BS: What is Anti-Semitism?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 10:00 PM

Do you think you're the only Jew in this forum, musicmic? And where on this thread did the subject of whether or not there should be a Jewish State come up?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: musicmick
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 09:17 PM

I should have known better than to try to convince you geniuses that a Jew might know more about what defines a Jew than you do. I foolishly thought that this thread was an attempt at enlightened discourse rather than just another bash the Jews forum. Adolf Hitler understood who was and was not a Jew. He did his sorting out by bloodline, not by belief. Centuries of Pogrom and massacre by the Cossacks and the peasants of Russia and the Ukraine, the Khmelnitski atrocities against the Polish Jews when 6000 Jews were slaughtered, in none of these occasions did the murderers ask if the Jews they were killing were pious, reformed or non-believers. It seems to suit the politics of this discussion group to believe that Jews are those who choose to be Jews. (I have heard that same argument used to discriminate against Gays) I also love that you dont see why there should be a Jewish state but I have yet to see you objecting to Arab states. I guess you have answered the question in the heading. What is Anti-Semitism. You are.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Sam L
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 07:18 PM

Well, sure DG, I've seen that--I once worked with a Jewish picture framer who, if you had to ask him to re-do some sloppy work, would go off muttering about how after thousands of years of persecution, he's not surprised.... It was hilarious. You can resent a slander without trying to parse it.

But unless you have some worries about yourself, I think you just have to stare it down. What else are you going to do? Arguing it out only gets worse, like a piece of tape on your finger and you try to get it off and it sticks to your other hand and etc. In the example you raised I'd just stick to free speech issues and ignore the Jewish/race/ belief/Sammy Davis jr etc., it's like a Zionist infection. You'll end up with Lincoln, who was not a Jew, but rejected Jesus, does that make him vaguely Jew-ish? You'll be trying to figure out Dylan's born again stuff--Dude, turn back! It's beside the point, one hopes. So leave it there.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: SINSULL
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 06:50 PM

Dreaded Guest,
I believe you ar ereferring to the law passed in Pennsylvania. Agape Press covers it. It does not ban preaching against homosexuality from the pulpit. It does mandate stiffer penalties for hate crimes. As i understand it, if a preacher suggests to his congregation that they should go out and harm or harrass homosexuals or murder abortionists, he will be held liable. This type of legislation brought down the KKK. IMHO, just another form of "Don't yell 'FIRE' in a movie theater unless there is one."

Partial Article:
(AgapePress) - Pastors in Pennsylvania are facing a new state law today that could mean they will be charged for simply preaching against homosexuality.

On Monday, the Ethnic Intimidation law in Pennsylvania called for longer jail terms and higher fines for crimes motivated by hatred against victims because of race, color, religion, or national origin. But with the stroke of a pen on Tuesday, Governor Mark Schweiker signed legislation amending that law to include the phrase: "ancestry, mental or physical disability, sexual orientation, gender, or gender identity."

So what does that mean? According to The Washington Times, it means that someone who is convicted of attacking a homosexual because of his sexual orientation would face a longer jail term and stiffer fines -- just as a person does now for targeting a racial minority.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 04:42 PM

It's a common enough thing for people to be accused of anti-Semitism for criticizing the government of Israel. And it's not just arm-waving loonies who do it. Sometimes it's just normal people of various faiths and ethnic backgrounds who have been taught to believe that only anti-Semites would criticize the government of Israel. Denying that this is the case won't fix the situation. As with all generalizations about people, the only way to correct it is to educate people about it.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 04:11 PM

DG:

Obviously you are mixing with the wrong crowd. Anyone who would jump to a racism stance when an individual person -- regardless of their faith was being criticized in a constructive, or intelligent, or specific way -- not an ad hominem way -- is obviosuly an arm-waving loony given to broad generalizations and incapable of clear precise thought.

