BS: What is Anti-Semitism?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 03 - 10:42 AM

Yeah, LH, I think that's it. And I can see why Jews get nervous about their situation. I've heard people say someone 'looks' Jewsish, and it stuns my neighbors when I point out Captain Kirk and Indiana Jones are Jews. Hopefully that makes them stop and give the matter a second thought the next time. But then I've heard people say others 'look' Irish or Polish, so Jews aren't alone in that boat.

It seems, though, just from the posts I've seen here, that Jews try to cover too many bases. They want 'anti-semitism' to apply just to their religious system (volunatry belief), when semites are people from a geographical area. And Jews get into the whole chromosome thing in some weird argument that they can claim to be a race...endless begattings in the OT. Then they say Hitler was bad because he did that stuff.

I find it HIGHLY amusing that Jews on this thread can't account for the two oddities described above. And in utter frustration, someone has taken over my handle. On a larger scale, I suspect we are seeing the same thing happening with the 'neo-cons' in Washington. lol. What a world.

The last 'Dreaded Guest' post wasn't mine and was probably intended as sarcasm for the monitors of this forum, but it has merit. Look at the heat I've received for just asking one simple question. Can't imagine what those folks had to put up with. This is why I've never registered...hundreds of PM's from pissy Jews because I asked what anti-semitism is? I don't think so. I'll just go back to the anonymous posting here I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 10 May 03 - 09:55 AM

Oh, one more last thing before I go. I want to thank Joe Offer and Max for not giving into Mudcat's Jewish Lobby (hey there, Kol Beseder)and censoring this thread. It's good to know that, despite the efforts of certain Jews, Mudcat still stands for the American free speech that the Jews have supressed in their control of Bush Administration.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 May 03 - 02:01 AM

It's a matter of opinion, DG. (Like most other things...) If someone thinks you are anti-semitic because of what you said, it doesn't matter a fig to them how you define the term "anti-semitic".

This is why these discussions end up with people butting heads so often.

However, I get your point all right.

I think the general viewpoint about who is a Jew and who is not goes this way: If someone's parents are known to be "Jewish", then that someone is also considered to be Jewish by inheritance. Whether they have any religious beliefs or not is entirely another matter! There have been plenty of agnostic and atheist Jews who nevertheless claimed to be Jews. Like Woody Allen, for instance, to name just one famous one. I've known any number of Jews who did not have religious beliefs.

So how about that, eh?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 10 May 03 - 12:31 AM

Sorry, Ebbie...didn't mean to ignore you. One more post before I stop here.

The folks around me are country people, Bible-belt. Jesus wasn't a Jew to them. I know better, but I don't think they do. And discussions along those lines heat up real fast. I do a lot more reading and research than they do...a priviledge and a luxury for they may not have to the extent I do...so I try not to hold their beliefs against them. As long as they don't try to impose those beliefs on me. They've come to tolerate me pointing out quirks in their thinking, and they certainly point out enough in mine.

There's not much of a religious mix around here, but there IS a racial mix, and we all know our common bond is the Constitution. Look up Rep Ron Paul of Texas. Most conservative voting record in the House, I believe. Wants to repeal the PATRIOT Act, etc. So that's the kind of person we elect, but he's a conservative in the old sense of the word...minimize govt and let communities work to provide for their own...as long as govt LEAVES US ALONE. We'd rather have hard times on our own terms than on Washington's.

Anyway...yeah, Jesus was a Jew. Kind of a 'radical reformer' in my opinion. Sermon on the Mount is great, but then so is Ecclesiastes.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 10 May 03 - 12:16 AM

Hey, someone hijacked my handle for the last post. Haven't been here all evening. Geez...that's kind of like 'false witness' or something.

I won't be posting on this thread anymore. I made my point. Jews follow a chosen belief system. That makes them as fair game as 'fundamentalist preachers' when it comes to ascribing blame, etc. Saying 'Jews are bad' is no different than saying 'Methodists are bad'. Bigotted, but not racial in nature.

