Music is 'The Word'?

Subject: Music is 'The Word'?
From: *daylia*
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 12:35 PM

I'm home battling the flu today, with lots of time on my hands to ponder two of my very favorite topics: Music and Spirituality. Seems they go hand in hand so well, almost to the point where sometimes I'm convinced that Music IS Spirituality!

These ideas I found on the net yesterday are some of the most beautiful I've ever read on the subject of Music, Spirituality and the "mechanics" of Creation. I'd like to share them with the musicians at Mudcat, not because I'm trying to convince anyone they are "fact" or "science", but because I find them so inspiring.

Ideas like this reinforce, for me, just how very vital and important -- and mystical -- music really is. I feel even more motivated as a teacher of music to "do right" by my students, to present the study of music in a way that inspires not only a great love and respect for the art, but an deep desire to continue learning, growing and evolving as a musician throughout life.

I've read comments (from non-musicians) here on Mudcat that music is nothing but "background noise". That hurts, because I know music is so much more! Music is sacred don'tcha know ... the very highest form of "magic" ...

Anyway, here's what I wanted to share:

"Every unit of consciousness is forging a vehicle of sound in the fires of existence in order to participate in the great symphony in the heavens.

In the book Glamour, a World Problem, we read that every human being is "perfecting an instrument whereby the music of the soul and, later, the musical quality of the Hierarchy (the kingdom of superhuman lives) can be heard....sound permeates all forms; the planet itself has its own note or sound; each minute atom also has its sound; each form can be evoked into music and each human being has his peculiar chord and all chords contribute to the great symphony, which the Hierarchy and Humanity are playing, and playing now. Every spiritual group has its own tune....and the groups which are in process of collaborating with the Hierarchy make music ceaselessly.

This rhythm of sound and this myriad of chords and notes blend with the music of the Hierarchy itself and this is a steadily enriching symphony; as the centuries slip away, all these sounds slowly unite and are resolved into each other until some day the planetary symphony which Sanat Kumara [the Lord of the World] is composing will be completed and our Earth will then make a notable contribution to the great chords of the solar system—and this is a part, intrinsic and real, of the music of the spheres.

Then, as the Bible says, the Sons of God, the planetary Logoi, will sing together. This...will be the result of...the correct relation between all parts..."

Love is the energy that ensures this correct relation. Through the power of its own commanding silence, it orchestrates the spiralling, musical relationship between the poles of spirit and matter, regarding every separated unit of consciousness that lies between them as instrumental to the symphony of the whole. As each of us awakens to the conscience of love, we take our place in this conducting force and the great Law of Love ..."

And here's the rest of the article:   The Conscience of Love: Esoteric Perspectives on a Science of Consciousness

Enjoy, and I look forward to reading any comments,

daylia

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 05:22 PM

Very pretty, Daylia!! Not much science to it, but certainly inspiring pleasantries.

A

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 05:27 PM

Do you think music by "The Fugs" fits this spirituality?

Another "sunshine pumped up your ass" thread?

Get lilly high.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Ed.
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 05:28 PM

Amos was being nice.

What he really meant was:

Seldom have I seen so much unmitigated nonsense!

But he's to polite to say it...

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 05:36 PM

Ed

You should have said too polite.

Anyway, This is truly stuff that originated from the tower of babble.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Ed.
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 05:40 PM

You should have said too polite

Indeed I should have, Martin.

Being poor at computer text entry, means only that, however.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 05:44 PM

Yep, right on, right on.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 05:46 PM

Gentlemen:

Thanks for the kind opinion, but I say what I mean. I think there may be some high metaphysical ground where music and spirituality are one, but I don't see anything scientific in thinking so!

"In the beginning was the Word; and the word was misunderstood...."


A

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 05:48 PM

Actually the "bird is the word"

Everybody's talking about the bird.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 05:56 PM

well, upon reading that, I felt the rhythms of my soul corrusulate with sanguine perspicacity! The heirarchical layers of chordal vicissitudes that normally inundate me with Karmic torpor were blissfully eradicated in a swirl of Logi in all their planetary splendor. In fact, it still permeates my aura as I type this...

