Senator Paul Wellstone's death

Subject: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: kendall
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 07:38 PM

Can someone help me dredge up the article I read somewhere that Wellstone was murdered?

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 07:45 PM

There's lots of 'em HERE. I'm sure the one you're lookin' for is among 'em somewhere.

Bruce

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: Amos
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 07:48 PM

KendaLl:

Here is one story.

Here is another one.

And here is a third one.

Regards,

Amos

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: kendall
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 08:12 PM

good stuff but not what I'm remembering. It was a paper on what "they" planned to do before it happened.

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 09:05 PM

Been listening to the hearings today, Kendall? Did you hear Rumsfeld try to push it (Sept 11, etc.) all over on the Clinton administration?

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: Kaleea
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 02:59 AM

I was very sad when Sen. Wellstone & wife died. I voted for him yrs back when I was up in Minnesota in the election that was one of the strangest in years. He was sometimes referred to in the press as the "Little Professor Who Could." He was a good & honest man, endorsed by educators, "green"folks, AIM (American Indian Movement), big & little folks, & after being in office for a little while, many die-hard republicans. When he first went to D.C., he was threatened by his fellows--even the Dems--that they would get rid of him/he'd never be reelected/etc.--that's when many folks realized that he had to be a really good man for them to be that intimidated.

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 03:01 AM

To be an honest man in today's political system is tantamount to a sentence of death...and it was ever so, as a matter of fact.

- LH

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: kendall
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 07:18 AM

I am not dreaming. I know I saw somewhere a charge that his death was planned, as was Se. Carnahan's so the republicans could take over the Senate.

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: freda underhill
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 07:35 AM

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22senator+paul+wellstone%22+murder&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

this google search brought up a whole lot of articles alleging that he was murdered or assasinated, Kendall.


freda

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 04:14 PM

Here's the link.

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:14 PM

Yet another instance of hypocrisy.

We all know from the Republicans that Clinton offed Vince Foster even if four investigations (some independent and conducted by conservative groups) all ended saying that it was a suicide. It was in the papers for months after it happened with one well known Republican shooting watermellons in his backyard trying to prove it was a murder.

Two years after Sen. Wellstones death and I had to remember who was the topic of this post and how he died. Has the NTSB even posted a final investigation report?

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: DougR
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:22 PM

Kendall: looking for another conspiracy theory? Mebbe you ought to get a paper route or something, Kendall. You got too much time on your hands. I'm sure if you search the Internet, you can find a conspiracy theory to fit any occasion or event.

DougR

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: kendall
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 08:10 PM

Doug, the evidence says murder. It's the law man in me.

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 08:47 PM

I haven't studied it closely but the indicatorsmake accident look improbable -- none of the normal excuses fit the facts. No extremes of weather, flaps under control, two qualified pilots -- I winder what the hell happened?

A

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 10:09 PM

NTSB report said the cause of the crash was pilot error.

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 10:15 PM

Oh yeah--there was freezing rain in the area at the time of the crash also. But NTSB investigators discounted icing as a cause of the crash. Instead, they said pilot Richard Conry, 55, and co-pilot Michael Guess, 30, didn't maintain enough speed on approach to the airport.

Here is a link to an article on the final report:

Minnesota Public Radio article

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 11:20 PM

The description of the board sounds plausible; it is easy to get distracted in a confusion; the beacon was being inconsistent; and they tried to do corrective turns instead of going around again. So they might well not have noticed until too late that they were losing airspeed.

A

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 12:07 AM

In the company, killers who do the wet work have fancy assignments called special ops. Like the Mafia they don't know why someone needs to die along with their family they just have a job to do.

In Pauls case the job (could be) simple. All you need is 30 seconds of access to the plane prior to take off.

Open the access door and wind on the magnesioum strip around the wing control wires/hydraulic line. The magnesium is attached to a detonator no bigger than a match stick and the detonator is attached to a small baromentric trigger which sets off the detonator the second time that 1,200 feet is indicated. Attach a second one to the rudder control line for good measure.

