BS: What are liberals made of?

Subject: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: wilco
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 01:04 PM

On the Mudcat BS threads: pre-conceived notions, self-righteousness, self-aggrandizing world views, bigotry based on a bogus intellectual elitism, deliberatly poor communicative skills, bogus and pretentious "holier-than-thou" attitudes. An unfortunate tendency to think they "speak for the poor and downtrodden." And, I predict, a propensity for personal attacks and a failure to reason.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Wesley S
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 01:28 PM

Those are people problems - not liberal problems. I dare say you can find the same behavior coming from some - not all - conservatives. Some conservatives even try to bait the liberals here. Imagine that !

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 01:40 PM

As a liberal, I'd be happy to change my view of conservatives, if they're willing - and able. :)

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 01:42 PM

Personally, I wouldn't have classified many religious leaders as liberals.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 01:43 PM

Let liberals speak for themselves:—

What they stand for HERE
What they are not HERE, and
FAQs HERE.

Respectfully submitted,
Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 01:43 PM

Liberal is a perfectly fine word, with an official (dictionary) definition that has nothing to do with any of these characteristics. The word's hijacking by people with a particular agenda is similar to the misuse and redefinition of other perfectly fine words, like "gay", "queer" and, yes, "conservative."

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Janie
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 01:54 PM

The Right Stuff:=)

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 02:07 PM

Why don't we all stop bickering and fighting amongst ourselves and get on with solving the country's problems??? Leave the labels at home, solutions nearly always lie between two extremes.

Stop trolling on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 02:19 PM

Gee, wilco, I thought liberals were made of "sugar and spice and everything nice."
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Frankham
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 02:27 PM

Studs Terkel pointed out that "liberal" in the dictionary is synonymous with "generous". I think that trait would be acceptable to most reasonable people.

Liberals as far as I can tell are not of a whole cloth. They are made of the same differences found in any group of political groups.

The threads "What are liberals/Conservatives made of?" has a pejorative and ad hominem premise and serves very little purpose except to rile folks up to no advantage.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 02:34 PM

Wilco:

I would like to suggest that you try and boil those broad traits down to particular instances you have encountered.

Maybe it is "just" semantics, but I do not think your post really says anything useful, or accurate, as written.

A

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 02:35 PM

I think the biggest problem, and this is a People Problem, is that groups of people always seem to have preconceived notions about other groups of people. Wasn't it Alexander Pope who said "a little learning is a dangerous thing"?

For instance, if all someone knew about me was that I have three tattoos, they might automatically assume I own a motorcycle, or that I have a pierced nose. I have neither one. If all they knew about me was that I'm a musician, they might automatically assume that I vote Democrat. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. And if all they knew about me was that I usually vote Libertarian, they might assume that I'm all for drug legalization. Nope.

Perhaps we might try to see people are individuals, rather than members of a group.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 03:06 PM

True, indeed, Kim. But the problem with that is that it may demand that we think. The way it is, if someone says something we don't like, we don't have to attempt to formulate a rational argument of refutation (which may not be possible should the statement made have the unfair property of being true), all we need to do is snort contemptuously and slap a label on whoever made the statement. Saves a lot of wrinkling of brows.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 03:28 PM

Frank Hamilton said:

"The threads "What are liberals/Conservatives made of?" has a pejorative and ad hominem premise and serves very little purpose except to rile folks up to no advantage"

Congratulations! Inflation has made your once .50 words now worth $1.00!

Best regards

Martin Gibson
Famous "moderate" guitar & banjo picker and alive and well in the 21st century.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 03:37 PM

But I like to think. Ain't that why God gimme a brain?

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 05:14 PM

Hope.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 05:22 PM

I think it'd be a big step forward if the USA stopped thinking that it was the best/most important country in the world.

Sadly, too many Americans seem to think that they have 'God on their side'

And they still wonder why some people hate America and what it stands for.

Please!

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 05:38 PM

America IS the best and most country in the world, whether we have God on our side or not.

If you hate us, too effin' bad. Most of us wouldn't trade it for any where else. Deal with it, please. You're not going to change anything, and quite frankly, no one here will let you.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 06:39 PM

The blind leading the blind I have seen often. But the anonymous rebutting the anonymous is even odder.

A

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 06:58 PM

It's all right for poly sci professors to define liberal and conservative, everybody knows their opinions are subject to change without notice. But I don't think I want anybody trying to define what makes me a liberal or puts some of my friends to the right of Ghengiz Khan. There's probably a textbook example of each, somewhere; everyone else, though will vary in some significant way.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Sam L
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 07:37 PM

Can't you do better than that? The fun of caricature is in the key features, and I don't think it's very well done. It's too crude, mere graffiti, lacks the cool of real observation.

    Happened to think of my favorite part of Charlotte's Web, when they find the writing "SOME PIG": I thought it was sensibly Liberal of the mother to say "Seems to me, we have an unusual SPIDER". The Conservative father replies "No. It's just an ordinary brown spider, right over there. But that's SOME PIG"!

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 07:53 PM

Well, he was Some Pig. He could talk, after all. ;-)

I don't know that America is the greatest country on earth. It's the only one I've lived in, although not the only one I've ever visited. I liked England a lot but I didn't have the experience of working there, paying bills there, seeing a doctor there... so I don't know how that compares with America.

I do wish we had more vacation, like the Europeans do. I get a fair amount of vacation, but it still gets used up quickly. It would be swell if employers understood that happy, well-rested employees will work a lot harder.

But I think every country has its pros and cons.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Frankham
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 08:06 PM

Mr. Gibson says,

"America IS the best and most country in the world, whether we have God on our side or not."