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Cluin
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 06:03 PM

Nothin' wrong with feelin' good, folks.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 06:19 PM

Amos - what's science got to do with metaphysics? "Meta" = "beyond"; that is, *daylia*'s message discusses something that is neither proven nor disproven by science.

I'm just putting my little $0.02-worth into this thread to endorse the original post and counter all the negative responses.

And I'd say yes, even the Fugs's music offers a spiritual element. Just because it's irreverent -- disrespectful of some estabished bullshit values -- doesn't make in any less spiritual. Insofar as it tends to reveal some kind of truth, I think that even the most iconoclastic art can be of great spiritual value (even where there's an obvious, er, carnal element).

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Tinker
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 07:39 PM

Daylia, when you find words that resonate for you about what is otherwise as undefinable as the Spirit hang on to them. It seems to be a very tangible time here on Mudcat... oh well...
Music calls all of us here or we wouldn't be posting at Mudcat. Some songs are mired in the mud, others reach for the stars, just keep singing.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Snuffy
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 07:42 PM

Metaphysical bodhrans are the best sort

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 08:34 PM

The spirituality of music is found in between the notes, Fugs, folk, Bach or rock.

Poppa, I made the point because the article Daylia linked to is called  "The Conscience of Love: Esoteric Perspectives on a Science of Consciousness" which I found over-reaching. You don't achieve a "science of consciousness" by spreading grandiose poetic opinions and speculations couched as fact. As my favorite scientist says in such circumstances, "Ba-a-a-a-d scientist....".

A

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Cluin
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 10:11 PM

"You are sad," the Knight said in an anxious tone: "let me sing you a song to comfort you."

"Is it very long?" Alice asked, for she had heard a good deal of poetry that day.

"It's long," said the Knight, "but it's very, very beautiful. Everybody that hears me sing it - either it brings the tears to their eyes, or else -"

"Or else what?" said Alice, for the Knight had made a sudden pause.

"Or else it doesn't, you know. The name of the song is called 'Haddocks' Eyes.' "

"Oh, that's the name of the song, is it?" Alice said, trying to feel interested.

"No, you don't understand," the Knight said, looking a little vexed. "That's what the name is called. The name really is 'The Aged Aged Man.' "

"Then I ought to have said 'That's what the song is called'?" Alice corrected herself.

"No, you oughtn't: that's quite another thing! The song is called 'Ways And Means': but that's only what it's called, you know!"

"Well, what is the song, then?" said Alice, who was by this time completely bewildered.

"I was coming to that," the Knight said. "The song really is 'A-sitting On A Gate': and the tune's my own invention."

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 10:36 PM

In the last couple of generations 'spirituality' has ceased to have any specific meaning, and thus has none at all. No matter, music is superior to whatever passes as spirituality. Except, perhaps, bad music, Or inept.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Cluin
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 10:44 PM

"'spirituality' has ceased to have any specific meaning, and thus has none at all"


Even accepting the first part of that statement, the rest doesn't follow. Spirituality is an individual thing, always was. We are each alone with our respective experiences and thoughts of it. It's a changing thing anyway, or else it dies. And if music is a part of that for any of us, so much the better. For us, For the music. And for our appreciation of it.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 10:45 PM

Mack:

I am inclined to demur -- I think it has very real and bounded meanings. Others, of course, may have their own variations, mixing the subject up with various icons and pictures, but that doesn't mean it has no meaning.

1. The state, quality, manner, or fact of being spiritual.

Spiritual:ADJECTIVE:
1. Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material. See synonyms at immaterial. 2. Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul. 3. Of, from, or relating to God; deific. 4. Of or belonging to a church or religion; sacred. 5. Relating to or having the nature of spirits or a spirit; supernatural.

