Is there a folk club mafia ?

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 07:25 AM

I agree with what Anahata said about Eliza's advice - I can think of many other singers who could benefit from it.

Avril - the nearest club is the Tudor Barn at Eltham - youve been there already, haven't you ? Unfortunately it has moved to a Thursday night until May. There is a session at Bough Beech but thats near Hever in Kent.

Sometime there's a session in a pub the other side of Blackwall Tunnel which a few of us go to. The landlord loves folk song and music, but he doesn't have a music license and is worried about being caught by the "PEL police" so we can't advertise it. The other problem is that the Landlady isn't so keen on the music, and is a bit prudish - so I have to refrain from rude songs (which cuts whole chumks out of my repertoire !).

Micca and Khat are friends of the landlord - I'll try and find out if it's on tonight.

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: GUEST,Concerned of Huddersfield
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 07:13 AM

I've head about you and your slipping tongue Mr Bryant, I feel Avril may have to watch her alcohol comsumption when you are adjacent as she gives the impression she is easily led and you sir are a scoundrel

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: treewind
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 06:50 AM

Avril
I don't sing, but my partner Mary Humphreys does and we perform as a duo, with me playing lots of instruments. We're not as famous as Eliza, but you can see (and hear) what we do HERE

If by "same sort of songs" you mean traditional folk songs, then yes, that is what we both like and perform.

You have to understand that in folk music there is a whole spectrum from traditional unaccompanied at one end of the scale to pop music at the other. In between are the revivalists who do traditional songs with modern instruments and contemporary singer/songwriters, together with blues, rock'n'roll and categories I've forgotten to mention. Some folk clubs are very wide ranging in what they like, others tend to specialize. If you can't tell the difference, keep listening.

I probably know less about karaoke that you do about folk music, but I get the impression it's a very easy ride with the backing carrying you along and the words in front of you so you don't have to learn them. Learning to sing and perform properly is a big step up from that and may be harder work than you think. I've been playing my instruments for variously 25-40 years, yet if I don't practice for a few days I can tell my playing's got worse.

Clubs also vary in the standard of performance they expect. Some are all inclusive singarounds designed to let anybody and everybody "have a go" - others are more like concert venues where people pay for their tickets and expect to be entertained professionally. Most come somewhere between those extremes.

Anyway you've had plenty of invitations, some of which you can take reasonably seriously, so go exploring (cat care and transport permitting) and keep working at the songs, and re-read the details of Eliza's advice, which is really quite excellent.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: Avril Betts
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 06:48 AM

Those words were quite funny Ova, but I don't think that I'd like to be spewed over.

Is there anything on near Woolwich tonight, I want to try and sing somewhere without reading the words.

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 06:40 AM

Woops sorry, slip of the tongue - meant Dave Webster

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 06:33 AM

Very good Ova. Sticks and Stones etc - I'm very thick-skinned and there isn't much that will hurt me (except that incident with the ram at Knockholt - OK I was too pissed to realise that it wasn't a sheep).

Avril - Treewind is a feller and plays melodeon.

Dave Webber - is the Woodman still an Irish session ?

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: GUEST,Dave Webster
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 05:43 AM

I heard it used to be cliquey down at the Woodman in Lee S.London, on Sundays, but it's got more democratic with songs and such, again recently. Some people have left or something. I must get along again soon. There was a time when it was 50/50 and now it's come back to that. Will anyone be going to see?

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: GUEST,Ova Consumption
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 05:40 AM

hi Avril

when i'm feeling blue, i try to write a song to make myself feel better. Ive written one for you (hope you like it!)

as i went out walking one morning in March
i espied a young Avril, her voice young and harsch
beside her dave bryant, all nissed as a pewt
and he asked her if she wanted to
to have a play of his flute.

when they kissed so sweet and fumbling
as they spewed on each other
they went arm in arm along the road
each clutchin each t'other
they went armin arm along the road
til they came to a gutter
and the way that davey looked at er
would make your 'eart flutter

.. i'm still working on it,avril, but hope that this will inspire you and help you understand the genre a little. please pm me if you want any further advice, or to go to a club togther soon.

best wishes

Ova

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: GUEST,Jim Ward
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 05:37 AM

Richard Bridge - Who, exactly sneered at your friend for playing a guitar in Bob Copper's club? It certainly would not have been Bob or his family. Bob's one complaint was that so many people thought of them as 'folk purists'. Your posting tends to support this idea when in fact their musical tastes were very diverse. The family songbook, which is still in print, contains just the family songs, but Jim Copper's original songbook, on which it is based, contains all manner of popular songs including Music Hall comic songs, Bing Crosby, Louis Armstrong, The Inkspots and many more, all mixed together.