I submit that one of the things that makes this country great is that
it's not necessary to boast or brag about it. It is a great country but it's obviously not perfect. As an American, I still have the right to change what I consider to be wrong as long as I responsibly accept the consequences. I think that chest pounding and making other countries feel inferior is by no means expressing the true ideals of this country. It must never be forgotten that the only orignal settlers here were Native Americans.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: GUEST,John Hardly
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 09:25 AM

I don't think that what wilco48 has described is a liberal/conservative problem. I think it's a mudcat/forum problem. Internet forums have devolved into this sort of everyone-is-an-expert-with-their-set-of-internet-sources-that-prove-them-right.

Nobody is listening.

It's a crowded house and everyone is shouting.

Forums are rapidly becoming the last refuge for the lonely to find fellowship. Sadly, they were lonely in the 3D world for a reason.....and the reason follows them into the internet.

The mudcat's favorite red herring in this continual, on-going debate is to talk about the dictionary definition of "liberal" and "conservative" and then formulate their arguments and definitions from that. But I doubt that anyone here doesn't know that language evolves and that, though it may be helpful in understanding a word's root meaning that brought about a moniker, its dictionary definition most often holds no close correlation to current useage.

Wall.

Head.

BANG!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 09:51 AM

Rapaire's comment earlier in this thread:

Why don't we all stop bickering and fighting amongst ourselves and get on with solving the country's problems???

says it all...

There's a big world outside of the USA. I know that most of your population are too dim to realise that, but it happens to be true.

It also happens to be true that most of the world doesn't want the 'American way' Please stop bullying the rest of the world into Jesus (who died ages ago), non stop television and burger induced obesity

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Bert
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 10:30 AM

According to the next thread at this very moment it's "Haemorrhoid cream"

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 10:40 AM

I'm not lonely, John. I thoroughly enjoy my solitude when I can arrange it, which is frequently. I do enjoy being "right", of course, because I have an ego. I bet you're just like that too... virtually everyone is. When I want fellowship I go to musical clubs and local cafes and get together with friends...and sometimes I chat on Mudcat too. It's fun. Nothing more vital than that.

America is NOT the best country in the World. There is no such thing as "the best country in the World" and people would be better off giving up such self-aggrandizing notions and ways of looking down on other people. But that also arises out of ego, so there you go. The Lakota Sioux thought they were the "best" people in the World. I'm sure Custer thought the 7th cavalry was the "best" military unit in the World. Egotism is endemic. Being the "best" did not save Custer when he miscalculated, did it? It did not save the Lakota in the years following, when they were overwhelmed by the US Army. And being "the best" did not get America a military victory in Vietnam when the USA miscalculated either. I repeat, there is no such thing as the best country in the World and there never will be.

Now lookie here, Wilco, I already told you what Liberals are made of. They are made of blue denim and guacamole. And if that don't do it for ya, take an anger management course...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 11:38 AM

I don't pretend to know which country is the "best" in the world, but I do know that this is the best world we've got.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: John Hardly
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 11:52 AM

Jeez LH,
Does this mean you're not a loser?
Man, now I gotta go edit my list and put you on t'other side! *BG*

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Sam L
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 02:04 PM

It was bugging me for a while--deliberately poor communication skills? I'd have said liberals tend to be good at talking, to a fault. But then I think I got it--I think it's just a mannerism.

I think many people would give the U.S. points for originality, audacity, as an early draft. But then there are many respectable reasons to favor some other working models.

Well, I suppose he was some pig, but still it was a funny exchange.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 04:23 PM

Little Hawk:

I am sorry but you're mistaken.

The United States of America is the best nation on the planet. Or used to be, at least. And fortunately it is too big to corrupt quickly.

A

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 05:04 PM

I agree with nearly every word you have written, Wilco. It's a close to perfect description of what the German 'Liberals' are. Only that bit about An unfortunate tendency to think they "speak for the poor and downtrodden." doesn't fit. Sorry, but they don't have that tendency at all. They have called themselves the 'party for those who earn more than average'.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 05:22 PM

Quote, wilco: "pre-conceived notions, self-righteousness, self-aggrandizing world views, bigotry based on a bogus intellectual elitism, deliberatly poor communicative skills, bogus and pretentious "holier-than-thou" attitudes. An unfortunate tendency to think they "speak for the poor and downtrodden." And, I predict, a propensity for personal attacks and a failure to reason. AND, Wolfgang: It's a close to perfect description of what the German 'Liberals' are.
...the 'party for those who earn more than average'." (I know that last bit doesn't fit the US model.)

So I take it that we are not speaking of American liberals, wilco?

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 05:34 PM

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: GUEST,Heidebundt Pikelmaas
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 05:39 PM

Wilco's hatred of German liberals is well known. It amounts to an obsession. Wilco should get treatment. German liberals have done nothing to harm him and have more in common with him than he suspects.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 05:44 PM

Try again.... To be fair to liberals, they get up each morning and see that many things are wrong in the world: poverty, hate, polution, etc. The liberal knows that he is not at fault. The mistake comes when he seeks to lay blame on others rather than attempting to fix the problems. Conservatives are at least equally likely to be the one working hard to fix things.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Sam L
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 05:47 PM

I took Wilco to be speaking of us liberals here on the Mudcat, or else certain things make no general sense at all.

Still, it's rather easy to construe ever speaking OF the poor and downtrodden as thinking you speak FOR them. It's a rather facile characterization, trotted out to counter any concern with fairness, legality, justice. It has an unfortunate tendency to lend itself as an attack against anyone's concerns about anything.

   The framers of the U.S. constitution--what a bunch of self-righteous, self-aggrandizing, intellectual elites, with their holier-than-thou attitudes, thinking they spoke for the poor, oppressed, and downtrodden. And "give us your tired, your poor..." blah blah blah. What pretentious crap.

   Is there a more self-righteous, self-aggrandizing world view ever put on paper than "these truths we hold to be self-evident"?

