Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:29 PM

I guess I am an old guy at 46. Still, it is much better than being an 18 year old troll. At least the other Guest (2) made some legitimate comments.

I can see that what was a discussion has turned into something else. Probably best to end it since your school bell is probably about to ring. Good luck with your homework this weekend.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:27 PM

GUESTED AGAIN!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:27 PM

Will the real GUEST please stand up?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:26 PM

I am sick. I need help.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:25 PM

Dylan turned me on.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:22 PM

Whatever. Your "I'm a fine, upstanding male role model" schtick doesn't fool me Ron. You are still an old guy getting your jollies looking at the nearly naked girl gyrating around in a ladies lingerie commercial, just like the washed up, dirty old perv rock star.

The fact that you like the dirty old perv rock star just makes you feel cleaner about it.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Victoria
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:17 PM

Oooo, guest, you are a little touchy aren't you? Pervert.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:15 PM

Guest, thank you so much! Based on the definition of "leer", I love to LEER!   I make no apologies for looking and enjoying a beautiful woman. That does not mean I make inappropriate and unwanted comments to women OR men. I can also see a distinction between pornography and art, not that I would try to push my values on others. I respect my marriage, protect my children, and pay my taxes. I guess I am "PC". If I knew who you were, I suppose I could pay you some compliments as well.

from Merriam-Webster:   
Leer - to cast a sidelong glance; especially : to give a leer

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:15 PM

Guess I nailed you for what you are brucie, considering the vehemence of your responses to me.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:13 PM

GUEST: You are a piece of shit. I haven't seen the ad, mostly because I don't watch ads or television. You are cheap, but anonymous people are often like that.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:12 PM

You're missing the point. Penguin Lust is a much more serious problem than this ad, which will soon be forgotten. Meanwhile, Penguin Lust stalks the streets of our nation unchecked! Go to the BS section (below) now, and learn the awful truth!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:11 PM

Dylan comes off as a dirty old pervert in this ad. It really is that simple. It is creepy as hell.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:08 PM

Oooh, a little touchy there, aren't we fellas?

Why do I find it so hard to believe brucie doesn't know what Victoria's Secret is, yet he was the second poster to the thread, and seems to be relishing the banter among the boys throughout the thread, considering his number and the nature of his posts to it, hmmmm?

So some of you fellas don't like the fact that someone associated a Bob Dylan commercial for ladies scanty lingerie with dirty old men and leering perverts?

I think that is YOUR problem, boys, not mine.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:08 PM

GUEST: Me thinks thou doth protest too much. I bet you watch TV, buy magazines, are influenced by ads. You seem to know what Victoria's Secret is. Why do you know this, and why do you lurk in dark corners moralizing? Why do you not have the guts to sign your name? You are likely who the ad is aimed at. And on you, it would work.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:07 PM

"The ad portrays an old, powerful male (Bob Dylan) getting his jollies leering at the young, scantily clad, innocent girl (ie the angel)."

Funny, dressed in black with that mustache and goatee I say Dylan's character was a very specific fallen angel. The devil really did make him do it. The kick for the ad is that hee doesn't want to be tempted by what he sees that's good.

(PS, by this interpretation, the female angel character wouldn't have to be young at all. Young looking, perhaps, but immortal after all.)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:01 PM

You sure as shit sound PC there, Ron. I'm not buying it in light of your previous remarks, though. You're leering too.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:00 PM

Asshole, I don't even know what Victoria's Secret is. I gather it's a fashion company of some sort. F#ck you, too.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 02:58 PM

Feeling a little nervous under cross-examination, eh brucie?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 02:55 PM

Guest2, this is a difficult subject for anyone to find middle ground. I truly understand your points and I do agree that too many commercials and pop culture lean toward promoting sexuality at the cost of respect for dignity and basic rights.

At the same time, I do not feel that I should feel guilty for appreciating the beauty of another human form. While the instances that you mention do describe an unfortunate attitude in society, I don't believe that most men fall into that catagory. Looking at a Victoria's Secret catalog does not make a person a "pedophile". After watching the commercial, I am not going to make lewd remarks to my female coworkers. Men that have those sort of "issues" are going to have those problems regardless of what society throws at them. People learn respect, or disrespect, for the opposite sex much earlier AND at home.

