BS: What is Anti-Semitism?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 06 May 03 - 03:06 PM

DougR-The fact that you immediately assume Little Hawk was talking about Iraq suggests to me a guilty conscience. I think that you can find many cases where American armed forces have used terror tactics, including our wars (Vietnam springs to mind) and occupations.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 May 03 - 03:40 PM

Vietnam? 'In the recent past'?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 06 May 03 - 08:30 PM

Geez, people. You want recent terrorism? This is what the White House did when people were demanding a Sept 11 probe. Cheney even threatened to nuke an American city if we 'took resources away from the war against terrorism':

Admitted American Terrorism

Simple fear-based conditioning. Put an electric grid under a box full of mice, randomly feed them shocks, and they quit responding. They shut down psychologically. That is what has been done to the citizens of the US. We are surrounded by empty concentration camps just waiting for us, our leaders have passed legislation to kill us for any reason whatsoever, yet we just sit and let the monsters move among us. We have been terrorized into a state of near catalepsy.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 06 May 03 - 09:45 PM

...Eighty-one nations are represented among the World Trade Center's dead - Israel is not one of these nations even though approximately 1200 of its citizens worked there. As if that wasn't enough, an instant messaging firm in Israel, named Odigo, received warnings about the towers two hours before the attacks. Everyone who points out the wrongdoings of Israel is immediately labeled 'anti-Semitic'...

Story

So, is this true? 1,200 Israelis worked in the WTC, but they all stayed home on Sept 11? I still don't know what 'anti-semitic' means, which is why I asked on the first post of this thread, but this...this makes it look like Israel (in conjuction with US authorities) did the 9-11 job.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 06 May 03 - 11:30 PM

Dreaded Guest is propagating vicious, anti-Semitic lies that have been dispelled many times.

Here is the Urban Legends website on it.

Contrary to the vicious, anti-Semitic lies of the Dreaded Guest, there were Jews and Israelis among the dead on 9/11. I knew two of them personally.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 06 May 03 - 11:54 PM

Yeah, well I knew the Odigo thing had been questioned, but this article was the first time I saw mention that no Israelis died in the attack. Not Jews...Israelis. I'm just asking, bud. I'd have to see an article verifying Israelis died in the WTC now, because how could the writer of the piece I linked to make that claim if it weren't true? Pretty bold. Pretty amazing, too, if there were 1,200 working there (Israelis) and none died. I have no knowledge on this one way or the other. I'd need to see the proof to refute this. But I tend to doubt that ALL the 1,200 people of ANY group would get the warning, so you're probably right. But show me an article or something. Put up or shut up. And asking about this doesn't make me an anti-semite, does it?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: DougR
Date: 07 May 03 - 01:11 AM

Forum Lurker: " Many examples?" Perhaps you would cite one!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 07 May 03 - 01:20 AM

Israeli killed in WTC

OK, so one Israeli died in the WTC from what I can find. The link above is as credible as your Urban Legends thing, but this link does refer to several pertinent articles in NYC and Jerusalem papers. All those Israelis working in the WTC and only one died?

Itzak Rabin was killed right after he apologized for Israel's hand in helping to create Hamas. The Israeli govt engages in terrorism, same as the US govt. The Israeli secret police knew 9-11 was on the way and warned the appropriate people. Either that or Israelis tend to oversleep and not take their jobs very seriously. I find it rather unfriendly that the Mossad DIDN'T WARN THE 3,000 WHO DIED, TOO.

And I'm not bashing Jews...just another fascistic govt dabbling in social engineering via terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: DougR
Date: 07 May 03 - 01:52 AM

Dreaded Guest: someday you may prove to be Jesus Christ returned to judge all who remain on earth. If that proves to be the case, I will be most regretfull for what I am about to say. But friend, I do think you are a bit overboard on your theories. If you are serious, and really believe most of the stuff you post, I am a bit concerned for you. Did you see the movie, "A Beautiful Mind?" I can't help but wonder ...

I don't question for a minute your right to express your ideas, but I can't imagine anyone (excepting possibly Bobert) accepting them.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: JudyR
Date: 07 May 03 - 03:25 AM

I'm suffering from mind fog due to illness and I haven't got the patience to sit and re-read or go through all the transmutations of this thread. So forgive me if I miss all the points.

