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Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?

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PoppaGator 25 Mar 08 - 05:32 PM
Arkie 25 Mar 08 - 08:40 PM
PoppaGator 25 Mar 08 - 09:26 PM
GUEST,RIP Fritz! 25 Mar 08 - 10:19 PM
leftydee 26 Mar 08 - 12:44 PM
GUEST,Winger 26 Mar 08 - 01:04 PM
GutBucketeer 27 Mar 08 - 01:17 AM
GutBucketeer 27 Mar 08 - 01:46 AM
Big Al Whittle 27 Mar 08 - 04:08 AM
GutBucketeer 27 Mar 08 - 11:23 AM
GUEST 04 Jul 08 - 12:44 PM
GUEST 24 Aug 08 - 10:04 PM
SPB-Cooperator 25 Aug 08 - 04:04 AM
Jack Campin 25 Aug 08 - 07:19 AM
The Fooles Troupe 25 Aug 08 - 07:24 AM
GUEST,Nmbigbird 23 Nov 09 - 08:00 PM
Rasener 24 Nov 09 - 02:03 AM
GUEST,CONGAKEV 05 Feb 10 - 01:05 PM
RWilhelm 05 Feb 10 - 02:18 PM
GutBucketeer 05 Feb 10 - 03:16 PM
JohnInKansas 06 Feb 10 - 01:31 PM
GutBucketeer 07 Feb 10 - 05:49 PM
JohnInKansas 07 Feb 10 - 11:16 PM
GUEST 22 Feb 10 - 03:59 AM
JohnInKansas 22 Feb 10 - 05:22 AM
GUEST,Jim V - Flanders NJ 28 Feb 10 - 08:14 PM
GutBucketeer 01 Mar 10 - 12:33 AM
JohnInKansas 01 Mar 10 - 02:23 AM
GutBucketeer 02 Mar 10 - 11:32 PM
JohnInKansas 03 Mar 10 - 02:04 AM
GUEST,Scott Leeper 03 Mar 10 - 03:02 AM
GutBucketeer 06 Mar 10 - 08:33 PM
Allan C. 07 Mar 10 - 06:32 AM
JohnInKansas 07 Mar 10 - 11:06 PM
Geoff the Duck 08 Mar 10 - 08:51 AM
JohnInKansas 08 Mar 10 - 10:21 AM
GUEST,Big Ard 29 Dec 10 - 11:22 PM
GutBucketeer 30 Dec 10 - 09:52 PM
reggie miles 01 Jan 11 - 06:48 AM
GUEST,Nervous Paulvis Eggsley 01 Mar 11 - 07:36 PM
The Fooles Troupe 01 Mar 11 - 10:33 PM
The Fooles Troupe 01 Mar 11 - 10:36 PM
GUEST,Nervous Paulvis Eggsley 01 Mar 11 - 11:20 PM
Roger the Skiffler 02 Mar 11 - 05:57 AM
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The Fooles Troupe 02 Mar 11 - 08:30 PM
reggie miles 03 Mar 11 - 12:55 AM
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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 05:32 PM

There are plenty of old jokes about guitar players maintaining that "I could do that" when hearing/seeing just about any other guitar player's virtuoso performance. I'm not one of those guys ~ I am very aware of my limitations as well as my strengths as a guitar picker.

However, even though it's been a long time since I had a washtub bass of my own, I AM that kind of washtub player. I've never witnessed another player without feeling I could do as well or better myself.

Once, at the Arkansas Folk Festival in the spring of '73, I had the opportunity to sit in on washtub with a six- or seven-piece combo fronted by the great Jimmie Driftwood. His regular player was so mediocre that I was probably a bit too obvious, sitting down front and giving body english, faces, maybe even humming aloud to the bass parts that I was feeling but not hearing. Jimmie called me up to put me on the spot, liked what he heard, let me stay through the entire set, gave me solos on every number, and announced "now, there's a real picker!" i got a standing O ~ one of my greatest moments as an on-again off-again stage jumper.

Now, I know that Jim is a gen-u-wine picker, too, and wouldn't claim to be any better than him ~ but no worse, either. The plain sorry fact is that the vast majority of those who perform on this homespun apparatus really treat is as nothing more than a percussion instrument, thump-thumping along with no sense of melody, or of the bass's role as the rhythmic and harmonic foundation of an ensemble.

About 8-10 years ago, after many years off, I tried to make myself a new gutbucket, but was very disappointed in my sudden inability to play more than a 2-3 half-step range of notes. The problem was the string: in the old days, I got very good results from the kind of white cotton rope then commonly sold as clothesline; decades later, the same stuff was no longer available and the synthetic/plastic line I bought was totally unsuitable. Either too much stretchability, I guess, or maybe not enough. So I certainly understand the subject of this thread ~ the right string can make all the difference.

I'm sure Mr Scott Leeper is a pretty good player, and may well be demonstrably better than anyone he's encountered ~ yet. But none of us should be too quick to proclaim oneself "world's best."

Also, I have my doubts about his endoresement of weedeater line, which seems a bit thin to me. Of course, he has amplification built into his washtub; things might sound different in a purely acoustic setup. Kinda like how those ultra-light guitar strings work so well and stretch so easy on an electric guitar, but are useless on an acoustic wooden box.


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: Arkie
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 08:40 PM

Back in the 1960s there were two guys, navy, I suspect on stage at Ramblin' Conrads. One played guitar and the other a washtub bass. I thought he was an exceptional player and providing real accompaniment for the guitar. I thought he said he used an upright bass string. I have often wondered what the future held for those two young men.