I hope it's not one of those "personal attacks" if I think better fun could be made of liberals.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 06:02 PM

It's easy to make fun of liberals...almost as easy as it is to make fun of conservatives.

Anyway, isn't it fairly natural to be concerned about the poor and downtrodden?

I remember when Nixon was going on about his wife's "cloth coat" implying that he was just one of the "little guys", the downtrodden, the common man. Not like those rich, Boston, high society Democrats with their wives wearing mink coats. No sir!

The original Fathers of the American Revolution and the US Constitution were about as liberal as white people could possibly get at that time in history. Consider that. The conservatives of the time were in the ranks which opposed them and fought for King George and the British Empire.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Sam L
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 06:57 PM

Now now, guest pdq,

Saying things like "the liberal knows that he is not at fault"--I think that's what's being most fairly objected to. I'm a liberal and know I am at fault. The fact that others may be more so, if you look at it that way, doesn't absolve me of anything. Nor do I go around dressed in guilt and shame, I just try not to kid myself.

Hm. I've formed an idea that there's an unspoken existential basis for some conservative views. I'm just poking in the dark, trying to figure out what nobody will explain to me. It's like trying to find out when and what my mom has decided I'm going to do for her--I just have to stab at it because she doesn't want to say that she's worked it all out regardless of my schedule.

   But the existential idea that To do is to Be--seems to explain some things about conservative views of fairness and balance. People who do more, bigger things--they properly exist more, matter more. It's not exactly about working-hard=reward or about just kow-towing to the wealthy, those things are just sometimes spurious correlations.

I'm a liberal Socratic To Be is to Do-er, and often find conservatives to be very impressionable. With big good there's big bad, it seems to me, and I don't tend to give extra credit for scale of itself.

And it would help to explain how conservative leaders often seem to view their jobs as more kingly, how this one can behave as though he had a mandate when it could hardly be clearer that he never did. It's the maxim of truth to an individual essence--to be large.

I don't mean any offence. Just keep trying to figure why we see things differently, and conservatives and existentialists both always tend to baffle me, so I drew a link.

And please, I think we've all heard of Sinatra's Do be do be do philosophy.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 08:11 PM

Now, now, Fred. Are you sure it's a floor-wax AND a dessert topping!

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Bert
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 09:05 PM

Ah Little Hawk, how times change. You mention ol' King George. Of course the guy was 'a little mad'. Nowadays it's illegal in the good old USA to discrimate against those with a mental illness, and it's illegal to fire them which is just what happened to poor ol' George. And it's mostly us liberals who agree with that policy.

Britain and the USA were enemies in those days, and now of course The USA is Britain's greatest friend.

However I have seen nothing in these threads that change my mind that conservatives are made of Vegemite and Liberals of Preparation H.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: NicoleC
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 09:15 PM

> People who do more, bigger things--they properly exist more, matter more.

I don't think that covers it, because most of the wealthy elite don't DO much at all. Somewhere in their family tree they had a good thief. The descendants then had varying success at hanging on to it or adding to the hoard, and as the adage goes, it takes money to make money.

On the other hand, you have a 100% self-made guy like Bill Gates, who's pretty darn liberal, and gives away hundreds of millions every year (apparently, just because he CAN.) Some would say he's the thief on the family tree.

The US is a society that reveres and awards the accumulation of wealth and celebrity above all other things. We pay lip service to respecting certain non-lucrative trades, like teaching and farming and policing, yet we obviously don't respect them much or these folks wouldn't be at the lower end of the middle class pay scale. Instead, we make celebrities out of serial killers and CEOs who commit massive fraud that causes the deaths of consumers aren't even send to jail.

It's the "American Dream" to be rich and famous. And to think, it used to be owning a home and having 2.4 kids and a Oldsmobile.

I would hesitate to say that conservatives are more likely to hold this value system -- because to some extent all Americans do -- but I think that liberals are more likely to question it without knowing exactly what they are questioning. Nor do I think it's a definition -- politics just doesn't get defined that easy -- but when you think about the typical hot political issues and where idealogies line up, you do see a common thread.

Classism is very much prevalent in the US, we just don't talk about it. We live with those of the same caste, marry those of the same caste, have our kids go to school and church and hang out with kids of the same caste, and most of us die somewhere near where we were born. If a middle-class woman marries a rich man, she's a "gold digger." If a poor man dates a middle class woman, she's "sluming" or has no taste. Crossing the line upward is often greeted with suspicion -- "new money" instead of old money. Crossing the line downward means you are an abject failure, regardless of the circumstance, and your new lower class doesn't want you and your old higher class friends probably don't talk that much with you anymore.

You know, there are societies on this planet where one's status in society is not determined by what one has, but by how much one gives away. Imagine THAT on a political party platform! (It would be followed quickly by obscurity.)

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 09:25 PM

Little Hawk: "The original Fathers of the American Revolution and the US Constitution were about as liberal as white people could possibly get at that time in history. Consider that. The conservatives of the time were in the ranks which opposed them and fought for King George and the British Empire. "

I agree with you, LH; it seems inarguable. However, I wonder how dyed-in-the-wool- formerly- known- to- me- as - 'knee-JERKS':) conservatives see that event and its promoters?

I'm JERKing the chain as hard as I can lately and expect to get called on it one of these times and don't mind (pant, pant, pant) but I feel that conservatives tend to be less willing to laugh at themselves than liberals are. Liberals, by and large, are keenly aware of the absurdities of our time.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Bert
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 09:27 PM

Hmmm, an interesting post NicoleC, on one hand you approve of Bill Gates, who has made millions by foisting an unmitigated heap of crap on an ignorant public.

And then you appear to disapprove of America's kinda mild class structure. If you think America is bad then try England for class discrimination.

