BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh

Subject: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:26 PM

So there I was.....
    Tolkein has finally won!
          Never read the Ring because at the time I was reading the real epics! And....of course in the streets of newcastle going pub to pub...living still more....but that is another saga....

Wife did read....and daughter did read but not me....I was dragged to the movies....(a place I avoid due to the general rule of the absence of alcohol....)

The movie was good in enough parts to justify the expenditure but watching the big screen whilst sober is a bit of a waste....
Lots of bits linked to the epics....which was good because my daughter
was forced to read Niebelungen, Wallsungs etc.....last summer and she could appreciate the scenes drawn from those roots.

So there I was and the trees were saving the day etc etc....
the hordes were defeated and filled with sugar water I found the isle
and at the end of the movie followed my bladder to the mens room. On the way down the isle through the darkness, on the way to the hallway
I was surrounded by a group of Koreans all speaking in Korean.....

Definitely not a sound which should follow a movie in which hordes of evil ones took part..

I followed my bladder to the mens room....it behaved but I was not in charge....all that cokie coalie....far too much sugar water....it felt as if I was flooding the towers...

Then outside the theatre in the Movie I call life we jumpped into the magnet truck/blasCAPelle Toots. While waiting for the frost inside the window to clear....
I took up one of the plastic hoses linked to the brass instruments on the cap of the truck bed. I picked the right one....one of the forward mounted trombones......

A deap breath and .....what a blast....
a n d..... it was an instrument which was in tune with the film!

I kid you not! Out of the darkness came the horn call from the movie
and the crowd went wild!

All in a days work for the artcar driver and artist. We drove off into the next scene of our own movie!

My daughter said it was sort of like coming out of the latest harry potter movie in our car- handy covered with hands......

The music was ok but I dont think it will be memorable. It would have been nice to have a wassail like chorus from a kings hall somewhere....instead it was kind of cross between star wars and enya...

Oh well....it is for the suburbanite audiences....which is why I am told that the hobbits were too thin and lacked the laugh described in the novels.

Movies are captures of the contempo world if nothing else....

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: leprechaun
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 05:11 AM

Conrad. Your dilemma makes me sad. I would suggest a bota bag. With a little practice you can squeeze your favorite beverage into your mouth and nobody will be the wiser. Just hold it under your arm and you can squeeze it like a bagpipe. Of course you get less flavor degradation with a hip flask, but then you have to tip your head back with every drink. The bota bag is much more surrepticious. If you're really serious, you might try one of those backpack hydration units. As long as you hide the straw on your way in you should be just fine until the lights go out.

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 10:15 AM

Thanks for the tips!

Actually I think minatures would do fine...next time must think of that.

The feeling of being in a theatre with so many so filled with sugar is a terrifying thought.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 11:33 AM

I was surrounded by a group of Koreans all speaking in Korean.....
Definitely not a sound which should follow a movie in which hordes of evil ones took part..

Glad to see your sabattical from the 'cat hasn't changed you one iota- you're still an utter fuckwit.

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: Hollowfox
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 03:54 PM

If they were a bunch of Koreans speaking, say, Turkish, or Italian, now *that* would be noteworthy!
Your daughter might be interested to know that one of the cast, at least, is up on his classics. Viggo Mortensen was familiar with the Niebelungen before he took the part, although he apparently had not read LOTR.

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 07:25 PM

You're an amazing character, Conrad. I think you need another drink. I know why North Korea wants to build bombs, Conrad. They're afraid of being attacked. They have good reason to be afraid. They figure that with a few nukes in the inventory, certain parties will think twice about attacking them. That's why Pakistan built the bomb too. Fear of attack and the desire to have a deterrent. That's why everyone builds the bomb...fear of being attacked by a larger, more powerful country. (Everyone except the USA, that is...they ARE the most powerful, and their business IS attack.)

There's a whole lot of fear out there, Conrad, and drinking will not help ease it.

I agree with your critical assessment of sugary soft drinks. You can also get 6 months supply of your body's needed levels of salt in a single day by purchasing a bag or two of popcorn at the movies. It's so heavily salted in order to make you thirsty so you'll buy more sugary drinks. An excessive salt & sugar habit leads to heart problems and many other illnesses. Worry, worry, fret, spend, worry, worry, fret, consume, worry, fret....

I saw a bumper sticker today that said: "Just let me shop, and no one gets hurt" Right...the voice of deluded consumerism.