PoppaGator, you were being kind to say that the tub player at the 1973 Arkansas Folk Festival was mediocre. It wasn't me, but was a friend of mine and I think the tub was the only instrument he ever played. He gave up the tub, as a music instrument not all that many years after you saw him. Washtub Jerry has been through town a few times. He has played tub with Johnny Gimble and some other musicians of note.


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 09:26 PM

Hah! It never occurred to me that the washtub "non-player" I witnessed so many years ago, or even anyone who knows him, would read my post. Had I known, I might have held my virtual tongue. Just as well, I suppose; it's a pretty good story.

Well, let's consider another aspect of playing this instrument: do you need gloves? If you don't play regularly enough to build up calluses, probably so.

The tub has never been my first instrument, but back in the old days when I had one of my own and played it on occasion, I didn't bother with gloves. The left hand wasn't a factor, because I adjusted pitch primarily by loosening/tightening the string tension rather than by "fretting" the string against the broomhandle "fingerboard." And the right hand didn't sustain much damage, probably due to the relative softness of that oldfashioned white cotton clothesline. If I were to start up again using a metal cable. I'd sure as shooting wear a pair of gardening gloves, at least for a while. Even through a protective glove, you'd probably start building up a bit of callus and eventually be better able to play barehanded without drawing blood.


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: GUEST,RIP Fritz!
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 10:19 PM

Google "Fritz Richmond" (Jim Kweskin & The Jug Band) for some interesting reads. Quite the guy...

I'm too ill with a cold to be more helpful with links, sorry, but for Jug Band fans, Fritz was the washtub bass - and jug - Man.

He's also mentioned well in Eric Von Schmidts' "Baby Let Me Follow You Down", of which there are some threads around here.


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: leftydee
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 12:44 PM

I use commercial weed-whacker string. It's about 1/4" dia. and very loud and stretchy. I've tried leather, sisal and cord with poorer results. Be sure you buy round w-w string, some is square and grooved and will destroy gloves not to mention hands. It's good to see Cap't Bob here again! I built a trash can bass from Dennis Havlena plans too and it's incredibly easy to control. Try it, you'll like it! How's it goin' Cap't?


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: GUEST,Winger
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 01:04 PM

I believe the string of choice for some UK skiffle tea-chest players was GPO (General Post Office) telephone wire. A glove, I beieve, was part of the dress code.


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 01:17 AM

Mick. Thank you kindly.

For samples I just uploaded 2 new songs from Wednesday Night. I was helping Steve Capozzola out at a local Songwriters Jam. He is an amazing song writer.

Go Here: www.myspace.com/gutbucketeer

For some recent videos of my playing go here: www.youtube.com/gutbucketeer


I still find weedwacker string to be too stretchy to provide any control, or range. If you want to spend the money on a real bass string get the thomastik-infeld super flexible (woven steel core) g string. Other bass strings break too quickly. If you don't then use a bicycle dérailleur cable (not a brake cable).

I don't play with gloves, and have never had a problem, but I use a cross brace across the bottom. This makes the pole more upright and reduces stress on the fingers.

After all that, I just want to stress, that there is no right or wrong answer here. Experiment with things until you find something that works for you. And, don't listen to anyone that says that the tub is limited to just playing the 1 and the 5, or beating the string like its some sort of percussion instrument.

JAB


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 01:46 AM

The Ben Miller band that Scot Leeper is in is pretty darn good. They certainly play out a lot. It's hard to tell about Scott's bass playing because there is just too much going on in their recordings. He does lay down a good foundation though. And he's much better than the washtub bass in the Juggernaut Jug Band (when its used).

Anywho. Washtub bass players are so few and far between its hard to judge or compare with others, and why should you. It's not a competition. My goal is to play good bass and enjoy doing it.

Another great player is the Billy Milroy the tea chest bass player with Austrailia's Old Spice boys. He's awesome Check out a youtube video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKdhECF0-BU

JAB


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 04:08 AM

In England the best player for many years has been Rob in the Please Yerself Skiffle Band. Although they are post ironic in their take on skiffle. The first time I saw them they went straight from Kitty Wells 'I Want to be a Cowboy's Sweetheart' to Tom Robinson's 'Grey Cortina'. Eclectic isn't the word.

Rob, I have noticed, uses washing line; but binds his hand with insulation tape of some kind.


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 11:23 AM

WLD:

Is this who you are talking about?

http://www.myspace.com/pleaseyselfskiffleband

They're fun, and He is Good!

It seems that there are a number of players that are at least at Scot Leeper's level :-)

JAB


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 12:44 PM

Out of all of these strings, which would provide the loudest tones in an acoustic setting? In the venue I may be playing at soon it will be loud and I would like to know how to be able to be heard but have no room for an amp and pickup. Thanks


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 10:04 PM

It doesn't look like anyone's posted here in a couple of years, but just in case someones still interested in what kind of string to use on their Washtub Bass (Gut Bucket) - on mine I use parachute cord, works nicely, gives just enough to sound great. The stick on mine comes from a post hole digger, much better than a broom handle.
JD


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 04:04 AM

Has there ever been any research and/or threads on the use of improvised instruments US, UK and other countries, whether they were played more at home or whether there are documented instances in community music.

I know of the foofoo (or fufu) bands on sailing vessels where the crews would make instruments out of anyuthing playable they could get there hands on.


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 07:19 AM

The best book on improvised instruments anywhere that I've seen is Laurence Picken's "Folk Music Instruments of Turkey". There may be something similar for another culture but if so I haven't seen it.