The magnesium separates the control line and vaporizes itself and the tiny barometric device. The plane is now descending without any control of direction up down left or right. All the pilot has left to control is the throttle.

The crash stresses will convincingly seperate the lines.

A more exotic scenario could use a micro wave/infrared cannon in a camper outside the airport that zaps the cockpit area on the way in.


...............
If it seems this easy to imagine, it is probably just as easy to really do these kinds of assasinations.

Ask Ashcroft about the election he lost to an airplane crash victim.
Its a very good story.

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: kendall
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 07:13 AM

The republicans couldn't get control of the whole government any other way, so...

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 08:16 AM

No one loathes the current Republican administration any more than I do, but I don't buy the conspiracy theory about the Wellstone crash.

Now, as to the theory that the Republicans ruthlessly and despicably exploited their deaths in the two weeks before the election to win the Senate seat--I don't even entertain that one as a theory. It is a fact.

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: kendall
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 01:20 PM

The evidence says murder. How many prominent politicians have died in plane crashes? How many were Democrats?

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 02:44 PM

The evidence doesn't say murder, and I think you are paranoid in the extreme, as many Bush hating Democrats seem to be these days.

You know, this kind of whacko conspiracy theory stuff does nothing but make the Democrats look like a bunch of flaming idiots.

Concentrate on the Bush cover-up of 9/11. Concentrate on the Bush cover-up of the energy task force. Concentrate on the Republican AND Democrat conspiracies to enthrone K Street as the de facto rulers of the nation. But this Wellstone murder stuff is looney tunes, and it's proponents look like lunatics.

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 04:10 PM

..."Bush hating Democrats"...

I believe he always has.

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: kendall
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 08:13 PM

It will take more than name calling from some one with no name to convince me.

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 08:40 PM

*BG* prolly whoever offed Vince Foster. A member of the Bilderburgers and the Illuminati. Look for that grassy knoll and I'll bet you'll find Elvis alive and smoking Cubans with martians on leave from Roswell. If the answer is simple it can't be right.

...and if there's no proof, well, that just proves how well they cover their tracks.

I'm pretty sure they're monitoring the mudcat forum for subversive aarp-aged anarchists who're bound to revolt....between afternoon naps and med-imbalance bouts. A whole army marching on Washington and there's no stoppin' 'em 'cause they don't even have to stop for bathroom breaks -- they're armed with Depends.

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 10:06 AM

Anyone watch Nighline last night? There is so much that the Bush and the current republican administration can be censured and/or prosecuted for. In short, the vote on the Medicare bill was supposed to, like all bills, be over in 15 minutes. The bill was going down to defeat. But Hastert kept the vote open three hours longer, the longest a bill has ever gone overtime, Tommy Thompson came onto the House floor to lobby, and the republicans blatantly coerced and bribed lawmakers to change their votes. After the pressure had the desired effect and votes were changed, then they closed the vote.

One fellow said something along the lines of "it's like holding the election polls open an extra 15 hours at the end of the standard day of voting until you get the desired result." If you don't think Bush and Cheney and Rove were part of this plot, you're wearing blinders.

Now that the bill has passed, we've heard the more recent stories of the federal official who was told he'd be immediately fired if he gave the true actuarial figures of the costs of the proposed plan. The White House gave out numbers that were about 2/3 of the actual cost.

I don't think Wellstone's death was contrived by republicans, but I do think that if there's a way to cheat the system, the republicans will have worked out the details.

SRS

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 10:11 AM

Did not Sherlock Holmes say that if you have ruled out the possible then the impossible is must be considered?

I don't really believe that he was murdered per say,
but it is interesting that there was alot of speculation that Clinton offed Foster and that the body of Brown was recovered with a bullet hole in his skull which the right immediately said was Clinton again.