As a Jew who is antiwar and anti-Sharon, I have never once been accused of being a self-hating Jew, and -- at least where I live, in L.A. in America, and sometimes on the web -- I have to say I rarely hear of anti-Israel people being accused of being anti-semitic. I feel a bit sensitive about overuse of the term "anti-Israel," and prefer "anti-Sharon." Perhaps it's more prevalent in Europe.

McGrath, you make a good point when you say: "...one of the effects of the claim that opposition to Israel does imply anti-semitism is to make it easier for anti-semitism to crawl back into the light. It blurs the distinctions, and that, I would suggest, is one reason why the claim is often made."

I had been just about to post that when anti-semitism began to rear its ugly head all over Europe again a year or so ago, and especially France (as it does periodically every 30 years or so), the points were made that many of these types were blurring (is confusing too mild a word?) the Israeli position with all Jews, and their rhetoric incited the ignorant. That's how it spreads (I guess you already said it "makes it easier for anti-semitism to crawl back into the light).

And that is what becomes to me a danger whenever people talk virulently anti-Israel.   

As for Dreaded Guest, I'm afraid that "anti-Jewish" is indeed being bigoted, and I'm not going to sit and split finite points on this, whether or not it's literally "racist." As Jews on here have tried to explain, Judaism is more than a religion -- always has been as much about a culture and ethnicity. Thus, someone like me who hasn't been to temple regularly since she was a child, and considers herself agnostic, still is "a Jew." And yeah, if you're getting prohibited from buying a house or staying in a hotel because of your last name or appearance, it wouldn't make a whole hell of a lot of difference whether one "chose" to be a Jew or not.   

Forum Lurker and Bev and Jerry and others already made the point: criticizing "A" Jew isn't anti-semitic, criticizing Jews as a group, is (forgive me if we've already moved on from this...but I do think these distinctions have alluded some people).

Dreaded Guest: Your last bit, protesting that you are "not bashing Jews," but suggesting a link between the World Trade Center and Jews (even if you "meant" Israelis), just veered way across the line I draw for myself. If you're not anti-semitic yet, you're on the path that many of ducks walk.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 03 - 08:40 AM

I'm glad to hear that you've not had to deal with any negative repercussions from your anti-Sharon stance, JudyR. Maybe it's not so much a problem where you live, or maybe it's not as much of a problem now as it used to be.

Here's what Marc H. Ellis, Professor of American and Jewish Studies at Baylor University had to say about the problem in 2001:

On The Rabbis and the Future of Jewish Life

Subject: Attention: Joe Offer
From: GUEST,Kol Baseder (Lo)
Date: 07 May 03 - 09:03 AM

I have no problem with rational debates about Israel, anti-Semitism, etc. However, respect for free speech does not mean that you need to allow Mudcat to be used by anti-Semites, or any other kind of hate-mongers, to spread their vicious, and disproven, lies.

Case in point, Dreaded Guest and his posts regarding Jews, Israelis and the World Trade Center on 9/11.

I, for one, find it very disturbing that you allow Mudcat for such purposes.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 May 03 - 10:33 AM

Kol,
most, if not all, of us just don't take Dreaded Guest serious any longer. When (s)he came first here, a couple of times I have looked at the links (s)he has given for backup and whenever I was in a position to judge I found them full of lies, distortions and inaccuracies. Since then I have stopped reading anything (s)he links to for the level of garbage is so high that I don't want to look for the occasional nugget of solid information hidden there.

Mostly, I even do not read the posts of DG. Most of us have given up answering to her/him at all. That should not be seen as consent, just as a lack of want of interaction with DG.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 07 May 03 - 11:10 AM

There you go again. I began this thread asking what anti-semitism is. Really wanting to know. I've been careful to not pass judgement, and when I finally did, it was to criticize the Nazi Ariel Sharon. Not criticizing Israelis, not criticizing Jews, but criticizing a murdering terrorist. And now I'm an anti-semite. So my ever-evolving meaning of 'anti-semite' now means someone who criticizes a mass-murderer who claims to be a Jew.