Brought to you by the SYSTEM THAT SELLS YOU INSANITY AND DOESN'T CARE.

Looking for Mordor, Conrad? Don't look to Korea, look to the commercial marketing system that is all around you, promising happiness and delivering decadence and corruption.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 08:31 PM

maybe they werent koreans
just folk speaking a version of gutteral.....

as for being attacked.....

they had no chance of being attacked until recently but I think they have just signed up for a big one!

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 11:31 PM

Just got home from seeing The Two Towers. Impressive in a way, but a big disappointment too. Huge rewrites of the basic plot, without any discernible reason.

I think I understand why they resolved the battle of Helm's Deep the way they did, because the saving by the moving forest and the huorns is difficult to imagine presenting on screen, and as a matter of fact the real action in that regard is overnight and out of sight, and thus would probably be dull and unbelievable in a movie. I give the screenwriters that.

However, I can find no conceivable plot-forwarding reason for having Faramir take Frodo and Sam to Osgiliath to be in a battle that is merely a matter of report in the book. I suppose it to be in order to give another thrilling action scene.

There is neither a book justification nor any logical nor plot-furthering reason nor even action-creating reason for having the elves reinforce Helm's Deep.

If I hadn't read the book (5 times so far) I probably would think it a wonderful movie. As it is, I give it very mixed reviews.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 12:45 AM

I agree about Osgiliath, Dave. Just an excuse to show the Nazgul riding flying dinosaurs. It actually hurts Faramir's character and makes it (is it possible) more shallow than in the books. He's basically exactly like Boromir, where the book Faramir is his opposite.

Also, there was no reason whatsoever for Aragorn to fall off that cliff!

I actually did like the Elves coming to reinforce Helm's Deep, though. There was something tragic in the fact that they were about to sail away forever, to a place without wars or death, but they decided to stop and help their old home and their old allies one last time--and many of them die in the process.

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 10:23 AM

There was a great reason for Aragorn to fall off that cliff - it made sense for the MOVIE. It gave an excuse to use Liv Tyler in the film!!

"Book justification"?? People need to stop making comparisons between the book and the film. It is one thing to not like a film because the story in the movie doesn't work. It isn't fair to hold the director up to the author of the book. The director has to tell the story HIS or HER way and it is there responsibility to create a story that will hold the audience. Without items like Aragorn's fall the film would have been a series of battle scenes without a compelling story to hold a viewers attention.   What can be accomplished in an exciting manner in a book does not necessarily make it exciting on a screen. The director and writers did a great job in telling the basic tale.

The books are wonderful and they will be cherished forever.   The film speaks on a different level. I realize it is hard to separate something that is so close to so many, but it is important to give the director and screenwriters room to tell a story.   

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: Kim C
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 12:43 PM

I have never read the books. I'm working on that, though. HOWEVER I thought the movie, as a fantasy/action tale, was spectacular and I loved it and I will probably see it again on the big screen and buy the DVD and the extended DVD and whatever else they dish up.

Mister has read the books. And he still likes the movies.

I thought Brad Dourif as Wormtongue was one very fine piece of acting, albeit a rather short one. Very creepy.

And Gollum... he is so pitiful. The old Smeagol wants to be good, but his Dr. Jekyll side is too powerful. Poor little critter.

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: Melani
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 02:57 PM

So far, despite the departures from the book, I find the movie version to be really great. I saw a TV show on the making of the movie, and it seems they almost drowned Viggo Mortenson in the falling-off-the-cliff scene. And of course they have to put more Arwen in it--after all, the audience really wants to see a little love interest, which is almost completely lacking in the books. And I personally loved the sword scene with Aragorn and Eowyn.

By the way, Conrad, what do you think a bunch of English speakers sound like to someone who doesn't speak English?

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: NicoleC
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 03:26 PM

As a fan of the books, I was a little disconcerted by some of the changes made, but I felt that they were solid choices for a MOVIE. Filming the whole book scene for scene would take about 30 hours, of which huge portions would be dull except to rabid fans.

I wasn't too fond of the falling off the cliff thing -- but I see how it was used to advance the Aragorn character into a battle leader. A shortcut compared to the book. The revised battle was also appropriate to give a victory to the heroes in #2. No one likes movies with losers.