However I think that, like me, you are a liberal at heart, because you have obviously put some thought into your posting and have the courage to say what you think.

Your comment "liberals are more likely to question" is probably the most accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 09:41 PM

OK Ebbie, I'm callin" ya out! Sculpin at 30 paces. Splat! Splat!

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: NicoleC
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 09:57 PM

Then again, Bill has made millions by foisting crap that was slightly less crappy than what else what out there and people were glad to get it. As someone who intimately recalls cryptic Unix command line interfaces, having 14 different pieces of internet software for your strap-in phone modem, and generations of Macs that mysteriously crashed every 2 hours, thank God Bill pushed. I only wish Amigas hadn't been so far ahead of their time that no one wanted a computer that made music and videos and played video games, and so they went out of business.

Think what you may of the software, but "Bill Bashing" is just more classism. Something MUST be wrong with him because he went from this middle class kid to the richest guy in America! When he engages in common (if unsavory) business tactics, it's cause for a federal lawsuit. When a Rockefeller or a Mondavi does the same thing, it's just 'business.'

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 10:14 PM

Guest/pdq- sculpins? Ewwwwwwwww   Let's negotiate.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 10:23 PM

Admit that some conservatives have a modicum of humor and I'll let ya off. Final offer.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Bert
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 10:45 PM

Naw Nicole, I bash Bill because his latest version of windows is slower than my old Apple II plus and because it crashes three times a day and because it has memeory leaks so that you have to reboot every hour or so.

Mudcat itself has a Windows server which needs rebooting about twice a day and a Linux server which needs rebooting about every three months.

Give me a Unix command line and I can write a few shell scripts that will run rings around windows.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Sam L
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 10:54 PM

pdq--ouch. I don't think I've ever been remembered and utterly beaten in one breath before.

   Ebbie, I can't help but agree. I've never felt the sort of uncritical support for any liberal president that many people seem to feel for a 3rd-rate conservative one. At best. Even if I believed in what he was doing I'd wish he'd make some passable effort to put it across to the people who disagree--he's not a king and even if he was his doings could still be undone. He's pushing his luck, it seems to me.

Nicole C just for a laugh sometime why don't you help me out? Yes yes yes you mountain flower of andalusia but, you know, I'm trying to figure how people look at it otherwise.

For one thing, hanging on to money isn't so easy as it sounds, and the paranoid-seeming fears of losing their money, among wealthy people I know, aren't really unfounded. It's remarkably easy to lose. Money has effect even if you just park it somewhere. Some of us might as well admit we don't especially seek it partly because we don't want the responsibility, while we're content to judge people who have to do something with it. It may in practical terms effect the whole equation--To be wealthy is to do, and to do is to be. For better or worse, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 11:17 PM

I'd be happy to, pdq- show me some? :)

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 11:23 PM

Boy, I'll say. I'm not rich but I would be a lot closer to it if I had back the dough I have lost -- even before any dot-coms. To be wealthy (other than by inheritance) does require a neat combination of energy, action, brains and timing. But in some instances it also involves rip-off escapades. Imagine if Gates was fined at going rates for every American labor hour that was wasted because his products were defective -- reinstalls, reboots, rewriting lost documents, etc. I daresay it would be right up close to his total wealth!

A

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 04:44 PM

When faced with a governmental budget crisis, a liberal will always say "more money" and a conservative will always say "less spending".

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Bert
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 05:14 PM

That's a good thought Amos, Let's all bill him for that time lost *GRIN*

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 06:20 PM

I'd like to bill the entire system for largely wasting my time with the interminable hours I spent in the gulag called "school", when I might better have been actually getting a real education in the real World and enjoying myself too. Not that it was a complete waste...I learned some lessons in psychological survival tactics there, and I learned to avoid large competitive organizations.

I'd also like to bill them for the portion of my tax money which they spent on military endeavours I did not approve of.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 07:01 PM

"Those who are not liberal at sixteen have no heart, and those who are not conservative at sixty have no mind."
                         --Some dead Englishman of the 19th century.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: DougR
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 07:32 PM

Joe Offer: are you sure you didn't mean snail and nails and puppy dog tails? :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Sam L
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 07:54 PM

I thought it was frogs and snails and puppy dog tails.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 12:10 AM

Snips and Snails and Puppy Dog Tails, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Metchosin
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 06:08 AM

Rapaire, I thought the original quote was regarding a "socialist" not a "liberal". Just curious but are the terms "socialist" and "liberal" interchangeable in the US?

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 06:23 AM

When in England at a fairly large conference, Colin Powell was asked by the Archbishop of Canterbury if our plans for Iraq were just an example of empire-building by George Bush. He answered by saying the following:
"Over the years, the United States has sent many of its fine men and women into great peril to fight for freedom beyond our borders. The only amount of land we have ever asked for in return is enough to bury those who did not return."

It became very quiet in the room.

via Dr. Leon Flancher

which of these men is the liberal?

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 07:49 AM

It's not exactly land the USA is after in the classic sense, because official colonization is not politically acceptable anymore. It's market share and control of resources that is their main concern...and a small amount of actual ground for handy strategic military bases, such as Guantanamo in Cuba, and many others in many places, Iraq being the latest. Iraq may serve as a key base in future moves on Iran, Syria, or even Saudi Arabia...we'll have to wait and see who wins the next "pre-emptive war lottery" and upon what excuse.

The planners of these grand strategies care less about the American soldiers who die than they do about the dirt under their own fingernails...unless they are so emotionally naive as to believe their own propaganda. I expect a few of them are.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: kendall
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 10:08 AM

Now dont knock the conservatives, I've spent many happy hours engaged in a battle of wits with them. Most of them have, however, been unarmed.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 10:10 AM

Powell's statement would be moving, indeed, if it wasn't utter bullshit. The quiet resulted from the audience choking while trying not to laugh in his face.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Sam L
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 11:34 AM

Some international liberals have supported the war. But a lasting and meaningful outcome remains to be seen, and there are and have been plenty of causes for scepticism.

