BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?

Subject: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: jimmyt
Date: 01 Sep 03 - 10:20 PM

In light of the fact that the website just came back up and there aren't lots of threads, I just finished the Da Vinci Code, and I found it to be a very provocative read. Anyone have any thoughts?

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Sep 03 - 10:41 PM

Sure!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: jimmyt
Date: 01 Sep 03 - 10:48 PM

a penny for them, Susan?    grin

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 01 Sep 03 - 11:02 PM

Yep, I read it. I enjoyed it up to the point where Detective Whatever-his-name-is comes in right at the end and wraps things up neatly after barely having been mentioned in the rest of the book. The author has apparently written a series of books about this artworld detective and insisted on this book being part of the series even though the guy basically had nothing to do with the story. Other than that, it was an intriguing well-researched story.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 12:10 AM

Aw, naw, jt, I charge at least a wooden nickel for my thoughts. Heck, I'm teaching TWO theology-type classes this fall! Hm, mileage to your place, now that'd do it, if the do-woppers are on hand when I get there.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 12:11 AM

Beautifully constructed story.

If you're asking for thoughts on the historical propositions woven into the story, I think they are compelling but I can't say one way or the other what their historical veracity is. It certainly is believeable as written, and it is true that there are a number of books out there which argue for the Magdalene visionary interpretation championed int he book. As well there might be -- it is a beautiful counterpoint to the authoritarian paternalistic version of Xianity, whihc certainly deserves some good solid counterpoint.


A

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 12:53 AM

You should ask 'Spaw....DaVinci fixed his heart.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 03:01 AM

Leonardo Davinci?

if you rearrange all the letters of his name, you get Vindaloo and Rice!

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 01:01 PM

Mister Happy, that is a meaningless concatenation of idle coincidence!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 01:43 PM

That may be true, Amos, but a decent size pot of vindaloo and rice can feed a family of four while Leonardo DaVinci can only sit on the coffee table and impress visitors.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: Merritt
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 01:58 PM

A good read IMO. Altho I found author's grasp of concepts, history, word puzzles and such stronger than his ability to manage narrative flow, character development, dialogue, etc.

- Merritt

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 02:00 PM

I recently read another one by the same author: Angels and Demons. The comments by Merritt apply to this book as well, but in spades -- the plot was absurd and infantile, but the information was very interesting. Looking forward to The Da Vinci Code, hoping it's better.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 02:01 PM

"a meaningless concatenation of idle coincidence"

That's the kind of thing people are always saying about enlightening insights such as the one Mr Happy brought to our attention. (Except that Amos phrases it more eloquently than most.)

Perhaps the Mona Lisa was looking that way because she had just had a hot curry...Satisfied but perhaps a touch apprehensive.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 02:17 PM

The da Vinci portrayed in the book was head and shoulders above mere vindaloo, a sort of trashy slop of meat and curry sauce, yes? No, the Mona Lisa, according to the author, was a central mystic icon in a cosmic tease which has fooled humankind for two thousand years. WOnderful thesis, well supported.

I agree completely that his informrational basis is far more satisfying than his depth of characters and the strength of his plots and dialogues. He really should have turned the whole thing over to Peter T and had him do the writing.

A

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 02:27 PM

I AM AN IDIOT!!!!

Please ignore my first post to this thread. The book I was referring to was The DaVinci Deception, not The DaVinci Code. I have not read The DaVinci Code. Please forgive my confusion and utter idjithood. You may chuckle, snicker and point fingers in my general direction now.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 03:33 PM

The mental picture of Da Vinci sitting on Mr. H's coffee table beggars my descriptive powers. Heavens, man! At least offer him a chair!!

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: jimmyt
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 04:07 PM

BWL, I feel better now, having just finished the book and wondering just who the hell you were referring to with this Detective person!!!

I will cancel my appoointment for the electroshock treatment!!! Thanks for the clarification.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: hobbitwoman
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 08:21 PM

I have read The DaVinci Code - thought it was a great book, interesting mystery and lots of intriguing theories as well. I wouldn't say the "information" was 100% accurate, but then it is a work of fiction and it's been a long time since a book actually had me looking stuff up on the internet, as this one did! I just started Angels and Demons today - seems like it will be another good one (and yes, I know it preceded The DaVinci Code).

As for the Detective - I think BWL is referring to the French police detective who pops into the story occasionally and has a cameo appearance at the end. I didn't think he figured much into things either.

Annie

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 08:44 PM

Bruce:

Go get the DaVinci Code and you'll be glad you did. Honest!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: jimmyt
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 08:57 PM

Bruce, keep in mind thgat Amos just called me a mother folker on another thread

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 09:23 PM

Jimmy:

Ya gotta include the context, man!!

You put Mother Folking on the table. My contribution was totally derivative!! :>))

A

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 09:41 PM

On the TABLE?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 09:51 PM

Well that's a mighty fine figure -- of speech -- for an old Mother Folker...