(American Heritage)

Spirit: 1a. The vital principle or animating force within living beings. b. Incorporeal consciousness. 2. The soul, considered as departing from the body of a person at death. 3. Spirit The Holy Spirit. 4. A supernatural being, as: a. An angel or a demon. b. A being inhabiting or embodying a particular place, object, or natural phenomenon. c. A fairy or sprite. 5a. The part of a human associated with the mind, will, and feelings: Though unable to join us today, they are with us in spirit. b. The essential nature of a person or group. ...

A

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: mg
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 10:49 PM

I liked it.. mg

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 11:07 PM

Eventually, someone probably should point out that "The Word" set to music is called gospel. There is certainly an enormous amount of music that is spiritual that isn't gospel, but when the phrase "The Word" is used the connection to Christ saying "I am the Word," is the first thing that would come to mind for Christians. If you're not talking about the "Word," what do you mean by the word?

The phrase "spirituals" also has a very specific meaning, referring to black songs from the time of slavery that aluded to escaping to freedom.

Words. They'll mess you up, every time.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: GUEST,KB
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 05:53 AM

Daylia - that's an interesting article - flavoursome stuff to muse upon, thanks for posting it. As I read it, it was using music as an analogy to express spiritual ideas - which works because they do seem so very much hand in hand. Like most inspirational writing it sets off all sorts of thoughts & associations, some of which feel like a universal truth and others of which will turn out to be complete red herrings. Its down to the reader to take from it what they will.

Regarding music being "nothing but background noise" - maybe that's not so damning a phrase. It does imply that its always around us. I like the idea of music being constantly available as background (ie part of the fabric of the environment) rather than being reserved for special occasions or being doled out as dollops of corporate pop.

Anyway - must get back to work & stop rambling on - but I'll be happily occupied musing away for hours now....

kris

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: treewind
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 07:05 AM

Amos and others : there's plenty of science in it, or not very far away at all!

This, as it happens, is where my name came from.
It was way back in December 1980, but of course it's timeless, and I think the first post to this thread is somewhere in the same domain.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 08:01 AM

funny, tonight i was a session. theme was drinking songs. one guy was playing something faaantastic on the concertina. it was throbbing, waling and humming, and everyone was right there, nodding, rocking, eyes closed, listening. I found myself listening and thinking - what if someone from Planet X walked in and heard this for the first time ever - listening to how he was organising and controlling sound, creating moods and feelings, and how everyone was getting off on it.

it felt so good.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 09:07 AM

I don't know any physicists who would say the whole universe is electrical energy; nor could it be sound vibrations, which by definition are molecular. That space and particles have a vibratory nature is real enough but the difference between science and mysticism, in part, is the rigor of the definitions.

But, mystics gain quite a lot for not using that rigor -- they traffic in ambiguity intentionally -- something physicists hate to do -- and thus leave logical holes big enough to drive a soul through.


A

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 10:09 AM

I have a bad habit of sometimes being too terse. Perhaps I should have said that spirituality has ceased to have any universally recognized specific meaning. BTW, I've asked a couple of preachers exactly what the word means these days. Neither could answer.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Andrez
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 10:50 AM

I try to explain to my 10 year old daughter when she needs to be reminded that everything has its place in the scheme of things that it takes all colours to make a rainbow. Similarly with music it takes all kinds of vibrations to make one sound let alone a whole song.

So in this sense I dont have a problem with the rational/scientific contributions here or to Daylias original post although some of the sentiments expressed arent quite to my taste either. What I do want to take issue with for what its worth is the idea that "mysticism" and "science" are somehow mutually exclusive or that one or the other is bunk.

If you look at both systems they let us get closer to understanding something about what we are experiencing by being involved with music....... at what ever level or capacity. They way they do that differs as does the knowledge and understanding that we access through one or the other. Both ways of experiencing music are equally valid. I mean you can have a "rational", "logical" experience of music and thats fine but it would soon become boring if music just happened in your head and you never had the experience of getting carried away and just letting your feet and body respond to the music. At that level it really doesnt matter if you are dancing to the Sex Pistols, the Stones, Eminem or Stravinsky.