Guess I'll have to find a new handle...due for a trade-in anyway. Jews in America better get ready for a lot of political heat in America, given what people are learning about the NeoCons now. Ever since GWBush has been in office it's been open season on 'fundamentalist Christians', but it's starting to look like Jews are really running this nightmare.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 May 03 - 09:56 PM

Oh, sure, DG. Judea was an occupied nation. They had about as much control over the Romans as the French did in Paris in 1942.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 09 May 03 - 09:53 PM

But it was the priests of Jewish church that controlled the Romans.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 May 03 - 04:58 PM

And, if you check it, the Romans killed Jesus, not the Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 May 03 - 04:44 PM

Dreaded Guest, how do you and your friends feel about the fact that Jesus was a Jew?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 May 03 - 04:42 PM

the concern of both the people and the government, two very different entities, is primarily security, not the economy

While I agree that the primary concern of most Israelis is security, I don't think I can agree with you that this is the primary concern of the current government. I'd say the primary concern of Sharon and the Likud party is supremacy, and they are willing to pursue supremacy at the expense of security.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 09 May 03 - 11:59 AM

I'm finished with this topic, Aggie. The people who live around me hate Jews as the people who killed Jesus, and I wanted to plumb a little deeper...make some decisions of my own...before the locals go ballistic. There are no Jews around here, so like a blank slate, I asked for a definition of anti-semitism. I've based my conclusions on that. There are some good Jews and some bad, some good Israelis and some bad...as in all groups and nations. What I expected. But the hijacking of the term 'anti-semitism' by the Jews is unacceptable. Arabs are semites too.

And America will never benefit from the Iraqi oil. A couple dozen companies will benefit, but that'll be personal profit, which they'll turn over into buying more govt influence.

You tout the benefits of an 'educated' clergy and Lurker claims to be part of that educated clergy, but your tag-team ignorance is stupefying. Piping oil from Iraq to Israel will be the worst possible symbolic action imaginable in the Mid East, and we all know it. I gather you're not American, so maybe the article below won't apply to you. But it should disturb American Jews. This is why I came back to this thread...to post this link. Take a look at it.

Jumping on the Bandwagon

You talk about 'right-wing' Americans...well Jews are jumping on the bandwagon, it appears. And the sad thing is THERE IS NO RIGHT AND LEFT WING ANYMORE in America. Just privatized, expanding govt intent on eventually controlling EVERYTHING. The left wing has infiltrated the right and taken control of it, and the left-wing agenda of expanding govt is being turbo-charged by the new right...the neo-cons.

But on the topic of Jews, if the oil flows to Haifa and a local soldier comes home dead from Iraq, the people around me will take it quite personally. And I'll have to decide where I stand...with them or against them. I can only talk generalities to them so long...no Jews aren't inherently evil any more than Baptists, no they didn't kill Jesus, no they're not out to steal your children...but they won't listen to that at the funeral. And afterwards they'll only have one question for any Jews they meet...do you support Israel? If the Jew answers yes, he or she will be in severe trouble. See what I'm getting at? American Jews are going to have to distance themselves from Israeli looting, or that will be the litmus test for a LOT of non-Jewish Americans...do you support Americans dying for the enrichment of Israel?

At least I asked the questions and came to my own conclusions. Shalom to you, too.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: AggieD
Date: 09 May 03 - 06:47 AM

'Lurker...Israel is about to profit from American blood. If they do that, they are wicked. They are enemies of America. And Israel is controlled by Jews'

DG it would appear that it is actually America & possibly Britain that will most likely profit from Iraqi blood. The American right wing government has made it perfectly clear that they want to keep a presence in Iraq. If this is not to feed the greedy American public with their constant need for cheap oil, then I don't see how you can have the cheek to have a go at Israel. I would call you, as others have, blatantly anti-semitic & bigoted, as you have accused Israel of an action that is totally unproven. Has it ever occured to you to look on the positive side of this rumour, that this may be a way of promoting & securing peace through trade between a reformed Iraq? That idea may be a little naive, but who knows, stranger things happen in this life.


Shabbat Shalom

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 09 May 03 - 02:42 AM

Lurker...Israel is about to profit from American blood. If they do that, they are wicked. They are enemies of America. And Israel is controlled by Jews.

