BS: Brave US soldier in Canada

Subject: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: InOBU
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 07:09 PM

It turns out, in order to deal with the fact that military polls show the majoirity of US soldiers in Iraq are open about their low moral, there are 15 day leaves being granted. A large number of US soldiers are not coming back from their leaves. One was interviewed in Canada. He said he can't sleep thinking about the people he killed, and he is tired of being shot at. His is real bravery. The bravery to do the right thing at the risk of your freedom. Bless him.
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: Gareth
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 07:12 PM

I am glad to see that he can justify his actions.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 07:33 PM

Where can I read the interview, and has it been validated that this person is really a soldier on leave?

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: InOBU
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 07:41 PM

It was on NBC 6:30 news. Perhaps it is on line on NBC's web, I think his name was Roper. Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: InOBU
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 07:46 PM

http://www.sunspot.net/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-te.soldier26oct26,0,3871536.story?coll=bal-iraq-headlines


Here is the address above, and a bit of the piece to wet the appitite..
By Scott Calvert
Sun Foreign Staff
Originally published April 11, 2003



NAJAF, Iraq - The three hand-drawn feathers on the back of Pfc. Tyrone Roper's Kevlar helmet are not the idle doodles of a bored soldier. They are marks of a killer.

Roper, a 26-year-old soft-featured Native American from Canada, has three confirmed kills in the war with Iraq, more than any other member of the 3rd Battalion, 327th Infantry Regiment.

His battlefield feats have made him something of a star in Bravo Company.

The comrades who came up with the feather idea pat him on the back, call him Savage and say they wish they could do what he did.

Again and again, they ask how it feels to drop an enemy soldier with a pointed 5.56 mm bullet the length of a man's pinky finger.

Around them he will flash a smile and speak with pride of doing what he had to do, and doing it well. Quietly, though, he will admit he has been thinking about the people whose lives he ended.

It's not guilt exactly, just a recognition that however bad these men may have been, however eager they were to kill him with an AK-47 assault rifle, they were people.

"The next day, I started to feel I killed someone, took away somebody's grandfather, somebody's father, somebody's son," he says, lying in the sand during a down period. "I kind of felt how my wife would feel if I never came home."

Shooting to kill is an elemental part of an infantryman's job description. It is, as any number of soldiers will remind you, what they are trained to do. A doctor is taught to save people, soldiers are taught to kill them. And because soldiers on the other side can be expected to think the same, it is kill or be killed as far as they are concerned.

Yet the vast majority of soldiers in this 700-person battalion have never killed anyone. Before the war, most had never been shot at by anyone, had never shot at anyone, had never seen real combat.

'You're doing your job'

Now that they are here in the combat zone, soldiers are reflecting on what it means to kill.

Only Bravo Company's troops have killed combatants for certain - a dozen or so plus two caught in crossfire. Alpha and Charlie, the other two companies, have had firefights, but if any enemy soldiers fell it was not clear, says Lt. Col. Ed Palekas, the commander.

There sits Roper with not one, not two, but three feathers on his helmet.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: InOBU
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 07:51 PM

A bit more from the article above...
'Decided to take off'

April Roper, a slender 26-year-old woman with almond-shaped glasses and long, dark hair, said her husband seemed excited to be home when he returned in the summer. They live on Dixie Road, a leafy neighborhood of Fort Campbell military housing.

When he saw their children, now 6 and 3, he started to cry. Within 10 days, he got worse. His wife saw a "look in his eyes" she had never seen and still cannot describe. He would bolt upright in bed and stay awake for hours. Once, she woke to see him staring at her strangely. "I grabbed him around the neck and said, 'Please, let's go to bed.' "

He never went into detail about what happened to him in the war, and she never asked. But he told her "he could see things still, the horrific things he had seen. He said he'd hear screaming."

She felt helpless: "How can you help somebody you can't relate to or understand what is happening?"

At least, she felt, his soldier days were about to end. The Army was "chaptering" him out, meaning he would once again be just Citizen Roper. Then he disappeared, failing to report to duty Oct. 7. Since then, the Army has considered him absent without leave.

