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BS: Where does the violence come from?
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Subject: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: Rustic Rebel Date: 29 Mar 03 - 05:19 PM Where does the violence come from? I am feeling very disheartened right now. I'm trying to understand where it all comes from. The hate , violence, the spiteful attacks from people that I have been getting, concerning my protest to the war verses people for the war. I have been called a Communist twice now. A hippy bitch, a treehugger (well yeah, I can live with that one!), worthless, a Hitler lover and more. All these came from young men in their early twenties. It seems like it is an exploding scene of violence, that I really want to stay away from, but that would stop me from presenting my first ammendment rights of free speech. So I am going through this turbulent state of mind right now. My old man got into a near fight at a tavern the other night defending my right to protest. He said 5 guys ganged up on him, because of me. It almost came to blows. Talk about friendly fire- he's pro-war! But still defended my right. It is happening all around. I find it is causing me apprehension just to go down to the local tavern for a beer afraid of who or what I will get from people the next time. A friend last night told me he feels the same way I do but he doesn't let it be known because he knows he will get blasted like I have been. I don't have a problem having reasonable conversation about the subject, but then you get someone who just won't stop yelling their ideas into your face then it gets scary. I have a few questions I would like to ask ; To you pro-war folks, do you find that you have to make your point through violent discussion and name calling, or can you be relaxed and converse? To anti-war folks- is anyone else getting treated badly from people and if so, how are you dealing? To anyone raising children-Where does this violence come from? I am so distraught today, I could use some good hugs. One good thing though, I haven't lost my cool and practiced the same mentality that some of these folks have. Peace. Rustic chanting-People of the world-Relax! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: GUEST Date: 29 Mar 03 - 05:32 PM everybody is angry....us anti are angry and those pro are angry.... one more thing...whats so bad about being called a communist? *bg* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: Rustic Rebel Date: 29 Mar 03 - 05:43 PM You know Guest, that is a good question and seriously I can't answer that because I don't know that much about Communism. I just know I was brought up in a Democracy always fighting the ideas of Communism. Really I should do some research huh? A community that shares the work and the products.(from the dictionary)Sounds like the Amish! Peace. Rustic |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: GUEST Date: 29 Mar 03 - 05:56 PM I believe the violence stems from fear -- the country is at war, and that creates risk and heightened tension. I also believe the violence stems from defensiveness -- the pro-war people know in their hearts that this war is wrong. I also believe that the violence stems from ignorance -- people who were force-fed patriotism from childhood have never learned to think, to create their own opinions from available evidence. They have only learned to believe. Finally, I believe that the violence stems from a sad lack of trust -- what can we believe? Knowing that we are being lied to by our government and media makes us miserably afraid, and we lash out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: Barry Finn Date: 29 Mar 03 - 06:03 PM Rusty, remember Hitler's youth. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: Bobert Date: 29 Mar 03 - 06:35 PM Yeah, sure, RR. There's no shortage of angry, flag waving, intolernent folks out there these days. There are a lot of reasons behind it with war probably being the ceterpiece. But there are other reasons. America has been dumbed down and *thinking* is really not as important as it once was. The current admoinsitration is adept at practicing class warfare and turning redneck America loose on folks with what I view a progressive ideals. Just look at what the Supreme Court says about Por-Life being able to harrass por-choice folks. So the government itself say, hey, go ahead and practice intolerance on those liberals. And lets also keep in mind, Reb, that the working class is working harder now for less return than any time in the last 30 years. This has to have people feeling used. And many feel trappped by a system that provided lots of goodies but with them come a price: high debt! And, at least along the coasts the population's have exploded, causing over crowding which Skinner observed in the box of mice caused bad behavior. So, yeah, there is no mistake about it that lots and lots of folks are angry. If it weren't that way, Bush never would have had the support he has for attacking Iraq. A population comprised of people who have a high level of peace in their lives, wouldn't have been so quick to sign on. Now, these are just ramblings and I'm sure there are a lot of things I haven't thrown into the mix but I will agree that it is very scarey because there is no reasoning with a lot of these folks. They just want to win! Doesn't matter if they are right. Just *win*, dangit! Just win.