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: jimmyt
Date: 02 Sep 03 - 10:34 PM

You have spent too much time at Black's Beach!!!

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: harpgirl
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 07:56 AM

Well, I read it and found it quite imaginative! I'll have to have some coffee before I make any comments, though!

It did inspire me to find the Last Supper online and to scrutinize the individual on Jesus's right, said to be Mary Magdalene. The notion that she had Jesus child and that a direct line of descendents of Jesus exists and must be protected from annihilation by the Catholic church, in order to perserve it's power, is quite a radical idea, don't you think jimmyt?

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 07:58 AM

Y'all quit that folkin around.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: jimmyt
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 08:35 AM

Oh, yes, absolutely a very thin premise, Harpgirl. I guess I meant that it is a novel that uses a lot of theories that I was not aware of, ie the Last Supper image, I did the same thing, really studied the painting online, and found it to be quite a logical thought that this person did, in fact, seem to be a woman.

I guess it was a book that made me spend an awful lot of time searching the internet about lots of things that I was not aware even existed.   Perhaps I live in an isolated world.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: harpgirl
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 10:20 AM

It made me begin reading the "Chalice & The Blade once again...

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 05:39 PM

Davinci Code? just for the "crack" ?

I'll get my coat.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 06:06 PM

The cryptic wise-cracks are begun--thanks, Red!

A

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the Davinci Code?
From: michaelr
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 07:43 PM

harpgirl, check out "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" for in-depth research on the subject. The authors conclude that it's just possible that the Merovingians were Jesus' descendants. Fascinating stuff.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: The DaVinci Code
From: GUEST,T-tone
Date: 12 Nov 03 - 08:56 PM

Has anyone read this book. It's a splendid thriller (fiction) encompassing ideas of Paganism, Goddess Worship, The Christian Church, Secret Societies, and of course Leonardo DaVinci, who wrote backwards in all of his journals to avoid being emulated by his peers. The author thinks he did this also to veil ideas in conflict with the Catholic church and that ole Leo was part of a Secret Society called The Knights Templar. The themes in the book are undoubtedly provocative to the masses but hey, remember it's only art ok?

---

I moved this message here from another thread on the same topic.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: jimmyt
Date: 12 Nov 03 - 10:15 PM

guest, I also read another book by Dan Brown that precedes the DaVinci Code, takes place in and around the Vatican, and it was also very enjoyable. A good book to read if you have been to Rome or want to go is it discribes a lot of areas in Rome very well WOrth a read. It is called Angels and Demons, and spends a lot of time discussing the Illuminati.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 01:11 AM

I will give Brown full credit for history, research, creative imagination, conspiracy theories, etc.

But he sure doesn't know from women! He can't write romance, relationship or (a Bill the Cat ack! here) sex!

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 10:10 AM

I hope the average reader does take what he writes with a grain of salt as to its veracity. Authors of fiction who try to write with authority about secret societies, etc. irritate me. The politics of our society, right now, would have them all painted with the broad brush of conspiracy and that is wrong, imo.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: Deda
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 12:15 PM

I loved the book. I thought it was extremely thought-provoking, and his underlying "conspiracy theory" holds a lot more water, imho, than any more modern ideas about conspiracy of, say, the TriLateral Commission, etc. It's more than a little unlikely that so many murders (those in the book) would be committed in order to keep the lid on an historical secret that has already been disclosed pretty widely, though. Still, the fictional mystery stuff made it a great page-turner, and the material about the suppression of the feminine by the patriarchal Catholic church is fascinating, still very relevant and under-reported, but old news. If Mary Magdalene really was the most beloved and important of Jesus' followers, if the Church had allowed and acknowledged that, then women could obviously be deacons or priestesses or whatever, could hold any office up to and including Pope, and there would never have been any medieval conferences to address the burning question of whether women had souls. Millions of women would not have been burned at the stake. Women might not have had to struggle so hard to get political rights, personal rights, property rights, etc. History would have been very different.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 05:51 PM

Uncovered! The reason for Mona Lisa'a enigmantic smile:

While she was posing for the portrait, she noticed that Lennie had forgotten to tie his codpiece.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 07:02 PM

Leonardo was the first to invent the vibrator.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: fat B****rd
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 04:51 PM

I have "The DaVinci Code" on reserve at my local library. I am now looking forward to reading it more than ever. Thank you 'Catters.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: C-flat
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 07:50 AM

I started this book last night and couldn't put it down. Excellent!

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: C-flat
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 12:31 PM

Like some others here, I was provoked into a little on-line research by this book and found this site interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: jimmyt
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 12:40 PM

+If you enjoyed this book, I xan strongly recommend Angels and Demons! Another thriller that covers interesting albiet long shot theories, some art, archetecture, history et al. Same author

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: Penny S.
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 02:45 PM

I read it. Near the end I found that the only two things I knew about were wrong. This raises certain doubts.