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: Avril Betts
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 05:25 AM

I think your just joking Gloria, but I found the bit about peeing in DB's beer quite amusing. Really though, I don't like mining songs and I was born in Charlton so I don't really sound as though I come from the north. I've only ever tried guiness once and it tasted like medicine and anyway I'm trying to lose weight. I usually drink either wine or bacardi, but I have to be careful as I get tipsy very easily.

Sorry Eliza, after Treewind's posting I've realised who you are and that your famous - thank you even more for your advice. The only problem with learning the words is that I find it so hard getting them all that into my brain.

Treewind, what sort of songs do you sing, do you like the same sort of songs that Eliza and lots of other women seem to sing ?

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 05:03 AM

Dave is alleged to play the organ quite a lot despite his age. Has anyone seen the evidence?

Avril may I say you seem not to have your roots in "folk" or "folk-style" music? I get the impression that you would really rather be signing soft-rock than interpreting material in the folk tradition (even if the material is not from the tradition), and that you do not really follow and understand the milieu you complain is rejecting you.

I have not seen you perform but you do need to tailor your material. "Traditional folk songs" written by say the Rolling Stones or the Who or Bad Company (I do all three) have a time and a place, and need adaptation to become appropriate. You wouldn't wisely have done them at the late Bob Copper's club, where friend of mine was once much sneered at for doing the Cuddy Wren with a non-traditional instrument namely the guitar.

Words are a pain. You need to have enough songs on board to establish "cred" without words before (with due apology) you can wisely use words even as a "prop".

Likewise socialising may be an impediment to acceptance. Other people do not want their performances ignored or interrupted either.

If you are not going to measure at least approximately up to the minimum necessary standard, then to be welcome to perform rather than merely tolerated (most clubs I think still tolerate pretty nearly anything) you need a persona to go with it. Back in the old days there was a chap (to save his blushes, we'll call him Eleheu, not his real name) who was a dreadful singer and guitarist, although he had (not at the very beginning) quite a nice birds' eye maple Washburn. He simply played up to the joshing, and everyone loved him for it. He was almost always welcome, but he did tend only to get short sets!

Indeed if my memory serves me he was a bit of a serial womaniser, so if he is still out there and above ground, perhpas the two of you are made for each other, particularly if you like older men (only trying to help)

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: GUEST,gloria soame
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 05:01 AM

hi avril

don't let those bastards get to you. that dave bryant is so far up himself, his arse is in his mouth. yes, there is a folk mafia, and if you can't get past it, i suggest you join it. drink guinness, learn to sing a song about mining, and model yourself on some obscure singer from northumbria.

more than anything, if that dave gives you a hard time, offer to get him a beer. when youve paid for it, drop by the ladies'and turn it into a shandy. he's so pissed generally, he'll never notice (or at least he hasn't so far). because the mafia is so relentless in its pursuit of the hirsute, as opposed to the cute, i am writing this under a falsetto name.

and don't worry, avril, there's nothing wrong with having big breasts. they're a handy spot to hide the takings from Dave's wallet, at the end of the evening.

all my good thoughts and encouragement to you - keep singing!

gloria soame.

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: treewind
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 04:53 AM

Avril,
never mind the singers list - Eliza doesn't have any problem getting onto BBC national radio and occasionally the TV!

Yes, she does know a bit about singing...