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: Ebbie Date: 29 Mar 03 - 06:40 PM At last night's music we got into a long discussion about this very subject. I'd been bragging about Juneau's mellowness- and a couple of them told me that it ain't necessarily so... One told me that a few months ago when a local activist went public with his anti-war views he got a late night call warning him that both and his family would have to watch their backs, if the caller found out where he lives. One local musician, Buddy Tabor, who writes and releases many protest songs says he feels very vulnerable, especially since his name and his CDs have been specifically mentioned in the local newspaper letters columns. Buddy's views on greed and invasion and war mongering, power-mad administrations come through clearly in his music. He has an old song that infuriates some people: Mr. Basketball Shoes; more recently he has written a powerful one that he calls Brand New Jesus. (Chorus: Brand new Jesus, Brand new plan, Brand New Jesus, Right Wing Man) He is an articulate, prolific writer. I agree with Guest- this mood comes from fear, and sadly enough, feeds on fear. Last night there was a feel-better musical gathering at a local church- I wasn't able to go this time, but maybe there needs to be more of that kind of thing. Unless it's gone too far. Frankly, I just don't see a happy ending to all this. But I haven't given up- still working on trying to visualize a potential outcome to give me hope. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: Rustic Rebel Date: 29 Mar 03 - 07:18 PM I know how that writer feels Ebbie, and with these 5 guys on my friend the other night I was a little pensive about them knowing where I live and if they would go to any such extremes of coming over here. I will agree it could be fear, but I don't want this kind of fear to be in me, if you know what I mean. On this subject I don't consider anyone to be babbling Bobert, when it comes to expressing your feelings! Ebbie, you are lucky to be able to brag mellowness. Wish I could say the same. Small town and a smaller majority of pro-peace people around here. Maybe I'm taking it too much to heart? People seem to be so distracted with hate they can't find love and reason inside themselves. I am freightened for our children now. Thanks for your reason here at Mudcat Cafe folks, you do help. Peace,Rustic |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: katlaughing Date: 29 Mar 03 - 07:22 PM I agree with what GUEST and the others have said. Ignorance and fear mixed in with the rhetoric of extreme and unquestioning "patriotism" make for very angry and violent people. I still have hopes, though, that once they see the bodies coming home, they will begin to ask questions, esp. now that a suicide bomber has successfully lured four US military men to their deaths and Iraq is threatening more. That i.e. not knowing who to trust over there, etc. will cause people to think more critically, I hope. In the meantime, RR, you asked for a hug, so I will include this little bit for you which my mom shared with me a few years ago. It's a little schmatlzy, but maybe we all need that about now, eh?**BG**: It's a wondrous thing what a hug can do A hug can cheer you when you're blue. A hug can say "I love you so," Or, "Gee, I hate to see you go." A hug is "Welcome back, again!" And, "Great to see you!" Or, "Where've you been?" A hug can sooth a small child's pain And bring a rainbow after rain. The Hug! There's just no doubt about it, We scarcely could survive without it. A hug delights and warms and charms, It must be why god/goddess etc. gave us arms. Hugs are great for fathers and mothers, Sweet for sisters, swell for brothers, And chances are some favourite aunts Love them more than potted plants. Kittens crave them. Puppies love them. Heads of state are not above them. (LOve that one!!!) A hug can break the language barrier And make the dullest day seem merrier. No need to fret about the store of 'em. The more you give, the more there are of 'em. So stretch those arms without delay And give someone a hug today.* {{{{{{{{{{{{{{Rustic Rebel}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} *please remember to respect personal space!:-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: GUEST,Jon Date: 29 Mar 03 - 07:35 PM Stupidity, greed and fear. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: Raedwulf Date: 29 Mar 03 - 07:45 PM As Guest Jon said. Or "idiots", if you prefer. Nevertheless, if you want to be able to argue your case, you must do so coherently, RR. I just jumped on you in another thread because you didn't. Wishing that the world was a better place doesn't work. You have to be able to muster arguments that will convince doubters. Your arguments will only convince those who are already on your side... Hugs Raedwulf |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: Troll Date: 29 Mar 03 - 08:06 PM I'll go along with fear. We all fear what we cannot understand or cannot control. 9/11 taught us that we are vulnerable. It stripped away our innocence and forced us to realize that not everyone loves us. That regardless of how much aid we send, they just don't love us. This has been a great revalation to some people and it scares them. all of a sudden, their lives may be threatened at any time and their Government, which has always taken care of them, can't prevent it. So the fear gets sublimated and turns to anger and, instead of discussing our differing points of view rationally and calmly, we become hostile when confronted by any opposition There were similar feelings during Viet Nam and I witnessed some pretty ugly stuff at some demonstrations from both sides of the fence. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 29 Mar 03 - 09:20 PM The violence comes from being suddenly woken up. They say that you should not wake a sleepwalker, and this is why! The 'standard issue' American value system these days is dependent on the use, and misuse, of millions of people all around the world. People who are too weak to resist the 'breadcrumbs for diamonds' programs we've offered them... OK, so what else is new? The current administration is being 'fueled' by the profiteering it intends to take part in... by the simple act of making war. Bush won't listen to anyone, because he is a puppet. At the other end of the strings? Look for yourself! Meanwhille, the meagre situation of the US economy has been orchestrated to the precise level that inspires the timely discharge of anyone who thinks for themselves... leaving only the 'company men' for whom patriotism and fascism are indistinguishable... Meanwhile, all the rest of us are living the lean languishing lives in listless longing... lusting for love, losing lasting laughter... Peace, and Love, and Prosperity... ttr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: Bobert Date: 29 Mar 03 - 09:32 PM Exactly, ttr, and better said than my earlier attempts to capture these same thoughts. Take enough away from folks and they, all of a sudden, get real apreciative for the crumbs that Boss Hog spills. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: katlaughing Date: 29 Mar 03 - 10:26 PM The rhetoric of fear and non-control has been propogated by the White House...people have bought into it. I don't remember it ever being so pervasive during Viet Nam. I don't remember Johnson or Nixon sending out daily messages to the people of the US that they needed to be full of fear, etc. And, there was never this kind of common people groundswell of protests worldwide, people! WORLDWIDE, even before a damn war started. This IS history in the making and I do not intend to lie down and take it. Neither should any of you!!! I bless the shrub on his way and give thanks for that which is for the highest good of our country AND I do what I can to help. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: Mark Clark Date: 29 Mar 03 - 10:59 PM We all know where the violence originates. It comes from us…humankind. It's built into our DNA and manifested in our synapses and ganglia and muscles and being. It isn't TV and it isn't just an American problem. Humankind has been motivated and entertained by violence from the beginning. Even we 'Catters enjoy singing songs about women being killed because they became pregnent or murders over a poker game or a bad love affair. Most violent people of any note have had poems and songs and books celebrating or at least chronicling the events that they're remembered for. What we call civilization is mostly just acquiring the self control to rein in our tendency towards violence so we can cooperate on some things that benefit the larger group. We know it isn't violence that is the aberration, it's peace. Civilization, education, experience and faith all tell us that peace is worth struggling to achieve but it's a struggle because it goes against our very nature. Violence is simpler than reason and, for many people, offers a release from the frustrations and anxieties plaguing them. Often highly educated people will construct elaborate theories and philosophies to justify their own very human preference for violence over understanding. As Stevenson understood clearly, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde are both within us all each struggling with the other for dominance. When faced with senseless violence and hatred, the hardest response is to resist replying in kind. The idea of public demonstration in protest of policy carries with it the possibility of ostracization, the idea of civil disobedience includes the expectation of incarceration and punishment, the power of non-violence lies in the publicity associated with being beaten or killed without justification. Klatu barrada nicto. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 30 Mar 03 - 12:42 AM Oftener still, intelligent people abhor violence... and seek to stop it, circumvent it, delegitimize it, and they find diplomacy infinitely more satisfying and effective. Dontchathink? ttr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: Forum Lurker Date: 30 Mar 03 - 01:45 AM I think most violence comes from fear. If someone lashes out at you, think about what they're afraid of: looking bad, being proven wrong, their values or actions being questioned, etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 30 Mar 03 - 02:08 AM I'm of the opinion that violence comes from an absence of self love, which transfers easily to others. While hardly an excuse, it's a beginning... and then self control becomes a losing battle... We're all on 'overload' these days a bit... Notice the good, pick up the peices, find your center, and set a good example... especially when troubled people are making a ruckus... ttr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: alanabit Date: 30 Mar 03 - 02:50 AM There are some pluses on this side of the pond. Here in Germany there is universal rejection