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 07:24 AM

"the foofoo (or fufu) bands on sailing vessels"

... but have you heard of the Foofoo bird?


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: GUEST,Nmbigbird
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 08:00 PM

I've played the electric washtub bass now for twenty years and the best string is cotton string 5 strands together...I've played every kind of music and been in bands...Never fails...


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 02:03 AM

Here is a local Lincolnshire trio.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.channel&contributorid=3744539


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: GUEST,CONGAKEV
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 01:05 PM

Recently built a washtub bass for our band. We're the house band at a place on the south shore of Lake Erie called the Sand Bar, known as "The Bar Stoolz".

I went to several of the websites about building one, and wanted to keep it as simple as possible. Found a nice Washtub at Tractor Supply Company and a wheel barrow handle, much like a post hole digger handle. Bought some heavy gauge weed whacker string, drilled a diagonal hole at the top of the handle, drilled a 5/16 hole in the center of the bottom of the washtub, used same size eyebolt, nuts and washers on both sides, and added washers of neoprene and home made washers of pot scrubbing pads to nullify any rattle. Tied knots on both ends, and added some pipe insulation pieces on the bottom to keep from scuffing up the floor.

We are experimenting with different kinds of amplification. We haven't played it in public yet, so we will see what happens. Luckily, our guitar player owns the bar, so don't we not have to worry too much about how it sounds, plus whatever beer we do fill it with will most likely be on the house. It's all good! Results of it's maiden outing will be posted on http://www.youtube.com/congakev sometime after 2-13-2010. Stay Tuned and keep on thumpin.


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: RWilhelm
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 02:18 PM

If you've never played a full night with the tub, bring an extra string and prepare for the worst.


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 03:16 PM

I use a woven core G string for a standup bass and get GREAT tone. I also can play for literally hours (I've played 4 hour gigs no problem).

Check out some of the recordings and tone at:

http://www.youtube.com/gutbucketeer

I've also used a bike derailleur cable with great success.

JAB


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 01:31 PM

Someone up above said:

If you've never played a full night with the tub, bring an extra string and prepare for the worst.

When I got the first "starter cord" to build my super-tub I was concerned about wearing out strings, so I bought a 500 foot reel of cord for spares.

Before I used it enough to find out how long it would last, I discovered that the original cord (I think it was 3/8 inch diameter) was too heavy, so I went back and got a 500 foot reel of the lighter weight starter cord (about 5/16 inch diameter).

I put the first string on sometime, as I recall, in 1993. The same string is still on it, and it's been played by "anybody who wants to try it" at least yearly at the Walnut Valley Festival every year since, as well as at several other festivals and jams in Washington, Oregon, and Kansas.

At festivals I don't bother taking it in out of the rain, and it has sat unattended in the back yard through a couple of winters - and a summer or two, although when I could make room for it I've kept it in a leaky storage shed.

That cord is much to "strong" for a tension-modulated gutbucket, but mine is "fingered" and a heavy string helps get both tone and volume.

As mentioned quite a ways up above, I use an electric fence stretcher to tension it to around 60 lb tension, which would be tough to get with a broom handle.

The "clothesline" or window sash cord is approximately the same weight, but strength is lower and samples I've tried for other uses literally "come apart" at very low tension when wet, especially after you've worn off some of the surface "wax."

For a "stretch" gutbucket rather than a fingered one, parachute cord would likely give you the string weight you need for decent loudness/volume, and also has a bit of built-in stretch (to reduce opening shock on the tender parts) that would help get the pitch control. My starter cord intentionally has virtually no stretch.

(Your mileage is supposed to vary, because you're smart enough to make your design match what you use to build it.)

John


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 05:49 PM

John in Kansas has a great idea of pre-stretching the strings. Even for a tub that you pull back on, I've found you don't want a lot of stretch. I can hit a lot of notes by changing tension on a regular bass string or metal bike derailer cable. Both have almost no stretch. On the other hand when i've tried weedwacker line there is too much stretch between the notes, and as a result very little precision.

Bottom line, is just like john says. You have to adjust the design to your playing style in order to get the best results for YOU.

JAB


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 11:16 PM

I haven't put together a good spec for my jug bass, but since I've blathered quite a bit about it perhaps some pictures accidentally posted in our WVA memoirs might be of interested.

First, of course, is Why I Built It.

And some Other Views

A Rather Rare "sort of" Full View

John


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 03:59 AM

Where can I get a #2Wheeling Washtub? I only have a Home Depot and Lowes. All they carry are washtubs made in China. I made a bass out of one and the sound is not all that great. Also is an oblong tub good for this.I am new to this and would appreciate any advise.
Thanks.
Funnybones.


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 05:22 AM

GUEST: Funnybones

Without knowing the details of what you put together and how you tried to play it, the tentative guess would be that the poor sound had more to do with the design, construction, and the player than with the tub you used.

Putting a different name on it doesn't do much to change the musical qualities of a tub.

My super tub (double bass dual tubs - see the first post above yours) is made out of tubs from Lowes, and is the best sounding jug bass ever made. (One or two other people have agreed, and I threatened the rest until they left.)

A first suggestion would be to read all of this thread. If you put "washtub" in the Filter box on the main page here, and 1 or 2 years in the "how far" box and hit refresh, you should get at least a dozen other threads here that you can also read. Next you can Google "washtub bass" and "jug bass" and "tea chest bass" and read all of them. Don't forget to do separate searches for text/articles and for images so you get some good pictures of what others have done.