I think you have a lot of learning to do in several areas.
Learning the words of your songs would solve the glasses/vision problem and would be a good start.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: Avril Betts
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 04:28 AM

Dave Bryant behave yourself. I don't actually play the organ I just sing while the choirmaster does. I'm not a widow, I'm a divorcee and my ex-husband went back to Australia. Your right about the Karioci though, they do use a great big screen but I still have trouble reading the words. I'm not that old either, about the same age as Linda I think.

Eliza, thank you for your nice advice, you sound as if you know quite a lot about singing, I wouldn't think that you have any problems getting on to the singers list.

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 04:04 AM

Avril - Lord of the Dance was written by Sydney Carter not Cartier. Perhaps your comment:-
"I tried with the organ and it was really great" could have been better expressed - it makes me think of a song in the DT which has the lines:

In church at the organ she'd practice each day
While the minister pumped up and down.
His wife caught him pumping the organ one day
And that's why aunt Clara left town.

Wombat - I think Avril may be a little older than Raggy would desire (after all he was quite rude about my beautiful Essex Girl) - but she is a widow (there's been much speculation about what her husband died of) and seems rather keen to find a steady fellow.

Breezy - I have never seen Avril perform "Karioci" (I thought it was a form of Japanese ritual suicide), but at a local pub which does have this sort of entertainment, the words are projected onto one of those huge overhead screens in thumping great letters - so I suppose she can manage to read them.

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 04:03 AM

Not having had the chance to meet Avril in person but realising she has problems with tune and tempo could I suggest the discrete use of a metronome could be advantageous and if not a metronome then perhaps a taxi home

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 03:57 AM

I think most of it is quite good-natured, Eliza, and a tongue or two glued to the cheek also. But I liked the idea of the autoharp for keeping in tune. I have a couple of people in mind that I will suggest it to.

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: breezy
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 03:06 AM

Avril, how do you manage to read the words on the screen for your karioci, do you have to put your face close up to the screen? If so what are the punters looking at?

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 01:05 AM

This is without a doubt the strangest thread I have ever seen on the Mudcat. Avril, you have some guts, and that's for sure. Good luck with the practising, and if you want to learn to play the bodhran properly (it's an instrument after all), listen to John Jo Kelly from Flook, or Gino Lupari. I always liked the McPeakes for singing with the drum, but if it's not played well it can be like listening to someone scritching their nails down a blackboard. People in folk clubs tend to have heard a lot of that, and usually have little patience for it, quite rightly really; it's one of the most abused of instruments, and not easy to do right.
What I would do is learn one or two songs, and learn to do them well without accompaniment. Find a way to focus (I hate singing with my glasses on too, but messing around with bits of paper just confuses your body so it's not set up for singing well or performing to an audience, which is surely why you are there). Or get yourself an autoharp and use that to keep yourself in tune. Get a tape recorder of some kind and listen to yourself, visualise how you can improve your performance. People will be kind if you make an effort.
cheers,
eliza
ps-I hope I never get on the wrong side of any of you! :-) I would find it very hard to cope with some of the personal attacks on this thread. Ouch. Peace and love chaps.

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 12:09 AM

Had a dog that would sit on a stool sent him to Saudi Arabia and made a fair profit....not to mention the increased revenue from decreased dog-food.

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 06:56 PM

This thread feels a little choreographed to me...

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: Wombat at work
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 06:50 PM

What's going on here then?   Wait till I get hold of that Raggy when I get home from work. More to the point, wait till I get hold of this Avril person. The only person she'll be having a duel with is me if she tries to get her hands on my Raggy.................

Wombat (aka Mrs Raggytash)

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 06:41 PM

Avril, Darling,

I have already suggetsed to Mr Bryant that his venom is misplaced and that if he wishes to vent his spleen on anyone he should do so on me, as I have the wherewithal to withstand his monsterous invective.
If you should seek solace and comfort and wish to confront this monster with like minded people (I sing Leonard Cohen songs in folk clubs)may I invite you to the duel between myself, My Leige, MC Fat, Mr (and I use the term loosely) Bryant and some usurper who goes under the pseudonym Klingonman, which will be held in a suitable beer emporium in Whitby during the wonderful extravaganza oF British Folk Music in August. Accomodation can be provided, as I have a luxury caravan available for ALL eventualities

You may call me Raggy :-)

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: Avril Betts
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 06:39 PM

Johnikins my cat has woken me up and I couldn't get back to sleep again, so I've logged in on my PC. I couldn't go to a folk club tonight because it's church choir practice on Tuesdays. Guess what - I asked the choirmaster if I could sing Lord of the Dance as a solo and he said yes. I wanted to sing it because Sidney Cartier has died. We went into the main church and I tried with the organ and it was really great.