What were they? KCL theology library is not now, nor ever has been, near the Houses of Parliament. Not without rewriting near. I don't even think it was in sight of them, though I need to check that.

KCL theology library is not structured as described.

Silly point. I am told that if dated a few years ago, it would have been in Sion House, with the Freemasons as landlords. Missed a good one there, didn't he?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: DougR
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 11:47 PM

I have not read the book, but since so many Mudcatters seemed to enjoy it, I'm wondering if it is a fictionalized report about George W. Bush's first visit to a library and his assumption that there really was something sinister behind the Mona Lisa's smile. Am I close?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 01:09 PM

Reviews say that the "theory" is advanced that the Mona Lisa is a self-portrait. Since the banker who bought it described his check as "payment for my wife's portrait" this does suggest a rather illicit situation...

No review that I've seen by anyone knowing much about art, technique or history, gives much credibility to his "conspiracies," although most credit him with having written a "fine fantasy."

Sort of like Patrick O'Brien's 20 novels about "life on the roarin' main" - by a man who was not only not Scots-Irish as he maintained for some 70 years, but who had never been to sea. (See article Master Storyteller in the Decemer 2003 Smithsonian.) Still reportedly good, and very "authentic sounding," tales.

John

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: GUEST,Frankham
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 12:22 PM

Read a book called "Bloodlines of the Holy Grail" which is corollary to "Da Vinci Code". It beats all those "Left Behind" books by a country mile.

Brings to question about the nature of organized religion. I believe it's basically a form of politics. But we need Tom Jefferson's wall now more than ever since now those in power want to evangelize the prison system to save money on legitimate therapy and job training.

But it's interesting to know about Knight's Templar, Merovingian and Langadoc cultures (not spelling these right). It's also interesting that King Arthur was Catholicized.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 11:44 AM

Hope it is okay to resurrect this thread. I wasn't reading the Da Vinci code because it was only available in hard cover in the States for the longest time. Then I drove across country and obtained an audio version. I really really didn't like it so if you're going to be offended by criticism stop reading now.

Number one, Digital Fortress was available in paperback, so I did read that and I found it unimaginative, containing the appearance of depth and cleverness but not itself those virtues. The puzzles weren't that good, you only thought they were because he told you so. Towards the end he even changed the laws of physics in order to fit in with one of the clues he'd provided earlier. And the writing was frankly juvenile.

Now, I'm at a bit of a disadvantage comparing Digital with Da Vinci when i only heard Da Vinci, but I think it's pretty clear the author's writing improved a great deal from one book to the other. Otherwise, listening to it, I noticed how little action there really was. The main characters all have unique backgrounds which enable them to educate the others (and us readers) in long bouts of conversation which are actually monologues. The characters are not particularly unique. You've got your average American hero, a well educated product of the middle class with stellar IQ and linebacker reflexes, lovely daughter of a dead character who sparks the action, evil (or misunderstood) entity from a huge institution, plodding copper, eccentric English boffin, and a cast of supporting characters that have cropped up in potboilers and summer flicks for generations. Because of my experience with 'Digital fortress' I very much doubt there is any thorough research in the screed.

So much of its cleverness was of the self-manufactured and congratulatory kind. The plot was more or less a simple chase with herrings thrown all over the place, and the conclusion was quite unsatisfying. It took away the entire premise, in fact.

There are worse books and writers who have gone on to popularity. The unreadable Stephen Donaldson is my bete noir. but I came to the conclusion this was a really pedestrian work. I can understand it as entertainment. but if I had been doing anything other than driving for days, I would have left it unfinished, and that is unusual for me. I can only conclude that its great popularity came from the supposedly daring religious concepts that were used as filler material. I don't see how anyone at the Vatican could lose a minute's sleep over it, but Da Vinci may have rotated a couple times.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: Maija
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 11:54 AM

I have read two other books by Dan Brown, and whilst I enjoyed the first one (Illuminati), the second one, Meteor, bored the sleeping duck out of me (good riddance, but anyhow). I got the da Vinci Code for Xmyth, and promptly returned it - did I make a mistake? Is the book just along the same lines as the other two books by the author, or is it actually worth reading?

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: *Laura*
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 01:43 PM

I just read a (fictional) book called 'Mary called Magdalene' which was really interesting but I didn't agree with some of the stuff in it.
I think I'd like to get hold a a copy of the DaVinci Code...

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 01:55 PM

For a high res look at the painting, GO HERE

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: C-flat
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 02:54 PM

The theory that the Holy Grail is actually the blood-line of Jesus has been around for some time. Baigent and Leigh had a best-seller in the 1980s with "The Holy Blood and The Holy Grail". They do make a convincing and well-documented case, receiving wide acclaim, although the ecclesiastical authorities were unimpressed and damning in their criticism.
After reading "The Davinci Code" I was interested to catch up on Dan Browns' other works but found them fairly lightweight and definately not in the same league.