And I run across an article which uses the term 'anti-semitic' and quote it here, and THAT makes me anti-semitic. Geez.

What I've learned so far on this thread:
1) The dictionary describes Arabs as being semites, too, yet Israelis kill Arabs and then criticize anyone who questions this murder.
2) No one (not even Jews) can explain WHY they must be Jewish. I say it's a belief system, but some say they have no choice in the matter...they're born that way. They call themselves a race. But they're not...it's a VOLUNTARY belief system. Calling someone anti-semitic may be a way of hiding behind the 'race card'.
3) To rise in certain parts of the Jewish religion you must have certain genetic qualifications. Just like in Hitler's Aryan Germany. No one will discuss this topic further. Seems touchy. Seems hypocritical, too.
4) Someone said 'anti-semitism' is an example of an ad hominum argument...meant to divert attention away from the matter under discussion. This seems to be the case, because I just mentioned an article about no Israelis dying in the WTC even though 1,200 worked there. I asked if it was true (innocent and sincere question), and I was attacked as anti-semitic by people who haven't looked into it. Couple of people tried to equate Jews with Israelis, but they know better.

It seems, in adding this all up, that Jews are reluctant to let 'outsiders' get too close. Hence the 'anti-semitic' label for anone who asks questions. That's all I can conclude after 150+ posts and responses. Couldn't really care less what any of you lobotomites think of my analysis process. It's turning out to be pretty ugly, though. Look at the 4 points above again. Not pretty at all.

Another 9-11 / Israeli link, for what it's worth

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 07 May 03 - 11:27 AM

No, its argumentum ad hominy that's culturally based

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 May 03 - 01:43 PM

GUEST,Kol Baseder (Lo), it is that nature of Mudcat to allow free and open debate. Any suppression of viewpoints is, obviously, censorship, and apart from deletion of personal insults and abuse, it simply isn't practiced here. It is essentially in the same spirit with which the American Civil Liberties Union endeavors to defend freedom of speech for all individuals and groups, no matter how offensive the individual or group may be. You cannot have true freedom of speech if you allow suppression of unpopular viewpoints. In fact, in this day and age, that direct path to tyranny is like the many-headed hydra, and must be fought wherever it attempts to appear.

If you spend much time around Mudcat, you become familiar with the viewpoints of the people who post here regularly, and you can pick and chose who you feel are worth reading. There are some who have viewpoints diametrically opposed to my own whom I read, because their posts seem to be well thought out and they quote their sources. I am sufficiently open-minded (although, I am sure there are those here who would disagree) be willing to changing my views if they can convinced that I am wrong and they are right. Thus, one learns, and I am always open to learning.

But there are others who are ill-informed, or whose beliefs are so locked in that the best they can do is sit back and make snide remarks or try to refute a well-reasoned post by slapping a label on the poster with no attempt to offer an equally well-reasoned counter-argument. And, of course there are a few like Dreaded Guest who are locked into posting long screeds about fancied worldwide conspiracy theories who are a total waste of time to ever bother reading. Some time back, I wasted a ridiculous amount of time and energy trying to set this individual straight about something I have first-hand knowledge of and s/he only read about on some conspiracy web site, but to no avail. So I no longer bother with DG's posts, neither to read them, nor (especially) to waste my time answering them.

Apart from this, I find that I have learned a great deal by reading and participating in these threads. There are some very knowledgeable people here.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: AggieD
Date: 07 May 03 - 03:57 PM

What DG fails to understand is that genetics aside Jews in common with other ancient nations have 'acquired' memories. I am sure it is very difficult for anyone who does not come from a background where they know their identity with certainty, can understand how it feels to be a part of any ancient nation, however it may be defined. He and many others obviously have no idea how it feels to be dispossessed, after all the Jews were thrown out of a much larger area than the one that is now called Israel. It is very trendy in these modern times for people to talk about the rights of the Aborigine, Native American, etc., but despite the Jewish nation being dispossessed for thousands of years we are still having to justify the fact that we want a land where we feel we can belong without being killed & tortured for our beliefs. Most Jewish Israelis are perfectly happy to live alongside non-Jewish Israelis. They simply want peace & to know that they won't be killed when they are going about their ordinary lives. Has anyone ever thought that it has become quite trendy to give other disposed nations their lands & rights back, so what is different for the Jews?

