Best way to live and die

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Li Maree
Date: 06 Apr 03 - 04:45 AM

Amazing thread, I wonder if Forum Lurker will read the books recommended? I haven't read "People of the Lie", but I have read "The Road Less Travelled" by the same author. Absolutely brilliant stuff.
I myself have been for a long time asking many of the same questions as Forum Lurker, and was fortunate enough to meet a guy with similar beliefs to Little Hawk. A very important first step is to stop seeing God as something external and rather as something that is a part of yourself. When you realise that the only person who is actually in control of your life is you, it all begins to fall into place. Psychology goes a long way to understanding why there is so much suffering, for as Little Hawk says, "God provides, we decide". It's absolutely true and can be applied to just about every aspect of our daily lives. To make a decision is to make a choice, so every day we choose constantly how we are going to act, what we are going to say, what to believe, how we are going to react.
This becomes a problem only when we don't stop to think about the choices we are making. When things don't turn out as we expect, we immediately look about for someone else to blame, believing that we couldn't possibly have brought this problem/failure/suffering on ourselves.
I am still a long way from getting it all together and I apologise if this sounds a little simplistic. And I can't begin to explain the mass suffering that goes on in the world, so I won't even try. What I do strongly believe, though is the "free will" message. Your life is what you make it.

Happiness to all,
Li Maree

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Apr 03 - 01:14 AM

Little Hawk, for payment for the course (it sounds thrilling!!!) will you accept payment in the form of Nigerian money? I've got LOTS of it.

(Actually, Rick, you said that Teribus ( I think it was Teribus) and Little Hawk are actually dual sides of the same guy. "Although", you added conversationally, "Little Hawk is quite a bit taller." Cracked me up.)

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Apr 03 - 11:02 AM

A superb list, daylia. Not even William Shatner could improve on that prescription for a prosperous and happy life... :-)

For those who are concerned about diet, read a book called "Sugar Blues" by William Dufty, and also read the "Fit For Life" books and "Diet for a New America". It's all easy to read, a bit harder to follow...

- LH

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: *daylia*
Date: 05 Apr 03 - 10:36 AM

What's optional about alligators, LH? My students all use "alligators" to help them count sixteenth-note rhythms! I definitely recommend them as one of the finer things of life.

I like these pointers for good living from the Dalai Lama. Sorry I can't link you to them, but here goes anyway ... Enjoy!

                     A Message from Dalai Lama

1.        Take into account that great love and great achievements involve great risk.
2.        When you lose don't lose the lesson.
3.        Follow the three Rs: Respect for self, Respect for others and Responsibility for all your actions.
4.        Remember that not getting what you want is sometimes a wonderful stroke of luck.
5.        Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
6.        Don't let a little dispute injure a great friendship.
7.        When you realize you've made a mistake, take immediate steps to correct it.
8.        Spend some time alone every day.
9.        Open your arms to change, but don't let go of your values.
10.        Remember that silence is sometimes the best answer.
11.        Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think back, you'll be able to enjoy it a second time.
12.        A loving atmosphere in your home is the foundation for your life.
13.        In disagreements with loved ones, deal only with the current situation. Don't bring up the past.
14.        Share your knowledge. It's a way to achieve immortality.
15.        Be gentle with the earth.
16.        Once a year, go someplace you've never been before.
17.        Remember that the best relationship is one in which your love for each other exceeds your need for each other.
18.        Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.
19.        Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon. I also know that dreams really do come true and you have my Best Wishes and my best efforts in those.

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 09:12 PM

You're a rascal, Rick, but thou speakest a jawful. TV eats brain cells at an astonishing rate. It's a moot point what destroys more brain cells per hour, TV or Hi-octane Newfie Screech (the kind you burn in a spoon to show your pals how strong it is). A combination of the two is absolutely deadly.

