, but as it is not I see no need to.

Mc G of H, this is the link to the site I got the info from, I do not hold much store in such sites, http://www.upmj.co.uk/penta.htm, notice the Pentagone graffiti and the plo/IRA mural.

What the statement is saying, is simply it was America's foreign policy that brought 911 about, so it is their own fault, it also goes on to say keep it up and more will happen.

As for the cease fire the IRA have broken it many times, punishment shootings prove that. You seem to give credence to some one who belongs to an illegal terrorist organisation based on if the Brits can do it so can SF/IRA. I have never once seen or heard a senior IRA member stand up in public and be as accountable to the country the same way security force members have to.

Then if you are a terrorist you only have to be accountable to yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 11:20 PM

McGrath, I must say I find one element of your argument more bothersome than bothersomely correct.

With SF now not merely in parliament but also in government, it is ridiculous to equate the British Army with the IRA or any other paramilitary faction, as you seem to do.

Whatever its past excesses, some of which I have seen, and most of which were no more or less than might have been expected from deploying soldiers in civilian communities, the British Army is accountable to an elected parliament and the IRA is not. I don't rule out that elements of the British Army might indulge in criminal behaviour, but in that event I would hope to see justice prevail, just as I am hopeful that it will belatedly prevail in relation to Bloody Sunday. Against that, there is absolutely no military action available to the IRA that is not criminal. If the IRA is maintaining itself in readiness for such criminal behaviour then that too, in my book, is criminal. To justify it by saying that the government and its security agencies are doing the same is just risible.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: The Pooka
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 08:17 PM

"... stick to what people actually say rather than surmise what you think they might say but haven't said...if you are trying to counter their arguments, wait till they have said something that you actually want to challenge."

Well, Sir Kevin (I just knighted you - Order of the Bothersomely Correct), as usual your iron intellectual discipline beats me. Yer right. / I also *do* challenge *some* of "their" express indictments against my country; but I'll leave that for another day, another thread. Perhaps.

I *hope* that the emergent facts will show that SF/IRA is not turning back to Physical Force as doctrine and policy. As you say, we shall see.

"...any 'army', legal or not, is likely to have contingency plans for all kinds of things they have no intention of doing." Indeed. I'm sure ours over here (legal or not) does. You don't wanna know. Neither, I think, do I.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 07:49 PM

I think it's a good principle to refuse to negotiate slippery slopes, Pooka, and stick to what people actually say rather than surmise what you think they might say but haven't said. Wait till they say it.

If you are trying to anticipate people's actions, fair enough, you guess at what might lies behind their words - but if you are trying to counter their arguments, wait till they have said something that you actually want to challenge.

It appears to me that the IRA have genuinely turned away from the idea of attempting to gain their goals by "military" means. Nothing I have seen in the context of this latest affair appears to indicate that to be wrong - though of course the amount of actual information that is in the public arena at this point is relatively small.

But any "army", legal or not, is likely to have contingency plans for all kinds of things they have no intention of doing. I've never believed in the validity of the saying "If you want peace, prepare for war" - but that is the conventional view, and I would think it highly likely that the IRA might well accept it, in common with all the other armed organisations in Northern Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: The Pooka
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 07:24 PM

Ireland, I agree that the shooting of anybody by anybody is a step in the wrong ditection, namely, backward.

McG of Harlow, no I don't read An Poblacht's 'the deaths of thousands' as re Sept. 11 either. It refers to consequences of US actions & policies abroad. As to Sept. 11, Gerry Adams *claimed*, and *sounded* sincere to (gullible?) me, that he was personally very shaken by it, having visited the WTC not long before on one of his US tours (fundraising for "relief" y'know), and especially in light of the slaughter of hundreds of Irish-American firefighters of the historically-Green FDNY. / I dunno.