You are one of the laziest debaters I've ever encountered. If you'd bother to go back through this thread you'd see some of the lamest, most inept defenses of Jewish bigotry and racism imaginable. Defenses offered by Jews. I have received enough double-talk to realize that is the REASON the term 'anti-semitism' exists...as a way to double-talk your way out of tight spots and mark people who disagree with your religion. What a sham. Peddle your bigotry to someone who buys it. I've learned all I need to from this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: DougR
Date: 09 May 03 - 01:14 AM

Ebbie: I respectfully disagree. If you were right, there would have been no end to WWII, right? Seems to me that an armed conflict resulted in the end of the Civil War in our own country. It ended the conflict between Texas and Mexico in 1836. WWI was settled by armed conflict. An instance where armed conflict took place, but there was no permanent settlement was Korea, and it is still festering today. Had McArthur been given free hand, perhaps there would be peace in Korea today. Viet Nam is a different story. Evidently it was never intended that we win that one. Had Johnson listened to Goldwater, there might have been an entirely different ending to that conflict.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 09 May 03 - 01:07 AM

DG-For the last time, Jews do not have any such preferential treatment. I have attended the Hebrew Union College school for the rabbinate, and can assure you that no such bias exists. Israel as a country has no desire to steal Iraqi oil; the concern of both the people and the government, two very different entities, is primarily security, not the economy. To even consider the idea that "Jews are wicked" shows you as a bigot. As I said before, even the Ultra-Orthodox will accept converts whose mother was not Jewish. You have not found a single one of the flaws in the Jewish belief system, only holes in your ability to reason. Goodbye, and please get some psychiatric help, if not for your sake, for that of any friends, family members, or co-workers you might possess.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 08 May 03 - 11:23 PM

What tedium. Lurker...YOU do the homework. I said the issue came up in an earlier post, I looked into it and found it had merit. The Jews give preferential treatment to certain Jews with specific genealogies. It's a fact. You sort through the posts. And Aggie, when you said the gloves were I thought you might at last type a sensible sentence (those gloves do get in the way), but its the same old gibberish full of qualifiers. Jews do THIS sometimes and THAT sometimes...blah blah blah

The fact is Israel now wants to steal Iraqi oil. That's fine, but if the oil flows to Haifa and one of my neighbors comes home in a box, this area will then think of the Jews not only as the people who killed Jesus, but also as the people who killed a local. I'm just trying to make up my mind whether Jews are wicked or not before that happens. Simple as that. And I started the discussion with a term that has always mystified me...'anti-semitism'.

Based on what I've read on this thread, I think Jews as a group are no more wicked than any other group, though perhaps more clannish and suspicious. They present themselves as a 'non-proselytizing' group but insist the mother be Jewish. lol. And then (here I go stereotyping again), I've been told all my life how intelligent Jews are, so if I can find SO MANY FLAWS in the ways they defend their belief system in this comparatively short thread, I have to wonder why so many smart people have protected such a hypocritical system for so many thousands of years. I'm personally glad a group who could produce Woody Allen and Sid Ceasar and Mel Brooks, etc have managed to survive. But the hypocrisy...it's coming down to the nut-cutting in America when the general public discovers Americans are dying for Israel's enrichment. I think American Jews are going to have to distance themselves from Israel very publicly. We all know Israel is one of the major terrorist states in the world, and before long I'm afraid 'anti-semitism' in what I guess I'd call the 'traditional' sense of the word could hit America with a vengeance. And again I say someone wants it that way. Not me, but those who would benefit financially.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 May 03 - 06:30 PM

"peace through force. " Ah, but therein lies the difficulty, DougR. You see, I think that peace brought about by force is not peace at all. It may stifle overt dissent but it does not even begin to imply acquiescence.


AggieD, I just thought since you were making it your word for the day, you might not want to lock it into your memory in that form. The root is 'mega' - and that makes it easy to remember.:)

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 May 03 - 06:22 PM

Burke: the word "anti-semitism" has been defined on this thread more than once...by me in the fifth response, for one, with a direct quote from Webster's New World College Dictionary. DG has his/her own agenda and really isn't interested in facts.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Burke
Date: 08 May 03 - 06:04 PM

DG has been harping for a definition in this whole thread that I don't think has been answered. I suggest that when you want a term defined you look the actual word up, not it's components. You may get some of the entomology for your term by breaking it up, but not its real definition. The English language is not always logical. It's not the Jews who hijacked a term. The English language needed a term to describe events happening in the world & anti-semitism is the word coined. I doubt that whoever coined the usage in the 19th century gave a single thought to the fact that Jew<>Semite or that there were semitic people who are not Jewish.