Daylia, I started this small datribe by just wanting to pass on a book that you might find interesting. Its called the Mysticism of Sound, the Sufi Message of Hazrat Inayat Khan. He talks about music as a metaphor for life and goes on from there. If you can get hold of it take what you want and then move on. Hopefully you will be a little richer for the experience.

By the way just to balance things a little find some books by Fritjof Capra or read about Chaos theory.......... different frames of reference to the one in your post but equally rich in what they can offer re a perspective on music and just maybe life in general.

One final thought though, for the sake of the kids you are teaching keep it simple and keep it fun. Let your students feel the music in their bodies and let them draw their own conclusions about it all from their own experience.

Nuff blah for now Bye.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 10:54 AM

I think the term spirituality means something different to each of us, so it's hard to come up with a one-liner definition. It can be anything from a powerful awareness to a warm fuzzy, "Tomorrow is the first day of the rest of your life" coziness. I would be hard pressed to give a definition that couldn't immediately, and rightfully be challenged. Spirituality to a minister is going to have a very different meaning than it is to an agnostic, although both may have spirituality in their lives.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: treewind
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 10:59 AM

I appreciate that physical and electrical vibration aren't literally the same thing, but as we're all familiar with the concept of music coming down a wire and coming out as music again the other end it's true in some sense that something is interchangeable.

Anyway mysticism reaches the parts science cannot, and vice versa. The wave/particle duality thing is just one of those places where they reach all way round the conceptual universe in opposite directions and bump into each other on the other side.

"this is the extreme west"
"no, it's the extreme east"
etc...

And some very advanced theoretical physicists have admitted that their work is knocking on the door of mysticism. When you go too far beyond Newtonian mechanics and every complicated theory is found to have even more complicated exceptions you must start wondering if you've lost the way...

Similarly, you can get too wrapped up analysing the technicalities of music and foget to just sit back and enjoy the noise it makes and the feelings it creates.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 11:05 AM

MAck:

Preachers who don't know what spirituality is are being disingenuous or unqualified, one or the other. There is a universe of phenomena and concerns about them of which the core attributes are awareness and immateriality;non-locality and non-identification with specific material locations or forms. See defintions above, also; they seem pretty right to me.

A

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 11:16 AM

Talk about over-analyzing!

Is anal the root word of analyzing?

How about, "It's got a good beat and it's easy to dance to."

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 11:21 AM

About what I woulda expected, Martin.

Some people approach the boundary between the material and the spiritual as an adventure; others bounce off it as hard as they can. It keeps them safe in the world of predictable solids.

A

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 11:47 AM

Not all music is meant to be danced to..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 12:29 PM

True

But much of it so analyzed and in the same breath catoragized. The hypocrisy of it all is the ones who do this overt analyzing are the first ones who criticize the popular notion of catagorizing music.

I know much music is not meant to be danced to as my statement, like many I make are so intentionally tongue in cheek.

I prefer to make and appreciate good music. Babble about such things as Chaos theory and wave/particle vibrations are just that, babble. When I hear something that moves me, I get a chill.

Instead of over analyzing why the sky is blue, go find and listen to a song that gives you a chill. Or at least a quiver. You won't need a lot of $.50 words or pseudo-intellectual theories to describe what you feel.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: GUEST,KB
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 12:44 PM

Martin - I imagine that to some people music is just babble, and its chaos theory & wave/particle vibs that give them chills...

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: *daylia*
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 02:27 PM

Wow, people! Even though I haven't been feeling well enough to do much debating or analysing or criticizing -- or even put together at least a semi-coherent response -- please know that I've been checking in and reading the above discussion with great interest .... and MUCH enjoyment!

Daylia, when you find words that resonate for you about what is otherwise as undefinable as the Spirit hang on to them. It seems to be a very tangible time here on Mudcat... oh well...