I've got a few simple recommendations for living a good life and retaining a youthful appearance:

a)Abstain from television.
b)Abstain from cigarettes and dope and other similar drugs.
c)Drink very little alcohol, and when you do, drink it for the taste.
d)Abstain from prescription drugs unless absolutely necessary!
e)Don't get legally married! (there is the odd exception to this one, however...some people react rather well to marriage)
f)exercise & walk a lot
g)play music frequently
h)laugh frequently
i)breathe slowly and deeply, do breathing exercises
j)meditate regularly
k)admire lizards and alligators*

*(the last one is optional)

- LH

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 12:53 PM

Actually I lie all the time Ebbie.....but never about Littlehawk. I DO forget a lot though. What DID I say about him? That nobody's ever seen him and GUEST in the same room together?

Not to embarrass the boy any further, but I DO think he has the most consistantly thought out and logical political opinions on the cat.

It really MAY be all that stuff about NOT growing up with a TV!!

Rick

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 12:45 PM

Ebbie - Ri-i-i-i-i-i-ght.

Yes, well, that is a conundrum, isn't it? Have I forwarded you that great offer I received by email recently? No? I'll paste it in below:

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Think how much your self esteem will increase! Think how much more other people will respect you, realizing that you, (YOUR NAME), are not a dumbass, but a highly educated and cultured gent/lady!

Just for a teaser, we are going to give you the first part of our 3 day course ABSOLUTELY FREE!!!!

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Are you ready?

Right then. Here we go. Lesson 1: How to spell the word "in".

Now "in" is a deceptively simple word that many people have great difficulty spelling. Some get it confused with "inn" (which means a restaurant, bed & breakfast, etc.). Others get it confused with "inne" which means the same as "inn" only it's more old-fashioned. Some even get it confused with "out" because they're dyslexic...or just confused.

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Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 11:50 PM

There's one thing about you that puzzles me, though, LH. I have not found Rick Fielding to utter an untruth so I have to believe- but just how do you lengthen your body when you're Little Hawk and shorten it when you're being Teribus?

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 10:13 PM

Ask Rick Fielding about that. He keeps making up the most outrageous stories about me on this forum. Well, at least he compliments my musical skills, so that's okay. :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 09:55 PM

Good God(dess), LH! What kind of pervert are you, anyway?

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 11:29 PM

(Snort!) From the sublime to the outright silly...

Sounds like normal around here.

Why is it that no one has yet admitted to wanting to die in the arms of Margaret Thatcher?

- LH

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:07 PM

I want to die quickly and quietly, like my grandfather, not screaming and crying like the passengers in the plane he was flying.

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 01:35 AM

The links worked for me.

Thanks, Bill, I wondered if it was a c&p, then got busy with other things, came back and the thing was going, the thread I mean. Long c&p's are not supposed to happen. I'll send Joe a PM. Still the thread has been enjoyable.

kat

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 12:28 AM

You mean the original post was?

I can't seem to load your two links for some reason.

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:19 PM

quite apart from the discussion, did ANYONE besides me immediately realize that this was a big copy 'n paste? It is part of a LONG dissertation by one Donald W. Flood. (I have been catching up on Mudcat for 2 days now after being out of town.)

Look here

and here

I thought long copy/pastes was against the rules?

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 09:55 AM

You know, it is certainly ironical that Guest, Jay started this thread, apparently with the intention of converting us all to Islam...

He then disappeared. Must have gotten scared off, I guess.

Well, it's been most enjoyable. Thanks, Jay!

- LH

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 12:33 AM

Put it another way: God provides, we decide. That is, God provides the chessboard, the chess pieces, the table, the chairs, the hands to pick up the pieces, the eyes to see them, the rule book for how the game is played, the brain to reason out the moves and strategy, the emotional structure to do the "psyching out" of the opponent and strengthening of self...and we decide what to do with all that stuff, using our free will to do it. Some play the game well, some play poorly, some refuse to play at all (by, for example, committing suicide...). It's up to us how we play the game of life, but we can only work with what is within the actual parameters of the game. Science is a very useful tool for examining those parameters on the outer physical and energy levels. Religion and philosophy and psychology are very useful tools for examining those parameters on more subtle (inner) levels.

- LH

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 12:31 AM

Little Hawk-Well, I don't necessarily believe in reincarnation, but it's certainly one of the most appealing ideas I've heard. I don't think that the soul always gets what it needs, though; too many people die young and/or senselessly for it to be perfect like that. I'll try those books and see what they have to say.