From the Oxford English Dictionary: anti-Semitism Theory, action, or practice directed against the Jews. Hence anti-Semite, one who is hostile or opposed to the Jews; anti-Semitic.

These are the usages cited by OEC
1881 Athenæum 3 Sept. 305/2 The author, apparently an anti-Semite. Ibid., Anti-Semitic literature is very prosperous in Germany. 1882 Athenæum 11 Feb. 184/1 In these days of anti-Semitism. 1935 Economist 24 Aug. 366/1 The Nazi Party stalwarts..have all been leading an anti-Semitic, anti-Catholic, anti-Protestant..crusade. 1941 J. S. HUXLEY Uniqueness of Man ii. 50 Germanic nationalism on the one hand and anti-Semitism on the other.

DG, if the word was not anti-Semitism, we'd still have a different one to describe anti Jewishness that is based not on religious belief but some sort of heredity. We'd have it & need it because the phenomena exists. I don't know why you have such a problem with the idea that most of the English speaking world has a common understanding of this word. If you want to communicate with others you use words with the common terminology.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: DougR
Date: 08 May 03 - 05:27 PM

Aggie: I don't believe that peace will ever come between the Palestinians and the Israelis until one or the other of them wins the peace through force. Then the winner will dictate the terms of peace. I said that in this forum long ago, and nothing has happened that causes me to change my mind.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 03 - 04:27 PM

CarolC I can assure you that I have a very open mind on the situation that now stands in the Middle East.

I'm glad to hear it.

I detest as much as anyone else the murder of innocents, & I have had many arguments with fellow Jews about the injustices that happen.

I'm glad to hear this as well.

However I am just pointing out to you that Jews, need the right, the same as Kurds, Christians, Moslems, Native Americans, Black or any other people of this world, to know that simply because of their religion or origin or skin colour they will not be persecuted & murdered & need a place where they feel safe.

What makes you think I don't already know this?

When was the last time you looked at a friend's parent & saw the tattoo mark from a concentration camp on their arm & swore that never again would that be allowed to happen?

When I was 16 years old. It was my boyfriend's grandmother's tattoo.

As I have said before, all most Israelis & I don't just mean Jews, want is to live in peace.

What makes you think I don't already know this?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: AggieD
Date: 08 May 03 - 04:10 PM

OK now the gloves are off guys.

Ebbie I was not aware that Mudcat was also a spelling test. I have seen far worse, I aplogise OOOOOPPS apologise!!!!!!

DG you are talking out of your backside, as FL has said. All you need to do to become a Rabbi in a SYNAGOGUE, not a Church is to go to college & qualify, then as a priest is qualified, & does not need to be a descendent of any other line of christian priests, you may lead a community. If you are thinking of Cohanim or Levys, yes these are descendents of a certain line. These people are not necessarily modern Rabbis. In the UK our Chief Rabbi, comes from an ordinary home, went to a main stream school, where his fellow students were the usual mixture from society. It was his choice to become a Rabbi, & was then elected to his office, because he is good at his job. He in fact started his career in our local synagogue as the headmaster of our religious classes, but I suppose you will say that he must be an excellent indoctrinator, or some other crap.

CarolC I can assure you that I have a very open mind on the situation that now stands in the Middle East. I detest as much as anyone else the murder of innocents, & I have had many arguments with fellow Jews about the injustices that happen. However I am just pointing out to you that Jews, need the right, the same as Kurds, Christians, Moslems, Native Americans, Black or any other people of this world, to know that simply because of their religion or origin or skin colour they will not be persecuted & murdered & need a place where they feel safe. When was the last time you looked at a friend's parent & saw the tattoo mark from a concentration camp on their arm & swore that never again would that be allowed to happen?