Music calls all of us here or we wouldn't be posting at Mudcat. Some songs are mired in the mud, others reach for the stars, just keep singing.

Tinker, I really like that. Thank you!

kris, I loved your post! and thank you too.

And Cluin, you're right, there's nothing wrong with feelin good. Even folkies know that! I agree with your insights on music and spirituality, and I liked your story too   :-)

Poppa, thank you very much for your timely endorsement. By the way, isn't Creation itself the very Essence of "carnal"???


well, upon reading that, I felt the rhythms of my soul corrusulate with sanguine perspicacity! The heirarchical layers of chordal vicissitudes that normally inundate me with Karmic torpor were blissfully eradicated in a swirl of Logi in all their planetary splendor. In fact, it still permeates my aura as I type this...

But, mystics gain quite a lot for not using that rigor -- they traffic in ambiguity intentionally -- something physicists hate to do -- and thus leave logical holes big enough to drive a soul through ... Some people approach the boundary between the material and the spiritual as an adventure; others bounce off it as hard as they can. It keeps them safe in the world of predictable solids.

:-) LOL! Whatta wit onya both!

Bill, Amos -- please don't ever change. Let's agree to disagree (in varying degrees)about matters musically metaphysical for at least another million millenium, ok? This is just too much fun ... I know I'd miss it!

Amos, I scratched my head over the title of the article for quite a while too, until I focused on the words "Esoteric Perspectives on a Science of Consciousness". "Esoteric perspectives" on any science would be an "esoteric" interpretation of that science -- (meaning "relating to knowledge that is restricted to a small group", or "designed for or understood by the specially initiated alone", according to Webster's) -- and not the science itself.

I don't know any physicists who would say the whole universe is electrical energy; nor could it be sound vibrations

Well, I keep thinking of the hydrogen atom, the smallest of all atoms, the basic building block of matter. Composed of one proton and one electron -- one positive and one negatively charged subatomic particle -- and the electrical field of attraction between them.   And electricity is movement, or vibration ... and vibration is sound. Hmmmmmmmm

Anahata, thank you very much for all of your insights and for posting your interesting website. "Unstruck sound". I won't forget!

Andrez, I will keep my eye out for the book you mentioned. SOunds intriguing, and this IS one of my favorite areas of study! I do appreciate your suggestions re working with my students, too. Right on!

Martin, I know exactly how you feel about too many words, too much analysing, blah blah blah and the "tower of babble". :-) It depends on one's perspective, one's interest in the subject. As someone pointed out above -- music IS at times, and for certain people, nothing but "background noise".   But that's certainly not all it is! Unless, of course, one chooses to limit their perception, knowledge and appreciation of music this way.

I think the same thing applies to the article I presented here, or any other body of material -- esoteric or otherwise.

Okay, I KNOW I've missed a few of you who really don't deserve to be missed, and I'll be back, but now I do need to go back to bed. Inspired by Anahata's article, I am going to lie there and "re-orchestrate" the sounds and songs of all the molecules of my body back into harmony with one another.    If I can only get 'em playin the same song in the same key, in perfect timing and tuning with one another, I'll be restored to perfect health! ;-)

(Hey, it's worth a try. If it works, you'll be the first to know!!)

daylia

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 05:04 PM

Daylia's gone, one more round.

Daylia's gone.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: *daylia*
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 10:51 AM

Sorry to burst your bubble, Martin, but I'm back! But hey, please don't let that stop any of you from going at "another round!"

And I'm better, too! :-)

   Could be that new musical molecular meditation I created last night (that was fun, and I practiced it for quite a while!) Could be the hours and hours of sleeping, the other energetic healing work I've been doing, the gallons of chicken noodle soup, or it could just be that the flu bug finally ran it's course. Maybe a combination of all those factors.

In any case, what does it matter?   YIPPEEEEE! I'm back to work today!!

And I just wanted to get back to a couple of you I missed yesterday ...