Jews all over the world raise money that benefits all Israelis, no matter whether they be Palestinian or not. This fact seems to be kept very quiet when Jews are being berated.

As for Anti-semitism, that is a many headed monster. It is just as relevant against a single person, as against a Nation. Surely it is not anti-semitic to disagree with a person simply because they are Jewish? However to launch an attack against any person or nation only because they are Jewish must surely be anti-semitism. Also it would be considered as racist if derogatory remarks were made against anyone with a black skin, despite the fact that their ancestors did not come from any particular 'race', but would have come from the huge continent that is Africa. So is it any less racist to discriminate against a Jew, or make remarks that could be deemed to be racist, as opposed to a black person?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 07 May 03 - 05:24 PM

Seems you folks who question me just prove my points. AggieD, you talk about the extended group that is the Jews, then you talk about criticism of Jews being racist. So, by criticizing a mass-murderer like Sharon I criticize all Jews by extension, and then, by extension of the insane argument that Jews are a race, I am a 'racist' for criticizing Sharon. Incredible.

I admire the tenacity with which Jews present their single-minded arguments, but they are no longer just THEIR arguments. Israel is now benefitting from the US presence in the Mid East, and Americans are going to demand answers. And screaming 'anti-semitic' at Americans who question won't help the situation. Find some new tactics.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 03 - 05:48 PM

Has anyone ever thought that it has become quite trendy to give other disposed nations their lands & rights back, so what is different for the Jews?

Can you cite examples of places where it has become the "trend" to displace people in order to give native peoples their land back?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 07 May 03 - 06:58 PM

DougR-I don't know where you got the quote "many examples," but if you are referring to American terrorism, I will mention the napalm bombings in Cambodia, the American occupation of the Phillipines, the entire history of U.S. dealings with Amerindians, and "Operation Shock and Awe" as being terroristic, all by the definition of terrorism in the Patriot Act.

DG-You almost had us convinced that maybe you weren't an anti-semite, and then you had to go and ruin it with a stereotyping sentence: "I admire the tenacity with which Jews present their single-minded arguments." While criticizing Sharon doesn't make you a bigot, lumping all Jews into a single block certainly does. To clarify a few misconceptions you have, I will state that in no aspect of Judaism is a Jewish bloodline necessary. Even the Ultra-Orthodox will accept converts. While Judaism as a religion is a voluntary belief system, the ethnic and cultural traditions associated with Judaism are, like all traditions, hereditary.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 07 May 03 - 07:57 PM

So stereotyping makes you an anti-semite? Such crap. Jews WANT to be lumped into a group. Look at the responses just from this thread for proof. And you can't ask to be considered a group and then feign offense when a certain amount of stereotyping results. And you can't advance to certain offices within the Jewish church unless your pedigree is right. Racism.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: JudyR
Date: 07 May 03 - 08:30 PM

Carol C, I did read that article and found it thought-provoking, but don't have time to go into it this minute. I hear what the Rabbi is saying.

But on the other matters, as liberal (and even radical) as I have been in my day, I can sniff out anti-semitism when I hear it.

I think maybe I'll heed the advice of some others on here, and stop taking DG seriously. As I said before, his duck walk and talk is enough for me.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 May 03 - 08:54 PM

CarolC: Rhodesia/Zimbabwi (whites), Kosovo (Serbians), Vietnam (the ethnic Chinese), Northern Iraq (the Arabs by the Kurds), Northern Poland (Germans)...want more?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 03 - 08:59 PM

Yes, artbrooks. Can you point me to some background for the places you've mentioned please?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 May 03 - 09:12 PM

I could, but won't. All of these are very well known.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 03 - 09:19 PM

Ok artbrooks. I'll see what I can find myself. Would you be willing to give up your home so the American Indians can have their land back?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 07 May 03 - 09:44 PM

"...I can SNIFF OUT anti-semitism when I HEAR it." I think that's my favorite definition so far. Kind of sums up the logic behind the slur.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 03 - 10:12 PM

Ok, Artbrooks. I haven't looked into all of your examples but I did check out the Northern Poland one. I think you have misunderstood my question.