Be careful though about believing "juggers" when they talk about how marvelous their instrument sounds since they're all liars (except for me).

For anyone here to comment specifically on your tub we would need to know at least which one of the 7,429,344 traditional designs you used when you put yours together.

John


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: GUEST,Jim V - Flanders NJ
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 08:14 PM

I use an old synthetic gut D string from my stand up bass. It is attached to eyebolt connected to an aircraft aluminum resonator bar inside a standard metal tub. The top is connected to another eyebolt connected to a gas pipe neck (T and U joints at top and bottom). It is rigged so I can play the double bass - one hand (and shoulder) for the washtub the other hand to play the jug.


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 12:33 AM

John: That thing is better than a puppy in attracting a crowd. Like Bees to Honey.

Of course, I HAVE THE Best sounding washtub in the world :-)

I'd love to hear your some time though.

JAB


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 02:23 AM

GutBucketeer -

Well I have heard you play on a couple of clips, and I'll give you credit for having a lot better act than I do. I don't have the ear to play mine all that well, but LiK picked out some shots to show ya what I was out to attract. See the "Why I Built It" link about 5 posts up (07 Feb 10 - 11:16 PM).

Another year: 2007 at WVA

I don't go for drawing a big crowd.

John


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 11:32 PM

But you draw a QUALITY Crowd :-)
I love your design, but I do have a question though. Why do you have the neck set so it leans so far back?

JAB


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 02:04 AM

The neck was made from a 2x4 cut at a slant to approximate the width, thickness, and taper of the standup 3/4 bass in the living room. It was also rolled around on a belt sander to "crown" the finger surface, although the ~15 years of playing has made a pretty good groove that doesn't seem to affect playability much. Fingerboard dimensions were modified a bit - taking the rough 1 1/2 inch thickness of the 2 x 4 "as is" as sufficient for the single string.

The angle approximates the position observed when a standard bass (our no-name or a friend's Kay) was being played by real bass players. The rather heavy base, with wheels for getting it around the campgrounds, made it a bit awkward to "tilt for comfort" so I made a rough try at making it sit in a "playable" position. A few experienced standup players did actualy tilt it back a little further, but they were husky young fellers who liked to dance around a bit with their playing.

Analysis, to the extent you can call it that, indicated best sound would be with the string anchored to the center of the tub bottom, unless some sort of bridge system was used; and I was a little too lazy to fuss with that.

With the string at the middle of the tub, getting acceptable string height off the fingerboard dictated where the bottom of the neck needed to be, and much lesser tilt would have made the player lean to reach over the tub - okay for the high notes down close to the tub but not very comfortable at the top of the neck. A more straight-up neck might have been okay with a foot up on the base or on top of the tub, but with two tubs stacked up the top of the tubs was a bit of a stretch, and I went with "casual comfort" for the position.

The open string length, incidentally, is very close to the nut to bridge length on a standard 3/4 standup bass of the kind seen most often in bluegrass/country etc. bands; but I usually find the "tuning nut" moved down about 3 or 4 inches to get a pitch that matches the 2d lowest string on a regular bass. Trying to get the pitch with the full length string with just tension on the cord I used will pull the bottom out of the tub. Tension can be varied to swap between low and second string for tonic pitch, but it runs pretty close to being as much as the tub can take when the players start "trimming the tuning."

The whole purpose of the experiment was to see if I could make something that sounded as much as possible like a "real bass" - both in tone and range, rather than to achieve a distinctive "tub sound." That's probably not quite what you want to do for a gutbucket performance instrument, since the characteristic "buckety" sound (whichever of the several you choose) is part of the performance art.

John


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: GUEST,Scott Leeper
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 03:02 AM

Hello friends, it's been 2 years since my last entry : I still stand by weed eater string for electric or acoustic. As for my comment about being the world's best - well that was a bit of tounge in cheek that I should not have typed {and was way off the subject}. Anyway it did get some diologue going about who might be good players - maybe I should have just asked who are some good players. I don't get to see other players much as I play so many gigs and yes it is NOT a contest. I firmly believe that nothing in life other than sports is a competition - we all have unique gifts


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 08:33 PM

Scott: You are good and I love your band!!! The folks that actually "get" how to play the tub and can make sweet music with it are few and far between. It's great that you are in the circle:-)

JAB


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: Allan C.
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 06:32 AM

It seems to me that one of the most easily missed details of putting together a washtub bass is that of creating some means for the sound to get out. I saw one bass in which a gaping hole had been roughly cut in the side. Another was simply propped up with one of those bricks that had a crocheted covering - it probably was a doorstop in its previous incarnation. Whatever means is used, a bass just won't ever live up to its potential unless that mass of air inside it, which is set in motion by the transference of vibration from the string, is allowed to move out to where it can be picked up by ears.


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 11:06 PM

Allan C

The design used makes some difference with respect to whether "the sound needs to get out."

If you want a "resonance" from the tub, the volume of the tub divided by the total cross section "area of holes" in the shell around the volume determines the pitch at which the air resonates.

If you open up the entire bottom, you don't have a significant air resonance so all you get is the pitch at which the top surface "clangs." IF the flat disk of the tub was stiff enough, the disk itself might resonate, which would be nice; but the circular "ribs" usually pressed into the washtub bottom make it too flexible to "ring," so it's best to use it as a diaphragm - like the cone in a speaker - to drive the air outside.