C-flat.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 05:23 PM

From most posts the vital piece of information is mising: Havwe they read it (and enjoyed it) as a work of fiction or as a report?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 06:31 PM

My best friend was reading it while we vacationed in Mazatlan. Every once in a while she would throw it down in disgust because it was so "over the top" in presenting an entirely fictional history. She couldn't put it down though because it was generally a good read. I wanted it next but her daughter got it before me. I'm still waiting.

I will read it with a large grain of salt. I am interested in anything that includes the Cathars. Of course, the Catholic church has been very successful at suppressing that part of history. Genocide is pretty ugly and doesn't fit the image of benevolent Christianity.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 07:25 PM

I read it and couldnt put it down.

I have read Holy Blood and Holy Grail a few years ago - this was a much more enjoyable way of getting the same information.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 08:13 PM

Just a great read. I could not put it down---finished in 2 days. Must get a life.   Seriously---a wonderful whodunit---nothing more. One of the best.

Many people tell me that Angels and Demons (I think that is the title---and have not read it---an earlier piece ) is even better.

The death of the chaufer--near the end was a great twist. I wonder if a med examiner could or would. Forget TV


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: jimmyt
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 08:37 PM

I am glad to see some of the last few responses. I read it and enjoyed it a lot, and was beginning to think I was the only person here that must be completely shallow in my reading interests. I did not take it as a definitive work about CHristianity but thought it was a good read. It was most definately over the top, but fun to read nontheless.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 09:58 PM

I believe the working title for the book was "The Hardy Boys - All Growed Up." Put me in robomatic's column. (I enjoyed turning the pages through to the end, to a completely unsatisfying consequence.)

(But I LOVE the curry theory for the Mona Lisa.)

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 10:05 PM

While I haven't read the book (and probably won't), I've seen some discussion of it. My direct comment on the book would be second hand.

Some may wish to pursue further research, and the following links may be helpful:

ArtCyclopedia: Leonardo indexes numerous sites where good images of works by Leonardo are available. Those at the top of the listings are typically museums that will have images only for works in their own collections. For those wanting a broader "quick look," the "Pictures from Image Archives" near the bottom will probably be more productive. I haven't looked at all of them recently, but from past visits I can particularly recommend the Web Gallery of Art and Art Renewal, simply because they generally have images with good resolution, reasonable identifications, and their images are downloadable if you wish to save them for study.

Reviews of the book, and comments above, make much of the "feminine" appearance of the disciple on Jesus' right in Leonardo's Last Supper, and I presume that is of some major significance in the book. One must question how much credibility should be given to "Last Supper" images found at many web sites.

Web Gallery of Art offers, at the page for Leonardo works in the 1490s, the period of The Last Supper:

"LEONARDO da Vinci, Italian painter (b. 1452, Vinci, d. 1519, Cloux, near Amboise)
Leonardo's main artistic undertakings in Milan were a project for a huge equestrian statue to Ludovico Sforza's father, and the wall-painting of the Last Supper in the refectory of Santa Maria delle Grazie. The fresco method of mural painting was not flexible or subtle enough for the slow-working Leonardo, so he adopted an experimental technique that quickly caused the picture to deteriorate disastrously. It has been many times restored, but although it is only a shadow of Leonardo's original creation it still retains some of the immense authority that has made it the most revered painting in the world."
(italics added).

The two images of The Last Supper on the WGA 1490s page show rather deteriorated views, in which it is difficult to make out any real details of the face in question. No dates for the images/photos are given, but the images obviously come from sometime after the development of color photography.

Probably the same two images (lots of trading goes on) appear at Art Renewal: Leonardo page 1 and are represented there as "before" and "after" one of the many restorations of the painting.

The "pristine" images found at many web sites, and reproduced in prints and paintings (velvet and otherwise) likely come from "other" sources, rather then from the original fresco. Many paintings once attributed to Leonardo are now considered to be the work of his many, mostly unnamed, pupils. An example of a "student's copy" of The Last Supper may be seen at Page 6 of Leonardo at ARC. The same image, identical in file size, appears, identified as Leonardo's own work, at several "web museums," not always identified to the known "owners" at the Da Vinci Museum, Tongerlo, Italy.

Given the numerous "restorations" of The Last Supper, many of which were apparently done by unknown artists and at unknown times, one fanciful "explanation" is that a later artist replaced a "missing" face on the feminized disciple, copying from Leonardo's study La Scapigliata (The Lady of the Dishevelled Hair), shown as "Female head" at Page 2 of Leonardo at ARC (Also called "Testa di Faniciulla" by some print galleries.) The only "evidence" for this is that it's a "face" by Leonardo that "looks in the same direction" as the "missing disciple." This drawing is identified as being made by Leonardo in 1508, approximately 20 years after the original Last Supper, and might have been available to an artist, perhaps even a Leonardo student, asked to "fix it up" when the original face fell off the wall, although it is "dated" a few years after the copy. (Few dates relating to Leonardo are really certain?)