Either that or the "criticisms" were actually personal, or wide meaningless generalizations like the one you posted above ("Yet if you criticize a Jew, it is sometimes made out to be 'racism'. The opening link may have been a lousy one to use in starting this thread in order to get to this point, but yes, that is my fundamental problem with the 'anti-semitism' tag. If you criticize someone of the Jewish religious group, you are a racist"). May I suggest you find a more discrominating group of associates to talk to, and strive mightily to be worthy of their company?

A

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 03:56 PM

OK, what I'm rabbitting on about is that I don't believe the Jews are a 'race' of people. Yet if you criticize a Jew, it is sometimes made out to be 'racism'. The opening link may have been a lousy one to use in starting this thread in order to get to this point, but yes, that is my fundamental problem with the 'anti-semitism' tag. If you criticize someone of the Jewish religious group, you are a racist. And I HAVE read of 'anti-semite' used in that context many times and will try to find examples if I give a damn later. I've heard and seen it used that way enough for MY satisfaction, at any rate. And it's not right. And given how the US was just sold on the Iraq invasion (50% of Americans thought Saddam did the 9-11 job), we can be sold ANYTHING. So I'm just trying to get ahead of the curve on this one. The Mid East debacle is going to mean a lot of Jews immigrating to America as the Arabs murderize them in Israel, and I just wanted to get straight with myself that I wasn't being racist when I tell them I don't agree with them. Really...simple as that. I've never had to give the matter much thought.

And restraints against the First Amendment have already been passed against Christians, Don. Several months ago the governor of Virginis (?) signed legislation passed by the Republicans there against bashing homosexuals from the pulpit. A lot of fundamentalists preach that the Bible is against homosexuality (and they make as good a case as you can with a book as open to interpretation as the Bible is), yet a secular ruler ruled that they could be imprisoned for condemning homosexuality. I believe that was in Virginia. The fire-breather I heard on the radio where I first heard it was astounded Caeser would command him not to rail against the 'queers', as he put it, and that was an odd broadcast. Obvious hate speech, but it was the man's right to speak that way, or was it? I'd say yes, and then let him suffer the reprisals. But you mentioned restrictions on the First Amendment...I'll try to re-locate the particulars of that case if you're interested. Had the bill number and everything. I agree that would be the end of America...or the beginning of the end...but I think its already under way.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 03:32 PM

It's my understanding that the Lutheran Church is very strong in the Scandinavian countries, particularly Sweden and Norway. There is a large number of people living in Seattle who are of Scandinavian descent and, of those who go to church, most of them go to Lutheran churches. There is a historical association between being Scandinavian and being Lutheran, and it would appear to me that this is analogous to the association between certain portions of the Semitic peoples and Judaism, as is neatly and clearly explained by Mark Cohen above, 26 Apr 03 - 07:37 PM (Aloha, Mark!). I don't think either "Scandinavianism" or "Lutheranism," or the combination thereof, constitute a race. Not, at least, in any anthropology textbook I've ever seen.

In 1924, an thirteen-year-old German girl named Helene Mayer won the German national fencing championship. She went on to win a gold medal at the 1928 Olympics. She continued to pile up a mind-boggling stack of medals and trophies over the next several years. While in Los Angeles to compete in the 1932 Olympics, she got the word that her German citizenship had been rescinded and she had been expelled from the Offenbach Fencing Club in her home town. Why? Well, it seems this five-foot ten-inch tall, green-eyed young woman, with her blonde hair tied back in braids, who could wield a foil with devastating skill—this young woman who looked like the quintessential Aryan, the very picture of Brünhilde herself—was born of a Christian mother and a Jewish father, neither of whom practiced any religion at all. They went to neither church nor synagogue. Now an unhappy expatriate, forbidden to return to her family and friends back home, Helene decided to stay in the United States where she went to Mills College. She won the 1934 and 1935 U. S. Women's Foils Championships and could have fenced on the U.S. Olympic Team. But she regarded her loss of German citizenship as some stupid bureaucratic blunder, didn't realize what was really at stake, and wanted her citizenship back.