of the war - but protests have been dignified and peaceful. This is in spite of Bush's announcement that he will punish us for our disobedience in not taking part. I wonder what "The American Way" means to some people. Maybe it means that you have the right to speak your mind but that if you have a minority viewpoint everyone else has the right to smack you in the mouth. (That is covered under "robust individualism" isn't it?) Obvously fear has a lot to do with it. People are anxious about friends and relatives exposed to danger at the front. There is doubtless also a feeling of discomfort about the fate of the civilian folk. They feel that they must bond to support their troops and "toughen" themselves up to the unpleasantries of war. Those who do not share their views are seen as traitors. There can be a very thin dividing line between a group of loyl people and a lynch mob. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: alanabit Date: 30 Mar 03 - 02:51 AM I meant "loyal"... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 30 Mar 03 - 11:30 AM And loyal you are, alanabit! You are loyal to your integrity, and your conscience... and you phrase it all quite nicely! ttr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: Little Hawk Date: 30 Mar 03 - 11:50 AM The violence comes from fear. People are afraid of what they don't understand or don't feel familiar with. They're afraid they might be wrong about something. They're afraid of terrorism. And the more deeply afraid they are, the more violent their reactions are likely to be. It works the same way with dogs or cats, but on a simpler level. A frightened dog may bite. Just try not to respond to their fear with fear of your own, as things tend to get out of control when that happens. Stay calm, and try not to judge them. Breathe evenly. Stay calm. Let them be who they are, because that is their right. Confrontations with deeply fearful people do not lead anywhere useful. I observe each situation carefully, and I act in the way that seems most sensible under those circumstances. I'm not gonna roll into an Iowa truckstop, walk into the restaurant, and say "To hell with America and the U.K....I hope the Iraquis humiliate you arrogant bastards!" It wouldn't be smart to do that. :-) I am, however, going to write exactly what I think about this war, which is that it's a criminal aggression by 2 large countries against a small one, launched for totally cynical reasons, and justified by false media propaganda. I can do that on the Net, and I shall. If people don't like it, that's fine...they have plenty of space here to present their own viewpoints freely, and I'm sure they will. This isn't an Iowa truckstop. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: Amos Date: 30 Mar 03 - 11:57 AM Protesting the path to war is admirable. Once members of your tribe are in the fray, it is ineffective to assert that it should not be happening. From the middle of the damn thing, the two paths out -- forward and retreat -- invoke very different futures. I honestly think that the path forward, if done intelligently, offers much more promise for better long-term survival than the path of retreat. I have no patience for the stupid men and women who brought us to this point, but the ground facts are not optional at this point. It would be far more effective, i think, to develop new and better social mechanisms for healing the rifts left in the wake of the war, support humanitarian solutions that do something effective, and see what can be done to restore the valley of the Tigris to its former glory as a center of prosperity and peace and culture. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Mar 03 - 02:58 PM Often, when you get angry at people who disagree with you, it's an indication that, at some level, you have a nasty feeling you might be wrong. Another thing that makes people lash out is when they feel trapped. A third thing is when you feel betrayed. And a fourth thing is when you feel frightended. I suspect all four of these are in play at present. Perhaps more in the States than back here in Europe - that would be to do with being the chief actor in this drama, and about the only country in the world where being in favour if this war is seen as a patriotic expectation. One aspect of the war that must particularly make people feel frightened and trapped is that, most unusually, this is a war that can't end the way almost all wars end up, with a deal cobbled together, and a readjustment of some troubled areas of conflict, and essentially the same people staying in charge on both sides. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: Amos Date: 30 Mar 03 - 03:17 PM There is also an element of ancient archetypes floating forward through history -- if you identify yourself as an Arab, you thereby inherit the ancient rancors of the Saracen at Poitiers, or Saladin, a Kurd, at Jerusalem. Old battles seem not to die but to merely be deferred. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: mooman Date: 30 Mar 03 - 03:24 PM Dear Rustic, As many have said, I feel that basically the violence basically comes from fear and ignorance. Peace and support, moo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: katlaughing Date: 30 Mar 03 - 06:44 PM Amos, if one studies the ancient art of war in China and Japan, retreat can be very efficacious and not at all a loss of face. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: Amos Date: 30 Mar 03 - 07:10 PM I wasn't referring to loss of face, though. I am sure retreat can be done graciously. If were to choose that path, the fall-out in the Middle East would be significantly worse, I am certain, than if we complete the task laid out to replace the Hussein regime with something a little more humane. This is my opinion. We have double-crossed these long-suffering people once before. Why do it again? Even if we can save face doing so? The ground truth is that no matter how stupid we (or they) were driving us into this war, we are in the middle of it. And given that fact, we should quite simply win it. I hate being there and I want out. But the cost of backing out instead of going on through is too high, IMHO. In addition -- although I recognize this is not a popular thought here -- I am persuaded that the long term benefits to individuals in Iraq is worth a scuffle. I am sure stating this will bring down scorn on my poor head but I gotta call 'em like I see 'em. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: Amos Date: 30 Mar 03 - 07:14 PM Just to get back on thread, one of the roots of violence is the inability o stand up to the threat of violence and allowing bullying to establish itself. If the Iraqi had stood up years ago to the Baathist and said they wouldn't stand still for torture and power grabs, the whole issue of Hussein's regimen could have been resolved at much lower cost. If it had been resolved in 1991 it would have been considerasbly cheaper than it is today. Fear breeds more fear. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: Forum Lurker Date: 30 Mar 03 - 07:16 PM We've already ruined world opinion, we might as well do what we came for. The Iraqis will almost certainly be better off under new management. Much as I hate to say it, we really have no choice but to make sure that the Ba'ath Party is gone, despite the inevitable losses on both sides. I just hope we find a better way than long-term occupation to ensure Iraq a stable, non-tyrannical government. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Mar 03 - 07:28 PM "The noble art of losing face will one day save the human race." That comes from an interview article with Hans Blix published in the Guardian this week, where it is said to be "his favourite phrase when navigating these Byzantine negotiations", and it is "is informative about his philosophy". (The quote is from a Danish poet, Piet Hein.) It occurred to me that, only a couple of weeks ago, when Hans Blix said that going down the peaceful road of inspections it would take a couple of months to make sure there weren't any weapons of mass destruction in Saddam's hands, the reaction of the US-UK axis was that that was far too slow to take as a serious option. And today I see predictions that this war is likely to last until Christmas. (Echoes of how they used to say in 1914 "It'll all be over by Christmas...) "As long as it takes" is, I gather, how Bush put it - which is of course something he would never have said about the inspection process. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: Troll Date: 30 Mar 03 - 08:50 PM If Blix HAD been given the extra time the results would have as follows. Saddam would have played the same delaying game that he has ALWAYS played- throw 'em a crumb when the pressure is on and then delay again- until, for sheer economic reasons we had to withdraw our troops from the Persian Gulf region. Then he could go back to the same hard-line intransigence that he has displayed since 1990 and before. All the while continueing his quest for the development of WMDs. How will it all end? The following is an opinion from Libertarian, Neal Boortz from last Friday. "I wrote the following paragraph during my show preparation last night: Try this scenario. Coalition troops have Baghdad surrounded, but are reluctant to enter the city to engage in urban warfare that would surely mean the deaths of large numbers of Iraqi citizens. So .. they wait. They lay siege to the city instead of invading it. This morning I awake to find that Pentagon Don is talking about just such a tactic. It looks like a siege is the plan right now. This may well be the correct military decision at this point. But it isn't difficult to see what's going to happen. Simply put, Saddam may well start killing his own people. He could cut off their water, deny them food and medicine. Lack of basic sanitation could lead to widespread disease. As civilians start dying the pictures and video would be broadcast for the world to see. America would be blamed. America won't let these people have their food, water and medicine. America is killing innocent Iraqi women and children. Riots erupt in Egypt, Syria, Jordan and other Middle Eastern nations. Leftist, anti-American protestors march by the tens of thousands in Paris, London and New York. America is killing thousands of innocent Iraqi women and children. No mention anywhere of Saddam. Finally, America capitulates. The siege on Baghdad is lifted. Troops are withdrawn. Once again, the Iraqi people are betrayed. Think it can't happen? Think again." troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: Ebbie Date: 31 Mar 03 - 12:41 AM troll, you say: ...until, for sheer economic reasons we had to withdraw our troops from the Persian Gulf region. If you're talking strictly economic reasons here, do you mean to say that holding ships and carriers and troops offshore for months on end would actually