But the Faramir thing -- I didn't get it. It really degraded the Faramir character. The scene with Frodo on the wall and the Nazgul was awesome, but I don't think it justified the big departure. Just me. But it did serve to make a convenient movie-time delaying tactic for Frodo's journey, pushing the encounter with Shelob into movie #3 where it will be given the justice it deserves. They never could have achieved that in the time it took to deal with Faramir, and it would have been awkward to ignore Frodo & co for the rest of the movie. Okay, so maybe it does make sense. I still didn't like it...

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 03:42 PM

Nicole, if you never read the book, do you think you would have cared
about the change in the Faramir character?    While the character in the book may have had more depth, I feel it wasn't necessary for the film's story.

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: Kim C
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 03:46 PM

That was Mister's one complaint - that they made the movie Faramir into a Big Fat Jerk.

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 04:00 PM

I didn't see him as a jerk.   I saw him as man who lost his brother and was trying to save his people. He saw the ring as the tool to achieve that end. I thought his gradual understanding of the significance of the ring was an important thread in the film.

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 04:09 PM

NicoleC said:

But it did serve to make a convenient movie-time delaying tactic for Frodo's journey, pushing the encounter with Shelob into movie #3 where it will be given the justice it deserves. They never could have achieved that in the time it took to deal with Faramir, and it would have been awkward to ignore Frodo & co for the rest of the movie. Okay, so maybe it does make sense. I still didn't like it...

Now that's a good thought, Nicole: Handling the length while still keeping contact with Frodo. While I don't like it either, I see an arguable movie-making reason.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: NicoleC
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 04:20 PM

To me, in the movie he comes off as yet another weak and opportunistic human. He doesn't gradually understand the ring, he just suddenly changes his mind after he sees the Nazgul. Whereas in the book, he experiences the seduction of the ring, like his brother, but has the willpower to say no, unlike his brother, and is crucial to helping Frodo along his way.

There are so many pathetic or sad human characters in the movie, that Aragorn starts seeming as though he is super-human instead of just being the descendant of kings and leaders. A heroic and strong Faramir would help balance that portrait of humankind.

In this particular case, I do think that I would have been less than happy with his character if I hadn't read the books. The whole scenario just doesn't ring true. The rest of the changes -- no, I don't think they'd be a detriment to folks who haven't read them.

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 04:26 PM

I have to disagree Nicole. I think that if Faramir was made to be another strong and heroic character, the movie would have been bogged down with heroes. Faramir became believable because he was weak and opportunistic.   Having never heard of the ring before, why would he see this as anything more than a weapon that could save his people? Why would anyone think differently? I truly believe that what he witnessed brought him to the belief that he had to let Frodo complete his mission.   Why wouldn't that be believable? I would have found it phony if he were portrayed as another strong leader, the film has too many of those already.

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: Kim C
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 05:41 PM

He came across to me as mean-spirited and conniving. Tricking Frodo into trapping Gollum didn't help his cause any. Sure, he relented, but only after Sam had to beg him for mercy. I thought he was very unkind to the hobbits who had been his brother's companions. Your mileage may vary, however. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 07:21 PM

He really didn't know much about his brother's relationship with the hobbits. He was rather suspicious since they did not even know that he died.

Of course hew as conniving, and while I wouldn't call him mean-spirited I do see your point. He had his own agenda, saving his people, and to him the ends justified the means. Sounds like a number of world leaders. While I don't think he will sell many cuddly action figure dolls, I think the characterization added a nice dimension to the film. Too many righteous heroes make for a boring story.

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 08:14 PM

Exactly!
Once possessed by the books these thoughts occur after the movie.

So spoke my wife and daughter endlessly.....still going on days later...

I simply indicated to them that I appreciated that the departures which they had identified were in part due to having to fill more time on the screen than one has to do with the written text.
For example....A battle scene in the book:
"the battle raged for three days with massive struggle and bloodshed"

Would have to be transformed on screen to something looking like a three day battle. This means more action which means importing actions not found in the book.

Generally I approved of several of the changes. I noted that the great wall breech scene was a great motif no matter what siege one talks of from troy on down.

Generally not having been taken by the books I simply let the discussion pass saying only that I did enjoy the movie. I do believe that when movie theatres sell huge large drinks....and run long movies....they should issue bedpans or urinals....or maybe just install a convenient trough in front of the seats. I could also suggest that I dont need the free refill that comes with the purchase of a large drink
but I will simply re-fill the container myself....

