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Greensleeves ... Whence the name?

DigiTrad:
GREENSLEEVES
GREENSTAMPS
LADY GREENSLEEVES


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Art Thieme 22 Mar 02 - 05:58 PM
Mr Red 23 Mar 02 - 06:44 AM
rich-joy 23 Mar 02 - 07:13 AM
Brían 23 Mar 02 - 11:20 AM
ard mhacha 23 Mar 02 - 02:55 PM
GUEST 23 Mar 02 - 03:06 PM
GUEST 19 Apr 02 - 03:57 AM
Steve Parkes 19 Apr 02 - 05:11 AM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Apr 02 - 09:37 PM
GUEST,Keiei 04 Dec 08 - 12:31 PM
GUEST,TJ in San Diego 05 Dec 08 - 12:37 PM
manitas_at_work 05 Dec 08 - 12:40 PM
Folkiedave 05 Dec 08 - 03:22 PM
Genie 05 Dec 08 - 04:27 PM
GUEST 12 Jul 09 - 09:52 AM
GUEST,Rochelle Vaughan 18 Nov 11 - 07:51 AM
GUEST,leeneia 18 Nov 11 - 09:38 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 18 Nov 11 - 10:22 AM
GUEST,Chilli 29 Nov 11 - 03:09 PM
GUEST,Songbob 29 Nov 11 - 03:50 PM
GUEST,steve 21 Jan 12 - 12:35 PM
Stower 21 Jan 12 - 02:54 PM
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Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 05:58 PM

Play it on a knows floot.

Art


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Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name?
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 06:44 AM

Art
not to be sniffed at.


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Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name?
From: rich-joy
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 07:13 AM

I'd heard that "Greensleeves" was Originally a Waits Carol ... how does this tie in with the Henry VIII timing ???
Cheers! R-J


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Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name?
From: Brían
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 11:20 AM

I recall reading in the glossary of a book of Folk Songs of the Miramachi, John Bonyan was quoted as saying that the reference to green in a song often refers to the woman being unfaithful. If that is true, Greensleeves referring to a prostitute or a coutesan wouldn't be far from the truth.

I like the idea of Greensleeves being a corruption of Irish, but I frankly don't see anything to back it up. The tune Cúnnla, otherwise known as The Frieze Britches is supposed to be sung to a varation of Greensleeves, though I don't see the resemblance. There do, however seem to be a number of tunes going by that name.

Sliabh an Ghrian would be Mountain of the Sun, but that would be the opposite of Greensleeves

Brían


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Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 02:55 PM

Shonagh could be right, when I was at primary school [many moons ago]one of the boys was nicnamed "Greensleeves". With a nose that was constantly running and hankys unheard of, he used his sleeves to good effect. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 03:06 PM

Without evidence that there was a Morris tune called "Greensleeves" in the reign of King Henry VIII, I take that to be just more hogwash.


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Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 02 - 03:57 AM

I should hope that we don't give this one to Henry VIII. Between creating a church, a condom company (well, kinda), and a place to get a nice divorce, the man doesn't deserve much more to his name.


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Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 19 Apr 02 - 05:11 AM

He had good calves, though ...


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Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 02 - 09:37 PM

Greensleeves 2


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Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name?
From: GUEST,Keiei
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 12:31 PM

Just for reference, for all of those who believe this has to do with Henry VIII, the style of song was not present in the British Isles for quite some time after his death, therefore, unless it was written by another person about that courtship, it cannot have anything to do with Henry VIII's courtship of Anne Boleyn. There may have been songs around before then which were similar to 'Greensleeves', but the actual style is Italian and did not arrive until approximately 100 years after his death, if I remember correctly.


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Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 12:37 PM

Now that we are all in agreement....

One of the standard explanations was that "camp followers" wore green sleeves or some sort of green cloth to identify them to both sides as non-combatants during battles - valuable commodities that they were.

I wonder if Oscar Brand would identify green sleeves as "what the Winnipeg Whore wore?".....sorry....


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Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 12:40 PM

If you remember..!


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Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 03:22 PM

Sing:

I wipe my nose upon my sleeve
and that's why they call me "Greensleeves".


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Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name?
From: Genie
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 04:27 PM

Brian, you mentioned that "The tune Cúnnla, otherwise known as The Frieze Britches is supposed to be sung to a varation of Greensleeves ... "

I think one might trace the origin of "The Frieze Britches" back to those couples who (per Alanabit's story) thought, "Gee, I know it's January and all, but there's only one room in the house, so let's go out and do it in the yard."

G


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Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 09:52 AM

what do u know about greensleeves


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Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name?
From: GUEST,Rochelle Vaughan
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 07:51 AM

I have dreams or "visions" in which truths are gently communicated, that to my constant amazement are either verified or make perfect sense. In one case, quite randomly, without my inquiry, I was told that "Greensleeves" was, in its original form a ballad about the God of Love, at that time being worshiped as Jesus Christ and his relationship to the world he gave his life for. The world is "greensleeves" being obviously clothed in green, but also on a second level, green is a color associated with the status of the courtesan at that time, which is the theological reference to men as the subjects of God. It was commonplace, at that time, for religious ballads to be co-opted by secular minstrelsy and vice-versa.