As I have said before, all most Israelis & I don't just mean Jews, want is to live in peace.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 08 May 03 - 02:04 PM

DG-No, for the last time, there are no positions within the Jewish clergy that require a particular descent. If you have any RELIABLE evidence to the contrary, feel free to post it. If it's just the same anti-Semitic BS you have been spouting all over this thread, don't post it. The reason "The Jewish church" doesn't censure people is that there is none. Judaism is a non-hierarchical religion, and possesses no secular authority outside of Israel, and only limited therein. As far as your definition of anti-semite goes, think about the fact that the English language is not internally consistent. Flammable means able to ignite, and the prefix in- usually means a negation. Hence, "in-flammable" means readily ignited?! Likewise, a Semite is someone of Semitic ethnicity, deriving from the Middle East. Anti- means opposed to, but anti-Semite means a person bigoted against Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 May 03 - 12:09 PM

Pssssst... "My word of the day is Meglomania!!" AggieD, if it's your word for the day, it might be a good idea to spell it correctly.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 03 - 10:54 AM

DG and CarolC are such excellent examples of this, that we should all pity the fact that they are unable to see beyond propaganda & downright lies

AggieD, you are making quite a lot of assumptions about me. You don't know enough about me to make a statement like that. Do you think I hold the same opinions as Dreaded Guest? If so, why? If you can show me where I have endorsed propaganda and downright lies, I might revise what I'm about to say.

I suspect that you are one of those people who attribute the actions of one person in a particular group to all of the members of that group. Oh, wait! That makes you a bigot and/or a racist!

Has anyone ever thought that it has become quite trendy to give other disposed nations their lands & rights back, so what is different for the Jews?

I actually find this statement by you to be quite offensive on many levels. First of all, it's an incredibly glib way of talking about situations that involve a lot of pain and suffering for a lot of people.

Secondly, it assumes that the peope you are talking to endorse the instances where people have been displaced to return earlier inhabitants to their former homes.

Thirdly, not only does it assume that we have done that, but also that we do it in order to be "trendy".

Are you of the opinion that all Gentiles are callous, shallow, idiots?

And lastly, if a group of people showed up in your neighborhood with their holy book and told you and your neighbors that they had a claim to your land by virtue of having been chased off it several thousand years ago, and they offered their holy book as proof that God meant for them to have it, would you willingly give it up? I seriously doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 08 May 03 - 10:40 AM

Aggie and Lurker,

You're both trying to defend a corrupt status quo. Go back a hundred posts or so Lurker to the post about genetic requirements within the religion. It's there and I checked into it and its true. Jews require a geneology for certain offices. And go back to the first post for the definition of 'semite'. That's where I began, with the dictionary definition. Arabs are semites, too, yet you choose to narrow it to just include Jews. I find it odd the Jewsish church doesn't censure members who feel free to scream 'anti-semite' at the drop of a hat. Strong control in all areas except that one? You can't eat a ham sandwich but you can blast thousands of well-meaning preachers when you feel like it? You have to follow thousands of 'rules', but you can make up your own definition of anti-semitism as the need arises? Seems the church ENCOURAGES confusion on this.

This thread made me think of Clarence Thomas, for some reason. During his confirmation hearings in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Thomas couldn't answer some of the standard legal questions asked of anyone in his position. Biden and Kennedy and the rest were pretty shocked, but they persevered and asked the questions, and Thomas eventually said he would have to 'apply natural law' to one of the hypothetical situations described. Then he explained natural law as being this vague thing he could 'sniff out when he heard it'...something like that. I mean, he was imminently unqualified to sit on the Supreme Court, yet there he was, saying 200+ years of legal precedent took a back seat to his gut feeling. Pitiful. Biden should have gaveled the proceedings closed and asked for the next candidate. But instead they went on until finally Thomas said he was beginning to think he was in a 'high tech lynching'. He played the race card. Too stupid to get ahead without that being placed on the fast-track, but smart enough to know he'd get special treatment by pointing out he was black. And to their eternal discredit, the Committee gave in. And Thomas has never written an opinion to my knowledge...he just votes like Rehnquist tells him to, and Clarence Thomas appointed a Nazi to the White House because American Senators didn't stick to the principle of equality.