If the entire tub is closed, and if the air resonance is at a pleasant pitch, the vibration of the air inside makes the "skin" of the entire tub push the air on the outside. It's the vibration of the shell of the tub that pushes (acoustic) vibrations into the air so your audience can hear them.

If you look at the air volume in a standard (stand-up) bass and the total area of the holes (usually F-holes) you'll see that it isn't airborne sound coming out of the inside, but the "push" by the skin (mostly the top plate) on the air already on the outside that makes the bull fiddle "boom."

Flowing air, as you would get by relying on air coming in and out of the tub, dissipates it's energy very rapidly; and it's much more "efficient" to have a large metal or wood surface vibrating to push acoustic energy across a broad surface into the air.

For some extremely simple-minded constructions, you might get a little more noise with a wide-open side on the drum, but for a tub design capable of "musical notes" the holes can't be all that large without spoiling the tone.

John


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 08:51 AM

Check out this bass washtub :-

Lost T-shirts of Atlantis

Quack!
GtD.


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 10:21 AM

GtD -

Looks a little like a guy at WVA last year

Another couple of views:

Second pic

Fuzzy pic

Without implying disrespect, some "real juggers" might consider using "real strings" with tuners (about $200? worth of parts) on a jug bass sort of "cheating" on the whole concept. Might as well make the whole thing out of wood (which, of course, has been done in a variety of ways).

The first principle is that it must be fun to make.

The only other principle is that you must hope that it will make a pleasant sound.

If you come up a bit short on #2, it's still ok to play it; but you have to be a little more careful about not excessively offending other players.

John


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: GUEST,Big Ard
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 11:22 PM

I have tried gut D strings and G strings from a string bass. The D is a bit mellower. I prefer the G for the wider pitch range as it stretches more. Both are easy on the fingers.

I use the traditional construction of the washtub bass and find it quite acceptable for a simple and fun folk instrument. I formerly played symphony bass.

When you buy a tub, try out several by banging on the bottom with the butt of your hand. You will find that some have a better sound than others.

Most important: have fun!


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 09:52 PM

Wow - I've never tried real gut strings. Do they have the same mass and volume of steel strings? You can hear how a woven core G string sounes in some of my Youtube videos. Here are some from the recent Christmas Show:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Gutbucketeer?feature=mhum#g/c/8C6426685A254A8E


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: reggie miles
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 06:48 AM

There are few players that can truly do justice to washtub bass playing. It's a tough instrument to manage and even tougher to master. It's physically very demanding and the tub itself makes the task challenging.

I've always liked my friend Jim Sherpa's design concept. It takes the work out of playing a tub bass and improved both the volume and tonal capabilities far beyond anything that any metal washtub player or even any upright bassist has been able to produce. Jim simply replaced the tub with a small diameter bass drum.

It was far easier to carry because it didn't weigh as much as a steel tub and was also smaller in size than what most tub players usually use. Jim's design still included a stick that rested on the edge of the drum body, as in most washtub bass designs. Jim also passed a string through the center of the plastic drum head, in the same way as most steel tubs used by players. When he played, he also put a wedge under one edge of the drum, to more easily allow sound created within the body to escape and he rested his foot on top, just like most tub players do, to counter the pulling he did on the stick to change the tension on the string.

The huge difference was in tonal capability and volume that the drum's head could produce. A steel tub is unable to do the same work, as the very resonant drum head. Nor could a steel tub offer the same results. The drum head is extremely responsive by comparison and that made the physical chore of playing almost nonexistent.

So, while Jim played in a similar fashion to most tub players, using a stick, a string and the standard washtub technique of stretching the string by applying outward pulling or tugging pressure to the stick to change notes, as well as fretting the stick, his break from the traditional steel tub made all the difference in the quality of sound his design was able to produce. While I'm certain there's validity in using traditional methods to building and to playing washtub bass, I believe that the root of this non-conventional music making is in it's innovative approach and techniques. In that aspect, Jim's unique original approach to the design of his drum bass was in keeping with those who pioneered this music.

If the good Dr. wasn't an entire continent away, in the upper right corner, I'd be begging him to play with me. The guy is a musical genius.


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: GUEST,Nervous Paulvis Eggsley
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 07:36 PM

http://www.youtube.com/nervouspaulvis
The Best Tea-Chest / Wash-Tub Bass in the World - probably
Bass Ek Instinct1 - How To Make a Tea Chest Bass - Wash Tub Bass sound really good
and more…
If this works


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 10:33 PM

JiK's comments "If you look at the air volume in a standard (stand-up) bass and the total area of the holes (usually F-holes) you'll see that it isn't airborne sound coming out of the inside, but the "push" by the skin (mostly the top plate) on the air already on the outside that makes the bull fiddle "boom.""

The reason for the 'f holes' is not to 'let the sound out', but to make the area around the bridge more 'flexible' without breaking the top plate. This is to incite the vibrations in the top plate and match the impedances in the various areas of the instrument, to allow maximum transfer of energy to the internal air volume. The flexibility of the top plate - and if you study the internal construction differences between 'guitars/banjo/mandolin family' and 'viol/violin family' instruments and sometimes the back plate (some instrument have a 'coupling rod' to introduce energy to the back plate) then resonate and drive the external air like a loudspeaker cone. The two families of instruments are different, one mainly intended for plucking and the other for bowing. Actually it's a little more complicated than that for the 'double bass' (can be bowed OR plucked easily), but more on that for another time.