AggieD said, "it has become quite trendy to give other disposed nations their lands & rights back". Using the words "has become" suggests a new or recently started trend. The expulsion in Northern Poland was in 1945. I was asking her for examples of situations that support her contention that such practices have "become quite trendy", rather than places where it used to be trendy. I'll check out your other examples as time allows, but I don't think the Northern Poland example supports what AggieD was saying.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 May 03 - 10:36 PM

CarolC: my field of choice is Early Modern European history...and 1945 is recent. The Vietnam one began with unification in 1975-most of the boat people were/are ethnic Chinese. Kosovo was about 1999 to present and the other two are happening right now.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 03 - 10:44 PM

Thanks artbrooks.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 07 May 03 - 11:02 PM

Am I an anti-semite for posting this?:

ATHENS – Nothing could be better designed to undermine the coalition's promise that Iraq's oil should benefit its own people than Israel's proclaimed wish to "reopen" a long-unused pipeline from Iraq's Kirkuk oil fields to Israel's Mediterranean port of Haifa...

Story

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 May 03 - 11:12 PM

DG, as just about everyone who has felt it worthwhile has told you, criticizing Israel is not anti-semitism. Israelis feel just as free to criticize their government as Americans do theirs, and American, British, French, Russian, Canadian, and so forth Jews are just as willing to do so...and please don't waste any more time on the "concentration camps are ready and waiting" BS.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 08 May 03 - 01:23 AM

Why do you give advice but no definition? Still no precise definition of anti-semitism. That's because Jews WANT it that way.

But evasions on this topic won't stretch much further. Americans just died so Israel could steal Iraqi oil? Not acceptable.

America is now doing clean-up work in Israel's backyard. I'm pretty tolerant compared to the 'Jews killed Jesus' crowd around me, but once the body bags start coming back here because Israel wanted free oil, no one'll be able to keep a lid on things. Maybe that's the way someone wants it.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 08 May 03 - 01:32 AM

DG-You see, persistent stereotyping like "Jews WANT to lumped together" or "That's because Jews WANT it that way" aren't going to get your claims taken seriously. If you want a definition, I can give you one, and if I change it later, it's because I just finished writing a term paper and it's well past my normal bedtime at the moment. Anti-Semitism is holding and/or stating views prejudiced against Jews as a group. Now, one last time, for the record, there are no positions in the Jewish clergy which require a particular heredity. There aren't all that many positions in the Jewish clergy at all: The rabbi, and possibly the cantor and the sofer. None of these positions require any heredity, merely being a practicing Jew properly trained in that profession. I would tell you to get your facts straight before posting, but then we'd never hear from you again. Wait, I've got an idea.

Get your facts straight before posting.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: AggieD
Date: 08 May 03 - 05:46 AM

It just goes to prove my point about people not having the acquired memories to build their lives on, DG & CarolC are such excellent examples of this, that we should all pity the fact that they are unable to see beyond propaganda & downright lies that are spread by other people with meglomania tendencies.

To those of us that take note & build upon what has happend in the past 1945 is very modern history. This is why the Jews will survive over many thousands of years to come, when those people without the conviction & beliefs will just fade away.

DG Rabbis etc. have to train at some form of seminary/college before they become a Rabbi, in exactly the same way as bona fide priests do. The trouble with so many of your southern american religious leaders is that they are simply untrained meglomaniacs, who have never been through any formal training, and use their vituperative minds to drone out filth against those who are different from them.

My word of the day is Meglomania!!