An additional image possibly of interest is the Study for the Last Supper done by Leonardo ca. 1494 – 1495, about 4 years before the painting was done, at image 7 on Page 10 of Leonardo at ARC. This Red Chalk drawing, currently held at Galleria degli Uffizi, Florence, Italy, shows about the right number of disciples, none of whom look particularly feminine, although the poses are slightly different than those used in the actual painting.

A last suggestion: the quite famous Self Portrait by Leonardo, back at the first ARC page, although done when he was about 60 doesn't look to me like he ever looked like Mona. (He has eyebrows, she doesn't, if nothing else – of course maybe he shaved when he was younger.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: michaelr
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 11:42 PM

I recommend that anyone who's interested in whatever real history may lie behind TDVC read "Holy Blood, Holy Grail", which summarizes a serious scientific inquiry into the subject.

The point is not about the Grail myth, or Leonardo's idiosyncracies, but the systematic suppression and persecution of the female power and symbology (which we inherit from pagan times) by the Catholic Church. It can be argued that no other power grab has been as damaging to the evolution of mankind as a species as the forced change from a matriarchal to a patriarchal society.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: Davetnova
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 03:28 AM

I started reading this last night,as fiction, not too sure sofar some of it seems a bit tenuous.
As an aside, one of the drawbacks of this books publication is that you can no longer visit Rosslyn Chapel without being part of an offical tour.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 06:35 AM

It is a page turner, albeit with questionable suppositions and "facts". Nonetheless I read it cover to cover in about a day and a half. Wasn't nuts with how it ended, but enjoyed it.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 08:43 AM

I enjoyed it so much I read all Dan Brown's other books. No-one should judge him against any of the 'great' writers as he is writing a thriller, an erudite one perhaps, but a thriller nonetheless. Aside from the twists and turns of the plot, what is compelling is how much he causes you to question what is true and what is not. Yes the plot is preposterous but it is entertainment after all.

Angels and Demons, set in the Vatican, is even more preposterous but IMO is even better.

Digital Fortress and the other one about the meteorite are pedestrian by comparison

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 08:54 AM

I read DaVinci and A&D between Christmas and New Year. Enjoyed them both as thrillers. Agree that the plot in A&D is a bit silly. Enjoyed the alternate views on various things in both of them - very refreshing indeed. Remember though that these controversies have always gone on and always will. That is the way of history (and art!). Unless you were actualy there or inside the mind of the artist you will never know what happened or what they had in mind. Even well documented events have a way of becoming coloured by the eye of the documenter!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: GUEST,Sooz (at work)
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 09:08 AM

I've just read Deception Point as well (to complete the set) and I thought they were all a good read. Refreshingly different - don't have a problem with the difference between reality and a story!

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 10:17 AM

Well, after having thoroughly embarrassed myself when this thread originally popped up by saying I had read "DaVinci Code" when I had, in fact, read another book with "DaVinci" in the title, I am now able to say that, yes, I have read the thing. In fact, I've read three of Dan Brown's books. Am I impressed? Not tremendously. One would think that, considering that "DaVinci Code" is possibly the most successful publishing venture in the history of popular literature, it would be a cut above most thriller fiction. It's not. I read a fair amount of low-brow fiction courtesy of a friend regularly giving me paperbacks by the box-load. If not for the hoopla surrounding it, "DaVinci Code" would be as forgettable as anything else in the box.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: C-flat
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 11:26 AM

I read, on another forum, that Michael Baigent is suing Dan Brown for using large tracts of his research from "The Holy Blood And The Holy Grail" in the writing of "The DaVinci Code"
I would very much doubt that there is any chance of Baigent being successful but it won't do the sales of his book any harm.

Interestingly, the books in question start from opposing positions, one claiming to be factual, but to many, verging on the fictional, while the other claims to be fiction while using real organisations and historical facts to appear more factual.

C-flat.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 11:58 AM

I think the Da Vinci Code is a cut-above most thriller fiction not in its plot complexity, certainly not in its character development, but in its perceived 'high-brow' topic and one which so many people have a view on i.e. religion.

There are better thriller writers (Ludlum for example) but the fact that so many of us have gone out and read his other books says a lot about how enjoyable his books are. For me, Da Vinci... and Angels and Demons were grat fun to read, no more than that really, while the other two were pants. But I still finished them.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: GUEST,Com Seangan
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 12:09 PM

Yeah The author made a nice few dollars on the venture. But the idea theme of Jesus Mary Magdalen has been around for centuries and nothing to substantiate it. But any book thatmakes people think is a good book. Anyone read Hamlet ?

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: pdq
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 12:39 PM

I refuse to read 'Hamlet' until someone translates it into English!

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: alison
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 07:06 PM

I loved the Da Vinci Code - one of the few books I've read in years that was "unoutdownable" - but like Mick I thought the ending was a bit wimpy.