As to which man is liberal, do you mean in the good or bad sense?

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 11:57 AM

Almost sure it was "Snakes and Snails and Puppy Dog Tails".

Fred: Do you mean liberals "in the good sense" when they do good things and liberals "in the bad sense" when they do bad things?

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: NicoleC
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 11:59 AM

Yes, Powell's statement would be touching -- if factual. The Mexican-American war springs to mind. The "taming" of the American West. Then there's the Panama Canal, and...

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 12:25 PM

It doesn't matter a great deal if you have title to a particular plot of land if you have control over the person who does.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Sam L
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 01:33 PM

pdq,
No, I'm just trying to play along, and wonder what the guest means by the question. I'm guessing maybe a "good" sense from the previous discussion of forward-thinking constitutional values was being invoked, by someone who would in other contexts use "liberal" differently.

   I'm more a skeptic than a liberal or conservative, but Liberal seems to fit me much better, especially on social issues. Since part of politics involves trying to predict the future, I figure everyone is entitled to make some mistakes. Having my modest intelligence insulted by many conservative "views" hardens me in the liberal camp. I find a lot of conservative views careless about making any semblance of sense, merely masking a predictable and cynical agenda.

The dictionary definition of Existentialism seems to me a pretty good recipe for a cult of self, and celeb worship, all the tiresome "inspiring" self-made man stories of pulling oneself up by whatever seem to tie in fairly nicely. Why is it Freud and existentialists have so little to say about plain old narcissism? Though conservatives may appear to respect "greater good" values in cultural legacy and religion I think there's this inner worm in there, somewhere, sometimes.

Liberals lose me when they make entirely too much sense--like in so many conspiracy theories. Life isn't really like that, it seems to me. And sometimes things matter even though you can't explain it--that's as nice as I can stand to be about it. Whew. I'm spent.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 02:25 PM

I don't really want to get into the definition of "liberal" vs. "conservative" ( or "Liberal" vs. "Conservative") pissing match but would observe that the gross ignorance of history (or the wilful disregard of fact and subsequent "terminological inexactitude") displayed by Powell in the statement quoted and tyhe agreement with and support of such an idiotic statement by "conservatives" is one thing that tends to get up the noses of 'liberals'.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 03:18 PM

Thanks, Fred, I will save my poem about you for another thread. There seems to be change in tone everywhere, not just Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 03:39 PM

I think we should start a new party of Compassionate Skepticism, and put Kendall up as its candidate. It would be clear-eyed, hard-nosed and factual, so the conservatives would stop bitching, and it would be humane and creative and firmly compassionate, so the bleeding hearts would have nothing to bitch about anyway. Of course, they would find something on both sides...they always do. :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Sam L
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 05:54 PM

Pdq, I'm afraid.

Okay, but still. Tone is hard to tell in e-mail, I think. And even if it sours, sometimes it's fun to pretend you don't notice, and just march along in an oblivious Gomer Pyle sort of way. Nobody can prove you know better. If no one plays the fool, then everything always ends badly.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 06:16 PM

I recently re-named my pet feline. He is now Fred the Cat. Fred is an OK mouser but his specialty is lizards. He can spot the slow, lethargic reptiles from hundreds of feet away. He sneaks up on them quietly, then pounces. When one of the weak-witted beasts tries to run for his hole, Fred the Cat reaches out a deft paw and flips the hapless lizard in the air. When it lands Fred goes swat, swat with his paw. The dazed reptile has no hope left. Sometimes Fred brings his quarry to the front door for me to admire. Sometimes they are disemboweled before he shows them off and sometimes after. Fred the Cat just loves to play with his food!

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 07:00 PM

pdq, I agree with you regarding Fred, the Cat. (And that's a compliment, FM.)

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Sam L
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 07:02 PM

And is this is somehow about me, or am I flattering/lampooning myself to ask?

At any rate, be kind. Cat psych teaches that when they do these things, they mean well. I once woke up with a mouse staring at me on my pillow, my cat sitting silently right behind it. I woke up rapidly. But I pretended to her that I ate the mouse.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Deda
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 07:58 PM

I am a liberal but I contain NO vegemite.

It's true, though, that I am made of denim and guacamole. Pretty much entirely.

IMHO, conservatives lead with their (often hard) heads, and liberals lead with their (often soft) hearts. Personally I would much rather be soft-hearted (even if it means also being a bit soft in the head) than hard-headed (if it also means being hard-hearted). I love reason (as in math), but it's very easy to misuse it for very bad ends. History spills over with rationalizations of and by bad people. I think that the world needs more open, loving hearts far more desperately than it needs more thought.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 08:04 PM

Join the Compassionate Skeptics!! The Political Party that cares but never whines -- the party of Fred the Cat!


Watch this space....



A

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 08:14 PM

Dern computers...Yes Fred, it is fer you.

Ebbie... admit a modicum of humor? Good, it's off. Sculpin have spines and smell funny.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 08:20 PM

Liberals are being used by global tyrannists. Take the new gay high school in New York, as an example (I just can't get enough of this as a good example). It is wrong. I'm a moderate and I say establishing this school is wrong. But you liberals HAVE to support it because, well...you have to TOLERATE, don't you? But this issue was settled by the US Supreme Court with regards to race. Segregated schools were abolished. Separate but equal is not kosher. But now liberals are so tied up in knots that they're back to where they began. They fought AGAINST segregating blacks, but now they're FOR segregating homosexuals! What the hell's wrong with you people? You don't know? I'll TELL you what's wrong.