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 10:36 PM

Actually there's also Helmholtz calculations to be taken into account too with the internal space inside such instruments, that also relate to why the 'f holes' must not present too low an impedance (be too big in area) to the air flow too - but I'll stop now before people accuse me of ranting on about things they don't believe in or understand ... :-P

:-)


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: GUEST,Nervous Paulvis Eggsley
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 11:20 PM

And, it does work, Hot Dang!!

Well Hi Y'all,

I've just spent an enjoyable hour reading through this thread and hoping to find at least one person still connected in 2011, so, Hi ya Reggie and here be my two-penneth worth.

And yes, you're right Reggie, using a small drum for the box and the drum skin for the resonator is much more responsive and sounds much better than a tin tub or wooden box lid, but well, it's not really a tea/tub bass, as the point about making something from scratch is lost by the use of a professionally made instrument in the first place, ie: the drum, even an old broken down drum was still professionally made in a musical instrument factory.

For that matter, any instrument that has more than one string is obviously not a real tea/tub bass, and even a tub/chest box affair that can ONLY be fretted instead of pulling on the stick to change notes is not in, my opinion, the real thing either, tho close this kind of contraption would be more correctly referred to a bass diddly bow.

I've been making Tea-Chest/Wash-Tub/ or Bush (as they're known in Oz) Basses (or Inbindi's as they're called in parts of Africa or Ek-Tara's in India) for over 30 years and have experimented with all types of tubs, chests, strings, sticks and acoustic and electronic amplification methods, including the aforementioned drum-bass.

And as you'll see by following the links in the above message - www.youtube.com/nervouspaulvis - I have built what (IMNSHO) is probably, the best wash tub / tea chest bass in the world.

It took me six weeks to make in a guitar building workshop in Goa, India - www.jungleguitars.com - under the watchful eye of UK luthier Chris Teacher.

And get this folks: It is a truly bee-ooo-tee-full, fully luthier'd, all teak body, with jack-fruit wood - and faux guitar neck - stick, concert quality, Ek-Tara (One-String) Bass.

The string I use is 8-knots to the inch, 3-ply (8/3) - 1.5mm (0.06") diameter, high-twist nylon, fishing net string, with a breaking strain of around 60Kg (130lb).

In the UK, I use a similar gauge 1.5mm builder's cord (used for plumb-lines and for lining up when brick-laying) which has a nylon core and a cotton/synthetic braiding - like a very thin sash cord.

These thin yet extremely strong strings afford a player a much greater range of notes than the more traditional piece of old rope, sisal or GPO string. - I reckon I can go across 1.5 - 2 octaves - and is much cheaper than using regular bass strings or even old bicycle cables - ouch!! - and far easier on the fingers with a much better finger grip and feel than any kind of shiny plastic lawn strimmer or fishing line.

It still causes blisters though, so until the calluses grow it's a good idea to wrap a couple of fingers with gaffa (duct) tape or even better, just apply some super glue to your fingers - let it dry before closing your own or shaking anyone else's hand though!! - which has amazing protective qualities yet washes off with warm soapy water.

There is enough elasticity in this string to allow it to return to the hand after plucking and enough tension and sustain to allow notes to be actually bent, although this is best heard when amplified.

To this end, I have attached a double-headed stick-on piezo-electric, passive pick-up similar to those sold in most music stores for amping up acoustic guitars or violins etc but these are easy enough to make yourself too.

These can be plugged straight into most guitar/bass amps and even into a mic input if you're careful, to give a pretty good LOUD sound but when I've played pro-gigs a sound man (or girl) usually plugs me into something I think is called a DI box which can produce a fantastic full deep almost double bass sound.

I have also used these pick-ups on the stick too, which produces a totally different much higher tonal quality but is still effective and can even on rare occassions negate the need for the actual box/tub altogether - go see my Tub-Less Tea-Chest at my Bass-Ek Instinct #4 page - http://www.youtube.com/nervouspaulvis#p/u/2/9F6Pd827Fk0 - and accord me the title of genius (-:

And of course there are any number of effects that can be applied to a live sound with a couple of guitar pedals, flange, override, reverb etc and even more that can be digitally added to a recording.

But the secret in getting the acoustic sound out of the box/tub itself is simply to turn the darn thing upside down!!

Or more correctly, the right way up!!

Wha?

Yes really, that great big hole at the top of your box is where most of the sound comes out - dur!! - and it's just plain wrong to muffle it by placing it face-down on the ground.

That's like putting the sound-hole on the back of a guitar!!

And I can already hear you saying but what about the resonator? If the lid/bottom of the box/tub is touching the floor, the sound will be muffled to start with.

Well yes of course, but the answer to that, is that instead of using the lid/bottom of the box/tub, you use the sides as a resonator.

All you need to do, is to simply drill a couple of small holes about an inch apart, about half-way up each side of the box - it's good idea to reinforce these sides by gluing a small piece of wood/metal to each side - inside and out - before drilling the holes - and then looping a series of cross-strings through these holes, using the same 1.5 mm cord, so you are basically tying the opposite sides of the box/tub to each other, with all the strings overlapping each other somewhere near the actual centre of the cube/spheriod.

Tie these loops up as tight as you can - I use a sliding parcel knot and then twist a stick into the outside loops for added tension - preferably until the sides bow inward slightly, but certainly tight enough to create a definite ring when any of these string are plucked on their own.

And then… and then simply tie or loop the bottom end of the stick-string through the middle of all these strings where they overlap each other and voila!!

Instead of just a single flat plate, you now have a 4-sided (in the case of a square tea-chest) or circular (in the case of a wash-tub) resonator!!