cost MORE than what combat is costing? You can't be serious. When each missile costs either $1,000,000 or $3,000,000, depending on which type it is, and all the other ordnance is similarly priced, that is a nice piece of change we've been sending around. Perhaps you mean that with each expended, and therefore to be replaced, missile someone under contract will make LOTS of money? And that's good for the economy? Replacing MREs and water and fuel to the shipbound troops would be somewhat less profitable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: JudyR Date: 31 Mar 03 - 03:45 AM I sometimes participate in a small issues board of 27 or so people, mostly liberal, but some moderates and a couple of right-wingers. I feel very strongly that this war is unjust and immoral and for all the reasons so many here have stated so eloquently -- from the trumped up reasons we are in there, to the cost of war in both lives and actual damage to our futures -- for decades to come. To the ruination of our reputations, to what it will set as a precedent, to (well you all -- the antiwar people, that is -- know the reasons). But there is one younger (22) person on that board who is very gungho war, and his only argument is that it will save lives. And he dwells constantly on the tortures and murders by Saddam's regime, as well as the suffering caused by our sanctions. I and others have argued what we feel to be true (and what we are seeing now) -- that it will only compound the suffering. I cry whenever I see these pictures of Iraqi children running from the bombs -- some on stretchers with their faces bloodied (and -- you never hear emotion about that from the prowar side -- only more about supporting the troops -- sometimes used as a taunt against us antiwar people. My question is, what do I tell them when they fling back the tortures and murders under Saddam and say we are doing this to save more lives? (Certainly that wasn't why Bush went in, nor was it even the rationale he gave among his changing rationales, until the last minute). But this young, excitable kid threw some figures at me tonight: an estimate from somewhere about 300,000 people that would have died directly or indirectly at the hands of Saddam in the next ten years. I've been reading articles lately that confirm my feelings that no matter how bad things were under Saddam, the Iraqis don't want our liberation with bombs. Nor our "democracy." Maybe it's the devil you know... But also, talking to the few Iraqis I've met and hearing about the suffering that we inflicted on them in the Gulf War, convinces me. One educated older woman (I shared a cab ride with her one day), could only speak about how hard it was for her family with no food, water or hospitalization after that war. She never spoke about torture and murders. Also, my feeling has been that the tortures and murders went on if you spoke out against the government -- but weren't something of everyday life for most people. I could be very wrong. And I have to say, it's not as tangible for me as as seeing them run in horror from our bombs. I just shake my head. I have to believe there was a peaceable way to solve it, but the truth is, I was for not going in at all. We cannot get rid of every brutal dictator in the world. And again, why Saddam, and why now? Still, what do I answer to sarcastic comments that I am hardhearted and being blind to torture and rape? I just know that this war is horribly, horribly wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Mar 03 - 06:01 AM We can never tell what would have happened if the Bush administration hadn't insisted on going to war at this time. It seems clear to me that there was a real possibility of pushing ahead to a situation where we could be pretty certain that Saddam Hussein had no usable weapons of mass destruction, and in which his domestic position would have been weakened to a state where it could crumble. It is very hard to imagine an outcome now which will not mean terrible results, both within Iraq and elsewhere. Either there is a horrendous battle for Baghdad, with enormnous casualties, especially among civilians (which for me is the main thing), or a siege with the same effect, but drawn out. And Troll's scenario could very likely turn out accurate, with the worst of all worlds. And elsewhere the likelihood of major terrorist attacks is now far greater than it ever could have been otherwise. (I see President Mubarak of Egypt has just predicted that it will produce "One jundred Bin Ladens" - and that is not something he wants to see happen.) This has been an enormous and irresponsible gamble. We can hope that somehow the gamble comes off, but the chances of that happening do not seem at all good. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: Catarina Date: 31 Mar 03 - 06:42 AM RR, great thread! Thanks. I'm sending you a BIG HUG. Plus, you made me think a lot. I was brought up by a communist couple - card carrying members of the Communist Party. The most important message my parents passed to me and my brothers was: "Never judge people by their colour, or religion, or sex, or social background, or the way they dress,they think or talk ... Know them before you make your oppinion, because ignorance leads to violence. It is easier to beat a guy than to reason with him. Just remember that to begin a fight is easy, to end it is very difficult. And never hurt anyone or purpose. You'll all do enough harm to others without meaning it." By the way, my ex-communist parents came to the conclusion that there is no motive to continue being communist, at least with the meaning it had in the 30 or 40 or even 50 decade, so although they are both near 70 they have been learning and investigating, to choose and direct their vote. So, I believe that most violence comes from ignorance. If people bring up their children in the "do it to them before they can do it to you" principle, only hate and violence can come out of that. Another BIG HUG to you and try not to get very upset about people who react violently to your being anti-war. They probably know no better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: Rustic Rebel Date: 31 Mar 03 - 03:23 PM Well thanks for all the hugs! Hugs to all of you too! They do feel so good, don't they? I was pretty down that day but am much better today. I don't get angry at the people who want to start a fight. Maybe that pisses them off more, that I don't fight back? I think that article that McGrath posted about Blix's emotions are more like mine. Sadness and disappointment. I just get sad when I see so much anger from these young people. A friend came up to me yesterday, beaming pride that he made up a sign that said, I support our troops on one side, and Let the Iraqis pay for the war on the other. He is a pro-war friend. Anyway, he went down to the corner, and stood by himself and rallied for the war. Said he was down there 2 hours without much reaction from people. Then after he tells me his story he asked me if I was mad at him for doing this! I went up to him and gave him a big hug. I said, "Tony I just love you more! How can I be mad at you for saying what you believe?" My point to the story is, even though we don't believe in all the same things, I will not hate you for your beliefs, please don't hate me for mine. Of coarse that is a little hard to say to hot-headed young men who won't let you get a word in! One more thing I would like to add, to Mark Clark, do you really believe violence comes from genetics? I wondered if anyone would respond with that answer, being it has been around for ever (violence, that is) That is an interesting theory, but violence can be controlled. Can genetics? Peace and Love to you all, Rustic PS. Raedwulf, you got on me in a thread? I'll have to find it and jump your back, back!(smiling) Thanks for the hug. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Mar 03 - 05:34 PM Wars don't start because people feel violent towards each other. The people who start the war very rarely get directly involved in the violence, that happens much lower down. An ability to switch ourselves into a mode of being in which we can cope with being violent, and having violent things happen to us - that may well have some kind of genetic component, which makes it possible for fighting to actually take place. But that's not why we get into those situations collectively. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: Peg Date: 01 Apr 03 - 09:28 AM "America won't let these people have their food, water and medicine. America is killing innocent Iraqi women and children." Ever heard of sanctions? We've been killing these people for years. "Our" sanctions have all but destroyed their basic infrastructure. And our soldiers are killing their civilians with impunity as we speak. That wasn't part of the deal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: TIA Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:13 AM Back to Rustic Rebel's initial question... I've felt the same thing RR. I live in an extremely conservative area, and have many loved ones who identify with what is often referred to as the political right. Over the last 10 to 15 years I have stopped discussing many subjects with them, because discussions quickly become heated. No doubt, part of the fault for this has been mine. Since the 2000 presidential election, I have completely shunned political discussions to preserve valued relationships. I have pursued political and peace activities in a stealth fashion. In the last several months, I have heard people close to me vilifying peace advocates as naive, misguided, puppets, commies, anarchists, and traitors. Often the people spewing these epithets have no clue that I am what they have come to hate. These same people (who are compassionate members of family and the community) have in recent months said things that make my jaw drop (for instance, ending a Christmas dinner prayer with "may God save us from the muslims", or "so what if there's no proven link between Saddam and bin Laden, all arabs are Al-Quaeda sympathizers", and "who cares about the French, in one generation, they will be a Muslim country anyhow"). The scary part is, I know where these lines (and this mentality) come from. I travel a lot, and listen to the radio to stay awake. The radio in the U.S. is wall-to-wall far right wing outrageous propaganda. At any time of the day or night, one can choose between Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, Michael Savage, David Brudnoy, Micael Reagan, and innumerable local clones. These fellows project the authority of journalists, but do not aspire to a journalists standards of fact and balance. They do not allow for the possibilty of loyal opposition, or a reasoned, conscientious disagreement. If you don't agree, you are an idiot, or just evil. I used to be distressed about this mentality on the airwaves, but now I believe