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 11:08 PM

I was using the example of chess as a parable or a metaphor for the game of life. :-) So here we are back to parable and metaphor again...

You know, the way some people play chess (me included), you would think their lives DID depend on it!

What I mean when I say everyone has what they "need" is a little mysterious, I'll admit, but it hangs on this: I don't believe we live just one physical life. I believe we live many. Accordingly, the soul gets what it needs, although the body may not, from the body's point of view, in certain difficult circumstances. I don't believe I am the body, I'm just making use of it at the moment in order to have this life experience here and now.

If you don't believe that, however, then we are talking somewhat at cross purposes.

Regarding the nature of evil, there's a very interesting book I could recommend, by a psychiatrist, called "People of the Lie". It's a superb book, revealing much about dysfunctional emotional states in people who could be termed "evil" in their nature. Check it out if you can.

Regarding spiritual philosophy, I highly recommend "Conversations With God - Volume 1" by Neale Donald Walsch. Don't be put off by the title...just read the book with an open mind, and see what it tells you. You will find a boatload of common sense in it, whether or not you believe in "God" or in anything spiritual.

Seriously. Anyone who is willing to think creatively would enjoy those 2 books.

- LH

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 06:11 PM

Little Hawk-No one dies in chess. If "suffering is a step on the road towards greater accomplishment and greater joy," then why won't God pick up any hitchhikers? Many people do not have what they need, unless you consider survival merely a "want."

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 05:39 PM

Thanks, LH, well put, again.:-)

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 05:14 PM

It's subjective. You catch a fish, and the fish perceives suffering. You perceive a good catch, are happy, and you eat the fish, and you see the situation as very good. How can you claim an eternal exemption from what the fish experienced...suffering and death? You can't. You came to a physical existence, and like the fish you too must face your own limitations on a frequent basis. That entails suffering.

This is why many spiritual philosophies state that Life IS suffering. I don't agree with that viewpoint. Life is all things, and suffering is just part of the picture. Life is also joy, struggle, play, accomplishment, puzzlement, wonder, laughter, work, and so on. And that's good. It would be dull if we were already at "the goal". What would be the point of that?

It's no fun playing a great game of chess if you're already at the checkmate before you thought of the first move! And it's not much fun playing a game of chess that's so easy (because of a weak opponent) that you win every time in 7 moves or less. A good game of chess involves risk, struggle, and suffering. And you learn a lot from it that way. You become much better at it.

Suffering is a step on the road to greater accomplishment and greater joy.

And we do have exactly what we need...we just don't necessarily have what we consciously want at any given time. And people call that "suffering". I'd call it "motivation". Where would we be without motivation?

Most of the time, I find Life to be pretty good. Not perfect, just pretty good. I imagine the dinosaurs enjoyed Life most of the time too. Most animals do. I've watched them, and they look more relaxed and happy than a lot of people I know. People think too much (in a certain sense), and they "want" too much. That makes them unhappy.

People need to cultivate more gratitude.

- LH

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 04:57 PM

I understand what you're saying, but I think it still fails to address an important point: Why is it that, rather than creating us with what we need, we are forced to learn through trial and error, which is both painful and often unsuccesful? Why learn from a malady when you can simply possess the knowledge without suffering? Why undergo evolution towards a goal when you can simply begin at the goal? You don't need to have dinosaurs, then wipe them out, then go through 65 million years of suffering to get people. You can just start with the humans from the outset, and if you want dinosaurs too, stick them in wherever you want. God is cosmic and all-powerful. For God, there are no means which must be justified by the end; everything can be an end whenever and however God wishes it. It is thus incomprehensible to me why a benevolent God would create needless suffering. There is much suffering that is the fault of humans, but much that is not as well. There is no reason for the latter.

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 04:17 PM

Exactly, Don. What we call "evil" is often just the process of life itself. Other than that, what we call "evil" is the unwise use of human free will...and we see a great deal of that. It isn't God who ordains evil...it's human interpretation of results that are damaging to certain parties that labels such results (and the actions that led to those results) as "evil". That's perfectly normal.

What we think is good or evil is one way in which we define who we ARE, and that's important in developing our sense of identity, so that's why we do it.