But I DO know, re terrorism, that it ain't so simple as: "...editorials and letters, saying essentially the same as that quote from An Phoblact, in mainstream publications...clearly have no sympathy at all for terrorism. They aren't seeking to excuse it..." No, this is a somewhat trickier question than that. The rhetorical model of "Of course I don't *condone* these actions, but I do UNDERSTAND them; we must realize there are are ROOT CAUSES here...", is often, I trust, straightforwardly & sincerely meant; but not always, I suggest. It *can* be a slippery slope, from the high moral ground of recognizing faults and mistakes in national policies, to blaming the collective victim halfway down the hill, to justifying the terror assault by the time one hits bottom.

I support a united Ireland. I know there are various root causes of the Troubles in the North. But when it comes to terrorist murder, by the Continuity IRA or the Red Hand Defenders or any others of the whole bloody lot: I do not condone it and I DO *NOT* UNDERSTAND IT. And anyone can explain it to me till the cows come home: I still WILL NOT "understand" it.

Fionn: good & cogent points. We also may differ on the Mideast issues; but as they say, reasonable people can disagree---and so can you & I! :)

I'm soft on the unionists too. The peaceful ones. They are There; it is their land too; THEY aren't responsible for the Plantation of Ulster by their ancestors, albeit they've benefitted; they are still the majority in the six counties (which, again, THEY did not gerrymander into existence, albeit they naturally like it that way); and---they are now losing power and status. That is a serious blow to any people anywhere. They need to be accomodated. Of course they also need to be accomodate-able, to cobble an awkward nonword. *I*'d like to hope they can be treated as *adults*. But, you (& member Ireland) know better than me, far away.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 06:36 PM

McGrath, I hadn't seen your last post. If the IRA is indeed keeping itself in a state of readiness for a breakdown in the ceasefire, then i think the unionist side is fully entitled to view that as a breach of good faith. Sinn Feinn have become an integral element in a democracy on the basis that they have put violence behind them. To give that commitment while keeping a private army in the wings, primed for action, is exactly what the Good Friday agreement is NOT all about.

We can obviously quibble about the strengths and weaknesses in the present democracy. But as it IS a democracy, the way to do that is by political debate and winning the argument. Anyone who declines to take part in such debate at gunpoint has my sympathy.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 06:25 PM

Ireland, you will gather that I am with you spart of the way. (Though not on your comments about the middle east, in which respect I must confess that I am myself slightly "soft" on so-called terrorism.)

What I can't accept is your bland implication that the unionists/loyalists have contributed nothing to the present crisis, when it is loyalist thugs, often up to their armpits in drug-dealing and other crime, who have carried out most of the atrocities in recent months. (They have been teetering on the verge of a wholesale cull among themselves. Let's hope the SF raids etc don't distract them.) Moreover the wider protestant/unionist community is, in my view, collectively wrong to have set its heart against the Good Friday Agreement.

My reason for arguing against pushing them too hard, too fast, is solely pragmatic. They are an increasingly desperate bunch, acutely aware of their minority status in the island of Ireland, imbued with a seige mentality and fearful that they have done more than enough over the years to stoke up a great deal of animosity against themselves.

Several times they have behaved with such crass indifference to world opinion that the only explanation must be that they believe they have nothing left to lose. It is crucial to long-term stability that they are persuaded to see a future worth buying into.

So I suppose I am "soft" on loyalists too, to the extent that I think they should be treated like children.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 06:02 PM

I've read editorials and letters, saying essentially the same as that quote from An Phoblact,in mainstream publications which clearly have no sympathy at all for terrorism. They aren't seeking to excuse it, but to warn about the danger of ill-directed retaliation, and identify some contributory factors.

Incidentally, when the quote refers to "the deaths of many thousands of innocent people", and suggests that the US government carries responsibility for them, it doesn't read to me as a reference to September 11th at all.

As for why the man had accumulated all that stuff, that's the kind of thing intelligence people do, they gather everything and anything in case it might be useful for any conceivable reason, no doubt including the contingency that the ceasefire might break down. And no doubt it's the kind of stuff the British Army have for the very same reason - and when gathering it I doubt if anyone worries too much if the law is breached in the process. But it's not the same thing as a breach of the ceasefire.

