BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square

Subject: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 11:05 AM

When Mayor Livingstone tried to speak from the England Rugby team's Victory bus during the London celebration, he was booed by a substantial portion of the three-quarter of a million crowd. I wonder why they did this? Is it because Livingstone in prepaired to celebrate every ethnic group in London - apart from the English, whose capital, after all, this is? Perhaps the crowd remembered too well Mayor Livingstone's enthusiasim for St Patrick's Day and his churlish dismissal of St George's Day? Maybe I have got it totally wrong? It could be they just hated his whinney nasely tone or his holier-than-thou sanctimonious comments?

Does anyone have any view on this?

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: GUEST,Taxpayer
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 11:16 AM

A good point indeed EP. We English are not very good at being English anymore are we? It's almost as if we are expected to apologise for merely existing. We need a damn good shot of American style patriotism!
   Stand by for a lot of lefty pinky posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:49 PM

I think the two previous posters have got the wrong web site!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: ard mhacha
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 02:23 PM

I cannot understand why all of those Labourites that support the Rugger lads would boo one of their own, and if you believe that you will believe anything,    the English Rugger people are all upper class twits, so they are hardly going to cheer "red" Ken. PINK PETE.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 02:34 PM

ard mhacha: if you are right and there are 750,000 upper class twits in London, we have got problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 02:49 PM

Well done the lads, hope they and everyone who went along enjoyed it - and that is from a Scot.

One good thing about it - with no connection to this thread or Rugby - everybody seems to be in agreement about the numbers - so next time the Peace at anyone else's expense crowd are out, we have something to compare it to when they tell us that 500,000 people were on the march.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 02:55 PM

In Germany, any politician of any political leaning would be booed if speaking at a sports celebration. The feeling behind that is 'Can't they just only once shut up when we want to celebrate and not think about politics and tomorrow'.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: Strupag
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 02:55 PM

I'm with Giok on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 03:31 PM

Booing is a good way to show your displeasure, ask Monica Seles.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 04:07 PM

While I'd always expect some boos and raspberries from a sporting crowd for any politician, I'd doubt if too much can be read into this. Here's what a trawl through Google News threw up from a regional paper serving the West Country heartland of Rugby Union (not a traditionally left-wing part of the country).

As for the "English culture is under attack" bit, it's worth remembering that London's native culture has not for a very long time (if ever) had much to do with rural traditions such as Morris dancing and such. Music Hall and Cockney has been much more the thing, and in a real sense this is the tradition within which Ken Livingstone fits in his style. And the street Cockney culture was very much based on immigrants into London, both from the country, but also especially Irish and Jewish and others from further afield.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: GUEST,Ken's ok
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 04:41 PM

But at least, due to his ornithological foresight, he didn't get shat on by pesky pigeons...........

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 06:38 PM

The quote I left out from that piece I linked to in that last post was:

"The only dissenting boos - and even they seemed good-natured - were reserved for the Mayor, Ken Livingstone, as he bestowed the Freedom of the City of London on the England team."

Actually it wasn't "the Freedom of the City of London" - that woudl have needed the Lord Mayor of the City of London, which is a tiny area in the middle of London. Ken was talking about the Freedom of London, which is a very much larger area.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: GUEST,Ken's an arsehole
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 07:03 PM

Ard Mahacha. The crowd that turned up were from across a broad spectrum of English life, and not just drawn from upper class twits. I doubt if there were many upper class people there. McGrath. I fully realise that London culture is made up of disparate people; but what that has to do with anything, Christ alone knows? Try and keep focused. The parade was for England which happened to take place in London, so the emphasis is on England and the English people. Anyway, someone who is Jewish can still be English. A second generation Englishman of Irish descent is still an Englishman.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 03:57 AM

I mostly skip letters and articles signed "Patriot" and "taxpayer". They are often written by the same 'way-out-right" individual in any case. Teribus---while I was on the lookout for the first opportunistic comment about "peace-march" numbers, I hardly expected it coming from the mudcat forum. Maybe , instead of putting any perspective on the relevance of the many thousands who marched against war, it can just as well be said to be indicative of the love of more trivial things being expressed by such large numbers of people?