"He was in the process of clearing when he decided to take off," said Sgt. 1st Class Mark Hess.

April Roper last spoke to her husband from the Canadian border the night before he disappeared. She'd driven 20 hours north to see her sick grandmother, taking the children. She and her husband had been arguing about something, she said, so they didn't talk long. Over the next few days she learned from a sergeant that her husband had left the base.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 07:53 PM

Not on MSNBC or ABC, not on NPR, can't find it on AP or UPI, and I don't watch TV. Please let me know if you run across a link.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 07:57 PM

Yeah, the cannon fodder is startin' to figure it out... Body bags from the eworkin' class comin' home while *cash* bags going to the ruling class....

Don't take the Wes Ginny slide rule to tell ya' which way the wind blows....

Wait 'til smoke settles after this little rip off of the American workin' class, not to mention the Iraqi people, and Bush and his neo-cons will need some thick walls to hide behind with their friggin' money...

Good on anyone who wants quit this crap and if ya' need a place to crash, let me know.....

Resist the anti-human bullsh*t!!!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 08:12 PM

If he's from Canada what was he doing in the US Army in the first place? Wouldn't that class him as a mercenary?

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: InOBU
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 08:15 PM

No, a lot of working class guys join the US army to get citizenship, I suppose it is some kind of mercenarism or international poverty draft. Jim Power, the great Irish mosaic artist in New York became a US citizen after going to Nam. Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: Gareth
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 08:30 PM

Three feathers ? White ones ? Sorry Larry not credible without the links.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: InOBU
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 08:47 PM

FOLKS!!! THE LINK IS AT THE TOP OF THE ARTICLE!!!!!!!!!!!!! Also, just google Roper, Canada, Iraq and Soldier!
all the best
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 09:00 PM

I wasn't putting him down for being a mercenary, by reason of fighting in another country's army - my father fought in the British army in the Second World War, even though Ireland was neutral. My meaning was, wouldn't it be likely to put him into the definition of "mercenary".

If he got captured by some country operating the same rules as the USA surely he'd have been likely to be classed as "an illegal combatant"?

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 09:31 PM

I thought Canada wasn't going to take US deserters and draft dodgers after their experiences during VN. Of course, if he is a Canadian citizen, that might be different. US citizens would most likely be extradited home, and there are no draft dodgers this time.

Poor chap. Why didn't he go for counseling? It's available.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: InOBU
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 09:33 PM

Gotta point there! US news is always speaking of how we are fighting forieners in Iraq (other forieners than us...) cheers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: mack/misophist
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 09:47 PM

Most countries do it. I know for a fact that the US, England, and Italy do it.
    When I was in high school, one of the teachers was drafted by the English abd US Armies simultaneously.
    A friend of mine, an Italian born American citizen, used to have to sneak into Italy to visit his relatives because, under Italian law, he was a draft dodger.
    Another friend, a German, was drafted by the English Army while living in England.
    Yet another friend, an American born citizen, was drafted by the Aussies while living there.
    The US had, and may still have, for all I know, a treaty with the Philippines that allowed Philippine nationals to get US citizenship by joining the US Navy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 09:53 PM

Yeah, I saw the piece on NBC news tonight. They did a poll of those US soldiers who are in Iraq and the news ain't good fir Bush and Rumsey... The workin' class folks (which equates to 100% of the forces) who are over there are gettin' a little fed up with a war that is increasingly seen as nuthin' more than yet another PR stunt by an evil and theivin' administration....

Hmmmmmmm? I wonder how long it's gonna take Joe Sixpack to figure the same thing out... Probably never.... Too busy watchin' NASCAR cars go round and round and round and round and round and....

.... the beat goes on.....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: NicoleC
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 10:00 PM

Go in for counselling? The last guy that tried that is getting courtmartialled instead for "cowardice." This is NOT how our boys and girls deserve to be treated.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: michaelr
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 10:12 PM

Remember seeing on TV the flag-draped coffins coming back from Vietnam? Anyone notice you haven't seen any of that lately? That's because the Resident put the kibosh on such images... they can't be shown, can't even be taped, anymore. The bastards know that seeing that will get the American public upset, and make them question the legitimacy of this war. Can't have that, now, can we?