Now ....that you have discussed the action....
what did you think of the music?
Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 08:22 PM

I, for one, enjoyed it, C. (Music that is!) Lots of subtle twists and turns. Lots of nuances that I enjoyed. I would have liked a little more 'Ent Music' but as there is no such thing I will keep it in my mind!

Keep truking, keep posting and nil carborundum illagetemide... (sp:-)

DtF

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: GUEST,Hagbardr
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 12:16 AM

I saw the movie for the first time today, and although I disappointed in some of the plot changes, eg. Faramir taking Frodo and Sam to Osgiliath, Aragorn's near death experience, and the elves at Helm's Deep, the movie still rocked and stayed mostly true to the storyline... I loved Gollum's arguement with Smeagol and the Dead Marshes were exactly as I had imagined them.

--Hagbardr

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 12:53 AM

Ron, throwing Aragorn off the cliff, in my opinion, did not make sense for the MOVIE (which was in fact what I was talking about). His vision of Arwen is a dream that he has while lying in the gully. It could just as easily have been a dream he had while sleeping at Helm's Deep, or a daydream he had while on his horse. It's not like she was actually there at the bottom of the cliff! So his falling off the cliff does not get her into the movie. Essentially, he falls off this cliff, has a dream, rides his horse, and still gets to Helm's Deep in time for the battle. The whole incident changes nothing and advances the plot and the character not at all. Furthermore, in my opinion it is just too much like what has already happened to Gandalf to be taken seriously. Will they have Frodo fall off a cliff and miraculously survive in the next film?

I'm reminded of the original film The Shining, in which we see poor Scatman Crothers hear the boy's psychic call, go to the airport in Florida, laboriously make his way from Florida to Denver, then get on a snowcat to plow his way, inch by inch, out to this isolated hotel, and the second he opens the door Jack Nicholson kills him with an axe. Why even bother to show all that? That always bothered me, even when I hadn't read the novel. Then I did read it. In the novel, of course, the character helps the boy and his mother, and survives....which explains why those other scenes were originally written.

I'm actually a little concerned about The Two Towers ending so far in advance of where the novel ended; ie with the Shelob incident untouched and the destruction of Isengard still to be concluded. Not because it was bad for this movie; this movie was fine ending where it did. But I think there's a lot of plot to get through in the next movie, and I wonder how Jackson will do it! I guess not all of Frodo and Sam's experiences with Orcs, etc, are all that necessary, so they may find easy cuts there.

I agree, BTW, with hagbardr. The film still rocked, but the plot changes were not necessary; or, at least, some were not. Like I said, I liked the Elves being at Helm's Deep :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 06:53 AM

Well, I finally got to see the movie yesterday, and I promised my 13 year old daughter ahead of time that I would check my "critic" at the door. That saved the movie for me! I gave up on holding on to the book, and just enjoyed it for its own sake. The Aragorn/cliff scene was the only thing that seemed really unnecessary, and I would have liked to see way more ents, but the really tough part for wimpy little me was the excessive battle scenes! In a book I can "blip" over a lot of the violence, but this went on and on and on and on...
I actually only "saw" about 2/3 of the movie, since I couldn't watch all that hacking and hewing!
Having said that: Gollum was brilliant, I like Aragorn a lot more than I did in pt 1, I think Eowyn is just fine, I agree with Ron O on the Faramir issue, and I wish Elrond didn't wear a perpetual sneer.
The music? As movie music goes, it was fine, it did its job. My daughter has the soundtrack, listens a lot, but the impact works for me as movie background; it doesn't stand alone for my taste.

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 09:24 AM

I am really surprised that everyone is so hung up on the Aragorn cliff scene.   To me it gave him a human element that I thought was missing - the man is not, nor should he be, invincible.   You can't have a film where everything is so predictable, and seeing a major character come close to death creates an element of doubt in the mind of the viewer - you now have a character who could easily fail, will they succeed?

By the way, I was trying to be sarcastic when I mentioned that the scene was an excuse to use Liv Tyler. While I am glad they expanded the relationship (which Tolkien wrote about in other works), I thought her inclusion was forced in Two Towers. One of my few problems with the film.