Measure the string to the stick and tie it so that under normal tension, the stick has a forced angle of about 45º against the upright, but make sure there's enough "give" in the string to be able to pull the stick upright and back.

I usually screw a guitar strap tab, or small screw-hook, onto the end of the stick and tie a small loop in the end of the string for easy attachment.

The string will stretch a bit but can be easily shortened by cutting it - ha ha - or by simply tying extra knots along it's length. I always like to have one knot about half way up the string which I can grab with my finger tips to give a little extra pull or even let it hit the stick to produce a rockabilly slap effect.

The tub/box is now placed the right way up, with the bottom on the ground and the hole at the top, and you can hear the full unadulterated sound coming right up into your ears - yee-haw!!

If the tub/box is big enough you can stand upright with a foot right inside it to keep it in place (mind the cross-strings when you're getting in and out though) or if it's too small - like my luthier'd beauty - screw, stick or strap it to a standing board, and now you don't have to keep your knee bent for hours at a time.

It's always best to lay a blanket or mat on the ground to place your tub on as it helps to keep it steady and muffles any hard scratching and bumping and I put a small sheepskin mat on the inside too, to again muffle any unwanted sound but also to keep my foot warm and comfy.

If the stick is long enough it can balance on the ground outside the box/tub but you get much better control (and a lower tone) with a short stick balanced in some kind of holder on the corner/edge of the box - I often use the upturned plastic screw-on lid off of a jar of peanut butter or something, screwed into the frame with a lump of blu-tac inside to stop the stick from scraping on the screw.

I don't know about being the best player, I don't really enjoy playing bass rhythms - all that 1-dudda-5, 1-dudda-5 stuff gets pretty boring for me - So I prefer to play strictly on the beat, mostly at double time and my preferred styles are hot rockin' country-blues, wild-ass rockabilly with a psycho twist and what was called at one time, Progressive Skiffle.

Although I was roped into playing with a dub-rhythm reggae-funk band last year and apparently can also put down a solid roots blue-beat bass line on the thing too.

I've played my bass with a number of bands, most notably the sadly now defunct Blo-Weevils and some of our best recordings can be heard at my - www.myspace.com/nervouspaul - page.

I'd love to be playing more gigs though, so if any bands out there need a solid tub-thumper with lead singer aspirations, do give me a call - paulvis@fastmail.fm - and while we're at it, if Scott Leeper would care to give up a few of his gigs in favour of me then he'd surely get a chance to see at least one other fairly good (tho I say so myself) player playing.

But if I can't play with anyone else I also, now dig this if'n you're still listening…

I also, use my Bass as part of my One-Mad-Man-Banned set-up and ceptin' maybe Jessie Fuller, have developed the only known method of playing bass, guitar and drums at the same time.

I hold the neck of my guitar between the string and the stick of my bass and play the bass string against the chorded guitar strings while manoeuvring the bass stick with the guitar neck.

Yeah Man!!

All this whilst playing harmonica/kazoo (I'm looking for the right size jug) and working the pedals of a bass drum and hi-hat, with an egg shaker attached to my plucking wrist, temple bells around one ankle and a tambourine around the other.

There are better examples available tho I'm not sure where, but an early venture into this type of One-Man-Bandmadness can be viewed at my Bass-Ek Instinct #5 page - http://www.youtube.com/nervouspaulvis#p/u/1/NgKb5CdgLdY -

So maybe not the best One-String Bass (to give it it's correct generic term) Player of all time but surely one of the most enlightened, original and creative.

What do you think?


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 05:57 AM

Paulvis: 3 words to describe your performancee:
A-
Maz-
Ing

RtS


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 08:21 PM

NPE "the secret in getting the acoustic sound out of the box/tub itself"

Well actually the two secrets... no, wait...

Among the many secrets .... :-)

But it is still a stroke of Genius to redesign the 'instrument' in that manner.

And it no longer works 'in the original way' as you have cleverly changed the underlying design principles of a 'cheap and nasty folk instrument' ... :-)

By mounting the bottom of the string in such a fashion as you describe, you cause all four orthagonal faces (and it will work the same way if you do the same trick with a circular wash tub, but the physics of a 'throbbing coinoid' are slightly different, but close enough for it work adequately in the same fashion) to pulse in the same outward/inward direction simultaneously. This tends to reinforce the outgoing energy pulse into a single 'circular' outwardly radiating one, thereby reducing the negative effects that happen with 'end around effect' robbing outgoing energy.

Very clever indeed.

Robin


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 08:30 PM

"Yes really, that great big hole at the top of your box is where most of the sound comes out - dur!! - and it's just plain wrong to muffle it by placing it face-down on the ground.

That's like putting the sound-hole on the back of a guitar!!

And I can already hear you saying but what about the resonator? If the lid/bottom of the box/tub is touching the floor, the sound will be muffled to start with."

Actually your acoustic analysis is faulty, but what you have produced works well, but not for the reasons you think it does! :-)

The 4 vertical walls of the box are pushing out the sound, the 'top vent' (open lid) is actually working antiphase with them, thus reducing the effect, but being well over 4 times the surface area (from a 'standard tea-chest, I guess about 5 time the surface area), are giving substantially more acoustic output, the reduction due to the antiphase effect also varies with frequency, thus giving you the 'sound envelope'.... :-)

"Serendipitous Genius" is still genius, because you tried something different and made it work!


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: reggie miles
Date: 03 Mar 11 - 12:55 AM

Wow! Some deep experimentation and some surprising results for sure. It all sounds far more technical than I ever thought it could be. Thanks for sharing all of that with us NPE.