Is Essex Girl the same person as Linda, if so I don't think she likes me very much. Someone asked me why I don't wear contact lenses - it's because I'm so shortsighted that I need very thick lenses which are made of special glass called high reflective index or something, and they can't make that sort of contact lense. Because of that, I need to get very close to people to see who they are and other women always think that I'm trying to get off with their men when I do.

Better go now my pussie needs seeing to.

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: breezy
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 06:28 PM

Maybe Avril you ought to go to the U s of a where you would be tolerated as they have a more liberal attitude.

Any offers of hospitalty?

El Grek, I'm keeping an eye on you!

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 06:17 PM

Hi Breezy

I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: breezy
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 06:15 PM

Did you make Sharps?
Yes, El Greko and his wife are a genuinely lovely couple.
Richard, you are out of order.
Say sorry.

avril . will you make Maidenhead?

pm Bryant ,but make sure essex girl is there.

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: breezy
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 06:10 PM

Not in public, richard please!

Avril, have you heard about greeks bearing gifts? say no more.

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 06:03 PM

Ninety-nine bonk

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: Avril Betts
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 06:02 PM

Richard Bridge, and all the rest of you letches out there, I don't want to give the impression that I am an easy "lay", just because I said I am looking to find a soulmate! All I want is a chance to be accepted for what I am, an ordinary person that likes music and likes to sing. And if I like Karioci it doesn't mean I am not suitable for folk clubs, treewind!

I am willing to listen and learn. why don't others listen to me though? Why is it I who has to conform with the establishment and it's silly rules? As far as I can tell so far, I only got cattiness from CatsPhiddle, mortification from Morticia, and letcherous approaches form the rest of you. Except for El Greko and his darling wife who were willing to accept me for what I am...

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 05:29 PM

The classic Belgian beef stew is called 'carbonnade' and the best recipe for it I have seen is in Michael Jackson's Guide to Beers of the World Doubtless you can fine it online.

Hi April.

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: Rasener
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 01:41 PM

Tell me who is on in in July, then.

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: breezy
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 12:42 PM

Perhaps I was momentarily thinking of some else who I remember from my days at the Crypt of St Marys Folk Club in Woolwich.

Memory plays funny tricks at tea time.

Just had me plumbing seen to - new ball and cock - and I got given the 1st verse of the Plumbers song. Its set to the tune of Danny Boy.
Credit to Simon Barnet

it goes

Oh damn it boy, the pipes the pipes are leadking
from tank to tank and down the mouldering wall
My bedrooms wet, the whole house damp and freezing
Tissue, tissue, I've caught a cold an all

there are 3 more verses, anyone interested?

So its Sharps tonight then?

Whose on in July?

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 12:37 PM

Well in dog showing there used to be a distinct tendency to judge what's on the other end of the lead.....

This is palliated by going and "showing out" - and Avril m'girl it sounds as if you can manage that. I look forward to bumping into you. S l o w l y.

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 11:08 AM

Well you're getting plenty of offers and suggestions Avril old girl. As you work in London - why not try Sharps at Cecil Sharp House (Camden Town tube) - it's on tonight. Linda and I have managed to get from Camden Town back to Charing + (or London Bridge) to catch the last train to Mottingham - so you should be able to make it back to Woolwich.

Incidently Breezy - Avril isn't blonde - her hair is black (although I think she dyes it).

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: concertina ceol
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 10:24 AM

I went to traveling folk for the first time about ten days ago. Have to say I thought it was brilliant. They were exceptionally friendly and there was a good selection/rotation of singers. But have to say to anyone thinking of joining in anything - you have to have respect for what is already going on. If the club/session is traditional english then I think the people there have an expectation that singers will sing traditional english. If you go to an irish session, people expect you to sing irish songs. I think it is only polite to listen to what is happening, and then offer something that is appropriate.