If it turned out that the IRA had been using information gathered in this way in order to carry out targetted assassinations, that would be the kind of thing that would constitute a breach of the ceasefire. But so far as I know that has not been alleged.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Ireland
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 05:50 PM

Step in the right direction is an argument that wears out really thin Pooka,especially when there are more steps in the wrong direction. The recent shooting of a bus driver by the IRA is not in the right direction.

These people had the opportunity to make a real difference,they abused it. They let down those who voted for the GFA, they gave credence to those who objected to their private army, and have given the unionists the perfect excuse to call and end to it all.

We cannot blame anyone other than SF/IRA, they cannot blame anyone else for what looks like the ending of the GFA. The guy arrested had sack loads of information he did not bother to conceal the documents, they were in the wrong simple.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: The Pooka
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 05:41 PM

Woops / Kevin I thought you meant a *US* political party. (Of course, there isn't one that *matters* that excuses 9/11.) Sinn Fein, yeah Ireland, I know they are ideologically aligned against "US Imperialism" and in favor of the Downtrodden Masses (no, not in Church) & thus "soft" on Mideast terror groups. Plus, they've doubtless exchanged some valuable pointers, and materiel, with 'em. Plus, I gather (correct me if wrong here) they're not real huge friends of the Jews, who I guess aren't Downtrodden enough any more. *PLUS*, as you suggest, SF/IRA have a wee inconsistency problem if they condemn terrorism outright & unqualified.

There's an irony here too: because many of SF/IRA's naive (romantic, Celtic-misty-eyed, whatever) financial contributors over here in the Irish-American community, are also big kick-ass USA! USA! patriots whose gut instinct, if not policy, is to nuke all the damn Arabs and be done with it.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: The Pooka
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 05:24 PM

Whoa. Guess *so*.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: The Pooka
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 05:23 PM

McG (Grath, not Guinness) is still with us; good; we're a Trio by God. Let's make a CD. :) "Irish Songs of Rebellious Moderation".

Yes, Kevin, there *are* some parties here that excuse 9/11, as being Our Own Fault. Small groups on the extreme left & right. Interestingly, our white-racist fascist far right (no I do not mean the President) makes common cause with the Arab Jihad Islamicists --- good blonde Aryans all, I'm just sure --- because of their shared hatred of the Jews. / And even Patrick J. Buchanan, that renowned lefist progressive Republican, recently said on TV that "The terrorists are over here because we are over there." Of course he went on to add that he wasn't condoning the attacks. Good, Pat.

But this isn't Thread Creep, it's Thread Runaway. Sorry. Back to Ireland. (Ireland?? Still there?)

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Ireland
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 05:15 PM

Printed in An Phoblact

"We know only too well how in the Middle East and in Central America the pursuit of a militaristic and aggressive policy by US governments and by those governments it sponsored, led to the deaths of many thousands of innocent people. It will compound the tragedy of 11 September 2001 if that is repeated

The perpetrators of the atrocities in Washington and New York may well have their origins in the political disaster area which is the Middle East. But it is a disaster area for which the `West' and its client governments bear much responsibility. Lashing out in that direction at targets vaguely defined under the label `international terrorism' will fulfil only the desire for revenge and ultimately inflame the region yet further".

You cannot condemn a terrorist act if your one yourself, bit like pot calling kettle black. But as a terrorist you can condemn those who fight against it.

What use is the names and details of politicans and security workers to the IRA? It is against the law to gather such information, lets not miss the point the IRA were not gathering this for benign reasons. The person arrested had sack loads of documents in his house material that was useful to terrorists. In no way can that be defended.

Trying to look at this in any other light is fooling yourself, tell me whu he needed that information for? If you can give me a good reason I'll be more than happy.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: The Pooka
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 05:10 PM

Ireland (continuing this trialogue, assuming McGrath hasn't given up on us yet) - agreed on all points in your last.