The 1936 Olympic Games were to be held in Berlin. Hitler was relying on the Olympic Games to demonstrate to the world the superiority of the "Aryan Race," so to insure the "purity" of his athletes, he banned all Jews from the German Olympic teams. This created a mild furor in several countries, including the United States. Jewish athletes and many others who were sympathetic threatened a boycott. This wouldn't look good for the smooth running of the Olympics, so Hitler took threat seriously. In an effort to forestall a boycott and an international black eye, he (through an intermediary) begged Helene Mayer to return to Germany and compete on the German fencing team rather than fence for the American team. As an inducement, he indicated that he would restore her German citizenship. She was to be the token Jew. At least, Hitler contented himself, she was only half Jewish.

She accepted. She fenced in the Olympics and, disappointingly, placed second, winning the silver medal. Ironically enough, Ilona Schacherer-Elek from Hungary, who won the gold, and Ellen Preis from Austria, who won the bronze, were both Jewish. Although Germany won most of the medals at this Olympics, it was not a clean sweep for the Aryans. In addition to "non-Aryans" winning the top three places in women's fencing, Jesse Owens, pretty obviously a non-Aryan, dominated the track and field events. Hitler was visibly pissed! At one point, he stalked out of the arena in disgust.

Helene realized that things had changed in Germany, so after the Olympics, she returned to the United States and applied for American citizenship. She taught fencing at Mills College and went on to win a total of eight U. S. Women's Foils Championships before she died at an early age of ovarian cancer.

Helene Mayer was vilified by many people for accepting Hitler's offer to return and compete for Germany in the 1936 Olympics. Monday morning quarterbacking says that this was a highly questionable choice on her part, but she was politically very naïve, and like many people who should have known better, didn't really understand what was going on in Germany at the time. All she wanted to do was earn her degree in social work and spend her free time pursuing the sport she loved.

I don't know what all of this proves or what point I'm really trying to make here, other than to give an example of the kind of incredible self-defeating stupidity that can be displayed by those who feel threatened by anyone who didn't come out of the same cookie-cutter they came out of. This can—and did—reach Holocaust proportions when it guides the actions of those afflicted with this moral flaw who somehow manage to attain political power.

In a way, Helene Mayer was lucky. She left Germany before it was too late. Whether or not she practiced any religion at all, the fact that she had "Jewish blood" (whatever that is) could have spelled her doom, as it did for so many others. If I fault Helene Mayer at all, it's for being politically naïve. A dangerous non-position in that era.

And in this.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: NicoleC
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 03:28 PM

I think, Fred, our DG is saying that those who hate Jews aren't racist because he doesn't believe Jews are a "race."

By whatever definition, that doesn't mean they aren't bigots and hate-mongers.

But since neither has anything to do with criticizing the government of Israel, I'm with you in that I can't figure out what he's going on about. Again.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 03:22 PM

Everyone has a choice as to their beliefs. The question is "Is it a conscious choice?". Or: "Are they aware they have a choice?"

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Sam L
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 02:59 PM

Dreaded Guest--exactly who is it that says Jews are a race and have no choice as to their beliefs? I've never heard that one, ever, and really don't know what you are going on about. It really is a no-brainer.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Sam L
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 12:20 PM

It was a good point made up there, that while anti-semitism doesn't make sense, it's senselessness doesn't pertain to the beliefs and culture of Jews, it's a nonsense concocted by--anti-semites. Some of them were of a mythical race. It doesn't have to make sense to be real, and the fact that one feels unfairly labeled that way still doesn't make it unreal. The fact that someone may "play the race card" in an argument doesn't mean there isn't any racism. Because it "doesn't make sense". No, it doesn't, but yes, there is.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 12:15 PM

Art Thieme - Good point there! And very succinctly put. So, how do you define what a "Jew" is? Is it a religious designation, a genetic one, a cultural one, or a social one? Or is it various of those in one combination or another?