Maybe I like irony, which is what I read into the Scatman Crothers scene in The Shining. I hate a film where I know what the end will be, so adding elements is the filmmakers way of creating an interesting film. Lets face it, Tolkien's books were wonderful as books, but that doesn't make them perfect for the screen. Elements that are briefly mentioned in a paragraph need to be embellished on film in order to make sense. Other elements are fluff, such as the Tom Bombadill character, that can easily be removed.

From the comments I'm reading, I have to feel that people are clinging to the story they loved in the book too much. The books will always be great works of art and inspiration. The film does not take away from that.   The film adds another element to the lore and it tells the tale to another audience.

Ever read Baum's "Wizard of Oz"? I thought the books were great works of fantasy for their intended readers and I really enjoyed them when I was younger,but they are completely different from the film. Would I have given Judy Garland silver slippers? No, it would not have used the element of color as well. Would I have made Dorothy's Aunt and Uncle to be more grim as they were in the book?   It wouldn't have made sense.   Would I have liked to see some of the other adventures that appeared in the book make their way to the screen? As a fan, yes, but I think it would have bogged down the movie. As it stands, both book and film are classics. Disney attempted to capture some of the elements from the books in their "sequel", and the film bombed.

There is no reason to critique a film by comparing book to the film - you end up missing out on the beauty of each.

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 01:26 PM

I do see what you mean, Ron. But I didn't take the Aragorn cliff scene as an indication that he's human and therefore mortal. Quite the opposite, I took it to show that he's superhuman and can even fall off a giant cliff, and less than 24 hours later stay up all night wearing heavy armor and killing orcs! It made him seem less human to me, in other words, just as Gandalf's surviving a giant fall indicated that he was not, in fact, human at all. As to making the movie less predictable, I did not for one second think Aragorn was going to die. Therefore, the only possible outcome was the one that we saw. Did anyone have a different reaction?

I love irony myself, and indeed laughed out loud when Scatman Crothers took the hit, but on later reflection wondered if all that screen time was necessary for the laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: NicoleC
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 01:38 PM

Hey Nerd,

I guessed that they wouldn't make it all the way through #2, but couldn't figure out where they'd cut it off. Pure speculation on my part, but I'm guessing that Pete is ditching or quickly glossing over the last 2/3 of book #3. Most of #3 is prologue, and prologue usually makes lousy movie viewing. I'm guessing the ring will be destroyed, there's a final battle, then very briefly: Aragorn takes his rightful place, Frodo does the same thing in the movie he does in the book except much sooner (obscure for those who don't know what happens), and we see Sam hook up with his future wife and consider writing a book...

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 01:49 PM

Good points Nerd. It was an improbable recovery, and you are right, we all knew he would recover. (Although I do wonder if those who did not read the books would have known that?)   However, my feeling was that seeing Aragorn even wounded gave the character an aspect where his success was uncertain.

Frankly, the scene was just another scene to me. The only reason I have been defending it was because I am surprised at the number of people that focused on that one scene. To me it was just another step in the journey but a number of people have taken real exception to it.

There were two aspects that bothered me, and I realize it is because of my personal tastes. The voice of the Gollum character reminded me too much of Dobby in Harry Potter. I know, I know - I shouldn't compare the two. In this case I had a hard time divorcing myself of that voice.

The other "problem" I had was the talking trees. The Ents looked plain silly. After being very impressed with the effects in these films, I felt that this was too much puppetry. I was expecting Big Bird to come out from behind a branch at any minute. That is why I hate the Stars Wars films - too many puppets. I don't find any realism in those pictures and I have a hard time believing the stories. Boring. I don't get the attraction for something that looks like it belongs in my kid's toy chest. What I've enjoyed about the films is the way they make me believe this could be happening when my mind tells me it is pure fantasy. When the puppet trees came on screen, I lost it.   The shots were obviously blue screened as well. If I didn't know better, I would swear that they ran out of money at this point in the production.

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 05:33 PM

Having seen numerous past failures to depict Ents believably in the visual arts, I was more than happy with how they did them in this film. Ents are not easy to simulate. I was beginning to think no one could come up with a decent Ent till I saw Two Towers.

The only thing I really missed was the forest of Huorns swallowing up the retreating Uruk-Hai. It's a shame they left it out.

Gollum was very well done.

I also feel that the Aragorn/cliff incident was unnecessary, but I liked the arrival of the Elves at Helm's Deep. I like almost any excuse for the arrival of Elves, any time, anywhere.