But, re SF: Adams & McGuinness *did* finally persuade (command??) the Provies to at least begin decommissioning their armaments. Now, No that's not disbandment of the IRA as an organization; and No even the disarmament itself is far from complete, I'm sure. Right. But, it's a step in the right direction; and it was *a very difficult one for them to take*, given the physical-force ideology & mythology, the inevitable spinoff of splinter-groups (RIRA, Continuity, etc.), and all that. I've read (you tell me whether accurately) that Adams & McGuinness themselves may be "marked men" as a result: quislings, you know. (Exactly consistent with the IRA's long & bloody record of serial splits & internecine assassinations, in which Adams & McGuinness of course are complicit.)

My point is that if some decommissioning, long rejected as unthinkable ("Not one bullet") --- and, come to think of it, also the unprecedented & unqualified public apology for the killing of "non-combatants" --- can occur, then who is to say that eventual disbandment will not?

*I know these are small steps* (and that a "We're so sorry" statement can be infuriating given the history, and brings back not one slaughtered child, woman or man. / But, are these not at least glimmers of hope? If at least *some* of the "hard men", on all the damned sides, can see the need to change---might not they all, eventually? Or, enough of them to make peace possible?

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 04:59 PM

But doing something illegal isn't quite the same thing as terrorism, otherwise most of us would be classed as terrorists before we were through this life.

That's not meant as a glib comment. The point is, if they excluded all the people with lawbreaking pasts and terrorist connections or involvement from political life in Northern Ireland they'd be excluding the very people who have to be included if there's going to be a chance of getting anywhere at all. The corollary of this is that they have to be doing their best to try to keep the ceasefire holding.   

And is there a political party that seeks to "excuse" what happened on September 11th?

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Ireland
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 04:21 PM

How do we send a message to terrorists that they are not wanted, when we have distinctions on their activities, that act is not as bad as the other. Fact is terrorism is terrorism, and no matter what the information gathered is useful for it was gotten under illegal circumstance's.

We need to establish stability in N.I. and accepting one action as not as bad as the other sends the wrong message. I condemn the whole lot, all N.I. terrorists, and believe a law breaker is exactly that a law breaker no grey areas.

SF has to drop it's private army and make some hard decisions that will invite more acceptance from the "unionist" side and any political party that excuses 911 should really consider if they want to be part of the democratic process.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: The Pooka
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 03:50 PM

"Jumping to conclusions in advance of having the facts is too easy, and too prevalent." McGRATH, WOULD YEZ LAVE OFF BEIN' SO BLOODY SENSIBLE?? How're we supposed to have lively discussions around here if we have to stick to the facts? Harrumph. :)

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 03:44 PM

I don't think there's always a clear distinction between the kinds of information that is useful for political activity and the kind of information that is useful for terrorist activity. Even stuff like phone numbers, and home addresses and timetables of politicians whereabouts, for example.

It's by no means clear from anything I've seen in the media what actually has been going on, and what significance it might have. Jumping to conclusions in advance of having the facts is too easy, and too prevalent.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Ireland
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 02:32 PM

The hope of all those who signed the referendum for the GFA are dashed, the majority of people put their faith in the agreement when events occur that represent no change or abuse then people are entitled to want an end to it.

I for one am dissapointed in SF as I thought they had the chance to put their money were their mouth is and do some real work.

We can all put forward examples of loyalist/unionist actions to bring about an end to the GFA, but thats neither here nor there in respect to what SF has done. They knew going into the GFA and government they would be watched and judged on every move, rather that act like statemen/women, they let us all down. And as Fionn says it is information useful to terrorist activity.

Lets explore that side of the problem without the usual what the prods do, as it takes the attention from what really is going on. If that info led to a terrorist attack, SF would say the usual we don't agree with violence but not condemn the people who carried out the attack as done in the past. Look at the shooting of the bus driver by the IRA.

If that is the type of representatives that people hold up as an example, we really are going nowhere with the GFA. It's better knowing now and saying catch yourself on before we go too far.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: The Pooka
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 01:46 PM

Speaking of irony, odd that maybe the republicans' best outcome for now, and not a bad one at that per Fionn, is return to direct rule from Westminster. Hm. O God Bless England is our Prayer.