it has been shown to be effective for motivating voters, so the right has adopted the technique at all levels, and it has become the chosen method of discourse by the political right - from the President ("you're either with us or against us") to pro-war people in the streets ("you love Saddam you anti-American traitor"). I actually think that a vast segment of the population has been brainwashed to some degree. Of course everyone's veiwpoint is biased (and many might say that I've been brainwashed), but I really don't see the converse - I have not yet seen a sign at a rally saying that Bush wants to kill babies. I have not heard a single liberal commentator (are there any? well, maybe you could site NPR) using the type of invective that is de rigeur on the right. I think it boils down to this: a hallmark of liberalism is a willingness to acknowledge the legitimacy of differing viewpoints, while it has become the modus operandi of neoconservatism to denigrate opposing views in apoplectic outrage. Every time there is a peace rally, I fervently hope that those advocating peace do not use violence or invective in the name of their (our) cause, and I hope that someday soon, people will tire of the current fashion of demonizing the opposition. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Apr 03 - 02:24 PM But surely these people at that Christmas dinner of TIA's have all their lives been exposed to statements like "Love your enemies, do good to those who hurt you", from someone whom they would say they respect a lot more than they do any TV hate jockeys - but somehow it doesn't seem to have got through to them. How do people decide which voices they really listen to? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: Frankham Date: 01 Apr 03 - 03:04 PM My take is this. We Americans living on borrowed credit at the expense of the rest of the world. The violence comes from the unconscious idea that the note is coming due. If the buck falls, the fear will grow and violence will escalate. If we could only find something other than oil money or money in general to worship, we might be able to stem the tide. Right now, prosperity seems to be tied in with the propaganda ethos about the "American way of life". In the meantime, Bush Administration is trying to unseat a duly elected president in Venezuela,(a repeat of the Pinochet takeover from Allende), bribing Algeria for UN votes (the country who has a history of abuse as bad or worse the Hussein), and muscling Iraq to own the second largest producer of oil in the world now backed by US dollars, stifling dissent and free speech in the name of a bogus "homeland security". The only true security is to recognize that as a country America can't go it alone without the cooperation of the rest of the world. The buck can't buy true security. No security? Fear and violence. Frank Hamilton |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: Tinker Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:46 PM Rustic, I don't have an answer, but there is a little bit of a song by Sweet Honey in the Rock... the title is escaping my sleep fogged brain... that I've used with groups of adolesents when trying to discuss violence. It always seems to raise as many questions as it answers. Must I do unto others, before they do unto me Must I go out and arm myself To protect myself-From harm and injury Don't you know that is not the lesson, That I learnt on my momma's knee Don't you know you must do unto others, Only.. what you'd.. have them... do unto you.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: mg Date: 02 Apr 03 - 12:19 PM about the tortures...how about the atheletes who didn't perform well enough for Saddam's son? They were allegedly tortured...there is one thing worse than war and that is torture. And there is one absolute reason to have one and that is to save people from it. Think about it. Take responsibility for it. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: GUEST,Forum Lurker Date: 02 Apr 03 - 01:15 PM mary garvey-Those are some fairly absolute statements there. Would you be in favor of a war in order to prevent one person a year from being tortured, knowing that the war's casualties would number at least in the hundreds of dead and thousands injured? Would you be opposed to a war to prevent genocide, if said genocide were accomplished with no more pain than American judicial executions? I admire the sentiment, but things are very rarely black-and-white. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: Kim C Date: 02 Apr 03 - 02:13 PM Weeeeeeelllllllll....... Me, I'm all for everyone having their opinion on this late unpleasantness; however, I hope that people can express said opinions without malice or bad manners or what have you. I think it's important for us all to be able to do that, even if we do not all agree. I know I have felt edgy, and have been upset at what I perceive to be downright pettiness on the part of some people on and off this forum. And I said in another thread, I am torn about all the things going on in the world. I prefer peace to war any day; but on a practical level, that isn't always going to happen. I think if we want peace, we probably have to find it within ourselves first. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where does the violence come from? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Apr 03 - 02:44 PM It seems to me that war involves a kind of torture, inescapably. |