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 08 May 03 - 06:50 AM

Give me a trained meglomaniac any time.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: AggieD
Date: 08 May 03 - 07:31 AM

At least a trained meglomaniac knows how to put his/her thoughts in reasoned order before implementing them ;)


Aggie

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 08 May 03 - 10:40 AM

Aggie and Lurker,

You're both trying to defend a corrupt status quo. Go back a hundred posts or so Lurker to the post about genetic requirements within the religion. It's there and I checked into it and its true. Jews require a geneology for certain offices. And go back to the first post for the definition of 'semite'. That's where I began, with the dictionary definition. Arabs are semites, too, yet you choose to narrow it to just include Jews. I find it odd the Jewsish church doesn't censure members who feel free to scream 'anti-semite' at the drop of a hat. Strong control in all areas except that one? You can't eat a ham sandwich but you can blast thousands of well-meaning preachers when you feel like it? You have to follow thousands of 'rules', but you can make up your own definition of anti-semitism as the need arises? Seems the church ENCOURAGES confusion on this.

This thread made me think of Clarence Thomas, for some reason. During his confirmation hearings in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Thomas couldn't answer some of the standard legal questions asked of anyone in his position. Biden and Kennedy and the rest were pretty shocked, but they persevered and asked the questions, and Thomas eventually said he would have to 'apply natural law' to one of the hypothetical situations described. Then he explained natural law as being this vague thing he could 'sniff out when he heard it'...something like that. I mean, he was imminently unqualified to sit on the Supreme Court, yet there he was, saying 200+ years of legal precedent took a back seat to his gut feeling. Pitiful. Biden should have gaveled the proceedings closed and asked for the next candidate. But instead they went on until finally Thomas said he was beginning to think he was in a 'high tech lynching'. He played the race card. Too stupid to get ahead without that being placed on the fast-track, but smart enough to know he'd get special treatment by pointing out he was black. And to their eternal discredit, the Committee gave in. And Thomas has never written an opinion to my knowledge...he just votes like Rehnquist tells him to, and Clarence Thomas appointed a Nazi to the White House because American Senators didn't stick to the principle of equality.

For some reason, that's what this 'anti-semitism' talk makes me think of. Jews seem to want a blank check they can pull out any time they're at a loss in an argument, and 'anti-semite' is that check. And if Jews are free to make up their own definition of anti-semite, then so am I. Go back to the definition of 'semite' in the first post. It includes Arabs. So if you are not AS concerned about the Arabs being murdered at Guantanamo as you are about Jews dying, then you are an anti-semite. And that's not hair-splitting. It's literal. Figured out by someone who didn't have the benefit of rabbinical brainwashing.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 03 - 10:54 AM

DG and CarolC are such excellent examples of this, that we should all pity the fact that they are unable to see beyond propaganda & downright lies

AggieD, you are making quite a lot of assumptions about me. You don't know enough about me to make a statement like that. Do you think I hold the same opinions as Dreaded Guest? If so, why? If you can show me where I have endorsed propaganda and downright lies, I might revise what I'm about to say.

I suspect that you are one of those people who attribute the actions of one person in a particular group to all of the members of that group. Oh, wait! That makes you a bigot and/or a racist!

Has anyone ever thought that it has become quite trendy to give other disposed nations their lands & rights back, so what is different for the Jews?

I actually find this statement by you to be quite offensive on many levels. First of all, it's an incredibly glib way of talking about situations that involve a lot of pain and suffering for a lot of people.

Secondly, it assumes that the peope you are talking to endorse the instances where people have been displaced to return earlier inhabitants to their former homes.

Thirdly, not only does it assume that we have done that, but also that we do it in order to be "trendy".

Are you of the opinion that all Gentiles are callous, shallow, idiots?

And lastly, if a group of people showed up in your neighborhood with their holy book and told you and your neighbors that they had a claim to your land by virtue of having been chased off it several thousand years ago, and they offered their holy book as proof that God meant for them to have it, would you willingly give it up? I seriously doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 May 03 - 12:09 PM

Pssssst... "My word of the day is Meglomania!!" AggieD, if it's your word for the day, it might be a good idea to spell it correctly.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 08 May 03 - 02:04 PM

DG-No, for the last time, there are no positions within the Jewish clergy that require a particular descent. If you have any RELIABLE evidence to the contrary, feel free to post it. If it's just the same anti-Semitic BS you have been spouting all over this thread, don't post it. The reason "The Jewish church" doesn't censure people is that there is none. Judaism is a non-hierarchical religion, and possesses no secular authority outside of Israel, and only limited therein. As far as your definition of anti-semite goes, think about the fact that the English language is not internally consistent. Flammable means able to ignite, and the prefix in- usually means a negation. Hence, "in-flammable" means readily ignited?! Likewise, a Semite is someone of Semitic ethnicity, deriving from the Middle East. Anti- means opposed to, but anti-Semite means a person bigoted against Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: AggieD
Date: 08 May 03 - 04:10 PM

OK now the gloves are off guys.