Well, the unionists were split down the middle in the GFA referendum; and I suppose they perceive---correctly---that they are gradually losing power under the Agreement. Political shift predictable, I guess. But yeah Fionn, I sure wish there were more David Ervines, from your description of him.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: The Pooka
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 01:37 PM

Fionn - boy that's bleak, as regards the unionists anyway. Didn't know it had deteriorated that badly. But thanks for the first-person eyewitness report.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 01:33 PM

I wasn't thinking so much in terms of a formal end of the ceasefire with the IRA and the UDA and all going back on a "war footing" overnight as a "rational" policy with some "rational objective".

What I meant is this is a fragile situation with a lot of possibilities of disintegrating very fast into some kind of nightmare, with nobody gaining anything or even thinking they are likely to gain anything. There are a lot of people out there with mental capacity to carry out atrocities and counter-atrocities, and the whole thing could disintegrate horribly rapidly - and that's where the analogy with Israel/Palestine comes in.

(And I'm glad to see you've registered and lost that GUEST prefix, Ireland. At least now if we're disagreeing, I'll know it's you and not someone else trying to stir things up.)

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: The Pooka
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 01:32 PM

ard mhacha, McGrath *always* talks sense. It's so frustrating. :) Me oul da', God rest him, always called himself a "pollyanna" -- eternal optimist -- and I guess the mantle descends. Granted that I'm not Over There, experiencing discrimination, hatred, and physical danger. But I'm reluctant to accept that compromise is *impossible*. Seems some has already occurred---the GF Agreement itself, the Council of NI itself; granted, again, that its collapse seems always imminent. Is it not the case that there are Loyalists, and then there are Loyalists? Just as there are Republicans, and then again there are other Republicans? I pray so.

Ireland, far be it from me ever to wish for anyone's personal demise (well yes, perhaps I make *certain* exceptions, Saddam); but just in terms of nature taking its course, isn't Rev. Paisley getting a bit long in the tooth, as they say? What is he, 80? Surely he has nothing to fear from the Judgement of his Maker, Whom he *knows* is a fellow Orangeman after all...On the other hand, if he *should* somehow wind up in the Other Place, he could busy himself spraypainting "No Pope Here" upon the smoldering walls...the (norn)irony wouldn't occur to him...:)

OKOK, I'll agree with you about the spying. Political spying, while surely common everywhere, is at the least a Dirty Trick even when there *aren't* armed militiae lurking in the alleyways to put a fearsome edge on it. Here in Far Americay we had our fill of it with ol' DurtyTrickyDick Nixon and his stupidarsed "Plumbers"; but of course it goes on still. ("Moles" in the other party's camp, etc.)With the paramilitaries---plural---around, I do indeed take your point.

As to vote-poaching: also pandemic; & also unacceptable of course. But I doubt that SF's electoral gains have been significantly enhanced via robbery. (Unlike SF/IRA's *finances*, which, I gather, have.)

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 01:05 PM

McGrath, where did you get your information that the raid was about political snooping, or did you make it up? I thought it was about gathering information useful for terrorist activity, but we will have to see what, if any, court convictions result.

If it turns out that SF/IRA have been caught out in some criminal activity then they have been stupid beyond words. (As, alas, they have been many times.)

I came back from my last visit to Belfast just before the raid, pretty much convinced that the Belfast/GF Agreement was doomed. It was impossible to find a protestant who was not wholeheartedly opposed to it. It will be ironic if SF have handed the unionists a perfect excuse for walking away, which is what they were almost certainly going to do anyway.

In some parts of Belfast, particularly Short Strand and areas of north Belfast (the trouble goes as far out as Serpentine Road and the "white city" now) it's been a turbulent and unpleasant summer. There is no doubt that the IRA have been active, but equally no doubt that by far the greater amount of crime, including murder, has been from the loyalist side (though you would never think it, to hear the unionist politicians whining).