Jerry said "Eventually, someone probably should point out that "The Word" set to music is called gospel. There is certainly an enormous amount of music that is spiritual that isn't gospel, but when the phrase "The Word" is used the connection to Christ saying "I am the Word," is the first thing that would come to mind for Christians. If you're not talking about the "Word," what do you mean by the word?

Jerry, you're right of course. I could have been more clear with the title of this thread. The Prologue to the Gospel of John starts with "In the beginning was the Word; the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God from the beginning. Through him all things came to be". (John 1:1-3) Yes, Christians interpret "The Word" in this context to mean Jesus himself.

I was thinking more of the beginning of Genesis ie And God said "Let there be light", and there was light (Genesis 1:3) So, according to Judeo-Christian tradition, it was in response to "the Word" of God that Creation came to be. ANd according to the esoteric traditions presented in Anahata's website, and the article I linked to, that "Word" was a Musical One.

Also, by "spiritual" I meant the broader definition, as Amos posted above, and not the specific genre of American folk music called "spirituals" that you mentioned.

Freda said "funny, tonight i was a session. theme was drinking songs. one guy was playing something faaantastic on the concertina. it was throbbing, waling and humming, and everyone was right there, nodding, rocking, eyes closed, listening. I found myself listening and thinking - what if someone from Planet X walked in and heard this for the first time ever - listening to how he was organising and controlling sound, creating moods and feelings, and how everyone was getting off on it.

it felt so good."

Freda, that's exactly what I meant by "Music is the very highest form of magic"! Is there another medium that is as subliminally effective as Music for changing people's attitudes and moods -- changing their "state of consciousness"?

Music is so powerful! It can be used to uplift, to console, to torture, to energize, to tranquilize, to teach, to march the soldiers off to war, to inspire the peaceful end of that war, to stir up blood-lust (or any other kind of "lust"), to quiet those very same lusts etc etc etc. It's a neutral power, though, just like electricity. Whether it's effects are positive or negative depends on the intent, on the way it is used.

Now, that's what I call real-life "magic"! And yes, it DOES feel so good! So thanks very much for sharing your story.

daylia

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 07:32 PM

Sorry I was away from this thread for a while.

Amos, your point (from way back when, immediately after my previous post early in this discussion) is well-taken. I agree with you to this extent: that which is meta-scientific (metaphysical) certainly should not claim the mantle of science.

Daylia [OK to capitalize at the beginning of a paragraph?], you're welcome. At the time, I was concerned that the first several responses to your lovely post were so negative, and I just wanted to say *something* to weigh in on the other side of the scale. Since then, of course, many more positive comments have been contributed.

Why would any of us even *be* here if music were not some kind of spiritual nourishment? What possible tangible reason could there possibly be for our common and intense interest in certain combinations of sound waves, existing only in the fleeting moment? It can only be explained by assuming that some non-physical aspect of our selves, built into our shared human nature by our common source (whether called "Creator" or "evolution"), craves and thrives upon such sensations and the sharing thereof.

I don't think any science can explain that.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: michaelr
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 07:52 PM

Everybody knows that music is love... (David Crosby)

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 08:22 PM

And love of our fellow creatures is the most important thing in life.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 05:52 AM

Martin Gibson:

Your post says nothing about Daylia; but speaks volumes about you.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 06:01 AM

> In the last couple of generations 'spirituality' has ceased to
> have any specific meaning, and thus has none at all. No matter,
> music is superior to whatever passes as spirituality. Except,
> perhaps, bad music, Or inept.

What is found in most organized religions is religion instead of spirituality.

Dixon (a friend of mine) once told me "I attended church; but spiritually; I was starving."

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 06:14 AM

> But, mystics gain quite a lot for not using that rigor -- they
> traffic in ambiguity intentionally -- something physicists hate to
> do -- and thus leave logical holes big enough to drive a soul
> through.

I guess you do not know very many mystics.

I am a mystic, and there is darn little ambiguity in what I do. It is a spiritual technology that I have seen work for me, and everyone else that learned and put it to practise in their life.