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 04:15 AM

Personally, although I have a lot of time for Ken (tho' he's not always right!) I object to him, and Tony Blair trying to cash in on sporting success of others to boost their own political popularity.
I see the Queen has to have knee surgery, apparently she damaged it showing Johnny Wilkinson how to kick drop goals....

RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: GUEST,anti royalist
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 08:54 AM

However will she cope with a year long wait to get into a one star rated NHS germ palace........
I heard she hurt it kicking Charles'/Andrew's/Edward's ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: John Routledge
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 10:07 AM

Last night a friend commented that he was delighted that England had won the Rugby World Cup but that he would go to a desert island for a year if England ever won the soccer world cup again as the English would be unbearable. Perhaps this confirms our inability to deal with success :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 03:00 PM

Pretty safe bet. I'll go and live with her for a year if Australia wins it.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 03:13 PM

Taxpayer,it looks like Boab (??)usually ignores us. I dunno about you, but I can live with that. Take heart that at the end of the day, Mayor Livingstone was booed by his own people. That alone has brought a cheer to my heart which nothing can take away. It is just a shame that all the exiled pigeons of London didn't gather together and shat all over his head. Now that would have been something to celebrate.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: Jim McLean
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 06:13 PM

As a Scot I was pleased for the English as winning a world event is quite a superb achievement. I was just a bit surprised that 750,000 English people would flood the streets of London to celebrate a game which demands the kicking, biting and stamping on players heads when only 250,000 turned up to protest about violence in Iraq... and there was no warning from the police to keep away as such a massive turnout could be a danger to security as there was in the anti war protest.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 09:19 PM

The counting of numbers in the streets of London is a pretty arbotrary procedure. Anything to do with royalty or sport and the figures tend to be inflated, anything from the left figures tend to be reduced. "Countryside marches" pro-blood sports events tend to be treated like royalty in the papers that like that sort of thing.

The truth is, London's pretty well a country, and that's where the real patriotism of most Londoners is directed. As is only right and proper.

My feeling is that healthy patriotism is primarily a local thing, and only secondarily directed towards the country within which that locality is situated, and that's where it differs from nationalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 04:59 AM

The counting of numbers in the streets of London is a pretty arbotrary procedure.

Arbitrary? Do you actually know how they do it in Britain so you can say with reason it is arbitrary? Here's how it is done in Germany with big demonstrations:

(1) They take a picture from a helicopter. (2) They blow it up to wall size. (3) They put a regular grid on it. (4) They count the number of people in three small grid squares (5) They average the three counts to get an estimation of people within one square. (6) They multiply by number of squares covering the demonstration (with some error correction for the fringes) to get an estimate of the number of people in the demonstration. (7) They repeat the procedure twice with different grid squares to get an idea how variable their estimate is.

Of course, they still could chose not to publish the best estimation for political reasons. But a likely explanation is also that the bias is in the perception of those having a strong motive for wishing some types of demonstrations smaller and some bigger than they actually are.

As I said I don't know what is true in this special case. I do know, however, that the routine counting procedure in Germany is not arbitrary.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 05:54 AM

When Ken was chairman of the GLC, there were many events organised by County Hall which included all sorts of british folk activities. Thames Day used to be a wonderful event with plenty of morris dancers and some great shanty singing.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: ard mhacha
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 07:14 AM

There would be little effort needed to count the numer of spectators at any English National League game [Union].
My reckoning would be an average of around 5,000 at the matches, if all of those hanger-ons that welcomed the England team home, gave their support to their local team, there would be fewer Clubs struggling to survive. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 09:06 AM

Well said AM, absolutely right.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: ard mhacha
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 03:25 PM

I did a check and I was a little bit out, the correct 9,000 figure is still very small, the record attendance is 20,000 at a game between Bristol and Bath. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: GUEST,Ken's OK
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 04:24 PM

Yes, he did lay on a few good jollies in GLC days. I seem to remember a "winter festival" in Jubilee gardens........Gary Glitter appearing, amongst others that I can not recall,too many gigs under the bridge since then. Also remember him introducing Billy Bragg on a Red Wedge Tour, possibly at The Mean Fiddler? Memory failing now.