Bush has not attended a single military funeral of any of the kids he's getting killed over there. The most courageous, and the only morally defensible, course of action for any of them is to desert.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: Amos
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 10:46 PM

The most courageous, and the only morally defensible, course of action for any of them is to desert.


IF you believed you were actually restraining anarchy while a renewed civilization was being set up, wouldn't you feel it was moral to stay?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 10:57 PM

Sounds like he was only a day or two short of being discharged, so a desertion charge is unlikely. I hope he gets the medical treatment he needs, and it is possible (but complicated) to get it in Canada at VA expense.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 11:08 PM

Michael:

Apparently you have not heard. The Bush folks have a "gag order" on showing any coffins.... This is fir real... You won't see any... No way...

Once the remains have been returned to the family then all's fair... But no coffins coming out of Iraq! None....

Hey, PR folks orders... And we're spendon' millions and millions of our tax dollars on George Bush's friggin' PR folks so, hey, you'd hate to not get yer money's worth, would ya?

Beam me up...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 31 Oct 03 - 12:31 AM

The Roper story was shown on CBC News tonight, and it was heartbreaking. He is a quiet, softspoken man who was obviously in deep distress. His mother was shown crying, saying his heart was shattered into a thousand pieces. He is returning to the US to face military punishment, followed by discharge.

He was apparently working on an oil rig in Texas when 9/11 occurred, and he was so appalled that he enlisted.

Sad, sad story. One of thousands, I suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: GUEST,Chip2447
Date: 31 Oct 03 - 01:38 AM

Lets see, VOLUNTEERED for the military, and wants out because of the job. TOUGH SHIT!!! He should have weighed the consquences before he signed the papers. Do your time, do your job, stand up for your word and the obligation that you made, then take your separation when it comes around. You don't like it, transfer to a non combat MOS.

He really didn't expect to ACTUALLY go to a combat zone did he?

Was he that close to his discharge date? If so, it was just plain stupidity.

Boot his ass back to Canada or give him a free ride in LEAVENWORTH for desertion.

CHIP2447

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 31 Oct 03 - 02:51 AM

Chip, accordiing to the story he did his time, did his job, and stood up for his word and his obligation. Killed more men than anyone in his outfit.

But killing humans who are much like themselves is hard for some men, and it's so hard that it's more than some of them can bear, and they break. Anyone -- anything -- will break under too much strain.

Even you.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: GUEST,Chip2447
Date: 31 Oct 03 - 03:25 AM

He hasnt been discharged yet, he VOLUNTEERED for the job. Anyone that joins the military thinking they may never have to go to war or into a combat situation failed to look at the big picture. There were outs available to him rather than DESERTION.

He got tired of doing his job, Big deal!!! He had an obligation, not only to the army, but to his unit as well.

OH, he's not responsible for his actions, he got tired of doing his job, a job that he volunteered to do, lets just absolve him of all responsibility. Hugs all around, lets make him feel good about deserting his friends because he couldnt handle it.

BULLSHIT!!! He had a responibiltiy to himself, to his unit, to the army, and to the government that he swore an oath to protect and defend and to follow the orders of his superiors.

Guess what, he should have thought about all of that before he got caught up in the post 9/11 hysteria. He should have looked over the the whole enchilada, not just the part about accelerated citizenship, or money for college. If you join the military you might have to kill someone. Big fat hairy deal. You spend your money you takes your chances. If you dont want to run that risk join the Peace Corps.

RANT SWITCH TO THE O-F-F position...rant off...

Chip2447

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: kendall
Date: 31 Oct 03 - 07:39 AM

"I was only following orders." (Nazi war criminals)

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Oct 03 - 08:20 AM

Members of the Armed Forces of the US, Chip and others, do not take an oath to support the government.

The oath is to support the CONSTITUTION. The US is, as far as I know, the only nation in the world to make this differentiation.