Even 3 full length movies are not enough to do these books justice. I think about 9 movies would do it....or 12. Too bad the BBC never took it on.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 04:22 AM

Not a word here about Orcs (to my mind the most interesting creatures with the exception of Smeagol/Gollum). Did they ALL have "eas' Lunnon" accents? Or did I miss something? The good guys (judging by the accents) from the west country, southern Ireland (Merry? am I right?) and home counties upper class (Gandalf et al.). Maybe Orcs are 'orcs (horcs?).

Jon Bartlett (from Wes' Lunnon, in Canada 34 years)

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 10:51 AM

Sorry LH, I felt they could have done a better job on the Ents.   The way the beard and eyes moved I was expecting to see the late Jim Henson pop up at any time. If you look at the top of the tree when Merry and Pippen were going for their little ride, you can see the obvious blue screen that was used.

I do realize it is impossible to make a walking and talking tree look "real", but considering the amazing CGI and effects work they did for other effects, the talking trees don't match up.

Jon, I'm glad you mentioned the Orcs. Does anyone have any idea of what determined the accents used? Perhaps it was just the actors that were available?

Speaking of Orcs, I felt they came across as far more sinister than the book. Another example of Jackson using his right to make appropriate changes to tell his story.

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 01:42 PM

Hey Greg.......Could not have said it better myself old friend! The leopard never changes his spots.

***Conrad Bladey, #1 Super Pissant & Bigoted Mofuck***

........and fuck your car too Conrad.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 04:33 PM

Now, Spaw...compassion, lad, compassion! You may have been just like Conrad in some earlier incarnation. :-) Try and see his good side.

You also need to work on having a deeper appreciation of Willam Shatner, God knows, but that has no place in this thread, so feel free to just let it pass for the moment...

WFDU - I agree that the movie Orcs are "over the top". Real Orcs (as in the book) were an actual race of beings, with their own society, their own notions of right and wrong (however twisted), and their own sense of group loyalty, common purpose, and so on. By their standards, they were "the good guys", fighting evil dwarves, elves, and men for dominion of the Earth. To depict them as rabidly mindless and totally brutish killing machines is a bit stupid, and it detracts from the realism and drama of the story. But that's Hollywood...isn't it? In Hollywood, bad guys must be ALL bad. In real life, it's never that way. Never.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 06:12 PM

Couldn't disagree with you more LH. The Orcs were wonderful in the movie. The film needed a sense of evil carrying out Saurons plan and the Orcs supplied them. To infer human emotions on them was not necessary for the movie - but I think hints were shown. They blindly followed orders but there are scenes where I could see fear in their eyes. The Uruk-kai, at least in the film, were given the appearance of being manufactured and without emotion.

I'm not sure how their depiction could be seen as a detraction to the film, unless of course you are using the book as your standard.

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 06:23 PM

I think the Orcs spoke in an East Lunnon accent in the books as well. In any case, it's been standard in all the audio versions I've heard to have the Orcs sound like that. It is a bit bigoted, though...too bad!

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 05:16 AM

On the whole I enjoyed "The Two Towers". I did feel that the plot changes were unnecessary though - I can understand cutting sessions to fit the whole story in, but adding extras seems a bit strange. No-one seems to have picked up on the the bit where Elrond is packing Arwen off to the havens. In the book he's not very happy about his daughter marrying a mortal, but seems content to put things on hold - after all, he's the result of a similiar liason.

Finally, as the plot is a bit behind, I'm wondering if the return to, and cleansing of the Shire and the deaths of Saruman/Grima will be omitted from "The Return of The King". It would obviously be tempting for Jackson to end on a high, but to me the end of the book - especially the final information on the departure of Legolas and Gimi (and probably Sam) from the havens is very important.

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: Kim C
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 01:02 PM

See, Ron, I was a little confused about Frodo & Sam not knowing Boromir was dead. That didn't really settle with me in the first movie. And then Sam told Faramir why his brother died, so it seemed like he knew. Anyway I reckon I should read that part and figger it out.

Cuddly action figures! Heehee! I have a Lord of the Rings tarot deck, and Faramir is the Hanged Man. Mister says he doesn't remember anywhere where Faramir would have been hanged upside down by his ankleses, but whatever.

Speaking of cuddlt action figures - I really dug the battle scene with the giant hyena-things. It had me squirming something awful!