The GF agreement has only staggered on this far by dint of ridiculous devices, London and Dublin being desperate not to lose it. But it was supposed to have majority support in each of the two (nationalist and loyalist) communities. Now that it has no unionist support whatsoever, it should be laid to rest and government from Westminster restored. This would not reduce Dublin's role and voice. In fact in many ways Dublin would probably find Westminster easier to deal with than Stormont.

I see no prospect of the scenario that McGrath envisages of a return to the bad old days. The IRA has nothing like the active community support it once had, and which it would need to mount a major campaign, with so many catholic grievances now redressed, and visible progress being made towards fairer policing.

If trouble comes, it will come from the loyalists, but my guess is that here again, too many people are feeling comfortable and would have too much to lose from allowing a major campaign to get off the ground.

For my money the guy who continues to talk most sense is the one-time UVF hard-man David Ervine, who puts many long-term seasoned politicians on both sides to shame. If more people at the extremes had been willing to move their positions as far as he has, the whole imbroglio would have been sorted out by now.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: ard mhacha
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 12:39 PM

McGrath you are talking sense, but, just try and compromise with the Loyalists, that is impossible, everything has been tried but to no avail.
Paisley and his goons won`t be content until the IRA return, and then he will be able to rant and roar about Democracy, we are back to square one. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Ireland
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 11:42 AM

pooka, paisley has done nothing for N.I. except offer despair and a source of reasons why the two communities hate each other.

On the face of it SF is playing the democratic game,I for one thought that we were making progress when the power sharing started, over 30 years too late if you ask me.

But in behind scenes the spying and undermining of security is not in the remit of those who say they want to represent all the communities. I was genuinely saddened when the raids came about as it tells me that, I as a person who will accept a democratically voted for united Ireland will not have representatives in government that will instill in me any form of confidence.

It's naive to believe such spying was going on without SF knowledge, I'm not saying this from an anti SF perspective, given the nature of the organisation it sends shivers throughout N.I. and people have to ask are we being fooled.

As for the increase in elections, SF has no problem with poaching the odd vote or two, which has been admitted to in the past, some of their elections in the Republic has also been questioned.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: The Pooka
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 02:23 PM

Hm. Perhaps the police (what is the RUC's new name now?? I don't mean the Pope's Special Forces, as Paisley seems to fear it will become) should surround Adams in his compound & confine him to 2 rooms?

Look, Guest Eire, you continue to make valid points. But SF HAS competed democratically, and with considerable success, as a political party in NI *and* now in the Republic. Increased from one TD to 5 (just missed 6) down South last election. / As, yes, have also Rev. Paisley's rejectionist Unionists done well politically in the North. Democracy, albeit imperfectly as McGrath says, is occurring. Indeed, SDLP is hard-pressed, electorally, by SF; as is Trimble by Paisley. Moderation, hard to come by I guess, is needed.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 01:36 PM

Why live under that threat,it's madness. We will never go to the extremes of Palestine and Israel, have you forgotten about the SDLP, it's pure scare mongering to put such an argument forward.

Where are the IRA going to get the weapons to launch such attacks, if they already have them, then they are not keeping to the GFA, in that case the GFA is not working and it is their doing. They cannot ride two horses at once, to paraphrase Adams.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 01:10 PM

What I'd say is better to live through this period with all its imperfections than go back to the past, and to something worse than the past, as happened in Palestine and Israel, and as could happen in Northern Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 12:56 PM

Palestine having a hard time, could that be due to ex PLO terrorist Arafat not dissociating himself from the terrorists that strap bombs to themselves. He has taken a long long time to condemn the actions of such people in his native language.

This parallels with SF/IRA,the IRA aligned themselves with the PLO,SF do not ask for people to report terrorist knowledge and still continue their intelligence gathering. Like Arafat they are responsible for the majority of the trouble they are in, so your point is correct SF do need to look to Palestine and Israel and see were Arafat is going wrong.

In Israeli and Palestine terms it is the ex terrorist turned politician that is threatening and destroying the peace in that region. Like Adams he cannot condemn the actions of those who followed his example,neither will put forward information that will lead to the capture of terrorists who are a threat to democracy, they do not defend the principle of the system they want to be part of.