You are being used to help create world tyranny. As you race your engines going back over the same ground over and over and over again, corporations are bleeding the US dry. Soon, all pension funds will be busted, all jobs will be gone, and the corporate Bush Company types will turn the country over to the Soviet Democrat types. And all the diversions you liberals have pursued...abortion and tree hugging...those issues will suddenly seem unimportant when the economy crashes and the govt starts doling out your twenty bucks a month IF you agree to huddle into the compact cities and take your carcinogenic vaccines like a patriotic American. And by then any protest will be deemed 'terrorist activity', so you'll end up in one of the Supermax prisons if you carp. Just hope it isn't the prison in Inez, Kentucky, which is built over a deep old coal mine that'll hold LOTS of bodies.

You liberals want strong central govt, you're about to get it JUMBO sized.

DG

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 08:22 PM

"But I pretended to her that I ate the mouse" LOL

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Sam L
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 09:05 PM

Cross-posted with my apparently mutual admirer Ebbie. Thanks, I'll have to pretend to be embarrassed. But I'm just glad that damn Little Hawk isn't grabbing up thoughtful kudos, yet again.

Bad news is, I sometimes think I could write, if I wasn't so @#$#$#@$ lazy. I think I'm funny as hell. The great James Still once liked one of my stories. A LOT. (For everyone who hasn't read it, it was GREAT. You'd LOVE it.)

   Little Hawk was right, we aren't here because we're losers. But it's good to have the little exercise of counting out our two cents. Even the people who piss us off are doing us a favor.

Thanks. I don't find myself quite so intolerable, for now.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Sam L
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 09:21 PM

Guest, I don't, as a liberal, have to support a gay high school. But I had to love the little sister in the movie Election. They were going to take my card-carrying-liberal card back if I didn't!

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 08:51 AM

Hi there DG,

Why not start a seperate thread to discuss, "corporations", "pension funds", "jobs" and "corporate types". With your slant on things it could get quite amusing.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: kendall
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 09:07 AM

I am a Liberal, as you well know, and I dont think this special school is the answer. When I was in school, I was harrassed because I came from the wrong side of town. It included physical abuse, until I started to grow, but when I hit 160 pounds, it stopped. Anyway, where were the teachers while punches were being thrown in the school yard? Why was there no supervision?
Seems to me the answer is EDUCATION. Something more than the three "R's". Why are these bullies not being taught tolerence? To kill a snake, you cut the head off, not the tail.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 09:58 AM

Wel, from the head's point of view, it's the tail you cut off -- it's all tail south of the neck anyway!

Actually bullies are taught more tolerance than they once were in some schools -- they actually have courses and student representative facilitators who are trained in mediating incidents, etc.

A

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 10:22 AM

How DARE you call yourself liberal and not be in favor of the gay school, kendall? Gay bashing. Phony liberalism. Get back in line.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Sam L
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 11:52 AM

Yeah, Kendall--that's like being a conservative and not being in favor of wrecking the economy.

How can people keep talking about liberal spending? Is it cheating to just look at the tab? Conservatives must think the economy is a limited pie based on money. Don't they see that the economy is unlimited, and with sound investments in infrastructure, paying for some of those hidden costs of free enterprise, you can get more back? John Hardly?

I don't buy the heart and head division. I think you can do a few things right in cold blood, without getting all weepy about it.

If you're in a really bad situation you might prefer a conservative to show up to help. Preferably on a motorcycle--conservatives are helpful people, and bikers tend to be big-hearted good samaritans. But if you didn't want to be in a bad situation in the first place, you might want to vote for a competent liberal every now and then.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 12:28 PM

Liberals expect the rich to support PBS, so they send no money. Conservatives see that PBS is run by and for liberals and they send no money.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 12:58 PM

In Cuba, where it's all PBS, they don't have that problem nor do they have commercials. Nor does anyone have bad teeth, because dental is free. But don't fret..."freedom" will arrive soon, I'm sure. :-) And then they can all live in the kind of paradise you presently find in places like El Salvador or Mexico or Guatemala or Panama. Dentists will then earn 50 times as much as now, and 90% of the people will have bad teeth and crime will be rampant. That's progress, buddy! Gotta love it.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 01:21 PM

Doug R will need a strong constitution on that fishing trip!

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: jimmyt
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 02:35 PM

little hawk, I knew you were a futuristic authority on most matters, but I had no idea you were also so versed in the dental health of entire countries. Perhaps I could get you some lectures scheduled in the dental field.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 04:09 PM

Now there's a cool idea, Jimmy. I will have to look into it. :-)

I think Doug and I will try to stay entirely off the subject of politics if we can manage it. After all, there are lots of other enjoyable things to talk about and we agree on most of them.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Sam L
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 04:27 PM

Jimmyt, if I follow your tone and implication, because Little Hawk isn't a dentist, socialism can have no advantages?

Sorry if I'm confused, I was at the dentist yesterday, and am loopy on painkillers. Really I'm glad to see more conservative input, and also to see the prediction of illogical personal attack finally bearing some fruit.

I got an $800 dollar check today for a child tax credit. Any advice how I can invest it so I can afford to pay for it in April?

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: jimmyt
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 04:34 PM

LittleHawk. youi are the man!!! I am also of the opinion that the more off the subject we can stay the better. Do you have any suggestions where Fred can put his check? I have the obvious one, but probably shouldn't mention it in a family bulleton board site. Come see me if you are ever in town, Little Hawk! WOuld love to meet you in the flesh. Everyone have a nice day, ya hear?

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: kendall
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 05:00 PM

There is no way that one word, Liberal, can cover my total philosophy. I'm a fiscal conservative (Bush's tax cut stinks) but I'm also a social liberal. People are far more important than money...well, to liberals they are.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 05:10 PM

I like your sense of humour, Jimmy. :-) I'd be glad to get together if I'm "in town", but where do you live? I'm in Orillia, Ontario. Fred's check? Ummm...no... I know nothing about child tax credits, being childless.