For some reason, that's what this 'anti-semitism' talk makes me think of. Jews seem to want a blank check they can pull out any time they're at a loss in an argument, and 'anti-semite' is that check. And if Jews are free to make up their own definition of anti-semite, then so am I. Go back to the definition of 'semite' in the first post. It includes Arabs. So if you are not AS concerned about the Arabs being murdered at Guantanamo as you are about Jews dying, then you are an anti-semite. And that's not hair-splitting. It's literal. Figured out by someone who didn't have the benefit of rabbinical brainwashing.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: AggieD
Date: 08 May 03 - 07:31 AM

At least a trained meglomaniac knows how to put his/her thoughts in reasoned order before implementing them ;)


Aggie

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 08 May 03 - 06:50 AM

Give me a trained meglomaniac any time.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: AggieD
Date: 08 May 03 - 05:46 AM

It just goes to prove my point about people not having the acquired memories to build their lives on, DG & CarolC are such excellent examples of this, that we should all pity the fact that they are unable to see beyond propaganda & downright lies that are spread by other people with meglomania tendencies.

To those of us that take note & build upon what has happend in the past 1945 is very modern history. This is why the Jews will survive over many thousands of years to come, when those people without the conviction & beliefs will just fade away.

DG Rabbis etc. have to train at some form of seminary/college before they become a Rabbi, in exactly the same way as bona fide priests do. The trouble with so many of your southern american religious leaders is that they are simply untrained meglomaniacs, who have never been through any formal training, and use their vituperative minds to drone out filth against those who are different from them.

My word of the day is Meglomania!!

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 08 May 03 - 01:32 AM

DG-You see, persistent stereotyping like "Jews WANT to lumped together" or "That's because Jews WANT it that way" aren't going to get your claims taken seriously. If you want a definition, I can give you one, and if I change it later, it's because I just finished writing a term paper and it's well past my normal bedtime at the moment. Anti-Semitism is holding and/or stating views prejudiced against Jews as a group. Now, one last time, for the record, there are no positions in the Jewish clergy which require a particular heredity. There aren't all that many positions in the Jewish clergy at all: The rabbi, and possibly the cantor and the sofer. None of these positions require any heredity, merely being a practicing Jew properly trained in that profession. I would tell you to get your facts straight before posting, but then we'd never hear from you again. Wait, I've got an idea.

Get your facts straight before posting.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 08 May 03 - 01:23 AM

Why do you give advice but no definition? Still no precise definition of anti-semitism. That's because Jews WANT it that way.

But evasions on this topic won't stretch much further. Americans just died so Israel could steal Iraqi oil? Not acceptable.

America is now doing clean-up work in Israel's backyard. I'm pretty tolerant compared to the 'Jews killed Jesus' crowd around me, but once the body bags start coming back here because Israel wanted free oil, no one'll be able to keep a lid on things. Maybe that's the way someone wants it.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 May 03 - 11:12 PM

DG, as just about everyone who has felt it worthwhile has told you, criticizing Israel is not anti-semitism. Israelis feel just as free to criticize their government as Americans do theirs, and American, British, French, Russian, Canadian, and so forth Jews are just as willing to do so...and please don't waste any more time on the "concentration camps are ready and waiting" BS.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 07 May 03 - 11:02 PM

Am I an anti-semite for posting this?:

ATHENS – Nothing could be better designed to undermine the coalition's promise that Iraq's oil should benefit its own people than Israel's proclaimed wish to "reopen" a long-unused pipeline from Iraq's Kirkuk oil fields to Israel's Mediterranean port of Haifa...

Story

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 03 - 10:44 PM

Thanks artbrooks.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 May 03 - 10:36 PM

CarolC: my field of choice is Early Modern European history...and 1945 is recent. The Vietnam one began with unification in 1975-most of the boat people were/are ethnic Chinese. Kosovo was about 1999 to present and the other two are happening right now.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 03 - 10:12 PM

Ok, Artbrooks. I haven't looked into all of your examples but I did check out the Northern Poland one. I think you have misunderstood my question.