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: kendall
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 01:05 PM

Hale Boggs, Paul Wellstone, Sen. Carnavan, JFK Jr. all killed under mysterious circumstances. Do republicans fly? How come they don't get killed in plane crashes?

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 02:22 PM

If I had wings no one would ask me "Should I fly?". The bird sings, no one asks why.

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 02:42 PM

One can't just say influential Republicans don't die in plane crashes, for example...um ah , I'm still thinking.

Well at least they die and some are shot.

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: MAG
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 09:45 PM

I'm afraid I agree with Kendall that the situation looks funny.

Once is chance, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action.

I'm talking about deaths of charismatic, ethical dems who could have challenged Bush.

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: kendall
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 08:23 AM

Whenever there is a murder, the first thing the cops want to know is, who benefits?

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 10:05 AM

Kendall, there is some interesting stuff here: Click Here. The following are excerpts from it. I found ti when I went looking for how many GOP have died in plane crashes.

At a meeting full of war veterans in Willmar, Minn., days before his death, Wellstone told attendees that Cheney told him, "If you vote against the war in Iraq, the Bush administration will do whatever is necessary to get you. There will be severe ramifications for you and the state of Minnesota."

The list of high-profile Democratic politicians killed in plane crashes goes on - Commerce Secretary Ron Brown in 1996, Rep. Mickey Leland of Texas in 1989, Rep. Jerry Litton of Missouri in 1976 [who was also involved in a hard-fought election at the time], House Majority Leader Hale Boggs of Louisiana and Rep. Nick Begich of Alaska in 1972. High-profile Republicans have died in crashes, including Sen. John Heinz of Pennsylvania and Sen. John Tower of Texas in 1991, but not as many as Democrats.

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: kendall
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 10:45 AM

Republicans can afford better planes with all those tax refunds.

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 11:08 AM

From the above link:

"In fact, of 22 air crashes involving state and federal officials, including one ambassador and one cabinet official, From the Wilderness found that 14 - 64 percent - were Democrats and eight - 36 percent - were Republicans. "

A

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: DougR
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 01:10 PM

MAG: Since Hale Boggs died many years ago, I seriously doubt that he and Bush got into many arguments.

Kendall: I think the problem is, you WANT to believe Wellstone was done in by the Republicans. There is no evidence of that at all. Only conspiracy theories.

DougR

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: kendall
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 02:16 PM

Doug, wjhat I want to believe is irrelevent. The evidence says murder. Hale Boggs didn't have Bush to deal with, no, but he had other enemies.

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 02:31 PM

The evidence says pilot error.

Or are you suggesting that there was tampering with the airplane, but the experts who work for the NTSB wouldn't have been able to figure that out because they're what...dumb asses?

I don't think so. To suggest the Republican right conspiracy extends to and includes the NTSB is getting pretty damn absurd.

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 04:01 PM

The gain from assassinating a political opponent would be too uncertain (how do you know what you'd gain even if successful?) to warrant the risk taken that anyone could find out. JFK is still seen as one of our greatest presidents ever, based almost soley on his martyrdom. Do you really think either side would consider assassination as a viable means of gaining power? The likelyhood of being found out would be too great. And when you are found out, the opposition party would be set for the forseeable future.

What you are suggesting -- a Republican assassination of a Democrat (who was as much trouble to the centrists in his own party) is like an elementary school plot.

A Jr High level plot would at least have Democrats assasinating Wellstone and then pinning it on the Republicans. At least that way they'd gain two ways -- lose their nagging conscience and set their opponent reeling trying to prove their innocence.

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 04:31 PM

What do you gain? Lets not ignore the obvious.