As for the "flag-draped coffins" coming out of Iraq -- while there have been around 300 deaths, that's not nearly as many as the bodybags and coffins that came out of 'Nam. There's no story in one (except to those directly involved), newswise, but there is in hundreds. In short, the networks want to see lots of coffins, not just one or two. I leave the morality of this to you; I have my own opinion. From the point of view of the leader who has to write the letters home, even one death is too many -- I *KNOW*. (And while a combat death might well make the local news, it's not likely that local stations will have a nation-wide coverage pool.)

Bobert, I hate to disagree with you, but "Joe Six-pack" is getting and has gotten the message. Many of the troops in Iraq are reservists. Their employers are starting to miss them, as are their fellow workers. Their families are starting to miss the larger paychecks. And Those In Charge (TIC) have extended their tours overseas. None of this makes for great joy in Mudville -- and these guys and the families and employers and friends, they, well, they vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Oct 03 - 08:37 AM

give him a free ride in LEAVENWORTH for desertion...

Right after they lock Baby Bush up for desertion- cept he didn't need a reason to desert other than a rich daddy..

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: Janie
Date: 31 Oct 03 - 08:39 AM

Chip--No one can possibly know how they will react once they are actually in a traumatic situation--much less what their psyches might do after the fact. Training and preparation may help mitigate, but do not guarantee one will not develop post-traumatic stress disorder. When you have either experienced the symptems yourself or have spent years, as have I, working with people wwith PTSD, you may be allowed to rant and point fingers, though I doubt you would want to if you really knew what you were talking about. You clearly are totally and completely ignorant of the anguish and disruption in functioning that PTSD causes.

How appalling.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Oct 03 - 09:20 AM

Rapaire:

It's good to hear that Joe Sixpack is figurin' it out... Not 'round these parts yet but, hey, maybe it's right around the corner...

And good point. The oath a souldier takes is to defend the Constitution. I think if the Founding Fathers were around watching what has gone down in creating a PR sideshow for Bush and Co. they would be in agreement that the invasion of Iraq was unConstitutional. The story for doing it has been exposed as just that: a story!

Whether or not this kid has figured it out yet, his actions are those we would expect of a true patriot...

"Just following orders" just don't cut it...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 31 Oct 03 - 11:44 AM

When posters try to address this matter with Chip, they are simply using rational discussion with an irrational person. Give it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: NicoleC
Date: 31 Oct 03 - 12:10 PM

While I don't think this gent should be vilified for being scared and disgusted, nor do I think his actions should be lauded as those of a patriot. Simply because someone's actions coincide with your political stance -- in this case, the idea that being anti-war is patriotic (with which I agree) -- doesn't mean they are acting from your ideals. It's the flip side of the coin from the pro-war group saying anyone who sticks a flag on their car antenna is patriotic, regardless of whether their other actions are positive for the country.

He's not acting because he thinks it's the right action for a particular country, he's acting because he thinks it's the right action for himself. It may be a brave personal act, but it's not an act of patriotism.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: Arnie
Date: 31 Oct 03 - 12:23 PM

Over in the States, do you get to hear about the so-called 'friendly fire' incidents? An 18-yr old British soldier has just been awarded the George Cross for rescuing wounded comrades under fire - the fire was coming from two A-10 tank busters which for some reason attacked a couple of British armoured cars. After the first attack, the Brits let off red flares to signal that they were Allied forces. Made no difference whatsoever and the A-10's had another go at them!! What were the US pilots thinking of? Anyway, the outcome was that one Brit was killed and others injured, including the young soldier who got the GC. I recall a similar incident happening in the first Gulf War. It's a risky business being Allies.......

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Oct 03 - 12:26 PM

Particularly allies of the U.S.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 31 Oct 03 - 12:30 PM

No kidding. We've had more than our share of friendly fire accidents from the US military. I wonder why it seems always to be allies, rather than their own? Or maybe we just don't hear about their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: Chip2447
Date: 31 Oct 03 - 01:54 PM

I'm not codemning him for his feelings toward war, I'm condeming him for the way he handled it. There were and are many different ways he could have dealt with the situation other than deserting. By just walking away he left people who depended on him, he broke his word, and created far more problems than he solved.