If nothing "evil" existed...then how would we know what "good" is? If cold didn't exist, how would we know what hot is? If up didn't exist, how would we know what down is?

That is why evil must necessarily play some part in the unfolding processes of Life. God does not wish or deliver evil upon anybody. People do. They define it, they label it, and they frequently practice it in small ways or large, according to their own or someone else's definition of it. They're practicing it right now in Iraq...on both sides.

To blame it on God is just downright silly. Be thankful that God has allowed us all a full measure of free will and free expression, and has allowed it to everyone else as well, instead of managing us all like puppets so that everything can be "Good"...in your estimation of what you think "good" is. That would be the end of both free will AND evolutionary progress.

- LH

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Kim C
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 04:04 PM

How did I get depression of my own free will? It was my own free will to finally do something about it, but if it were entirely up to me, I would have rather not had the experience at all.

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 03:14 PM

Don, from what I can tell, you've got lots of Karmic Brownie Points, so I think you'll really enjoy the next time!:-)

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 03:11 PM

That's a bingo, Little Hawk. Well said.

Since I was about six years old, I haven't been able to accept the picture of God as a cranky old man dressed in a toga, sitting on Arturus Twelve, and granting blessings and hurling thunderbolts at people who please Him or piss Him off. Yet, lots of people do. The personification of God is strictly man-made, and that's where we get into trouble.

The problem of Evil. Whether something is evil or not seems to be a matter of human interpretation. Is a hurricane that wipes out a coastline and kills a lot of people evil? From our viewpoint, yes. But to Nature, it's neutral—just something that happens, an unavoidable natural process. Is a serial murderer evil? He's sick, warped, and has to be stopped or restrained. We still don't know how he got that way. How about someone like Hitler? It's hard for me not to say that he was evil, but what was he other than a madman and a serial murderer on a grand scale? It's more of a problem in psychology than one in theology.

Bad things happen. That's the nature of life. If something evil (detrimental to human life) happens, we naively ask why God (the process of Life itself) allows this to happen. Well . . . it's just part of the process of Life. Was the meteor that wiped out the dinosaurs 65 million years ago evil? From the viewpoint of the dinosaurs, yes, indeed. But that allowed mammals to come to the fore and evolve, eventually producing us. From our viewpoint, that's good. (Future species may judge otherwise.)

Just thinkin' out loud here. . . .

By the way, kat, I hope you're right about reincarnation. I'm just starting to get the hang of this Life thing, and I'd like to be able to keep at it until I eventually get it right.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 02:24 PM

It is my belief that we choose to come into this world to experience a certain malady in order to learn from that malady. I also believe that karma comes into it.

Suffering comes about through the actions, thoughts, etc. of humankind, not because of god, imo.

Ego is exclusive from enlightenment because to have ego, to realise self, is to automatically separate ourselves from god/cosmic. When we do that, we are also disconnecting from that which IS god/enlightenment/cosmic. I am talking in absolutes here, please understand. I believe we are all *tuned in* to some extent all of the time, BUT what matters is if we are paying attention and letting our "higher selves" i.e. our *god selves* come through.

It's just too easy to blame god/cosmic for all of the ills of the world, esp. when one considers free will. When one says it is all god's fault, etc., one is refusing to take responsibility for where they are at in consciousness, which creates the world they live in. Our minds, imo, are like a computer. They take in everything that we input without regard for negative or positive effects. If we *program* it with negative thoughts, images, sounds, etc. then, as it is programmed, so it works to manifest that for which it is programmed. This is a simplistic explanation, because many other factors, i.e. karma, etc. can come into play, but it helps to illustrate my point about how someone can use their free will to create their life experiences. Sometimes a person can be effected by the actions of others, through no conscious choice of their own. This is another instance, though, of humankind wreaking havoc on one another.

I am NOT saying people sit around and say things like today I will manifest parkinson's or whatever for myself. Often I don't believe people are even aware of how their living ways and thoughts can be manifested in their lives. I also think people are not aware of how their environment, even the whole world's environment, can effect them and that is something we can lay completely at the feet of humankind, not god.

kat

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: GUEST,Froum Lurker
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 01:54 PM

katlaughing-How does age, or Parkinson's, or Tay-Sachs, or any disease come about as a result of our free will? Suffering exists which is purely the result of the way the world works, and as such can be ascribed to one cause alone: God. Further, if Nirvana is where God would like us to be, why aren't we created there? Why are enlightenment and ego exclusive, when ego is what makes us who we are?