I love to sing and I also play concertina for morris. My philosophy has always been morris music stays at the door - people usually want something different inside. I can't believe the number of times I been to morris things where as soon as you get in the bar the "melodeon chorus" plays exactly the same tunes all over again!

BTW travelling folk is spread over the most rural areas of Kent where there is no public transport - a car (and map/compass) are essential!

Good luck with the new songs Avril - listen to June Tabor, Norma Waterson, Eliza Carthy, Niamh Parsons, Kate Rusby, Bill Jones, Chris While, The Copper Family, Brass Monkey etc. etc. etc. - the beauty of folk music is that there is such a huge body of songs available, you are bound to find something to suit you, and that other people want to hear.

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 10:06 AM

eyesight probs - don't like glasses - try the new wonderfull invention

Contact Lenses!

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: breezy
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 09:52 AM

Liz, dont joke because I have to say that I feel that there is a situation up here in S-W herts where certain people appear to control happenings and events to the exclusion of local talent, and are openly hostile to others who show enterprise and initiative.


Avril, in all blondness you would be banging your talents against a brick wall should you come over this way, especially on a
Thursday, however is Maidenhead Folk Club, within your radius? el grek sometimes visits there, I'm sure he would like to meet you.

I'm afraid this Friday in St Albans at the Duke of Marlborough the evening is already planned for the visit of Tommy Sands.

Perhaps you could arrange for Dave to bring you over when he is scheduled to appear May and we could experience you for ourselves and share with you our honest opinion and evaluate where your at.

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 09:43 AM

What's a Belgian stew ? Actually interested in cooking

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 09:28 AM

Huh.. that's the last time I look after a strange melodeon case......

Anyone fancy a nice Belgian stew for dinner?

LTS

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 09:27 AM

If it's male, I wouldn't put in in Avril's bed - she might be encouraged.

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 09:10 AM

Look, will someone please tell me where this hobby horse head is supposed to go?

LTS

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 08:57 AM

John, can't you manage to get all your thoughts together at once so you can put them all in the same posting ?

Linda - you know what shape Avril is - she'd have a hard job getting close enough to anyone to actually tread on their toes - someone as short as Breezy would probably suffocate first ! - he might enjoy it though.

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: breezy
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 08:23 AM

its controlling that dave geezer

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: breezy
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 08:22 AM

its not the toes that are the problem.

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: breezy
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 08:18 AM

2 mins Harrow/Wealdstone Station 15 mins from Euston,
2 days from Woolwich Arse n ole































For the benefit of our overseas catters and others who think we've gone and fallen off our trolleys 'ere in the sarfeastof london tarn
let me explain ,

thats a joke on Woolwich Arsenal , the name of the train station to get into London, also where The Arsenal Football club had its origins

Being where armaments were held for major conflicts

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: Essex Girl
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 08:10 AM

Just come back to this thread, what's this about Avril & Dave, Khat?. I thought there were several unattached men on the folk scene in this area who would be more receptive. Come on lads, help Avril out, I know at least two of you who couid accompany her without treading on anyones toes.

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 07:44 AM

If it was a dead heat in a zepelin race surely she would be singing dirrigable dirges wouldn't she?

Anyway, what do you mean there is no such thing as the folk club Mafia? What are all them violin cases for? Eh?

Just watch it or you will end up at the bottom of the deep blue sea, blue sea, the bottom of the deep blue sea. With a concrete bodhran...

Dave "Fingers" Gnomioni

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 07:02 AM

Come off it Breezy - you've already done some advertising on it - I don't believe for one moment that George is really upset about Avril not turning up at Herga last night, it's not the easiest place to find by public transport.

Avril, you can find a site for Travelling Folk here. If you're talking about the same Alec as I think, I used to give him floorspots years ago when I ran Blackheath folk club. These days he never seems to want to perform even if asked.

Subject: RE: Is there a folk club mafia ?
From: GUEST,Dr. Quelch
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 06:45 AM

Poisson d`avril? Pas avant le jeudi!