Maybe he could invest it in dachshund futures.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Sam L
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 08:40 PM

Now there's another very cool idea, Jimmyt, unless I mistake your tone and implication again. I'll have to look into it, so to speak.

   I don't know about posting to a subject with the idea of staying off the subject. Not that it isn't sensible and very nice of you, just that some drugged idiot might suppose you mean something by it. But then, Wilco48 STARTED a thread subject just to stay off of it, maybe there's something to it I don't understand--and anyway, two outta three ain't bad.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 09:18 PM

I figure it's usually better to have a laugh then get mad...

Just think, if more people thought that way there would probably be a lot less war.

But you've got a good point there, Fred. Posting to a subject with the idea of staying off that subject is a bit of a conundrum to say the least. I doubt that Wilco could possibly have anticipated the permutations that have arisen in this thread when he started it.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: jimmyt
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 10:23 PM

Little Hawk, I am in Dalton, Georgia, which if my geography is even partially correct is directly down interstate 75 on the waY TO CUBA!Stop by and have a cold beer. Hell, you too, Fred!

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Sam L
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 10:28 PM

Thanks Little Hawk, for a minute I thought maybe I'd come across wrong, to you. I try to be funny and it doesn't always work.

   The child tax credit is $400 dollars each, and I've got two head of kid here, one head of cat. The government wants me to hold it for them, then they charge me for it at tax time. Judging by the market index I heard on the radio today, Jimmyt's idea seems as good as any.

Off the subject, is a pirate with two eyepatches and two hooks and two peglegs disabled, or overqualified?

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 11:59 PM

Neither- he's ready for politics.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: jimmyt
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 09:11 AM

on the Pirate Vein, Did you know what Captain Hook Died from?? Cutlass? no   Cannonfire? no walk the plank? no actually a microbe called Tinia Crurus

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 09:34 AM

Everyone knows that Capt. Hook perished after wiping himself with the wrong hand.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: jimmyt
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 10:14 AM

You got it. Curmudgeon! Tinia Crurus is the Scientific name for Jock Itch! My only microbiology humor for the day!

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 10:16 AM

Cur..does the Fort Mudge Memorial Dump draw it's name from one of your ancestors?

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Sam L
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 10:23 AM

That's how he got the Tinia Crurus. The story was, he was looking into investing his booty in his uh booty, and used the wrong investment arm. He was a bit of a leftist.

Thanks Jimmyt.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 10:35 AM

Ha! Ha! Ha! Now this is much more useful than bitch-slapping each other over liberal/conservative labels, isn't it? Maybe we should start a thread about disabled pirates.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: jimmyt
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 10:59 AM

LittleHawk, Just went looking at yooour photo, and damn, do you ever look like a money grubbing capitalist playacting as the world's richest meanest banker! I do a lot of theater also. I think pewrhaps we could do the odd couple? just a thought, but I am sure Fred Could be one of our card playing beer drinking buddies? all proceeds to go to the Fred Miller Tax fund, and the much maligned Bridge to Cuba? could work!!! Fred, not fair not posting a photo of yourself so we can see the man behind the words!!! I look just as geeky as you may imagine!    i will drop scripts in the mail, we can take the Odd Couple on Mudcat tour.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 12:11 PM

Alaska as a whole has often debated moving the capital from Juneau in the panhandle to the Anchorage area, its most populous region, and the question has often been on the ballots.

One year a second measure was put on the ballot that demanded that a study be done beforehand on what the total costs of a move would be.

The second measure passed but even at that, 68,000 people said, in essence, Nah. We don't need to know how much it will cost.

Question: Which were the conservatives, which the liberals?

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 12:32 PM

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.............................

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Sam L
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 02:53 PM

I'll get around to posting a photo sometime, but I'm only slowly moving into the last century. The women in my family turn out very nice, but us guys are just sort of unremarkably potato-faced.

I have some very conservative friends who are always forwarding conservative e-mail things to me. Got one this morning about Robin William's plan for peace--very pro-U.S., in the vein of the Powell remark, but more expansive. I wonder if it's the comedian Robin Williams, or someone else? The style of humor seems different.

   I suppose I don't come across well in disagreements online. I like to argue and have a juvenile smart-ass streak. I enjoy trolls sometimes, and the fuss they stir up. I can usually laugh at my pretentions, but I still have them.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Sam L
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 04:15 PM

Ebbie, I'd guess the liberals wanted to do a study?

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 06:46 PM

I'd say you're right, Fred. At least, it's the Republicans, by and large, who want the capital moved closer to the financial centers.

I sometimes think it boils down to this: Liberals tend always to have more questions; they want more information. Conservatives think they already have all the answers that matter...usually because their father/the head of the party/ the president of the country gave the answers to them. :)

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: kendall
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 07:37 PM

A redneck is one who has all the answers and none of the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 10:34 PM

That play was a lot of fun, Jimmy. It was written by a friend of mine, a poet and sometime playwright. Bankers are very unpopular in Canada these days for a number of reasons...I think they are becoming even more unpopular than lawyers and child-molesters but it's a little hard to tell.

I think the idea of a bridge to Cuba is a very bad one! It would be the equivalent of building an underground tunnel to Mexico that surfaces somewhere in Los Angeles and has no guards at the American end. In other words, it would be lively!

There's a rumour going around in Latin America that you can cop a higher lifestyle in the old USA (which may or may not happen for a given individual...depends on a number of factors). Only difference is, the USA chooses to treat Cubans (usually) as political refugees. Believe me, they wouldn't if it was easier for the Cubans to make the crossing in large numbers!

The actual fact is, most of these people are primarily economic refugees. Build a bridge to China or the Phillipines and see what happens!!!