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 01:27 PM

Live free, die well.

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Peg
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 12:02 PM

"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

Gandalf

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 11:46 AM

IMO, the problem is that you are still thinking of god as a personality as a real human would be. It is humankind and its free will which brings about suffering, not god. That's the whole deal with free will...god does not override our free will, unless we give up ego, etc. entirely, without question, at which point we've reached nirvana and none of it matters anymore because we see the BIG PICTURE.

God just IS without feelings, without agendas, without anything ego-based.

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Alasdair
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 11:38 AM

What ForumLurker said. If there is a God out there, then he is one sick puppy.

Al

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 11:36 AM

Little Hawk-I'm afraid that the only answers I can come up with are ones you would disagree with wholeheartedly. The problem includes the biggest question any philosophical system has to answer: "Why is there evil in the world?" Unfortunately, the only answers I can see are that there is no God, or that he enjoys human suffering. Elsewise, why would we be mortal, subject to pain, disease, and death? I can accept that human cruelty is a necessary part of free will, but uncontrollable suffering is pointless and serves only to hurt us and drive us farther apart.

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Alasdair
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 11:30 AM

I used to be a very religious Christian but packed it in quite a while ago. The Bible is indeed full of contradictions, and organised religious structures use the bits of it that they like to promote the beliefs, values and prejudices that they happen to believe in. My views are very well discussed in Phillip Pullman's triology His Dark Materials, which ultimately argues that man is essentially a physical and mental being; that there is nothing inherantly sinful or wrong with people; and that throughout the ages the various religions have tried to use "spirituality" to make people feel guilty, to therby control them, and to suppress knowledge and innovation.

If you want to believe in God and the Bible, try to stick to the good bits such as, "He has shown you oh man what is good, and what does the Lord require of you but to act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God."

Cheers

Al

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 11:24 AM

Well said, LH!

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 11:17 AM

Lurker - I think you are sort of right there: free will IS the sole reason for human existence. I think God (the process of Life itself) gives everyone free will. An overriding intelligence which gives free will does not issue commandments! A command presupposes the denial OF free will (as in the military...when the soldier receives a command he is not expected to use his free will and do something else, he is expected to obey that command). Therefore, as it's abundantly clear to me that God (Life) has provided humans with a tremendous measure of free will (provided they are willing to have the courage to use it) then Life has not issued any Commandments!

Why is it worded in the Hebrew writings as Commandments? Because the people at that time, including the scribes who wrote that stuff down, were incapable of imagining a divine being who would not be authoritative, judgmental, wrathful, and punishing...because that was the kind of behaviour they took for granted. That was what they were like, and they naturally saw the Divine in their own image (as does pretty well everbody who believes in a divine being or power). They got it partially wrong. But they were not wrong in perceiving that there was a divine force and presence behind and within reality.

You are exactly correct that if one cannot determine one's own course, then there is no point in life. Right on! And that's why we have free will...absolutely free will. At all times. In that respect, we are godlike...not surprisingly...because, as I said, we are all Sons and Daughters of Life (God) and are in the process of emulating that from which we sprang...through constant evolution and self-development. That takes (usually) many physical lifetimes, not just one lifetime. A physical body simply doesn't last long enough to get it all down in one lifetime. So when it wears out or gets "killed", then the energetic soul that formed it a cell at a time, and gave it consciousness, sets about at some point forming another physical body (through the normal biological mechanisms of conception) and has another go at experimenting with the wonders of free will in a physical World full of possibilities.

To study this sort of thing you don't need to read just one book (the Bible, the Koran, the Upanishads, etc)....you would be better off to read all of them, and to also read Taoist writings, North American Indian subject matter, and everything else you can find that's "spiritual" in nature, plus science books, and philosophy.

In all of them you will find recurrent themes that may lead you to bredkthroughs in perception.

Or maybe you won't.

Depends on your own basic nature, and that's up to you.