Janie and PDC, what is appalling and irrational about this situation is rather than try to discuss it you find it easier to attack me instead of trying to enlighten me.

Chip2447(actually against war)

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 03 - 01:54 PM

In this particular case, when the person involved is both a Canadian, and a Native American, how could it be relevant to use the term "patriotism" in relation to the United States anyway?

No shortage of Americans killed by "friendly fire" - here's a site that gathers details AMERICAN
FRIENDLY-FIRE NOTEBOOK. Nothing on recent wars, but for the last Iraq war here are the figures:

"During the Gulf Campaign (1990-91) approximately 367 Americans lost their lives. Of those deads, approximately 165 American casualties, or 45% (official Dept of Defense estimate), were due to "friendly fire". Of all Allied deaths during the Gulf campaign approximately 51% (UN estimate) were due to friendly fire."

Here's a link to the story Arnie mentioned Trooper who saved friend in face of friendly fire awarded George Cross (It was the George Cross rather than the Victoria Cross because the Victoria Cross is only awarded where it's the enemy who are trying to kill you.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 31 Oct 03 - 02:10 PM

Chip, no offense, but you were just doing a John Wayne thing all over the place, saying what soldiers should and shouldn't do. You are (probably) speaking from theory, rather than experience. Have you ever killed anyone? I doubt it -- there are many, many stories of men coming home from various wars badly damaged by the killing they've done, or the horrors they have seen. The old men who send young men into war don't have to deal with the realities of it.

I would rather know someone like Roper, who is sensitive enough to life to be bothered by taking it, than someone who goes into war and becomes calloused by it.

Macho is such a pathetic pretense, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Oct 03 - 11:18 PM

The original link and recent Google Advanced search.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: LadyJean
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 12:13 AM

Thank you Silly River Sage!
Let us remember that the shrub was AWOL for more than a year, when he "served" in the Texas National Guard. Now, Bush, the chicken hawk, has cut soldiers' pay, and veterans' benefits, while getting us into this colossal mess in Iraq.
I spent much of September 2001 reminding myself that I am a middle aged lady, with full use of only one arm. Because I wanted to go after the monsters behind the terrorist attack. Saddam Hussein wasn't one of them. Bush, apparently, knew it all along. But he still sent troops into Iraq. He's made a colossal mess, and our young men are suffering for it. I don't fully approve of the young man's actions, but I certainly understand them.
Do you think we could get Bush to desert to Canada?

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 02:10 AM

HEY!! We don't want him!! We have certain standards, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: Amergin
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 03:08 AM

no send him back to Oz with the other criminals.... :0

j/k of course..

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 08:24 AM

Just to keep the facts straight, Dubya has cut neither soldier's pay nor veterans' benefits.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 10:41 AM

Just out of curiosity, I put soldiers' paycut + Bush in Google, and it came up with this, apparently reprinted from the San Francisco Chronuicle Troops in Iraq face pay cut

Maybe that's all lies or something. But it reads as if artbrooks' was maybe spinning the facts a bit just now.

For example: "The Defense Department supports the cuts, saying its budget can't sustain the higher payments amid a host of other priorities. But the proposed cuts have stirred anger among military families and veterans' groups and even prompted an editorial attack in the Army Times, a weekly newspaper for military personnel and their families that is seldom so outspoken."

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 03:53 PM

McGrath, that proposal died a well-deserved death about 2 months ago. link

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 04:26 PM

That's what I mean by spin.   "How dare you call me a thief - I was arrested before I managed to take anything."

Technically true. But...

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 05:44 PM

McGrath, I dislike Mr. Bush and all his works. I also dislike false facts, and Bush, the chicken hawk, has cut soldiers' pay, and veterans' benefits is untrue. My intent was to correct this error. I apologize if you got your back up accidently.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 05:49 PM

It doesn't much change the fact that Bush sent soldiers into danger, and then attempted to cut their pay, does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 06:16 PM

You didn't in any way get my back up, art. Only it struck me that the comment you made, while technically correct, was, on it's own, essentially misleading. Rather like "I did not have sexual relations with that woman."