Iread DVC before I read Angels and Demons (the first in the series), and while I enjoyed A&D it was a lot slower to get going....

there are a few sites out there where you can "break the code" by answering clues based on things in the book - unfortunately a lot of them have to do with the cover which was obviously different for the Oz publication....


slainte

alison

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 07:24 PM

Hi Alison,

Could tell you an interesting story about the Da Vinci code that everyone tells me is true, but:
I'm more interested in thread from a few years back.
Have you or anyone else got a midi file for 'The Laughing Policeman?' by Charles Penrose? It's just that getting sheet music (no pun) is difficult in London these days, and I've got a short deadline that will test my ear...there's more to that arrangement that meets the first listen....

Best.

Anyone interested please post links in reply:

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 07:26 PM

one claiming to be factual

About Mary Magdalene and the Holy Grail?

Who is he trying to kid?;-)

Like you said, won't do sales any harm...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 08:52 PM

I just finished reading the Illustrated version of the Da Vinci Code
and it is a real treat to have pictures of the paintings and places that are mentioned in the book. (the story does draw a lot on the Holy Blood Holy Grail theories) I think even of the Characters is called Sauniere
in both books. It is a fun read, although its written a bit like screenplay. As if you expect it to be made into a movie (which I think they are doing)

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 09:08 PM

I read it about a year agao and have since read Angels and Demons and Digital Fortress.

Whilst the premise of the Da Vinci Code is based on fairly shaky ground it did start me thinking about how much of what we believe has been manipulated in one way or another.

Reading that book, and the Pullman trilogy, started me thinking very seriously about my own beliefs, a process that has led to a real sense of place over the past year.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: rich-joy
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 03:26 AM

- haven't felt compelled yet to read the book (went through the Holy Blood & Holy Grail / Messianic Legacy ones, some years ago), but I am interested in reading of The Cathars - does it cover much of them???

There is also a Music thread current, asking for details of a song about Beziers - can anyone help???

Cheers!
R-J

Also, 'catters may enjoy Michele Roberts' "The Wild Girl" - for another take on Mary Mag.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 10:54 AM

A whole tourist industry has developed around the book. People are shelling out thousands to be shown around the various clues. A TV spot on this showed a group of middle aged Americans with their books in hand as well as their highlighters carefully documenting their trip. Seems a bit pathetic to me. But i haven't read it yet.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 01:26 PM

This is an odd book as it keeps one turning the pages in spite of how bad a novel it is> As a writer Mr. is truly dreadful, his plot eludes him at times, his characters are flimsy and his prose is juvenile. The History is often terribly wrong and he uses facts to support ridiculous theories. But he's made millions by assuming that we don't know any better and that is what is so dishonest about his book.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: Davetnova
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 03:41 AM

I don't think I'll be finishing this. This has nothing to do with conspiracies or sacred secrets, it's just really badly written.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 08:03 AM

Dan Brown is hardly 'dishonest'. It is fiction. It says so on the cover. You have a choice. It is entertainment, after all.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: C-flat
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 09:37 AM

With regard to my earlier post concerning a possible law suit against Dan Brown from the authors of "The Holy Blood And The Holy Grail".
It seems that Baigent and Leigh are miffed that their research has been lifted wothout so much as an acknowledgement from Mr.Brown.
So I wonder how much more annoyed they'll be when they realise that one of the central characters "Sir Leigh Teabing" is an anagram of their names!
Surely no coincidence?

C-flat.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 11:05 AM

I'm going to have a look at the temple church on Saturday. Hope there are no albino monks about...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 04:10 PM

First, the book is not poorly written; secondly, the plot moves forward beautiful ( surely praise from top writers and critics is proof of that); thirdly, I can only assume that those who critise the book do so from a defensive religious position - and well they might, condsidering the "revelations" incorporated into the book.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: michaelr
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 12:23 AM

C-flat -- do you think it possible that they haven't noticed?

How obvious could you get?

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 01:06 AM

Yes, the book is badly written. Brown seems to know nothing about French law or police procedures; nothing of forensics or evidence collection. The book is more or less one long cliff hanger. It's full of logical and factual blunders. Badly written? By professional standards, yes. Living proof that reading is a vanishing art.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 05:57 AM

Forget the Fench law criticism. Surely, the point is that - in the story - very powerful forces are manipulating events - including the work of the police. It amazes me that, when people don't like the contains of a book, they immediately cry " badly written" in an attempt to devalue it.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: Davetnova
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 06:11 AM

Tunesmith. - The reason I bought the book is that I thought the story looked interesting, but as someone else points out it is written more as a screenplay. I can only speak for the first 200 pages but so far the characters (perhaps I should say names as they are so poorly developed) seem to act incomprehensibly with no explanation for their actions. This may work in a film where there are visual clues but in a book it's more a question of Wha'? As for the "mysteries" and the "powerful forces" explored I think there are better explanations/explorations. I am NOT a christian but would never denigrate anothers beliefs. It may be meant only as entertainment, and if so it fails to entertain me. It is poorly written.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 08:52 AM

It may be meant only as entertainment, and if so it fails to entertain me. It is poorly written.