# 1 you gain their death and a general cessation of their activity

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 06:12 PM

Actually, in politics you don't generally gain the "cessation of their activity". You generally increase it in their comrades by creating a martyr. It is highly likely that Wellstone was going to lose his election -- it is easily argued that Mondale came as close as he did on the strength of the sympathy vote. Remember how energized the MN Democratic party was after the death? The huge emotional rally(s)? If it had been provable that Wellstone was offed do you really think Mondale wouldn't now be a Senator? Do you really think that a group as diverse as the Republicans could somehow call a meeting, keep it secret, hire a hit man, all the things that it would require to do what you think was done? Do you really think they wouldn't conclude it not worth the risk and effort? For one senator?

In one of my kookier moments (I can imagine in broad conspiracies too)I actually thought there was a time that the Democratic party might think it in their best interest to assassinate Clinton. Earlier on, if they could have gotten away with it, they could have stopped investigations from going forward -- not have to face Sunday talk show week after week defending silly shit like BJs in the oval office, get back to recapturing the congress. All they had to do was get some guy to pose as a crazed Rush-o-phile, take out Clinton and die in the process. No muss, no fuss, no more embarrassment, and a totally discreditied rising right wing media.

Trouble is there's never a "they".

I dig crazy conspiracies as much as the next guy -- just don't believe 'em. They're novel fodder.

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 06:30 PM

Sorry Chief, he didn't. What Doyle has Holmes say is

It is an old maxim of mine that when you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

Not the same thing at all.

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: kendall
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 08:42 AM

Sure, and I suppose the Communists really did burn the Reichstad.

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: kendall
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 08:43 AM

And Poland really did attack Germany first. PULL the other one!

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 11:25 AM

At the time of his death, Paul Wellstone had pulled far enough ahead in the polls (nearly 10 points and gaining) that it was looking pretty certain that Coleman was going down to defeat. Some Minnesota pollsters had already predicted he might win the race by as many as 20 points.

No, what put Norm Coleman in VP Cheney's seat he's occupying a lot these days at the dais before the US Senate wasn't a conspiracy to kill Paul Wellstone. It was a conspiracy between Republicans at the national level and in the Coleman camp, to exploit Paul Wellstone's death.

It was all about the memorial.

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 11:36 AM

Yeah, right. The Republicans put the Democrats up to holding a rally at a memorial service.

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 11:52 AM

...so Wellstone is enjoying a 20 point lead and then he dies. And you're contending that the emotion from the death and ensuing rally didn't last or mean anything to the Democrat faithful, but the Republican reaction to it did last and even cause a 25 point shift?

Not plausible.

You mean, because it was Mondale instead of Wellstone you didn't vote for him?

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: kendall
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 03:00 PM

Look at the evidence.

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: GUEST,JH
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 05:20 PM

folks alot more expert than I, with direct access to actual physical evidence already have and concluded death by accident. In the words of the popular blog -- move on.

Of course, if some website says there's a conspiracy, well, it must be so.

Subject: RE: Senator Paul Wellstone's death
From: Gareth
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 05:48 PM

Hmmm ! - I do not doubt that Bush and friends were capable of ordering, or hinting ("Will no one rid me of this turbulant priest") the death of the Senator - but suspicians are not proof, and a brouwsing of this site Click 'Ere may answer some questions on the likelyhood of "illogical" pilot error.

That being said there are some very firm political rules of thumb over this side of the pond.

1/. An accidental death of a politician tends not to alter any "National Political Swing" in any subsequent by election, in fact there is a small degree of sympathy vote.

2/. Leaving office for well known health reasons tends not to alter any "National Political Swing" in any subsequent by election.

3/. Leaving office under a scandal, or to take a well paid sinicure, means that all hell is let loose on the "Doorstep" or "telephone bank" in any subsequent by election.

If GWB JNR, or Rove wanted to shaft Wellstone then a staged suicide after allegationbs of Peadophillia (SP) or Bribary, or the like would have been more likely - And again I have little doubt that this could have been arranged.

Just my thoughts ! Though put Foster in this senario - after all the Republican did not stint / Do not stint in any means to destroy the Clitons - and if there is any doubt remaining on his suicide, well who gains ?

Gareth