You also asked: "If God has no motivating desires, why does God do anything?"

Ah. That's a BIG question! I said that God doesn't want anything. "Want" means "lack". What is everything lacks nothing, therefore desires nothing.

But...God just naturally does things, because God is the very process of change and action itself (as well as the process of rest between actions). God may also do things simply in order to see what will happen. In other words, like any powerful intelligence, God is not content to rest on his/her/its laurels and stay in a comfortable rut forever, but prefers to experience new things and achieve new things on a regular basis.

God = Life = Change. Without change, everything becomes static...dead...frozen. With change everything becomes lively, enlivened, moving, new, developing, improving, evolving, happening. God is that very process of Life and of Change.

Religious authorities don't like change! They want everything to be written down on a stone tablet or in a sacred text, and held rigidly that way forever! They are not enlightened. They want to kill the very process that is Life. And they are the ones who took the committments and turned them into Commandments! (Oooooo...scary! scary!) They were the scribes and pharisees. They were the guys who killed Jesus. They are the guys who run most churches. They are the guys who call you "a sinner". They are usually (but not always) males.

A lot of scientific authorities don't like Change either! (specially if it invalidates a long-held pet theory of theirs) And you will see them opposing it mightily, unless they thought of it themselves! In this respect, they are exactly like religious fundamentalists in their thinking.

Since God is the very process of change, movement, and doing and using free will...God doesn't have to exactly desire something in order to initiate change...God merely has to be what God already is.

Does the wind blow out of a desire to blow or does the wind just blow because that is its nature?

Or is it both? (laughing)

Like I said, you asked a BIG question there. Fascinating. See if you can come up with your own unique answer to it.

- LH

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 11:14 AM

I meant it was a stumbling block in that we separate ourselves from god-the cosmic by our free will. If the goal in most spiritual paths is to be at one with god/cosmic then we have to allow god's will to take over, completely and really become at one, as Jesus did. This is very difficult for most of us to do because we have nagging doubts, desires, needs, etc.

I believe in reincarnation and I believe we are here to learn lessons from our experiences. If we are open to those lessons, imo, we progress to a higher level of consciousness each lifetime. Someday we may even attain enlightenment and become as one with god/cosmic at which point we will have no desires, attachments, etc. because god has no needs, attachments, etc. We reach this point, as I said, through lessons learned, through our thoughts, meditations, and actions, and through letting go of ego.

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 08:59 AM

katlaughing-Saying that we are part of the Cosmic that makes up everything seems circular-we are part of something that everything is part of. Free will seems to me, rather than a stumbling block, the sole reason for human existence. If you cannot determine your own course, what point is there to life? If we weren't made by a God, what is it that gives God authority over us, if any (God or authority) exists?

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: PeteBoom
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 07:36 AM

If you're looking for what is really said in any religious text, find the oldest available source and read that. Translations are nothing but a paraphrase of what was said. "Revisions" are spins on the paraphrase.

In answer to title of the thread -

Head up, shoulders back, face to you enemy (whomever or whatever it may be).

Pete

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 04:00 AM

I am not sure, at all, that I believe god "made us." I do believe we are children of the Universe, a part of the Cosmic which makes up everything. Again, I believe free will is the biggest stumbling block known to humankind. Even if god did make us, we still have free will. It is up to us to beieve or not. Believing can sometimes be very, very difficult because of what I think of as our "little self," or mundane mind, can come up with all kinds of reasons NOT to believe, esp. in a materialistic world which sends out all kinds of negative messages to fill our minds. Exercising free will to the best of our ability, for our own enlightenment and to help others, takes a great deal of discipline. It is not at all measurable in black and whiite, simplistic terms.

kat

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 11:20 PM

Little Hawk-If God has no motivating desires, why does God do anything? Any action must be inspired by a cause or motive. Further, the Hebrew of the Ten Commandments is in the imperative, not the future, tense. They are definately commands, not descriptions of what will happen.

katlaughing-Why is it that we have difficulty believing? God made us, so God must have wished us to have difficulty believing in God.

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 11:09 PM

God - the Cosmic is impersonal. Humankind has free will. Generally humankind has proven, time and again, that when things are handed to them, without merit, they fail miserably at the BIG PICTURE things of life.