Well, that does it for me! I can now honestly say I don't like Thomas Hardy, Charles Dickens and Shakespeare because they are poorly written! Does it apply to music as well? If so most opera's and jazz must be bad enough to send me to sleep...;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 10:54 AM

Tunesmith:
In drama they use the phrase "a willing suspension of disbelief." That is the process that lets the viewer (or reader) enter the action as if it were happening in the real world. It's necessary that there not be too many places where the viewer/reader stops and says "Hold it. That just can't happen that way." In genre writing, like mysteries, the restrictions are a little more severe because the target readers are expected to know a little about the procedures involved. Out of the 3 or 4 thousand mysteries I've read in my life, I can remember only one that was worse than The DaVinci Code. It was so bad that the writer published it at his own expense and sent copies to booksellers with no return address.

As to why the reviewers liked it, one can only assume it was a mix of politics and economics.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 11:00 AM

Tunesmith:

It's pretty badly written. See my comments above. If you mean it got good reviews, you must be referring to the 'blurbs on the book itself. The plot self destructs. I have absolutely no religious agenda rather I hate having my time wasted. Maybe you have a vested interest in it being more than (poor) fiction. That's fine, but defend your argument!

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 03:41 PM

I'll admit that the book isn't the best example of prose that I've ever read BUT, it is written in a style that suits the story. I read it, and enjoyed it, even though I couldn't invest any emotion in to it i.e. I don't have any time for Christianity or any "alternative" version of Jesus' life. However, the writer, as far as I'm concerned, does create a pausible world in which he sets his story. Some posters have said that the characters act in incomprehensible ways. Well of course they - the characters - would wouldn't they, considering the fact that the central character, for example, gets thrown in to a series of frightening episodes that he struggles desperately to understand. That's a major part of the story's dramatic impact i.e. the hero's attempt to make sense of the unfolding events.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: Nemesis
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 05:49 PM

What You Didn't Miss, Pt 94
The Da Vinci Code

Chapter 94.
"Don't you see?" explained the good-looking Harvard Professor to the beautiful French police cryptologist. "If we can solve the riddle we can find out the true meaing of all this."

They looked at the ancient text again hoping to find the four letter word concealed in the enigmatic poem which would open the door to Leonardo Da Vinci's bank account:
"Bishop to the Ancients
   but changed to Hebrew
   Lose the old knights
and there's your clue"

"Hang on", said the queeny old English art historian who was there for some reason as well, "I've got it."

The others turned to him in awe. "Don't you remember the old aramaic word for bishop, 'Toshiba', which when written in Hebrew script loses the the last letter a?"

"Yes", said the Harvard professor suddenly getting the idea. "And 'ib' looks like the mystical figure 16, which was the number of Merovingian knights protecting the original Holy Grain who where killed by Pope Incedible the Seventh in 1242"

"Yes", chimed in the sexy French police officer, "so, if you remove the 'ib' and the 'a' from 'Toshiba' you get 'Tosh'."

"Which is exactly what this is (cont. p. 994)

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: Nemesis
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 05:56 PM

Sorry for typos above .. (v.tired!!)

forgot to add:

This review(?) from 'Private Eye' was light relief when I was researching the book and background for a broadcast interview between the UK head of Opus Dei and a leading expert on the Gnostic Gospels.

:0)
cheers
Nem

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: jimmyt
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 06:10 PM

For the last few naysayers who insist this is a poorly written book, please publish your list of future poorly written books as soon as possible so I can invest in the publishers. I can agree that there in implausibility in the book, but to insist it is such a poorly written book is a little hard to grasp.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 09:07 PM

Jimmyt:

Take a look at what I said at 10:54 and earlier. To repeat, if a book is going to take place in the real world, it's standard practice to make the action and background as real as the plot will allow. In the case of genre books (This is a mystery. Remember?) It's normal to do a little research on procedures and techniques. For an example of one of the many blunders, the main detective - The Bull - would not be in charge of the investigatio.n, In France; a Magistrate would be in charge. This makes a lot of the things the Bull does illegal. Understand?

I've heard that once a writer produces a best seller, the editors are afraid to say anything about his next book. This seems to be an example of that. The fact that it made a lot of money does not mean that it is a good book. Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 06:45 AM

"The fact that it made a lot of money does not mean that it is a good book"....and it doesn't mean it isn't either.

It's fun arguing about our different opinions but please let's not mistake that for believing that one is 'right' and one is 'wrong'.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: Scooby Doo
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 04:15 PM

wont read it again

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 04:32 PM

Dear All:
I am having way too much fun arguing my point BUT I am happy to hear from tunesmith and jimmyt and learn their opinions and question mine. That's why I'm here.