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 01:32 PM

"Orcs," in LOTR (the book) were not a race of beings equivalent to Hobbits, Elves, et al, with their own civilization, culture, and society. They were constructs of Sauron; whether by mutating/hybridization or just magic isn't entirely clear. Saruman gets into the act by "creating" the larger, more aggressive (!) Uruk-hai in some similar Frankensteinian manner. The point is that Orcs didn't just happen to be some other bunch who saw things differently. They were created specifically to do the Evil One's bidding with no will of their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 05:00 PM

Buck Mulligan said (in part)

Orcs "were constructs of Sauron; whether by mutating/hybridization or just magic isn't entirely clear. Saruman gets into the act by creating the larger, more aggressive (!) Uruk-hai in some similar Frankensteinian manner. The point is that Orcs didn't just happen to be some other bunch who saw things differently. They were created specifically to do the Evil One's bidding with no will of their own."

Well, sort of close, but no cigar. Orcs were created (or developed; more on this later) in the First Age by Melkor (later called by another name), the most powerful of the Valar, who "went bad", a sort of Lucifer figure in the Tolkien pantheon. It was generally considered that, since he did not have the Secret Fire (the power of real creation, which was Eru's alone) that he had captured elves and
corrupted them into the orcs, as a mockery.

At the time that happened, Sauron was not yet Sauron, but merely a subordinate Vala (like Gandalf and Saruman) who had been corrupted by Melkor, and in the First Age had other names, (which I disremember at this moment). He was not named Sauron until the Second Age. Balrogs were also originally of this subordinate-Vala order.

Saruman bred his Uruk-Hai from the basic orc stock, but there were clearly different strains or races of orcs previous to that. Different groups of orcs were of differing physical descriptions, had separate and sometimes mutually unintelligible languages, and sometimes had to resort of the use of a corrupt version of the Westron in order to communicate with each other.

The individual orcs clearly did have individual wills, and were not mere automatons subject to Sauron's or Saruman's will, although being created with evil propensities and with great fear of punishment by Sauron. For example, the struggle over possession of Frodo and the Mithril coat, for personal gain. The Uruk-Hai even display a species of gratitude and loyalty to Saruman ("The White Hand, who gives us man-flesh to eat"), over and above fear.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 05:05 PM

That is a great description Dave. Imagine trying to get that much detail in the movie. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. I think that shows why Jackson had to be selective in what he presented onscreen and why he used his right to make creative changes.

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 07:39 PM

Nice rundown on Orc history there, Dave. I guess I am getting a little tired of movie monsters who all speak with the same guttural, vocal-chord-rupturing voice. Whoever it is who provides that voice, he must be making a fortune...

But...I wonder if he knows how to pronounce "nuclear"?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 10:24 AM

Uncle DaveO - Thanks for the corrections on the details - I'm not an exegetical scholar of the text. However, my point (which I apologize for leaving unclear) was in response to Little Hawk's comment ("Real Orcs (as in the book) were an actual race of beings, with their own society, their own notions of right and wrong (however twisted), and their own sense of group loyalty, common purpose, and so on. By their standards, they were "the good guys", fighting evil dwarves, elves, and men for dominion of the Earth. To depict them as rabidly mindless and totally brutish killing machines is a bit stupid, and it detracts from the realism and drama of the story. "

Basically, I was disagreeing. I don't think JRRT was leaning in the least toward any kind of cultural relativism re: the Orcs; they were indeed all bad, whatever the details of their genesis. I don't believe there's room to see them as "just like us only with a different cultural point of view." Of course, I'd be grateful for any substantive correction from the text.

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: TNDARLN
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 11:41 AM

I'm reading this thread for the first time today after seeing the film only yesterday. So here're my thoughts- [disclaimer: I'm not a big movie buff/critic to begin with]

I have no problem with the orcs being "all bad" - we get to see enough inner struggle between good/evil with Gollum and Frodo. BTW- if you haven't read how they "did" Gollum it's pretty interesting stuff. I did wonder why he was so "visible"- as I recall from the books many years ago- he was usually in the shadows/dark etc.

Several have mentioned the music: there was a melodic motif used a lot in this film- usually for the noble/let's-go-do-it parts that was played on either high cello/viola, etc. Every time it began, I expected/wanted to hear uillean pipes- or at least something more "primitive" sounding. Did anyone else notice this? Am I typecasting [tunecasting?] here?