I gave a workshop in Atlanta last November, and witnessed four miracles happen. I had very little ro do with the miracles. The higher powers, and the person's immune system had more to do with the miracles than I.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 06:25 AM

> Freda, that's exactly what I meant by "Music is the very highest
> form of magic"! Is there another medium that is as subliminally
> effective as Music for changing people's attitudes and moods --
> changing their "state of consciousness"?

Music deffinately has the power to elevate or depress our mood.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 07:49 AM

I don't know about spirituality, per se, but I think music -- and singing in particular -- is a very real need in people's lives.

I was going to start a thread about this right after the Portsmouth Maritime Folk Festival at the end of September. At the Saturday open singaround Curmudgeon and I were leading, I was interviewed by a young reporter from the local rag who was totally blown away by a room full of diverse people, all ages, raising the rafters in songs. Even in songs that they didn't all know. (Sea music choruses being very easy to pick up quickly.) He wanted to know how, he wanted to know why, and he couldn't get over the energy of it all.

My theory is that in our society there are few outlets to sing in public. Church is one of the few acceptable outlets, but, let's face it, not everyone is particularly interested in particular religions or in a religion with a singing tradition. And we as human beings have an innate NEED to sing.

Most music is enjoyed in a performance / audience situation. And not many (except perhaps folk) encourage singing along. If you sing or hum at work, people (or the boss) usually complain. Not a lot of "popular" music these days is, ah, "hummable." And a lot of people have never learned the joys of singing as a part of life or have gotten out of the habit.

I think people need to sing -- especially in a community setting.

Our society as a whole has come a long way from people getting together and entertaining themselves by singing or playing music or from families singing in the car on long drives (both of which I grew up with -- and I'm not THAT old!!!)

Whadya think?

Linn

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 08:46 AM

Two Bear:

I think you mistook my meaning. I was not implying their is anything uncertain about what you do, for example. My statement was pro-mysticism. At the same time, most mystics (and I know a few and have studies many) don't do the kind of work that can be replicated in laboratories or tested according to strict physical-science discipline. Nor should they, given the nature of the work.

A

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 12:17 PM

>Two Bear:

Aloha nui loa Amos; my brother.

> mysticism. At the same time, most mystics (and I know a few and
> have studies many) don't do the kind of work that can be
> replicated in laboratories or tested according to strict physical-> science discipline. Nor should they, given the nature of the work.

If a mystic can not replicate what s/he does; then that person is not much of a mystic.

Now ro replicate healings; you have a point because we "healers" have very little to do with the healing. We channel the energy, but the higher powers, and the person's body awareness Unihipili (in HUNA vernacular) determines if the person is to be healed or not.

But any mystic CAN channel universe lifeforce sometimes called ch'i or qi, Ki, Mana, Prana, etc, and that abundance of lifeforce energy can be photograpged by kirlian photography.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 01:18 PM

Linn (Bat Goddess) -- I couldn't agree more, that people need to sing, preferably publicly and especially in groups, for basic spiritual sustenance. I sure do, anyway.

It is unfortunately true that most of the music I enjoy the most (and can most readily "believe in," of at least "buy into") occurs in a performer/audience setting, but the older I get, the less reluctant I am to just sound off and sing along. By now, I am almost totally immune to embarrassment. I think I do exercise a *bit* of restraint, and keep clammed up in situations where participation would be undeniably inappropriate.

I am blessed to be living in New Orleans, which I recently heard described (by a visiting musician) as "the world capital of audience participation"; it's very rare herabouts to be subjected to criticism/ostracism for the social offense of singing out loud. You're actually more likely to spur further participation by others.

We do *not* to my knowledge have the kind of semi-structured singarounds and sessions, etc., that I read about here at Mudcat -- I get pretty jealous, sometimes, reading abut y'all's clubs, etc. However, our wealth of opportunities for impromptu ad-hoc choral work probably makes up for that lack...

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 02:40 PM

It's a pleasure to hear from you again, Poppa! And no problem, capitalize away!