AggieD said, "it has become quite trendy to give other disposed nations their lands & rights back". Using the words "has become" suggests a new or recently started trend. The expulsion in Northern Poland was in 1945. I was asking her for examples of situations that support her contention that such practices have "become quite trendy", rather than places where it used to be trendy. I'll check out your other examples as time allows, but I don't think the Northern Poland example supports what AggieD was saying.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 07 May 03 - 09:44 PM

"...I can SNIFF OUT anti-semitism when I HEAR it." I think that's my favorite definition so far. Kind of sums up the logic behind the slur.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 03 - 09:19 PM

Ok artbrooks. I'll see what I can find myself. Would you be willing to give up your home so the American Indians can have their land back?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 May 03 - 09:12 PM

I could, but won't. All of these are very well known.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 03 - 08:59 PM

Yes, artbrooks. Can you point me to some background for the places you've mentioned please?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 May 03 - 08:54 PM

CarolC: Rhodesia/Zimbabwi (whites), Kosovo (Serbians), Vietnam (the ethnic Chinese), Northern Iraq (the Arabs by the Kurds), Northern Poland (Germans)...want more?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: JudyR
Date: 07 May 03 - 08:30 PM

Carol C, I did read that article and found it thought-provoking, but don't have time to go into it this minute. I hear what the Rabbi is saying.

But on the other matters, as liberal (and even radical) as I have been in my day, I can sniff out anti-semitism when I hear it.

I think maybe I'll heed the advice of some others on here, and stop taking DG seriously. As I said before, his duck walk and talk is enough for me.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 07 May 03 - 07:57 PM

So stereotyping makes you an anti-semite? Such crap. Jews WANT to be lumped into a group. Look at the responses just from this thread for proof. And you can't ask to be considered a group and then feign offense when a certain amount of stereotyping results. And you can't advance to certain offices within the Jewish church unless your pedigree is right. Racism.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 07 May 03 - 06:58 PM

DougR-I don't know where you got the quote "many examples," but if you are referring to American terrorism, I will mention the napalm bombings in Cambodia, the American occupation of the Phillipines, the entire history of U.S. dealings with Amerindians, and "Operation Shock and Awe" as being terroristic, all by the definition of terrorism in the Patriot Act.

DG-You almost had us convinced that maybe you weren't an anti-semite, and then you had to go and ruin it with a stereotyping sentence: "I admire the tenacity with which Jews present their single-minded arguments." While criticizing Sharon doesn't make you a bigot, lumping all Jews into a single block certainly does. To clarify a few misconceptions you have, I will state that in no aspect of Judaism is a Jewish bloodline necessary. Even the Ultra-Orthodox will accept converts. While Judaism as a religion is a voluntary belief system, the ethnic and cultural traditions associated with Judaism are, like all traditions, hereditary.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 03 - 05:48 PM

Has anyone ever thought that it has become quite trendy to give other disposed nations their lands & rights back, so what is different for the Jews?

Can you cite examples of places where it has become the "trend" to displace people in order to give native peoples their land back?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 07 May 03 - 05:24 PM

Seems you folks who question me just prove my points. AggieD, you talk about the extended group that is the Jews, then you talk about criticism of Jews being racist. So, by criticizing a mass-murderer like Sharon I criticize all Jews by extension, and then, by extension of the insane argument that Jews are a race, I am a 'racist' for criticizing Sharon. Incredible.

I admire the tenacity with which Jews present their single-minded arguments, but they are no longer just THEIR arguments. Israel is now benefitting from the US presence in the Mid East, and Americans are going to demand answers. And screaming 'anti-semitic' at Americans who question won't help the situation. Find some new tactics.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: AggieD
Date: 07 May 03 - 03:57 PM

What DG fails to understand is that genetics aside Jews in common with other ancient nations have 'acquired' memories. I am sure it is very difficult for anyone who does not come from a background where they know their identity with certainty, can understand how it feels to be a part of any ancient nation, however it may be defined. He and many others obviously have no idea how it feels to be dispossessed, after all the Jews were thrown out of a much larger area than the one that is now called Israel. It is very trendy in these modern times for people to talk about the rights of the Aborigine, Native American, etc., but despite the Jewish nation being dispossessed for thousands of years we are still having to justify the fact that we want a land where we feel we can belong without being killed & tortured for our beliefs. Most Jewish Israelis are perfectly happy to live alongside non-Jewish Israelis. They simply want peace & to know that they won't be killed when they are going about their ordinary lives. Has anyone ever thought that it has become quite trendy to give other disposed nations their lands & rights back, so what is different for the Jews?

Jews all over the world raise money that benefits all Israelis, no matter whether they be Palestinian or not. This fact seems to be kept very quiet when Jews are being berated.