Ebbie I was not aware that Mudcat was also a spelling test. I have seen far worse, I aplogise OOOOOPPS apologise!!!!!!

DG you are talking out of your backside, as FL has said. All you need to do to become a Rabbi in a SYNAGOGUE, not a Church is to go to college & qualify, then as a priest is qualified, & does not need to be a descendent of any other line of christian priests, you may lead a community. If you are thinking of Cohanim or Levys, yes these are descendents of a certain line. These people are not necessarily modern Rabbis. In the UK our Chief Rabbi, comes from an ordinary home, went to a main stream school, where his fellow students were the usual mixture from society. It was his choice to become a Rabbi, & was then elected to his office, because he is good at his job. He in fact started his career in our local synagogue as the headmaster of our religious classes, but I suppose you will say that he must be an excellent indoctrinator, or some other crap.

CarolC I can assure you that I have a very open mind on the situation that now stands in the Middle East. I detest as much as anyone else the murder of innocents, & I have had many arguments with fellow Jews about the injustices that happen. However I am just pointing out to you that Jews, need the right, the same as Kurds, Christians, Moslems, Native Americans, Black or any other people of this world, to know that simply because of their religion or origin or skin colour they will not be persecuted & murdered & need a place where they feel safe. When was the last time you looked at a friend's parent & saw the tattoo mark from a concentration camp on their arm & swore that never again would that be allowed to happen?

As I have said before, all most Israelis & I don't just mean Jews, want is to live in peace.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 03 - 04:27 PM

CarolC I can assure you that I have a very open mind on the situation that now stands in the Middle East.

I'm glad to hear it.

I detest as much as anyone else the murder of innocents, & I have had many arguments with fellow Jews about the injustices that happen.

I'm glad to hear this as well.

However I am just pointing out to you that Jews, need the right, the same as Kurds, Christians, Moslems, Native Americans, Black or any other people of this world, to know that simply because of their religion or origin or skin colour they will not be persecuted & murdered & need a place where they feel safe.

What makes you think I don't already know this?

When was the last time you looked at a friend's parent & saw the tattoo mark from a concentration camp on their arm & swore that never again would that be allowed to happen?

When I was 16 years old. It was my boyfriend's grandmother's tattoo.

As I have said before, all most Israelis & I don't just mean Jews, want is to live in peace.

What makes you think I don't already know this?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: DougR
Date: 08 May 03 - 05:27 PM

Aggie: I don't believe that peace will ever come between the Palestinians and the Israelis until one or the other of them wins the peace through force. Then the winner will dictate the terms of peace. I said that in this forum long ago, and nothing has happened that causes me to change my mind.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Burke
Date: 08 May 03 - 06:04 PM

DG has been harping for a definition in this whole thread that I don't think has been answered. I suggest that when you want a term defined you look the actual word up, not it's components. You may get some of the entomology for your term by breaking it up, but not its real definition. The English language is not always logical. It's not the Jews who hijacked a term. The English language needed a term to describe events happening in the world & anti-semitism is the word coined. I doubt that whoever coined the usage in the 19th century gave a single thought to the fact that Jew<>Semite or that there were semitic people who are not Jewish.

From the Oxford English Dictionary: anti-Semitism Theory, action, or practice directed against the Jews. Hence anti-Semite, one who is hostile or opposed to the Jews; anti-Semitic.

These are the usages cited by OEC
1881 Athenæum 3 Sept. 305/2 The author, apparently an anti-Semite. Ibid., Anti-Semitic literature is very prosperous in Germany. 1882 Athenæum 11 Feb. 184/1 In these days of anti-Semitism. 1935 Economist 24 Aug. 366/1 The Nazi Party stalwarts..have all been leading an anti-Semitic, anti-Catholic, anti-Protestant..crusade. 1941 J. S. HUXLEY Uniqueness of Man ii. 50 Germanic nationalism on the one hand and anti-Semitism on the other.