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Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 09:38 AM

I don't believe any of that. Nobody has written anything about anybody's sleeves before or since. The name is probably a corruption of the gaelic 'sliebh' for mountain.

And no matter how many guys quote other guys about the song being Italian, it is not particularly Italian. It uses Am, G, C and E, the chords of the harmonic minor of the C scale, and they'd been around for centuries by the time Greensleeves was written.

Its format is simple. There's an A part which is mostly minor, and there's a B part. The B part starts out major and returns to the minor so you can play A again. Many, many tunes do this.

Why can't we just enjoy a beautiful, beautiful composition without bringing in whores, snot, specious mythology, etc?


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Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name?
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 18 Nov 11 - 10:22 AM

The Real Story ... Greensleeves By Flanders and Swann

Greenfleeves

[A Monologue. MF talks, DS plays Greensleeves on the piano at a lazy tempo.]
There's another splendid tune from England's great heritage of musical rhubarb. Greensleeves, a song we all know and love. Donald knows it and he hates it.                           [The music stops]
Really very interesting how that tune, Greensleeves, came to be written.
I'd like to tell you about it. .... Are you all sitting comfortably?..... Then I'll begin.

1546, if you'll cast your minds back, was a very bad year for the theatre.
Gorboduc was doing poor business at The Globe;
Gammer Gurten was still giving everyone the needle *.
Apart from Noah's Flodde (On Ice), that's about all there was on.
Not even Salad Days in The Mouse Trap. ....... No, not even us.

Everybody's just seemed to stop writing.
And the Master of The King's Revels is getting terribly worried, because he has to have a new revel on in time for Candlemas, see, it's part of his job.
So, he sent for a playwright friend of his. And he said to him, "Look, Kyd." A-ah! That was his name: "Kyd." "Eh, how about your writing us another of your little Spanish Tragedies or something, I did so enjoy the last one."
Kyd said, "If it's all very well for you, standing there, smoking that potato, telling people to write plays, it's not as easy as all that.
All the best plots have been used already. Second volume of Hollinshed's ain't out yet. Any case, the public nowadays are only really interested in bear baiting and cock fighting. Morton's Fork! They don't give a fig for the live theatre." Very angry, young man, this 'Kyd.'

Well, the Master of the King's Revels sort-of calmed him down a bit, you know, as you do, stood him a butt of sack and so on. Said, "But, we really must try to think of something because this' going to be rather a special occasion:
We're nationalizing the monasteries." He said, "If they offer you one, don't take it 'cause if Bloody Mary gets in they'll be Denationalized." He said,
Um, matter of fact he said, "I have an idea for you," he said, "I know I'm only a civil servant, but you're most welcome to it. Why don't you... May I call you Doest Not Thou? May I? Thank you. Why doest not thou re-write Ralph Roister Doister? It is crying out to be done as a musical. Anything to stop it being done straight."
Kyd thought this was an absolutely wonderful idea; he rolled about on the floor like Donald when he's seen a joke. But by this time, of course, after all this sack, he was Titus Andronicus.

He staggered home... Well, he got to work on the books, straight away, got Skelton to work on the lyrics. John Skelton. Made a first-class job, too, right down to the very strong point numbers. Stephen Was a Worthy Peer, that was one of his, Nay, John, My Porridge is Too Hot, Cha-cha. Dozens more, very funny, very strong, lovely stuff.
But none of these songs seemed quite right to end the first half.
Now, if you're writing a musical, which I'm sure practically all of you are, that is the thing to watch out for, actually, what they call the first half closer.
They got to do Ralph Roister Doister in two halves; you're going to do Roister in the first half, Doister in the second half. Ralph in the interval.
And, uh, as, um, as Skelton said, and he was quite right, "For a first-half closer, you must have a hit. A palpable hit."
Well, they thought of having Sumer Is Icumen In. But this had got itself on the banned list; people had been singing "cuccu" rather too lewdly.
And he though, "Well, what next? There's always the Agincourt court songs," said Skelton, "but it's been done to death, hasn't it, I mean, having all those ghastly, old archers, I just can't face it," he said.
"They're just, uh, just not... Y'know, they're not writing songs like those any more these days." And Kyd said, "Well, leaf us not be too hasty," he said, "Leaf us not.
Somebody... Somebody maybe somewhere, .......this chap 'Anon' is writing some perfectly lovely... Nobody seems to know who his agent is." Well, they, um, they sat around in the old Bankside theatre, whence they had a short lease, getting more and more depressed, and shorter and shorter of money.