Personally I do think he is more in tune with what the majority of Londoners want....he was elected.....whether he can deliver will invariably be what he is judged upon.

As a Londoner I am glad he is our "representative".......he rides the tube, has the familiar face of a well worn cushion, and keeps newts. I think these should be the criteria all World leaders and Heads of state are hitherto obliged to fulfill.

And I totally agree with McGrath of Harlow.......I am proud of being a Londoner wherever I may be in the world........but alas can not say the same about being English, and would rather pay homage to my parents birthplace and be know as London Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: Gareth
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 04:32 PM

ard mhacha and Teribus agreeing !

This is taking the season of goodwill to all men too far !!!!!

Gareth **BG**

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 02:51 AM

Ken's ok: It amazes me how someone like you can be born in London, be proud being a Londoner, and yet consider themselves to be more proud of being Irish than being English. Does anyone in Dublin consider themselves to be more proud of being a Dubliner than being an Irishman? I doubt it. And anyway, what gives Londerners a superiority over the rest of England? What Ken does is to play off all the different racial groups against the English in order to seize and retain power. (A lesson learnt from the British Empire, by the way.) This is why he gets elected. As an Englishman, I shall never stop considering myself as being under enemy occupation why that opportunist is in power. Ken's ok: you may consider yourself better thansomeone from York, Bristol, Manchester, Salisbury, etc, but I doubt it somehow. Admacha: If I was showning the same pride at being Irish, I bet you would have been full of approval. By the way, how is your Engish wife whom you slagged off in Medlark some weeks ago?

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 02:57 AM

The last posting was by me, by the way. I forgot to put my name on it. Incidentally Ken's ok, would you tell us why you are proud of being a London Irish and not being an Englishman? You are born in England afterall. This idea that people feel a stronger loyalty to their city than theier country is not something I have found. All my London friends think of themselves as Englishmen first and Londoners second. I don't suppose anyone here will be joining me in celebrating St George's Day next year, then?

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: GUEST,Taxpayer
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 03:50 AM

I said umpteen posts ago that this thread would get all lefty, and boy was I right. No this is not EP posting again, it is another patriotic englishman who has to keep his head down because the Guardian readers have taken over!

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: Jim McLean
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 04:59 AM

I don't how you can say Guardian readers have taken over. Yesterday's Guardian ran an article concerning the National Anthem. I'm still not clear as to whether they meant the UK or the English one as the reporter begun by asking about the UK NA but evidently meant England's NA. Can some English Patriot out there enlighten me as the Guardian is obviously confused?

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 05:25 AM

Taxpayer, where have you been. Your voice is desperately needed here. As for the English national anthem, it must be, of course, Jerusalem.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 05:58 AM

Unfortunately the thread title is too long for a parody, But a chorus could start:
"Red Ken in Trafalgar Square...."

(originally) "I live in Trafalgar Square,
Four lions to guard me..."

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: ard mhacha
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 12:31 PM

Things are going from bad to worse, English Patriot is now accusing me of bigamy, as a devout lesbian I am only allowed one wife, and as for you being patriotic that is not a problem, have you any idea what it is like to be a minority Celt?, we are being bombarded with Wilko and "Herman Monster" Johnson, not to mention all of those hanger-ons that couldn`t tell a Rugby ball from a Turnip. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: GUEST,Ken's OK
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 04:40 PM

English patriot.......Keep your barnet fair on.
I never said I felt superior to anybody, surely that's your department? I said I was proud of being a Londoner. Two completely different things.