God - the Cosmic has no feelings, one way or another as to how much people toil, who "gets it" or who doesn't. God wished for us each to have all that we need and/or desire, BUT only as we believe and there's the rub. It is extremely difficult for any of us to believe so strongly and fully, as Jesus did, that we let go of our "little wills" entirely and beocme one with God, as he did. The paradox is as LH pointed out: we are all of us part of God, but we are out of sync for most of the time with that part of ourselves, that Higher Consciousness.

We are each one of us at a certain and individual point in our soul's growth and it is up to us as to how much we are open to learning the lessons which come to us and which, if we follow them, can lead to the attainment Jesus had, as LH has pointed out. Of course, that is my interpretation, your mileage may vary.:-)

Also, it matters not what path one chooses to follow, Jesus, Mahomet, Buddha...all can lead to the same thing, enlightenment and AtONEness with the Cosmic/Creator/God/Goddess, etc.

kat

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:04 PM

Lurker - Yeah, fair enough. Okay, a couple of comments...

You said: "Also, I still don't see why a divine force would speak in metaphor if it expected everyone to know what it wanted."

Where do I start? It doesn't want anything. It's people who want things. How can something that IS everything want anything? :-)

That which we (sometimes) term "God" does not have a list of wants, requirements, commandments, etc...although you will find these lists in various religious traditions. Men have made up those lists. They did so because of a slight misinterpretation.

The 10 Commandments, for instance, were not commandments at all...they were committments. They were promises of what would naturally occur in someone's life if they followed a godly or enlightened path...and worked from a godly or enlightened understanding.

That is, if you are reasonably enlightened you will discover that you do not steal, you do not lie, you do not murder, you do respect your parents, etc...it will just naturally tend to go that way when you are in what could be termed a godly state of mind.

Don't believe me? Well, try it. It might work. I'll tell you one thing, it works a hell of a lot better than lying, stealing, murdering, etc...but don't take my word for it, chaps...test it by actual experience.

Like I said, God doesn't want anything...God simply IS, that's all. God is a continual and omnipresent process of Life and existence that is ("I Am That I Am").

All this, of course, is speculative as far as you may be concerned. Pick your version of what it is according to your prejudices, and feel free to believe what you wish about it! :-)

Now, as to Jesus, yes, he said he was "the Son of God", but did he say he was the ONLY one? In another passage he said "Ye are all gods and sons of the Most High"!

And that's what I believe. We are all Sons and Daughters of God. Every last one of us. What distinguished Jesus was, he had fully developed the potential inherent in that, and he had put it into powerful and beautiful action. Not many people do that, but everyone has within them the possibility of doing it...as soon as they decide to.

And that is truly marvelous.

Anybody want to talk about Shatner now? :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:03 PM

Troll-The question then becomes, "Why does the creator force us to toil?" It cannot be to improve our character, because he may create us as he wills. It can only be because something about the labor iteslf is pleasing to him. Generally, people who enjoy watching others work towards a difficult goal, and seeing many fail entirely, knowing all the while that he could give them the answers without any loss to anyone, is called a sadist. People get offended when you call God a sadist, though.

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Troll
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:00 PM

Which doesn't say much for the Creator. Unless, of course, the Creator wants you to really WORK at getting it, somehing most people are unwilling to do.
They want the whole thing to take 5 minutes so they don't miss anything of their favorite TV shows.

troll

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 09:47 PM

Well, no, Homeless, but that's different. You didn't get to decide the rules of calculus, or the ability of people to learn it. A creator deity can usually do anything it wants, so if we fail to get the message, it's because either we, the message, or both were made in such a fashion that we wouldn't get it.

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Troll
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 08:19 PM

Live like a lion and die without pain.

troll

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 08:13 PM

Best way to live and die--yes, live slow and die fast, WITH DOGS!!!

Subject: RE: Best way to live and die
From: Homeless
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 08:03 PM

Two reasons. People don't want something they are given, because they don't value it as much as something they've earned (by figuring out). Second, not everyone is ready for a message at the same time. For example, take a group of 100 random individuals. Hand them a calculus book. Do you supposed it would make sense to all 100 of them?