As for Anti-semitism, that is a many headed monster. It is just as relevant against a single person, as against a Nation. Surely it is not anti-semitic to disagree with a person simply because they are Jewish? However to launch an attack against any person or nation only because they are Jewish must surely be anti-semitism. Also it would be considered as racist if derogatory remarks were made against anyone with a black skin, despite the fact that their ancestors did not come from any particular 'race', but would have come from the huge continent that is Africa. So is it any less racist to discriminate against a Jew, or make remarks that could be deemed to be racist, as opposed to a black person?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 May 03 - 01:43 PM

GUEST,Kol Baseder (Lo), it is that nature of Mudcat to allow free and open debate. Any suppression of viewpoints is, obviously, censorship, and apart from deletion of personal insults and abuse, it simply isn't practiced here. It is essentially in the same spirit with which the American Civil Liberties Union endeavors to defend freedom of speech for all individuals and groups, no matter how offensive the individual or group may be. You cannot have true freedom of speech if you allow suppression of unpopular viewpoints. In fact, in this day and age, that direct path to tyranny is like the many-headed hydra, and must be fought wherever it attempts to appear.

If you spend much time around Mudcat, you become familiar with the viewpoints of the people who post here regularly, and you can pick and chose who you feel are worth reading. There are some who have viewpoints diametrically opposed to my own whom I read, because their posts seem to be well thought out and they quote their sources. I am sufficiently open-minded (although, I am sure there are those here who would disagree) be willing to changing my views if they can convinced that I am wrong and they are right. Thus, one learns, and I am always open to learning.

But there are others who are ill-informed, or whose beliefs are so locked in that the best they can do is sit back and make snide remarks or try to refute a well-reasoned post by slapping a label on the poster with no attempt to offer an equally well-reasoned counter-argument. And, of course there are a few like Dreaded Guest who are locked into posting long screeds about fancied worldwide conspiracy theories who are a total waste of time to ever bother reading. Some time back, I wasted a ridiculous amount of time and energy trying to set this individual straight about something I have first-hand knowledge of and s/he only read about on some conspiracy web site, but to no avail. So I no longer bother with DG's posts, neither to read them, nor (especially) to waste my time answering them.

Apart from this, I find that I have learned a great deal by reading and participating in these threads. There are some very knowledgeable people here.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 07 May 03 - 11:27 AM

No, its argumentum ad hominy that's culturally based

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 07 May 03 - 11:10 AM

There you go again. I began this thread asking what anti-semitism is. Really wanting to know. I've been careful to not pass judgement, and when I finally did, it was to criticize the Nazi Ariel Sharon. Not criticizing Israelis, not criticizing Jews, but criticizing a murdering terrorist. And now I'm an anti-semite. So my ever-evolving meaning of 'anti-semite' now means someone who criticizes a mass-murderer who claims to be a Jew.

And I run across an article which uses the term 'anti-semitic' and quote it here, and THAT makes me anti-semitic. Geez.

What I've learned so far on this thread:
1) The dictionary describes Arabs as being semites, too, yet Israelis kill Arabs and then criticize anyone who questions this murder.
2) No one (not even Jews) can explain WHY they must be Jewish. I say it's a belief system, but some say they have no choice in the matter...they're born that way. They call themselves a race. But they're not...it's a VOLUNTARY belief system. Calling someone anti-semitic may be a way of hiding behind the 'race card'.
3) To rise in certain parts of the Jewish religion you must have certain genetic qualifications. Just like in Hitler's Aryan Germany. No one will discuss this topic further. Seems touchy. Seems hypocritical, too.
4) Someone said 'anti-semitism' is an example of an ad hominum argument...meant to divert attention away from the matter under discussion. This seems to be the case, because I just mentioned an article about no Israelis dying in the WTC even though 1,200 worked there. I asked if it was true (innocent and sincere question), and I was attacked as anti-semitic by people who haven't looked into it. Couple of people tried to equate Jews with Israelis, but they know better.

It seems, in adding this all up, that Jews are reluctant to let 'outsiders' get too close. Hence the 'anti-semitic' label for anone who asks questions. That's all I can conclude after 150+ posts and responses. Couldn't really care less what any of you lobotomites think of my analysis process. It's turning out to be pretty ugly, though. Look at the 4 points above again. Not pretty at all.

Another 9-11 / Israeli link, for what it's worth