DG, if the word was not anti-Semitism, we'd still have a different one to describe anti Jewishness that is based not on religious belief but some sort of heredity. We'd have it & need it because the phenomena exists. I don't know why you have such a problem with the idea that most of the English speaking world has a common understanding of this word. If you want to communicate with others you use words with the common terminology.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 May 03 - 06:22 PM

Burke: the word "anti-semitism" has been defined on this thread more than once...by me in the fifth response, for one, with a direct quote from Webster's New World College Dictionary. DG has his/her own agenda and really isn't interested in facts.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 May 03 - 06:30 PM

"peace through force. " Ah, but therein lies the difficulty, DougR. You see, I think that peace brought about by force is not peace at all. It may stifle overt dissent but it does not even begin to imply acquiescence.


AggieD, I just thought since you were making it your word for the day, you might not want to lock it into your memory in that form. The root is 'mega' - and that makes it easy to remember.:)

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 08 May 03 - 11:23 PM

What tedium. Lurker...YOU do the homework. I said the issue came up in an earlier post, I looked into it and found it had merit. The Jews give preferential treatment to certain Jews with specific genealogies. It's a fact. You sort through the posts. And Aggie, when you said the gloves were I thought you might at last type a sensible sentence (those gloves do get in the way), but its the same old gibberish full of qualifiers. Jews do THIS sometimes and THAT sometimes...blah blah blah

The fact is Israel now wants to steal Iraqi oil. That's fine, but if the oil flows to Haifa and one of my neighbors comes home in a box, this area will then think of the Jews not only as the people who killed Jesus, but also as the people who killed a local. I'm just trying to make up my mind whether Jews are wicked or not before that happens. Simple as that. And I started the discussion with a term that has always mystified me...'anti-semitism'.

Based on what I've read on this thread, I think Jews as a group are no more wicked than any other group, though perhaps more clannish and suspicious. They present themselves as a 'non-proselytizing' group but insist the mother be Jewish. lol. And then (here I go stereotyping again), I've been told all my life how intelligent Jews are, so if I can find SO MANY FLAWS in the ways they defend their belief system in this comparatively short thread, I have to wonder why so many smart people have protected such a hypocritical system for so many thousands of years. I'm personally glad a group who could produce Woody Allen and Sid Ceasar and Mel Brooks, etc have managed to survive. But the hypocrisy...it's coming down to the nut-cutting in America when the general public discovers Americans are dying for Israel's enrichment. I think American Jews are going to have to distance themselves from Israel very publicly. We all know Israel is one of the major terrorist states in the world, and before long I'm afraid 'anti-semitism' in what I guess I'd call the 'traditional' sense of the word could hit America with a vengeance. And again I say someone wants it that way. Not me, but those who would benefit financially.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 09 May 03 - 01:07 AM

DG-For the last time, Jews do not have any such preferential treatment. I have attended the Hebrew Union College school for the rabbinate, and can assure you that no such bias exists. Israel as a country has no desire to steal Iraqi oil; the concern of both the people and the government, two very different entities, is primarily security, not the economy. To even consider the idea that "Jews are wicked" shows you as a bigot. As I said before, even the Ultra-Orthodox will accept converts whose mother was not Jewish. You have not found a single one of the flaws in the Jewish belief system, only holes in your ability to reason. Goodbye, and please get some psychiatric help, if not for your sake, for that of any friends, family members, or co-workers you might possess.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: DougR
Date: 09 May 03 - 01:14 AM

Ebbie: I respectfully disagree. If you were right, there would have been no end to WWII, right? Seems to me that an armed conflict resulted in the end of the Civil War in our own country. It ended the conflict between Texas and Mexico in 1836. WWI was settled by armed conflict. An instance where armed conflict took place, but there was no permanent settlement was Korea, and it is still festering today. Had McArthur been given free hand, perhaps there would be peace in Korea today. Viet Nam is a different story. Evidently it was never intended that we win that one. Had Johnson listened to Goldwater, there might have been an entirely different ending to that conflict.

DougR