Our friends obviously differ too.......the majority of mine are like myself, first generation here.Whether their parents hail from Italy, Greece,Poland, Carribean etc etc etc. They too feel connected to their parents roots,for the following reasons maybe, we were brought up celebrating St. Patrick's Day, perhaps because our parents were far from home, it was important for them to impart their history to us, which they did, maybe it helped them retain their identity.

I, like many others, sat and cringed at the openly racist jokes,mainly targeting the Irish and Blacks, told with great gusto by "the English"....bigots being intellectually challenged are often unable to differentiate between being white, and being English.......aahhhh bless them, they assume they are in safe company if all the faces are the same colour.Of course they would temper their patter if anyone slightly tanned enetered the room.

I think Ken embraces all cultures, and puts equal importance on them all too.....London is thankfully multi cultural and is blessed by it's rich diversity, however that can often leave the bigot feeling threatened. They fail to see why their englishness does not place them on some red, white and blue pedestal....they hanker after the good old days, when the only takeaway sold fish and chips, and the pubs were still able to put signs in the windows stating, " No Irish or Black". How very welcoming.

Having worked extensively in many European countries, I can also confirm that if there is a drunken twat, either urinating in someones garden or vomiting on the pavement, he invariably has a pair of silky union jack shorts still unpacked in his suitcase. Many English travel companies have a member of staff in each resort, who's sole job is to try and interpret for the inebriated Brit, who has woken up in a foreign cell, unable to remember why they are there? No other Euroopean company had even trained their staff for this eventuality........as it was not a problem amongst their clients.

These are just some of the reasons why I am not proud to be English.
Note..I have not even started on the football fans, how very proud you must be to have them representing your country abroad.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 10:47 PM

The English hooligan is the bane of all Englishmen the world over, including the diaspora living abroad, and it is typical you and your type should label us as holligans; but think about it. This is ENGLAND. The ENGLISH in England are the indiginous people. They are not foreigners who have come here for what ever reason. This is their country, the country of their ancestors, their mother country, the country that they love for no other reason than that it is their country. I am not defending racisim, whether it is the BNP variety or jokes makes against the Irish, which I do not tolerate. But all races are not of a equal footing in England. As the Irish feel that Ireland is of particular importance to the Irish then surely England is of particular importance to the English, whose country, after all, this is. This, I feel, is not asking too much. Livingstone, in my opinion, divides people of ethnic origin against the country that many of them were born in. If you dont owe loyalty to the country you were born in, then you owe it to some where else and Livingstone plays on that to his own electoral benifit. And yes, Ken's ok, in my opinion, you are smug. I'm sorry to say it but by distancing yourself from the rest of England, you are giving yourself a moral superioty over over Englishmen. As an Englishman, I feel embarrassed by the behaviour of some of our louts, but the majority of my fellow coutrymen that I have met feel the same. Are you saying that we are all louts? The satisfaction that you tell everyone that England alone has a problem with drunken hooigans rather suggests that you yourself have a racist attitude to the people in whose coutnry you were born in. This is smugness, pure and simple. You have a sanctimonous attitude that smacks of social superiority. I have met Englishmen and women, good people, who put local differeces aside and stand shoulder to shoulder with their fellow patriots. Maybe, just maybe, this is not the coutnry for you and that you should think of relocating elsewhere. As an Englishman, I feel that I have the right to stand up for MY people. If you have a problem with that, then nothing that I will say will change your mind? That is obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 10:52 PM

ARD MHACHA: In a thread that was about the televised drama about Boudecea ( I may have the spelling wrong) you did slag off your English wife. This I do remember. This, I am sure, you do too.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: GUEST,Ken's OK
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 11:40 PM

English Patriot.....glad to see I struck a nerve.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 04:36 AM

Foreigners who come over to my country and who fail to show respect to my fellow countrymen and women will always, without fail, piss me off. Glad it gives you satisfaction.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: Gareth
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 07:06 AM

Yup, dem foriegners like the Romans, Angles, Saxons.Normans etc.