I agree with you to this extent: that which is meta-scientific (metaphysical) certainly should not claim the mantle of science.

That is a point well-taken, and it's why I puzzled so long over the title "The Conscience of Love: Esoteric Perspectives on a Science of Consciousness".   If I hadn't come up with the explanation I posted above -- that the article is an esoteric interpretation of science, and not the science itself -- I'd have chucked the article and looked elsewhere for my musical-spiritual inspirations. I've always enjoyed science, have all due respect for the rigors of scientific discipline and methods, and I know what's "science" and what isn't! (at least, I sure hope I do by now!)

I was concerned that the first several responses to your lovely post were so negative, and I just wanted to say *something* to weigh in on the other side of the scale.

And thank you very much again for that! I was about ready to check out permanently (from the thread, that is) until I read your post. I thought I was "singing" to the wrong audience indeed -- and I'm so glad that's not the case!

Why would any of us even *be* here if music were not some kind of spiritual nourishment? What possible tangible reason could there possibly be for our common and intense interest in certain combinations of sound waves, existing only in the fleeting moment? It can only be explained by assuming that some non-physical aspect of our selves, built into our shared human nature by our common source (whether called "Creator" or "evolution"), craves and thrives upon such sensations and the sharing thereof.

I don't think any science can explain that.

Not yet, anyway.

Funny, I was just thinking this morning that Music might very well be the vehicle through which human consciousness evolved from that of "animal man" (ie our prehistoric ancestors) to homo sapiens. Once basic physical needs were met, making music together by singing, drumming etc ... (maybe even on the prototype of Snuffy's metaphysical bodhran? ;-) ... was probably the first uniquely human social behavior, the first activity to gel the awareness of individual human beings into a communal, shared consciousness.

Maybe making music together was the first "trigger" for the awakening of a rudimentary spiritual awareness in prehistoric humans, as well. It still plays that spiritual role for people today!

Linn describes a very real "need" to sing above, and I know exactly what she means. When I left my childhood Church to explore other spiritual paths many years ago, that was the one of the few things I missed -- the singing of the beautiful hymns and songs, in community. Even if the concepts or words don't resonate deeply with me any more, I still love to sing them -- just for the joy of singing! I still go to Church sometimes, to do just that. Linn's right -- except for folk circles and churches, where else is it appropriate to sing your heart out en masse?

Music isn't just a luxury or a pleasant pastime, although it's both of those. Music is truly the language of the heart, of the soul (forgive me for waxing poetic here) Music binds people together in community, and yes -- for me anyway, and I think for most of us here, it is very much a NEED.

Michael, akenaton -- I LOVE what you've said about Music and Love. :-)
I'm still drawing a bit of a blank when I think about Music as the "Conscience of Love", as presented in the article, but it does bring to mind something I read many, many years ago. Sorry I don't know who to credit it to, but it went

Music is Love, in Search of a Word

Sheesh, there's that "Word" again!!

Two Bears my friend, thank you for your input here! You know I have the greatest respect (and gratitude!) for the amazing and powerfully effective spiritual teachings/technology I've been learning through you over the last few months. At the same time, big warning bells went off when I read ...and that abundance of lifeforce energy can be photograpged by kirlian photography.

I know what you've said about life-force energy and healing is true, but that's only because I bit the bullet, tried it myself and watched it work many, many times over. I've got the healed slipped disc in my back to prove it! But it certainly would have sounded like just so much airy-fairy hogwash to me a few years ago, and that's most likely how it sounds to the majority of the good people here at Mudcat.

I don't think that methods like Kirlian photography meet the rigorous -- and absolutely necessary -- standards of the scientific community. Yet. If they did, highly intelligent well-versed and good-hearted people like Bill would not be scoffing at the notion of "auras", for example. I just hope I'll still be around if and when the earthly sciences finally come "into harmony" with the mystical, spiritual or "esoteric" wisdom that's been around for thousands and thousands of years ...

daylia