Obviously, the word "Jew" means, as in the case of numerous other words, whatever the person using it thinks it means. No wonder people are always arguing about these things and can't come to any agreeable conclusions... :-)

I would tend to agree that generally speaking a "Jew" is seen as someone whose parents are "Jewish"...except in the case of Sammy Davis Jr.???

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 12:02 PM

Well, some say Jews are a race and have no choice over their religious orientation, and some say otherwise. I think otherwise.

If Jewishness was a hereditary thing, then how is Sammy Davis Jr. accounted for? This is a no-brainer, folks.

If you are a Jew, it is because you CHOOSE to believe the stuff taught by the religion. Can't be any other way. If it WAS the other way, a Baptist could say, "I don't have any choice over the matter, because my daddy and his daddy afore him were Baptists." Believing in Judaism is what makes you a Jew, nothing more. You're not born with it. If the Jews want to be 'exclusive' and say you need certain genetic markers to be a 'real' Jew, that's their business. As long as they don't force that crap on me and call me an 'anti-semite' when I point out it is crap.

No offense meant to anyone. Honest. I just think every RUMOR of passing laws and regulations against the First Amendment needs to be thoroughly picked apart and, if true, nipped in the bud.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 08:20 AM

Obviously being highly critical of the activities of Israel doesn't imply anti-Semitism. Nor for that matter would it be anti-Semitic to be anti-Zionist, in the sense of being in principle opposed to the idea that Israel should by definition be a Jewish state, with the implication which that carries, that Israelis who are not Jewish should always in some sense be second-class citizens.

On the other hand anti-Semitism does obviously exist among those who are critical of Israel. In some cases, more especially within the far right in Europe, it is the source of antagonism to Israel; in other cases, more especially among Arabs, antagonism towards Israel has given rise to a kind of secondary antagonism towards Jews.

It is important for people who are critical of Israel to be aware of these differences. Anti-Semites are always the enemy. (Even when they have shifted their antagonism towards Jews to antagonism towards Arabs.) And it seems to me that people who try to brand all critics if Israel as "anti-Semites" are in fact acting in a way that actually promotes anti-Semitism, and in some cases consciously so, since that is a good way of making it harder for Jews in the diaspora to be openly critical of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 07:11 AM

There is no such thing as a Jewish race any more than there is an Arabic race, a white race, a Black race, there is only a human race.
Even though ethnically Jewish people tend to marry other ethnically Jewish people the evidence suggests that Jewish people in a given area are more closely related to non Jews there than they are to Jews from other parts of the world. This does not of cause prevent the Cohen line evidence being true it just means that the hole concept of race is pretty well meaningless.
When occasionally asked for my "Ethnicity" (a euphemism for race used in certain official forms here in the UK)I'm very tempted to put left-handed, which is as valid as any other characteristic,to base a "race" on.

All the best PP

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 06:45 AM

Antisemitism (why retype what I have written earlier)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 03:12 AM

Raedwulf - interesting definition of Judaist. I always thought of him as a scientist devoted to the study of Jewish culture, language, literature &c. (Judaistics) So it is commonly used in the scientific circles around here.

Don - wonderful posts, especially about the argumentum ad hominem. Here in unlucky Germany antisemitic is used as a bat to immediately knock down the slightest critics against any person or institution being Jewish. We had our examples during the last polls.

The term Anti-Semitism concerning only the Jews seems to be coined in Europe, because the Jews for centuries were the only Semites living in European surroundings (the last Arabs in Spain were kicked out centuries ago).

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: michaelr
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:48 AM

Fred -- ROTFLMAO!

LH -- your post is, as usual, well-reasoned and to the point. Israel and its powerful supporters have tried for decades to use the "anti-semitic" smokescreen to deflect criticism of their policies. And DG is right about that.

Can I say that again?

GD is right about that!