I would have expected the songs from the book to have figured into the movies- not as background Enya stuff, but in at least one scene.

There was another thing I noticed: in one action scene where Gimli [on horseback] grabs Legolas to lift him up onto the horse, there was what appeared to be technical snafu - almost as if L. was jumping off the horse with the film reversed. 'Course everything happens so fast, and you can't rewind it, but that's what it looked like to me.

On the LOTR website there is some info on how the main actors developed their character's accents. I noticed the East London thing too--I was just too glad they didn't give the orcs southern [US] accents.

But noticing things didn't take away from the film, I loved it and left the theater feeling almost elven!

T

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 12:23 PM

Feeling elven is a good way to feel. Now here's a question to ponder...

Are there Orc-women? If so, are they as stunningly attractive and articulate as their menfolk or even more so? And where are they hiding all the time? The movie seems to suggest that Saruman "manufactures" the Uruk-Hai in a magically synthetic fashion (a bit unlikely, but...maybe). It would seem more likely that Orcs were generally bred in the usual fashion, by sexual means.

What say, Dave?

After all, the Klingons have women, don't they? Why shouldn't the Orcs?

And...I agree that all Orcs are evil, but do Orcs see themselves as evil, and more importantly as WRONG? I doubt it. Does the Pentagon?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: Hollowfox
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 12:39 PM

Ron Olesco, your point about clinging to the books and therefore not seeing the good pooints in the film is exactly right.
Here follows a paraphrase of some thoughts I put on another forum (that had a lot more complainers). The last time I went to a movie with any expectations was when I went to see Blade Runner. It was adapted from an excellent book and I was eager to see how they'd handle some of the ideas in it (visually feasible ones, not philosophical profundities). Instead I saw a futuristic chase-&-shoot movie taking place in a grungy dystopia that only had a passing resemblance to the premise and none at all to what it looked like in my mind's eye. It wasn't bad as a flick, but I wouldn't have enjoyed it at all if I'd insisted on it being true to the book. Funny, I've not heard film/sf buffs say anything but good about Blade Runner. Maybe I don't get out much, so if you have heard complaints, don't step on my premise, ok?
Now, being a lover of ballads, epics, opera, etc. I would have probably loved LOTR to be three nine-hour films replete with recitations, long songs in foreign languages (with subtitles, perhaps), etc. I also know that most of the moviegoing world would not love it. Book to stage, or screen, adaptations are nothing new. Lucia di Lammimore is not entirely faithful to Sir Walter Scott's novel Bride of the Lammimores. But the opera led me to Scotts writing. If these moviess lead folks to the novels that we love so much, then it is a good thing. Sure, the pictures in your head will always be better, and that's as it should be. "My" orcs are better than those in the film, and the ents are skinnier than I would like. But I was afraid they'd look like the apple trees in the Wizard of Oz. (I've gotta admit, "their" Elrond is a better one than I had, so I choose to imagine him differently. BTW, Animaterra, I don't think he's sneering so much as under a great deal of sress.) As I've said elsewhere, the attention to detail, the thought given to decisions, whether or not I agree with them, the craftsmanship in the props, go beyond anything I've ever seen in an entertainment production.
Sure there are things I'd change, or at least tweak; I have yet to see a perfect movie. If you're really losing sleep over this, as a wise friend of mine said, "If something annoys you, go out and do it better."

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 12:41 PM

I wonder whether Orcs are capable of 1) introspection & self-evaluation, or 2) conceptualizing "evil" or "wrong." I could be wrong (but not evil), but I think they're not operating intellectually on that level. I believe they're rooted at a "pain/pleasure" level, and not intended to be truly "sentient." That's a little more subtle than JRRT's symbology permits (IMO).

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: Hollowfox
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 01:09 PM

href="http://www.subreality.com/marysue.aot.htm">http://www.subreality.com/marysue.aot.htm
Here ya go, LH, the one place I've seen where your question about orcs regarding themselves as evil even gets touched on. If you don't know what "bishonnen" means, I'll translate later so as not to spoil the piece.
I hope this, my first attempt at a blue clicky, works. I tried typing in the address to test the veracity of the addy, and it worked just fine. When I tried it on the blue clicky ,aking popup, it said "this page cannot be found". Go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: Lord of the Rings-towers-then Koreans oh
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 01:16 PM

The URL should be http://www.subreality.com/marysue/aot.htm (slash, not dot, before "aot").