Anyway, it's a moot point. The imminent Martian invasion on Aug 31 will leave these minor Earthling issues in the dust... (see "Attack Coming on August 27th!" thread). :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Aug 03 - 12:09 PM

That's not a redneck, Kendall, that's a Republican.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 07 Aug 03 - 12:35 PM

Son, this is a Beach Party movie. Your job is to wait until the plot bogs down, then run out and yell "Surf's Up"

                      "SURF'S UP"

Son, I said wait until the plot bogs down, then yell "Surf's Up". The movie hasn't even begun yet.

                      "SURF'S UP"

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Sam L
Date: 07 Aug 03 - 06:03 PM

Yes, Ebbie. But I suppose there's another side to the coin. At least one liberal I know suffers from chronic hamletitis. And there's a special kind of embarrassment reserved for liberals when the most well-informed thing to do turns out for all the world to be an error, and the brashest resolve turns out right for unexpected reasons. Conservative views wouldn't interest me at all if it weren't for the "green Acres" phenomenon of some inexplicable coherence of conservative nonsense. That's what I wish some brilliant conservative could explain to me. Two wrongs don't make a right, but sometimes 20 or 30 of them come out okay, somehow.

   I have a conservative character, in that respect, on race and gender equality. All that we can know about race and gender intelligences or merit tests or whatever means nothing to me. I believe in a general concept of equality, which I prefer to any and all information. I distrust all the means of measure, am bored by the fine points and brave scholarship. It may be true but it isn't useful for me to know.

   There was a multi-million dollar study here on where a bridge should be built, and the result was an answer any schoolkid looking at the map would've given, the closest span. I'm not saying it wasn't wise to do the study, but I'm personally familiar with the tendency to carefully plan more things than one ever has resources left to actually get done. Conservative resolve really bothers me when the same proven mistakes are made over and over, as if any study were necesary to know better.

The psychological basis of conservative and liberal tendencies is interesting, but for some reason whenever you characterize anyone or anything, it often comes out kind of offensive, even if it isn't meant to be. People want to wiggle out of it. The study that started these recent threads probably could've said pretty much the same things in more positive terms, but I think people still resist it.

I think liberals could write a better criticism of their own faults than those above. For one thing, conservatives are too annoyed and impatient to take much trouble with it. But the epistemology behind it is fun, and I once did an experiment to see what my daughter's politics were, when she was 5, I think. I said "Because I said so". She got this look on her face, and said That's not a reason! Raging liberal.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: GUEST,Paul D
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 10:36 PM

"A conservative is someone who refuses to quote anyone but dead radicals."
- some dead radical

If there were no liberals, we would never get rid of the bad.

If there were no consevatives, we would never hold on to the good.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: MAV
Date: 13 Aug 03 - 10:06 PM

Don't make me come down there!!!

First you've had to argue about the meaning of liberal and conservative.


Why don't you simply argue over the real current meanings?

They are;<


A. Authoritarian, World Worker's Party, Marxist, fascist, (liberal see: "France")


B. Freedom loving American Constitutionalist (conservative)

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Aug 03 - 10:50 PM

Liberal equals authoritarian? Huh??? Someoen's been slicing the dictionary and gluing the chunks back crooked. It is obvious to me that there is no definition. The very word Liberal comes from the Latin root for freedom. In fact Fascism is about the opposite of liberal thought. Conservatives who pass acts like the Patriot act which is anti-consittutionalist are now claiming to be pro-consitutional? This is topsy turvy stuff indeed. They want to enforce faith-based agendae via the Federal government and claim they are being constitutionalist? Excyoooose me?

I'd like to know what the hell is really going on here. Why are these terms being twisted around like this?

It's infuriating and quite stupid.

A

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: kendall
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 12:53 PM

Liberal. The act of leaving others to hell alone.

Conservative.
Anal
control freak
judgemental
fearful of change

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 03:08 PM

Love & Truth
& just a little Vermouth
that's what Liberals are made of

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: kendall
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 03:41 PM

I'll drink to that.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: jimmyt
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 03:46 PM

Kendall, sounds more like the definition of a Libertarian to me.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Sam L
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 04:42 PM

Good one MAV, funny, and beautifully confused. Beau disodre, ? I think that's the French term.

A lot of liberal things are pretty awful. Tomorrow is my last day in a stupid labor union, for example. But I blame conservatives for these stupid clumsy counter-measures, since we've already seen what happens without them, and it's worse than stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 06:05 PM

Congrats, Fred!

A

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: kendall
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 08:00 PM

As a history major, I can state with some knowledge that without labor unions, we would
/will be back working 15 hour days for a dollar a day.
Labor unions created the middle class. They gave us the weekend, overtime, minimum wage etc. I lived through the "Great depression" and I dont want to go through that again.

Subject: RE: BS: What are liberals made of?
From: GUEST,fred miller no cookie
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 09:32 AM

Yes, I agree Kendall except I allow it might be worse.

But the bad things about the unions are that they have to try to codify, blind, things that could be better decided by attention and knowledge. If only that was the real alternative, but it generally isn't. I've wound up measuring out my efforts rather guardedly, like many a teamster, because some co-workers are content to let you carry their weight. And if you work your hardest when you feel okay, there's no help for you when you happen to be under the weather. In many ways it was a good job, where you can see the purpose of your efforts, get a good hard workout, have fun busting your butt--yet it gets spoiled, and it's a shame. I'm going to miss those things the vampire humor--things are funny at 3 in the morning that aren't in daylight hours.

Again, it goes back to the fact that people who should never have been hired in the first place were hired, because the supervisors get bonuses for numbers, blindly. And anyway if it weren't for the union, there certainly wouldn't be the health insurance for part-timers, which is the only reason I was there at all. That counterbalances any criticism I have, by a good measure.

Thanks Amos.