They pawned their doublets. ...Sitting around in their singlets. And those were Wolseys.
And suddenly, suddenly, there came the sound of a tucket without.
Pausing only to pull down his singlet and tuck it within, Kyd... Kyd rushed to the door, and a scroll was handed him by special messenger.
Kyd took the scroll, unrolled it. It rolled up again, it always did. Unrolled it again. At the bottom were several rows of very square, but highly illuminated notes. And at the top, it said, "Green - fleeves."
Kyd looked at this; he thought, "Well this is a pretty unlikely title. ...for a fong." He, um, he handed it over to Skelton, and sat back to listen while Skelton tried it over on the virginals.
[Greensleeves wafts lazily from piano, playing behind following monologue.]
And after listening for a while, Kyd said, therein he said, "Tis a passing-melodious roundolé. You know, I doubt me 'an it be commercial.
Who wrote this Greenfleeves thing, anyway?"
And a voice from the back of the auditorium shouted out, "We did!!!" [Music stops at end of verse.] Like that. Scared the living doublets and hose off 'em. And as they came forth, they could just make out a shadowy figure standing at the back there, and they said, "Who are you?" And the figure answered (and this is the part that's almost worth waiting for)... The figure answered, "We are Henry the Eighth, we are." Well, then, of course, they realized Greensleeves was exactly what they wanted.

They put it in the show, and under the title of Doxies Without Smocksies,† it ran for years. As you'd expect with royalty taking interest. Like horse racing and so on.
In fact, to this very day [Greensleeves resumes with chorus], in every period play you go to see, set in 1300 up to about 1715, I suppose, still for incidental music, Greensleeves is always played.
And the royalties go to royalty.


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Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name?
From: GUEST,Chilli
Date: 29 Nov 11 - 03:09 PM

Well having read the entire song and without knowing the "morals" of the time it always sounded to me like a man wooing a woman with valuable gifts including servants. Seemed to me that green was perhaps her favourite colour and had nothing to do with prostitution of any type.

The way the song was registered suggests that perhaps there was an "old" version. Certainly if the urban legend of Henry VIII being involved in the initial writing of it is correct I could see an argument for it being hidden away. Considering how the marraige to Anne ended he probably would not want to be reminded of the song and therefore would have discarded it. Anyone foolish enough to have played it probably would have had their reflective aparatise removed.

Here is another legend for you. Henry did not have Anne executed but instead executed a woman of similar appearance in her place. Sending Anne into exile with certain items one of which could have been the song it was not returned to England until years after Henry's death. Or it could have been written after the fact and the references to wooing the woman who did not love him are referring to the facts of his relationship with Anne. He would have kept it hidden until after his death as it would have made him appear weak. It may also have suggested that Anne was still alive for how else could she admit love before his death.


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Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name?
From: GUEST,Songbob
Date: 29 Nov 11 - 03:50 PM

You're all wrong. Eddie Greensleeves was the last to hold the title, and the tattered green sleeve, of a long line of champions of folksong. See Wikipedia "Eddie Greensleeves" if you don't believe me.

I saw him live, on my TV, on the Mike Wallace show, so I know whereof I speak.

Bob


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Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name?
From: GUEST,steve
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 12:35 PM

I worked for a couple of years in a call centre in England where I encountered people with all manner of surnames. Among these surnames were Greenleaves and Gildersleeve. It seems likely therefore that Greensleeves was someone's surname, and my lady Greensleeves may have been a real person.


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Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name?
From: Stower
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 02:54 PM

Oh dear oh dear oh dear ...

Lots of myths without any substance being rehashed here.

1. 'Greensleeves' has no Irish roots and is therefore not a mishearing of anything Irish.
2. It was not written by Henry VIII and has no relationship with any of his wives.
3. The earliest reference to 'Greensleeves' is a broadside ballad registered at the London Stationer's Company in 1580 (we can therefore be completely certain that it was not composed by King Henry VIII, who died in 1547), 'A New Northern Dittye of the Lady Greene Sleeves', which reappeared in 'A Handful of Pleasant Delights', 1584, as 'A New Courtly Sonnet of the Lady Green Sleeves. To the new tune of Green sleeves.'
4. Our first three records of the written tune are close in date: 'Greenesleeues' in the William Ballet Lute Book, an English hand-written anthology in several hands, c.1595 and c.1610, now in Trinity College, Dublin; 'Green sleeves' in Matthew Holmes' hand-written cittern book, Dd.4.23, c.1595, now in Cambridge University Library; and 'Greene sleves Is al mij Joije' in Het Luitboek van Thysius, c.1595-1620, now in Bibliot heca Thysiana, Leiden, western Netherlands.
5. Greensleeves is an example of a passamezzo antico, an Italian minor key ground bass or common chord progression, upon which a composer would fashion a tune. The passamezzo antico began in Italy in the 1500s before spreading in popularity through Europe. This does NOT mean Greensleeves goes back before 1580 - the ground bass is the chord progression, NOT the tune (just like all blues have a common chord progression but different tunes).
6. No one knows why it is called 'Greensleeves'. There were various livery laws in Tudor England about who could wear what - fabrics, amount of material, colours - so the answer may be something about her social standing. Maybe it just means she's high-born? But you'll need someone who knows a lot more about that than I to comment further - and my guess is they'd still be guessing as to its meaning.


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