Or the thing politicians always say before elections "We have no plans to do so-and-so" when so-and-so is likely to lose votes - and what they mean is "While we have every intention of doing this, if need be, we have not at this point made any definite plans for doing it".

After all that Al Qaida guy with the would-be exploding boots, who got caught in the act, wasn't allowed to walk away, even though he hadn't actually damaged anything, other than a pair of his own bootlaces. Intent counts for rather a lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Nov 03 - 06:28 PM

Sorry, but you have seriously misunderstood my intentions in saying what I did.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 09:15 AM

What experience did Canada during vietn that would dissuade it from taking american soldiers or deserters in now?

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 10:25 AM

What Bush did do, for the past two years, is cut the puny pay raise that is usual for Federal Civilian employees. My ex works for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, and he and all other feds usually get a 3% increase that helps keep up with inflation. Bush cut it each year to one or two percent, remarking that the funds would go to support the war effort. Remember what he did last year after he lopped the cost of living increase? He gave obscenely large bonuses to his political appointees. Here is a link to that and here is another explaining how federal pay is *supposed* to work (but rarely ever does). Here is a little something about those bonuses.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 03 - 10:16 PM

Amos: yes, IF I believed that... but I don't.

Bobert: Apparently you have not heard. The Bush folks have a "gag order" on showing any coffins.... That's what I was saying, ya Wes Ginny goofball!

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 02:55 AM

When you believe that the fight you are taking part in is a "just " one. You can salve your conscience with the "FACT" at that moment in time you believed you were correct in carrying out the subsequent actions. Anything else will just scramble your brains and ruin your life. On a personal note, there are far too many armchair revolutionaries around these days, A soldier fights, a soldier dies,
you do what you have to do in a split second to ensure your survival instinct maintains your own life. Hindssight is a luxury not known to a soldier. Pax nobiscum

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 01:37 PM

On the other hand, if you aren't at all sure that you believed you were correct - for example, soldiers who have been involved in carrying out atrocities - it must be a lot harder. And the paradox is that it's the ones with consciences who get hit by that, and go to pieces.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: Peace
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 03:32 PM

I think many issues exist here.

1) Military life there is the risk that one might be called to engage in warfare. When one enlists, one accepts that as a condition of employment. I will not comment on the actions of the man involved. War does strange things to good people.

2) The military--Canada, US, Britain, etc.,--has had a terrible record of providing treatment for soldiers who develop psychiatric issues. We can fool with the fancy names (PTSD, shell shock, etc.,) but inside the name a human is suffering unimaginable agonies. The military has no right to abrogate its responsibility in this regard. However, it does.

Some people do not make 'good' soldiers. They then shouldn't be front-line troops. I've read that it takes about eight troops engaged in other activities to keep on troop in the field. I know there are ex-military people who visit this site, and if that number is incorrect then please adjust my figure (with thanks). The kid shouldn't have been doing that job. Period. We know the screening processes for special warfare troops--it's stringent and selective. Why not so for common infantry? And last, I will recall the words of Lt. Col. Sumner. On his return from Vietnam, he was accosted by a civilian who asked him, "What were you doing over there?" Sumner replied, "I thought you knew, you sent me!"

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 03:37 PM

But then, would you want a war where the people in the front line were people who'd been selected on the basis that they were happy to kill other human beings, didn't cause them any worries at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: Peace
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 03:47 PM

Dear McG o H,

To be clear, I wouldn't want a war at all! Also, I don't think that happy is the word I'd use. Maybe more unaffected by events? I think very few soldiers are 'happy' to kill other soldiers. Even guys in select units occasionally crack: SAS, Delta, Seals, JTF2. I'm was not suggesting we put only psychos on the line; they tend not to make good soldiers, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 07:34 PM

I'm with you there, brucie. I'm sure happy isn't the word you'd use, or a feeling most people who become soldiers would associate with killing other people. And I think psychos should be the very last people who should be allowed in any army.