One of the people arrested was an ex terrorist, it is obvious he did not abandon his ways,he was given a position in the N.I. Office only to abuse it. Can you explain to me as an ex soldier how I am going to have confidence in SF as part of government when they do not protect mine and others interest? SF is failing the democratic process by allowing such actions, they knew the nature of this man, and did nothing to prevent his appointment to the N.I office position he held. They knew he was compromised instead of doing the right things which build confidence they turned a blind eye, now this happen and they whine about it.

To use the spectre of going back to the actions of the past is plain scare mongering, after 911, terrorism has no place in this world and SF know that. As is they know that the carrot of cessation of military activity cannot be used now to get them into government.They have to follow the democratic process and that does not involve private armies that used the armalite,bomb and ballot box to get them into power.

The killings may be well down but the terrorist activities from both sides are not the intel gathering proves that. What you are saying is it is better to live under these conditions than to say we made a mistake, tell that to people living on the interfaces.

Why gather intel for a terrorist organisation?

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 12:06 PM

When you're building a house of cards you have to be careful pulling out the ones that a bit ragged and damaged, because the whole thing might fall down. There's a point at which you can add on enough extra cards to make it pretty stable, but it takes time and demands caution.

The numbers of people killed or injured is way down, and that's a solid fact. And for a hint of what a breakdown in the peace process could mean, have a look at what's happening in Israel and Palestine.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: The Pooka
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 09:55 AM

Thank you Guest Ireland. I see what you mean. / It's easy to be optimistic, or complacent, (and/or flippant) from over here on the faraway other side of the Pond. Not so easy in the mean streets of the interface areas, I'm sure.
--TP

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 09:46 AM

No real progress yes and no, TP, the violence goes on, base ball bats,hammers and the good old boot is some of the weapons being used by both sides.

Such beatings are not as news worthy or attention grabbing as bombs and shooting, so it goes relatively unnoticed. So to the people who live through this has anything really changed no.

On the other hand no more long traffic lines waiting to get through vehicle check points,no general inconvenience due to bomb scares, but still the odd retaliation murder and punishment beating goes on and to its victims nothing has changed.

For the I'm all right crowd every things changed, until it makes a difference on their life, and the representatives who are in government refuse to recommend that people come forward with information to put away the people who represent no change in N.I. So is there any change at all for the victims.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: The Pooka
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 09:26 AM

Guest - yes, the rules of democracy must be made to apply; and isn't that what the Agreement is about and is painfully *working towards*? And you're correct, essentially, about SF/IRA. But there are *several* private armies, on both---or on *several*---sides, backing the politicians from whose ranks they have, supposedly, graduated. They must all be permanently decommissioned. Progress toward that has occurred, has it not? More needed. Doesn't happen instantaneously. (More's the pity.)

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: The Pooka
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 09:20 AM

Well *I* give a shit(e) what you think, Coyot(e) Br(e)ath. Ah feel yore pain. :) You make a valid (if partial) point. Stay with us. Please do not forever repair to the High Mountings of th' oul' Wyomings; for beware:
   And when they bore his body down those rugged heather braes,
   They placed the Broad Black Brimmer on his breast.

[Pook sneaks a bit o' music in wi' th' BS] We need you alive & posting, from the Flatlands, CB. :)

Giok: 'it's no good only obeying the laws you like'; right on; but enough about the U.S. Republicans & Democrats. / And while I like your frustration-relieving fantasy, the Six Counties cannot just be the gift the giftie gie us, until the people there so vote. Which they will eventually, sez I. (By 2016, says Education Minister McGuinness, Deputy Commander Derry Brigade, Bloody Sunday, but "There is no evidence that I was armed.") I think the Republic will likewise vote to accept 'em (what are they gonna do, go back on 100 years of themselves roaring out of them about it?)--- but not without considerable trepidation, and dissent, and a sizeable minority "No" vote.)

McGrath, cogently thought & nicely stated as usual. Quit being so be so damn sagacious, wouldyez; it's annoying. :) Yeah I'll bet John Reid *is* "bloody furious". Har har har...Like to be the proverbial fly on the wall; hear some fine Brit similes & metaphors....