The worst published author of recent memory for me is 'Stephen R. Donaldson' who wrote a long apprently popular series about a leper who visits other dimensions. I only ever looked at the first book in the series. The next worse was a guy named 'Norman' I think, who wrote a series of books in the 60's and maybe 70's that take place on the world of Gor and seem to be totally absorbed in reducing 'woman' back to her proper place as subservient sex slave to 'man'. I was never able to tease out a plot from any of those books, nor any respectable sex scenes, either, so I drew the conclusion that 'woman' was to be in readiness to be a sex slave whenever Norman learned to right one. Impatitient youth that I was, I transferred my attention to the well thumbed greasy pages of Cain novels. The women there were more assertive, thank God.

As a kid, I loved reading sci fi, and one of the first books I went out and bought was about a blob, or a thing, which came from outer space and began to eat things, starting small with cats and dogs, working its way up to 'crowd control'. The pages flipped by my young nose, the thing grew bigger, more implacable. I began to notice that the final chapter was coming up quick, the thickness of the final section growing thin, how was this horrible critter going to be put down. Or was the world going to end? Was the author going to present this book as the last one to be published as the engorged land leviathon became a world encasing amoeba? He wasn't going to have it succumb to the germs of the world, I was green, but I knew my H. G. Wells. Well, no, infact. On the next to the last page of this work, the leaders of the world got all the people of the world to get on their knees and pray....Thunder from the sky, a chorus of angels, and the beast from space died.

I didn't know what "Deus Ex Machina" meant, nor the more appropriate "Shaggy Dog Story" but I knew when I'd been cheated big time. I'm hot just writing this.

So it's probably no surprise that i don't think much of the LeHaye series about Revelations: "Left Behind". The receptionist at work loved 'em, and she and I shared an appreciation of Harry Potter, but I couldn't get into 'Left Behind'. Part of it was no sympathy for the plot, but in addtion to that as works of writing, they 'parroted', they 'told', they did not 'show'.

Back to Brown. While waiting for Da Vinci to come out in paperback a neighbor kid leant me his earlier work Digital Fortress, and having some residual respect for me despite his teen years, he assured me I wouldn't like it. it began okay with death in a public place, but rapidly devolved into a lot of descriptive 'set-up' verbage, and my opinion of it went down on a steady slope until the end when in order to break the final code of the dead man, if I remember this right, the wording went that the second atomic bomb wasn't really made of plutonium but a different kind of uranium, so Brown was changing the laws of physics as a plot device. My opinion of his work hit bottom.

As mentioned in an earlier post, I 'listened to' rather than read, Da Vinci. It was a pretty long recording, i don't think it was abridged. It spent too much time telling me how clever it was, rather than showing me any real cleverness. The scientist philospher with pulchritudenous (grand)daughter is a cliche. The dead scientist philosopher who arranged his limbs to match Da Vinci's famous illustrated man put me in mind of old man Burns being shot at the end of a Simpsons season. Religious sects with killer acolytes is a cliche. And Brown not only trotted out the cliches, getting us all ready to accept the evil Roman Catholic Church's hidden stormtroopers (Ever read 'Another Roadside Attraction'?) but in the last pages he takes it all back. (But not really, apparently the church did engineer a fatal automobile accident which resulted in the French Merovingian family being split up without an adequate explanation to the young 'uns, ie. the pretty grand-daughter).

There may be some mistakes in my post, I"m not going back to the book to check my memory!

As to the quality of the writing, it's not as bad as the books I've mentioned above by other writers. But it's not too good. I'd say it's almost Tom Clancy class, not John Grisham class, and way not John Le Carre. And all those latter named guys know how to plot, which I'm not convinced Brown does.

Hey, I've just proven I'm no writer. Forgive me for the logorhea, but this is one time I'm gonna hit 'submit' and let fly.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: jimmyt
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 05:00 PM

drift here but does anyone else have my affliction... If I start a book, and am not in to it I continue reading becaues I somehow think the author is probably clever or at least more than me and eventually he will pull it all together in some Dickensian way and I will finally appreciate it. In fact, many times I feel used at the end and determine that it is a piece of crap and I was right all along. But then I do it over. Am I the only one who does not trust their own literary judgment?

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 09:16 AM

Nope - if I can't get into a book and get some sort of feel for the characters it just doesn't interest me. In fact, I tried reading Hemingway's 'For Whom The Bell Tolls' a few years ago but disliked the book so much I ended up chucking out the window. Life's too short to waste on stuff you can't get into.

Subject: RE: BS: anyone read the DaVinci Code?
From: 42
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 09:28 AM

The Gor books are representative of the worst of pulp fiction and I'm on side with the Stephen R. Donaldson as well.

For new fantasy/SF you can't beat (IMHO)anything by Guy Gavrial Kay - characters who make you care, action that weaves reality and fantasy seamlessly and twists that leave you breathless.

The three books in his Fionavar Trilogy were his first efforts and Tigana is one of my "desert island" reads...if there is such a thing.

jen