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: musicmick
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:36 AM

I hope we dont have to go over this again and again. The misinformation about Jews and their "common" belief is as continuous a lie as there exists in history. Ill informed non-jews have been more than willing to believe the most prepostorous chaserai from grinding up the bones of Gentile children to make matzoh to the suggestion that Israel knew about the 9/11 attack in advance but withheld the information to inflame Americans against the Arabs. Here are a few facts (not that it will make any difference to many).
The Jews are an ancient people who have survived, as a culture, because they have not assimilated into the various societies that have housed them in their exile, which we call diaspora. There is a tribal religion that unites the people but, unlike modern religions, ours is not a requirement for tribal membership. Even our bible is more a historical record than a litany of faith. Comparing Jews to Christians or Moslems is invalid. A Christian, for example, is someone who believes in the divinity of Christ. If he does not hold this belief, he ceases to be a Christian. A Jew is defined by birth and liniage. Think of a jew as you would a Navajo or a Maori.
Critsism of the Israeli government is not, in itself, anti-Semetic. Lots of Jews critisize the government. Lots of Israelis critisize the Prime Minister and the Knesset every day. However, if you critisize Israel for their very existense, I would suspect that you are anti-Jewish or anti-Semetic (both are acceptable)

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 12:28 AM

GUEST,New York City, I'm willing to take artbrooks' word that the New York Sun is not a credible source. There isn't any need for me to make a long distance phone call to check out something I've already accepted as a probability.

Regarding credibility, based on what I saw in their "about us" page, I don't have any reason to think that the Campus Watch website I linked to isn't credible, although the article they posted from the Sun may not be credible.

Personally, I think it's possible that Santorum entertained the idea just long enough for someone with better political sense than he has to talk him out of it. So I'm not convinced that there was never any truth to the story. But it really doesn't matter much in the long run if nobody's going to be trying to introduce such legislation anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 07:30 PM

DG, I think I agree with some of what you're saying here, but I guess you didn't see my earlier post, which did attempt to answer your question. It's not correct to say Jews don't have a common genetic denominator. A recent study (I know I should provide a reference, but I don't have it offhand and don't have the time to look for it) looked at the Y chromosomes of Jewish men who identified themselves as Kohanim. These are the descendants of the high priests (considered to be descendants of Moses' brother Aaron, the first Kohen), who still have special privileges and obligations in the synagogue service. In Jewish tradition the status of Kohen is passed from father to son. In biology, a man's Y chromosome comes from his father, while his X chromosome comes from his mother. The study showed that nearly all of these men had a specific marker on their Y chromosome which was not seen in other Jews or in non-Jews. This suggests that all these men, who were selected on the basis of a belief that they were all descendants of Aaron, were in fact descended from a common male ancestor.   

This certainly does not prove that all Jews are genetically related; of course they are not. But as I mentioned above, a very large proportion of people who identify themselves as Jews base that identification on a common ancestral heritage. It's not exclusively based on choice. And for the Nazis, at least, their attacks on Jews were not based on a person's religious choice at all. Many Christians died in concentration camps because they had a Jewish parent or grandparent. (In fact, there was a persistent rumor that Adolf Hitler's father, Alois, was the illegitimate son of a Jewish man named Frankenberger. The rumor was persistently denied, but Frankenberger did make regular payments to Hitler's grandmother's family. For more on this, I'd recommend the fascinating book For Your Own Good: Hidden Cruelty in Child-Rearing and the Roots of Violence, by Swiss psychiatrist Alice Miller.)

For the record, I'm not a Kohen, despite my name. My grandfather's name was Kolchevni; he changed it when he came to America. The popular belief is that officials at Ellis Island changed people's names; in fact, most people changed their names to ones that they thought would sound more "American" and less "European".