The trouble is that in the circumstances of war people who aren't like that at all sometimes seem to get into a way of thinking which means they do the most awful things. All part of cracking up maybe, but it can happen to whole units. TV interviews with soldiers who took part in My Lai for instance, show them as perfectly ordfinary people. I suspect that the same would apply to the killers of Srebrenica. Or the (then) young Israelis who were involved in one horrific incident that has now come to light after being covered up for many years..

And my impression from what I've heard about army training methods is that some of them could be designed to dehumanise soldiers, which is another way of saying, turn them at least temporarily, into psychos.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: Peace
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 08:04 PM

McG, you are too right. The problem is war. The kids involved in My Lai should have been at home hoping to get lucky on Friday night. However, army training methods achieve what they are supposed to: the production of soldiers who will obey and do. But we know that the purpose of hot-war units is to bring damage and devastation to the 'enemy', whoever that might be. So, in a strange way, we agree.

It is the difference that screwed peace-keeping troops in Bosnia and so many other places. If you want your people to behave like police, train the guys/gals to be police. Cops and soldiers ain't the same thing. What the f does arrest mean to a soldier? (As a soldier, I would interpret that to mean 'stop the cardiac muscle'!) As a cop, I might want to employ the cuffs. Define the objective and then do what ya gotta do. However, peace is always my first choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 03 - 08:29 PM

Whether you're a cop or a soldier though, the bottom line is that if someone is willing to surrender, they become prisoners, and you have a duty to treat prisoners decently.

And whether a cop or a soldier, there is a legal as well as a moral obligation to refuse to obey an order to do something illegal.

In practice those might be difficult at time. That's the kind of thing that military training has to take seriously.

Increasingly it seems likely that the job of soldiers has to involve the kind of skills that policing involves, because that's what they are going to be be doing most of the time they are in actve service.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 10:10 AM

ALL troops returning from Iraq are entitled to two years of care at any VA hospital. Most are being cared for in a transition phase from their military to civilian roles.

Nothing that I am aware of is being cut - but the benefits are certainly not being increased.

And killing a socially defined enemy is not illegal. So to refuse is not an acceptable course of action. To kill noncombatants is and should be refused.

Sounds like the same old stuff to me.

Canada, during our FREE Trade Agreement, also agreed to not accept draft evaders, military members attempting to escape prosecution, or others of that nature. Nope - I don't have a link. But if he is there and should be elsewhere - he'll be arrested and returned. He's not a "Brave" anything - he's a troop with problems and needs some assistance.

Also sounds like a single case scenario that the media is blowing up to shed light on the minority of the problems. Iraq is by and large much better off now than under Saddam's rule.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 10:22 AM

If he's Canadian he's surely got a right to stay in Canada unless he can be proved to have committed some extraditable offence. And walking away from the army isn't such an offence that I've ever heard about.

Killing an enemy is indeed legal in certain circumstances, but not in all circumstances. An order to kill prisoners, for example, would not be a legal order. Nor would an order to collude in a cover-up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 10:40 AM

Well Mac - not trying to stir shit here - but I don't think most of us would argue about killing prisoners being a bad thing.

When he joined the US military he gave up his rights to country of origin. Canada may not extradite him but he'll simply be a fugitive for the rest of his days. With no care for the problems he has. And that I think is sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 05 Nov 03 - 11:31 PM

Hey, the guy has gone back to the army in the US, and will take whatever punishment is coming to him. I've seen him interviewed a couple of times: he's a good man who had more stress and grief over killing than he could handle.
He certainly isn't a coward - not only did he kill when required to, but has now gone back to take his punishment. That makes him a courageous man in my books.

But I'm just waiting for the US military to throw the book at him, which would be cruel and rotten.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 07:33 AM

I'm still puzzled about the implications of a citizen of one country being in the army of another country. What would happen if the USA decided to invade Canada? Does the USA take recruits from all countries? At least the French keep their foreign recruits in a separate unit, the Foreign Legion.

The IRA at one point, prior to the Troubles blowing up, used to rely largely on people who had done their training in the British Army. I wonder how many Al Qaida trainees there are in the US military?