I'm still really impressed by the simplicity of my friend Jim's concept to work with the more resonant drum. The principle is still the same, passing a string through a resonant surface. By using a drum, instead of a tub, he simply used a surface that was far more resonant. The fact that the sound was forced downward to escape through the open opposite downward facing part of the body, as well as emanating from the top of the drum head gave him incredible volume. He had more volume than he ever needed. He could have easily out volumed the entire band if he wished to do so. Having the open back of the drum facing downward probably helped to mute the volume level somewhat but he had no need for greater acoustic volume while playing along with all of the other acoustic instruments in the jug band.

So, via his design, he was able to vastly increase the volume output and create far better tonality. The quality of the tone that he could produce was far superior to anything that I've ever heard coming from any other similar one string bass. And isn't that the idea, to be able to take nonconventional items to create a vastly superior acoustic instrument? He did just that. Yet, because his design functioned in a similar fashion to other tub basses and since he played it in a very similar fashion, it lost none of it's charm in the context of the jug band he played with.

What he did was advance the acoustic concept of a single string bass into the next level, without the need to rely upon electric pickups, sound effects or amplifiers. Yes, he could easily lay a microphone under it to amplify it, if he was on a big stage with other amplified instruments and it still sounded incredible.

In addition, his choice to use a drum made the instrument soooooo much easier to play. It was like night and day. You didn't have to physically beat yourself up to play his drum bass. To make it work only required a fraction of the energy that a tub's steel bottom needed. The sensitivity of the drum head was such that you didn't have to exert the kind of pressure on it that other, less resonant, surfaces demanded.

His concept was such a simple design alteration, yet it produced vastly superior results. It was lightweight and compact. And yet, his idea did hold with tradition in it's design, function and execution of playing approach. In every way, Dr. James was able to create a superior bass.


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Mar 11 - 02:43 AM

"Having the open back of the drum facing downward probably helped to mute the volume level somewhat"

Sorry, but it doesn't quite work like that ...

The most expensive loudspeaker boxes were once designed to be totally air tight (no air leaks) and of massive internal volume to get the resonant frequency as low as possible. So why the 'vents' (openings), you ask? They are called 'tuning ports' for a reason.

If you cannot make the massive internal volume (cause you want smaller boxes!), then you have to make it smaller! This means that the resonant frequency is higher, leading to a fall off in response at the lower bass end of the range. So you measure the path length of the 'tube' that leads to the external hole, so you can add a length to the exiting sound path so that the sound is delayed and then exits in phase at the lower frequencies you wish to reinforce.

You can also 'load' the inside with a material that helps absorb some of the sound, adding some impedance to the exiting air.


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Mar 11 - 02:50 AM

Consider the part of the box that resonates when you pluck the string the 'driver' ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker_enclosure#Closed-box_enclosures
QUOTE
The primary role of the enclosure is to prevent sound waves generated by the rearward-facing surface of the diaphragm of an open driver interacting with sound waves generated at the front of the driver. Because the forward- and rearward-generated sound is out of phase with each other, any interaction between the two in the listening space creates a distortion of the original signal...
UNQUOTE

The tea chest with its lid lifted off the floor is nearer to this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bass_reflex
QUOTE
A Bass reflex system (also known as a ported, vented box or reflex port) is a type of loudspeaker enclosure that uses the sound from the rear side of the diaphragm to increase the efficiency of the system at low frequencies as compared to a typical closed box loudspeaker or an infinite baffle mounting.

A reflex port is the distinctive feature of a very popular enclosure variety. The design approach enhances the reproduction of the lowest frequencies generated by the woofer. The port generally consists of one or more tubes mounted in the front (baffle) or rear face of the enclosure. Depending on the exact relationship between driver parameters, the enclosure volume (and filling if any), and the tube cross-section and length, the low frequency limit or efficiency can be substantially improved over the performance of a similarly sized sealed box enclosure.

Though helpful with extending bass performance, bass reflex cabinets can have poor transient response compared to sealed enclosures at frequencies near the lower limit of performance. Proper adjustment of the cabinet and port size, and matching with driver characteristics can reduce much of this problem.

Achieving a balanced bass reproduction from a sealed box is simpler than properly aligning the components of a bass reflex system, and requires less effort expended in corrections to quality control variations of the components.
UNQUOTE


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Subject: RE: Washtub Bass: What kind of string & why?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Mar 11 - 02:57 AM

Again see previous post for 'driver' meaning in this context ...

Raison d'être for a speaker enclosure

http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/Loudspeaker_construction.html

QUOTE
A primary function of a speaker enclosure is to keep the sound coming from the back of a driver cone from going into the room. The sound from the back of a driver is 180 degrees out of phase with the sound from the front. For bass frequencies the sound from the back would cancel the sound from the front, destroying the low frequency performance. At higher frequencies where the wavelength is smaller than the driver diameter, the situation is more complex. The sound may add, cancel, or something in between. The sound from the back is also delayed in time by a fraction of a millisecond, which can interfere with the stereo imaging (see discussion on source location). Preventing all sound from the backs of all drivers from going into the room is by far the cleanest way to obviate these problems.
UNQUOTE

With an 'instrument' as distinct from a 'sound reproducer (loudspeaker) cabinet', you are actually relying on various aspects of the 'tone and timbre' of the instrument deriving from some of these effects that you normally want to avoid when designing a loudspeaker cabinet. Any good luthier should be able to explain...


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