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 05:54 PM

Also, if this country ever passes a law preventing anybody from criticizing anything, and if it isn't immediately
rescinded by the Supreme Court, then that's all she wrote, folks!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 05:48 PM

Calling someone "anti-Semitic" if they criticize the govenment of Israel, or calling someone "unpatriotic" or "un-American" if they criticize the Bush Administration is an example of the argumentum ad hominem--which is to say, an attempt to draw attention away from an assertion by attacking the person who makes the assertion.   It, in no way, refutes the assertion itself. This is a diversionary tactic and should be met with the contempt it deserves.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 05:33 PM

CarolC,

There are few people here in NYC who take the NY Sun to be a serious news source. I don't know anyone who has ever bought it more than once; me included. My local newstand doesn't even bother carrying it.

Don't you think that if this was a serious story, it might have made it into at least one legitimate newspaper.

Why don't you call Santorum's office. I did and they said the whole thing is nonsense.

And that's why you can only find this story on uncredible websites.

There are websites that offer proof that Elvis is alive and working at a 7/11 in Mississippi. There are other websites that think Saadam was a great humanitarian. Just because you read it on the Internet does not mean it's true.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 02:15 PM

This is just semantics---antisemantics ! ;-) ***SMILE*** **little joke** (Hell, I didn't think it'd be THAT little !!)

But seriously folks, antisemitism is what defines me as a Jew.

By that I mean that, somehow, I never had any afinity for or with the religious aspects of that faith. I never had the faith. My mother was Jewish. That is a Jew's definition of what is a Jew; if your mother wasa Jew, you are too. But in the 1940s Hitler would have put me in an oven and killed me because of that. I suspect there are arabs and white suremists who would do that too. So, I am a Jew---a Jewish person. I am also an atheist. ------ Your question was, "What is Anti-semitism?" For me, it's just a defining fact.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 01:57 PM

Ok, artbrooks. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 01:03 PM

The NY Sun has been around for less than a year, has a very limited distribution, and a viewpoint that is slanted toward the right. No, I do not.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 11:56 AM

No, no, it's the Toronto Sun that is not a real news source...

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 11:27 AM

I take it from what you've said, artbrooks, that you don't consider the New York Sun a "real news source".

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 11:24 AM

I have yet to see or hear from any real news source that Santorum has, will, or would even contemplate such legislation.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 11:16 AM

Another problem with using legislation like that for the purpose of promoting "idological diversity", is that when Fundamentalist Christian lobby groups realize that schools could lose funding if they criticize or discriminate against Pagans, they'll lobby against it pretty strenuously.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 10:27 AM

"....That's because it's all a lie, made up by some anti-Semite..."

WHAT IS AN ANTI-SEMITE?! A prick Republican wants to generate some campaign money from the Jews so he proposes illegal crapola, and suddenly the 'anti-semites' are spreading lies? This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Santorum is a money-grubbing whore acting on some fat-cat's behalf, and anyone who opposes him is an 'anti-semite', which is something no one can define. Screw that. I want to know WHY someone who opposes Santorum's un-American activity is an anti-semite.

I suspect I'll never get a clear answer on this because then the whole thing would be de-mystified, and people who have CHOSEN the Jewish belief system would no longer have the option of falling back on the 'race card'. Or so it seems. Jews CHOOSE to worship in a certain way and they don't deserve special treatment because of it. They are not a 'race', they do not have a common genetic denominator, and criticizing a Jew is not anti-semitic or racist. You are not branded with your mother's religion, and free will does exist. Guess I reached my own conclusion. Sorry for thinking out loud, but you just get tired of the nonsense sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Sam L
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 10:26 AM

Amos, I think you'll find that after the Hearst kidnapping, the U.S. severed all diplomatic ties to the Symbionese, in Symbonia.

I don't think any measure like that will stand, some people would transgress on principle alone, even some Jews, even some semites. But I could be wrong, I also don't think Bush can get re-elected, I really doubt it. I'll be very surprised.

   But an antidote is against dote. A hort may have a cohort. I went to bed at a godly hour, and now sit here with my clothes all shevelled, this place I shared with my requited love is in a total state of array.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 11:19 PM

DG is drawing notice to a form of political correctness that's been around for quite a few decades, that's all, and I think most of us know what it is...