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 02:32 PM

Glad he went back - I doubt they will throw the book at him - there was a Marine from Vietnam that went to Australia and they just let him go when he turned himself in 15-20 years later.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 05:30 PM

Guest, I enjoyed the story about how the Marines treated the Vietnam soldier who turned himself in later -- but remember, that was under a previous administration, not the administration the US now has, run by maniacs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 03 - 06:53 PM

Led by a man who apparently believed that the war in Vietnam was a just war, but was too cowardly to risk his own neck.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: Peace
Date: 07 Nov 03 - 06:35 PM

If our friggin' leaders had to go, there wouldn't be that many wars.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: Amos
Date: 07 Nov 03 - 06:42 PM

Predictably, about ten papers carried the tale of his flight and only one carried the story of his return to face the music:

TORONTO, Oct. 31 (UPI) --    A Canadian who fought in Iraq for the U.S. Army and went AWOL during psychiatric treatment in Kentucky will return to face charges, a report said Friday.

   Pfc. Tyrone Roper, who was in the midst of some of the heaviest fighting for nearly three weeks in Iraq, is now on anti-depressants, diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder.

   As part of the 101st Airborne division, Roper had three confirmed kills and was praised by his fellow soldiers. But he became depressed, detached and irritable.

   He was pulled out of Iraq and sent for treatment at an army base in Kentucky. But just a few days before he was to be released, he walked away, the Canadian Broadcasting Corp. said.

   "I never thought I'd do this. I wasn't thinking clearly when I left," he said.

   He says he is haunted by images of those he killed and that's what prompted him to run away and hide in an undisclosed part of Western Canada.

   But, he said he will soon go back to "take what punishment is coming," and will then leave the military.

---

A

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 03 - 06:43 PM

You can't expect a "leader" to actually lead the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 03 - 09:21 PM

"Oh What a Lovely War!"

Here's another story about what happened to a young soldier - Soldier charged over panic attack caused by seeing Iraqi body

"A military interrogator who suffered a panic attack after seeing the mangled body of an Iraqi man has been sent back to the US to face charges of dereliction of duty in a case which has raised questions about how the American military is dealing with flagging morale. Staff Sergeant Georg-Andreas Pogany was initially charged with cowardice, a rare military crime punishable by death.

Army lawyers reduced the charge on Thursday to dereliction of duty, a catch-all offence which carries a maximum six-month sentence.

It sounds as if the kind of peole who had "cowards" shpt in the Great War, to encourage the others, are back at work in the military today.

Subject: RE: BS: Brave US soldier in Canada
From: NH Dave
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 08:16 PM

I believe currently that the US Military will accept any person meeting minimum mental and physical standards who elects to join the service involved, regardless of his citizenry. Back when the US was drafting individuals, all young men over the age of 18 years residing in the US were required to register for the draft and were eligible to be drafted. As a result, I had a Uruaguayan young man of German descent, the son of the Uruguayan ambasador in Washington, as a member of my basic training platoon as well as several Hungarians, all of whom had enlisted in the Army. At that time, under the Lodge Act, foreign nationals who enlisted in the US Forces for a period of 3-4 years were eligible for US citizenship following their enlistment, rather than having to wait the usual seven years. From a recent article in Time, I suspect a similar program is still in effect today. Many of these Lodge Act foreign nationals later became members of special operations forces, aided in no small part by their ability to speak another language fluently, and a deeply felt desire to overcome Communism.

A similar program was in effect for the French Foreign Legion, which took foreign nationals from many countries including former Nazi Germans after WWII. These folks, like anyone in the Foreign Legion, were never stationed inside France, but in French possessions and fought in conflicts in foreign locales like Algeria and Viet Nam. With the loss of Algeria, and other economic reversals France's standing armies shrank greatly and the French Foreign Legion was finally brought back to mainland France.

In many other times US servicement and women had to suck it in to accomplish Washington's economic desires. For many years, in order to curtail the flow of US money into Europe, service wives were forbidden travel to where their spouses were stationed, while there were no limitations on US tourists who could travel freely, and one year we in the service were not only denied wage increases voted by Congress, but were told that due to a failure of the US Budget being passed by Congress, we might not even be paid the wages we had earned for the month for which there was no budget.

Dave