Garydd

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: ard mhacha
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 07:34 AM

Who is this English Patriot?, he keeps on about my English wife, believe me, residing somewhere in England is the luckiest lady on the Planet, and wherever she is, may she thank her God, that she missed me.
Gareth, Hope you seen the Cardiff v Leinster game at the Arms Park last night, it was a cracker, played in pouring rain, these two sides defied the elements with a superb game. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: Gareth
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 11:44 AM

Ard M - Unfortunately no, I had to collect the aged mother, and No 1 sister from the General Station, just by the Arms Park.

But I can confirm the weather was hissing down. It took me an hour to drive the 17 miles back to Ystrad.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 06:47 PM

Gareth,I fail to see your point. Throughout this thread I have simply been advocating a mild nationalism of a type that is possible in Scotland, Ireland and Wales but is deemed unacceptable here. I call myself a patriot because that is what I am.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: Gareth
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 07:18 PM

Sorry Patriot, Lets put it another way,

Define English !

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 03:48 AM

Gareth, I will define nationalism. Nationalism is a collective memory, culture, language, experiance, identity and geographical location. You can apply it to everyone everywhere.

Ad H. I have got you mixed up with someone else. Please accept my apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: Hrothgar
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 04:17 AM

Thread drift:

From McGrath's link above:

It was one of the most patriotic scenes witnessed in the capital since the victory parades of Admiral Lord Nelson who famously said "England expects" . He stared down impassively from his column in Trafalgar Square yesterday.

Tell me more about Nelson's victory parade??????

He did have a fancy funeral, though.

And, further to comments above: English soccer fans might have a stinking reputation, but the Barmy Army following the cricket are very well regarded in Australia and the legion of fans here for the rugby were remarkable for their good behaviour. I think it might have been the same even if they had lost ...

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: Jim McLean
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 05:05 AM

I have no problems with English nationalism, it's their Imperialism which bothers me, for instance when The Barmy Army or whatever group of English fans wave the Union flag with England emblazoned across it. The use of St George's flag is to be encouraged. They don't seem to realise that England, along with Scotland, lost its independence almost three hundred years ago and is not a nation state. They have no individual parliament nor individual monarchy but behave as if they have. They cannot think in British or UK terms .. ask an Englishman to name a city in the N(n)orth and he'll probably answer Manchester or Newcastle. Ask a Scot to name a city in the S(s)outh and he'll probably say London ... or Manchester! The monarchy has always taken English titles rather than British.
The sooner England learns the difference between Britain and England the better for all concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 11:05 AM

Jim, I wouldn't disagree with your comments. I, too, have a problem with English imperialism. I think the first step to take with English nationalism is to keep it English and not get it confused with Britishness. The second step is to show respect to our neibours: Scotland, Wales and Ireland. However, I do feel that you are being unfair in stating that the English have little knowledge of Scotland. Talk about the NOrth and they will think you are talking about the NOrth of England; but if you talk about Scotland, they will be able to rattle off the cities and towns of Scotland and be able to pinpoint them on a map. And yes, most of us know you invented the 20th Century as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square
From: Jim McLean
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 12:41 PM

You have made my point exactly. You always think we are talking about England. Even the BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) from the North = North of England. When the media talks about 'this country' it can mean Britain or England and is completely confusing for non English listeners. When I see any reference to the north in a 'national' newspaper (and I mean the Gusrdian and the Telegraph) I can safely assume they mean the north of England. When did London become the capital of the UK? And who decided upon this status? I would like to see England with a parliament and possibly a con-federation within the UK rather than the present Anlgo centric setup we have at the moment otherwise Scotland should break with the UK and join Europe as an independent country.
I'm assuming your last sentence was a compliment to our invention achievements but don't forget your which are quite numerous.