It is that people are frequently attacked as being "anti-semitic" merely because they criticize the Israeli government's policies in Israel and the occupied territories. This has much the same impact as if they were labelled "racist" for suggesting that O.J.Simpson might possibly have murdered his wife or lied in court.

It's a fear tactic to label people in that fashion, and it is used frequently.

It causes politicians and media people in particular to be very circumspect when it comes to what they say (publicly) about Israel. It also causes police to have fear of publishing any statistic which indicates the number of urban blacks involved in certain violent crimes...although to so publish ought to be an incentive to help the blacks in urban America improve their situation, rather than to cause anyone to demonize black people. (It's mostly other blacks who are the victims of the violence.)

It's sad, and it's endemic in this society. People are afraid to call a duck a duck, if it happens to be a black duck or an Israeli duck. This is what happens when society bends over backwards to right a previous wrong, and creates a plethora of new wrongs in the process.

The emperor has no clothes, but no one is allowed to publicly say so.

Similar fear tactics are being waged against people who publicly protested the war...only they are labelled as "traitors" instead of "racists" or "anti-semites".

McCarthy used such tactics to shut people up and shut them down. So did Hitler...in the early stages. Later he just had them arrested and shot.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 10:19 PM

Here's the New York Sun article:

Universities Resist Efforts To Require Ideological Diversity On Campuses

by Timothy Starks
New York Sun
April 15, 2003

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 10:02 PM

While the Balochistan Post certainly doesn't appear to be particularly friendly to Israel, it does quote a US newspaper in its article:

"The news of the Santorum-Brownback scheme, appeared in the April 15 issue of the New York Sun, a vehemently pro-Israel neo-conservative daily published in Manhattan"

I think it would make sense for people to read the article in the New York Sun before determining whether or not the Balochistan Post article is a lie. Anyone know where we can get access to the article in the New York Sun?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 08:12 PM

We knew we shouldn't have use flammable and inflammable.

We were only trying to point out that English is a very strange language and words don't always mean what you'd think they mean. An anti-semite is not against semites any more than anti-matter is against matter. Aunty Em is not against Emily either. Antebellum is not against war. Antipasta is not....

Bev and Jerry

(Yes, we know it's Italian - don't start.)

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Metchosin
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 07:53 PM

and then again, to be even more pedantic, I could say that a load of Douglas fir on a logging truck was flammable but hardly inflammable, which does make more sense to me in context of its roots (no pun intended).*BG*

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 07:37 PM

NTDG, thanks for pointing that out. Of course, lies spread much more easily than truth. I read the article that DG linked to, and it's laughable. Unfortunately, people believe what fits their beliefs, whether it's credible or not (and I don't mean to exempt myself).

My understanding (which fits my belief system!) is that the term "anti-Semitic" originated as a euphemism, possibly to thinly disguise the fact that some people who were complaining about attacks against Jews were, in fact, Jewish. In some sense it's a nonsense word, since both Arabs and Jews are Semitic--though that wasn't as much of a consideration in the 1930's. And I suspect that even the term "Semitic" may have had pejorative connotations when it was originally used. (Hell, everything people say about other groups usually has pejorative connotations.) I once learned that the Semitic tribes were descended from Noah's son, Shem. But since that would theoretically include a third of humanity, I tend to doubt it. I don't know who originated the word "anti-Semitic", or when, or why--maybe somebody out there does.

By way of possible clarification, the answer to the question of whether Judaism is a religion, or an ethnic group, or a culture, is...yes. The vast majority of those who consider themselves Jews did not "choose" Judaism from a smorgasbord of religions. They were born to Jewish parents, who were born to Jewish parents, and so forth. (Technically, according to strict Jewish law, you are considered Jewish if your mother was Jewish. That doesn't mean, of course, that you must consider yourself Jewish...only that a Jewish religious authority would.) In that sense, Jews are an ethnic group. Now, most people who consider themselves Jews do observe Jewish religious practices, including many people who were born into other ethnic groups or grew up in other religious traditions. There is a wide variation in the extent and intensity of those religious practices, but they all draw from the same religious tradition and share some common principles, beliefs, symbols, and observances. Finally, there are a sizable number of people who consider themselves Jewish, who do not observe Jewish religious practices, but who identify with the history and culture of Judaism. For them, Judaism is a culture, not a religion.