Greg stephens, multiple strings of convictions, yes. (Long Kesh: political campaign school?) Of course Back in the USSA, an increasing numner of our own politicoes are acquiring the Courage of their Convictions, too. / Me, I always take both sides. In case you hadn't noticed. :)

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 08:41 AM

Greg N.I. has many good politicians without a record as for those who do they use their experience to condemn the violence and terrorists ways of the past. SF however has many political innovations to offer far and above the offerings of some politicans. The point people miss is simple,you cannot have a private army to be used as a threat if you do not get your way.

If the conservative party had a military wing it would not be tolerated, why should SF have one? The rules of democracy apply to N.I. just as it does to any democratic country throughout the world.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 08:30 AM

This is were many people miss the point, SF has a private army at its back,every politician recognises that.

If SF was the ruling government in their own country such as USA you would have a valid point, as it is those who they are gathering intelligence for is a terrorist organisation, lets not loose sight of that.

If the republic of Ireland was caught gathering intelligence I say you would have a valid point,but to put SF/IRA on the same level is ludicrous. Would the SDLP have the right to gather information which can be used to destabilise the government and threaten lives, they do not get involved in that, as they follow the democratic process.

It has been said "the IRA have not gone away you know", why say that and claim your following the democratic process? But if you do not do what we want we'll bring back the boy's. Instead of accusing those who try to prevent a corrupt political party with dubious partners with dirty tricks, try asking what use such information is to SF and how it benefits it's terrorist wing.

If you cannot make the leap I'll try, the info gathered at Castlereagh is of vital importance to a terrorist group who wants to know the name add and Tel.No. of those who try to stop them making and planting their bombs. And as is human nature people will always cry foul when they are prevented from doing want they want to do.

It was such intelligence that led to the Canary Wharf, mortar attack on Downing St. need I go on? To moan about combating the intelligence gathering of a terrorist organisation is reprehensible, in the past it has saved lives and that Mc G of H your condemning with such comments.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 08:10 AM

I doubt if anybody in NI politics hasnt got a "string of convictions". I'm not taking sides.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 07:47 AM

I note from the paper that this operation was not in fact approved in advance by John Reid the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, which given its sensitivity you'd expect. (Well if the Met were to raid the House of Commons I think it'd get discussed with the Home Office. (No, he hasn't retrospectively condemned it - well he couldn't very well. I suspect he's bloody furious.) This smacks of dirty tricks.

If the British Military Intelligence isn't gathering information about everyone in Sinn Fein, and keeping up to date any information it's got about the IRA, I'd be astonished. And the British authorities in Northern Ireland have "a string of convictions" too, don't forget.

Hell, British Military Intelligence probably gathers information on everybody anyway, just in case. There's very likely files full of that kind of stuff about the USA, just in case. And I imagine that applies the other way round. Nobody trusts anybody.

The ceasefire in Northern Ireland is holding amazingly well, so far as the IRA goes anyway. Not perfect, you don't get perfection in this kind of situation. There are some people on both sides who would like to see the war start up again. This kind of operation plays into their hands, and the worry is that this may in fact have been the idea in the minds of some of those responsible.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 07:18 AM

If you buy into this BS that the situation in Belfast has to have different rules applied to it than any other democratic system then you give credence to the thugs that want to run N.I. for themselves.

No matter what side it comes from the type of snooping that goes on does not instill confidence in these people.

It is well known that SF is the political wing of the IRA, so the political snooping takes a more sinister turn to intelligence gathering, to identify the weakness of your enemy.

SF say they want to represent all the people of Ireland, why gather info that threatens peoples security. Why do they not give the names of those who carried out the Omagh bombing, they will not even encourage people to come forward with what they know.

Hardly conducive to a fair representative for all, why is it that political corruption and wrong doing in other countries is exposed we accept it as good work one less corrupt politician. This is what the raid is about pure and simple getting rid of corrupt politicians, and those who hold democracy dear moan about that.