So the answer may differ, depending on whether you're discussing who considers himself or herself Jewish, or whom an Orthodox Rabbinical court considers Jewish...or whom the Nuremberg edicts considered Jewish.

Aloha,
Mark

In my opinion, the question as to whether Jews are a "race" is a nonsense question. The concept of "race" derives from 19th century anthropologists' and historians' attempt to prove the superiority of northern European people by describing "inferior races" elsewhere in the world. Hitler carried this to an extreme.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Gareth
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 07:22 PM

Actually I rthought "anti-sematic" was an insult thrown when people start losing the logical agrument.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Metchosin
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 07:06 PM

Forum Lurker, I think inflammable and flammable are still synonymous in the UK, hence McGrath's (misunderstanding the intent?) unlike in North America, where, due to the decline in literacy, the average person was judged too thick to understand that "inflamable" printed on a gas tanker truck, might mean it could be ignited.

Hence, in Canada at least, the word "inflamable" was dropped in that instance, in preference to "flammable".

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Strupag
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 06:48 PM

And here was me always believing that Balochistan was a village near Glencoe!

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 05:16 PM

McGrath-That's not what was meant. It's simply an example of the ways in which our language no longer makes sense in context with its roots.

DG-You can criticize A Jew, based on personal matters, and only an idiot will call you an anti-Semite. If, however, you criticize a group of Jews, or even an individual Jew, on the basis of their Judaism, that does make you an anti-semite. The reason why anti-Semitism is considered racism is that most anti-Semites consider Jews a racial group.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Not the Dreaded Guest
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 05:13 PM

This thread started because Draeded Guest found some newspaper, supposedly in Pakistan, running a phony story about Rep. Rick Santorum.

It's a big fat libelous lie!

Search the Internet and you can find this story on a bunch of far-right anti-Semitic and racist websites. You can also find it on Islamist, and Arab anti-Israel websites.

Thing is, though, you won't find the story on the website of any reputable news organization, left, center or right. You won't find anything about it on Rick Santorum's own website. That's because it's all a lie, made up by some anti-Semite and passed around by others of that bent.

Just because you can provide a link to something on the Internet, does not mean it has a grain of truth to it.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 04:49 PM

"It's kind of like flammable and inflammable."

Hardly so. "Flammable" and "inflammable" mean exactly the same thing. Whatever they might mean, "semitic" and "anti-semitic" do not mean the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 04:34 PM

Amos, with Google, everyone can be Superman ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 04:04 PM

And by the way, English is a very strange language. Anti-semite does not mean against semites. Compare the definition of semite you posted with the definition of anti-semite posted by artbrooks. It's kind of like flammable and inflammable.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 04:01 PM

DG:

Criticizing a Jew does not make one an anti-semite. Criticizing Judaism does not make one an anti-semite. Criticizing Jews as a group does make one an anti-semite. You can substitute the appropriate words for Jew and anti-semite and this holds true for any group of individuals.

Anti-semitism, however, connotes a lot more than mere criticism. It includes such acts as not allowing Jews to live in certain areas, stay in certain hotels or join certain organizations. It includes hate literature or speech against Jews as a group. And it can even include the murder of people simply because they are Jews. Here again, you can make the appropriate substitutions and apply it to any group of individuals.

Criticizing Israel or its government has nothing to do with anti-semitism unless that criticism is directed at the country or its government simply because it is Jewish.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 04:01 PM

"Anti-Jew = racist."? Yes, Dreaded Guest, that is racist.