While men (myself included) will glance at a Victoria's Secret catalog, we are not going to go out and buy the product. Any company that markets themselves to people that aren't going to do business with them are not long for the market.

I completely disagree with your description of Bob Dylan as "leering" and "getting his jollies". While you may interpret him as a "powerful male", I think there are others that would disagree. I have seen Dylan in concert many times over the years, and this is bascially his normal look.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 02:53 PM

Like, is it a hot flash or news that ads target people? Do you see any difference between this ad and an ad that was aired years ago in which a car came to a stop in the desert and about a half dozen scantily clad young ladies appeared from lord knows where and proceeded to drape themselves on the hood of the car?

Do you really think that this ad will make one damn bit of difference to the crap that goes on in the world? Really?

We have had professional sports people advertising shoes made by enslaved children in SouthEast Asia. Is this any more lewd or disgusting than that? We use tax money to have farmers burn wheat crops rather than get that 'surplus' food to where people can eat it. Millions starve to death every year on this planet, and the moral f#ckin' majority is worried about some ad that don't amount to a hill of beans.

If you want to change the ad or its airing, write a letter to the Victoria's Secret company and let them know you disagree, and why. Refuse to buy their products. Act, don't posture.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 02:43 PM

I want the lingerie for penguins.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 02:42 PM

The ad is targeting older men, in an attempt to get them to buy Victoria's Secret lingerie for women they know.

The whole Victoria's Secret thing is notoriously provocative and engenders a lot of anger from women of all ages.

From all women? Absolutely not. Women of all ages shop at and buy from the Victoria's Secret catalog.

Does the fact that many women buy Victoria's Secret Products mean Victoria's Secret's advertising doesn't make many women who don't buy their products, feel that Victoria's Secret is sexually exploitative and demeaning to them as women?

No.

Regardless of where you come down on the Dylan ad being provocative, disgusting, annoying, or whatever, does anyone here really believe the woman in the ad ISN'T intended to be a sex toy for the old man?

The old men commenting upon the ad in this thread are certainly suggesting through innuendo, that she is.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 02:31 PM

You're just jealous, Peter, because your own attempts to grow a Vincent Price mustache failed miserably... :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,02 Apr 04 - 08:45 AM
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 02:31 PM

The ad does call into question just who the company is target mareketing to with the ad. Does anyone here believe that the ad for women's lingerie is actually directed towards young women of the age of the model? Or is it directed at older men who (like a lot of the men here, if this thread is anything to go by) enjoy looking at the Victoria's Secret model?

Lest we forget, there is some controversy about Victoria's Secret advertising and their prime time "special" that has aired. Here is a link to an online political forum discussion about it:

America's Debate forum

And then there is the recent workplace sexual harassment court case, involving charges against a Hartford CT police chief and his deputy, which alleges that the chief fired a female officer for union activities. The fired female officer also alleges, among other things, overhearing the male chiefs and officers making lewd remarks, and beinf forced to "tolerate" pornographic material displayed in the workplace. The suit also alleges the deputy chief handed the female officer a Victoria's Secret catalog, and told her to pick something out.

The ad portrays an old, powerful male (Bob Dylan) getting his jollies leering at the young, scantily clad, innocent girl (ie the angel). That sort of says it all, IMO.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peter T.
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 02:27 PM

I think growing that creepy Vincent Price mustache went to his head, and he decided to be a creep.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 02:23 PM

I agree with everything you say guest, but I just don't see the connection to the Bob Dylan commercial. I guess my interpretation comes with age.

It sounds like your daughter has suffered from some sort of harrassement, and if that is the case I am truly sorry. I do know women who have suffered the same injustice and it can not be tolerated.

Perhaps it is because I a male, or perhaps there is something with the geographic and cultural differences of our situation, but I also know that the situation that you describe is not necessarily the "norm" everywhere.   People can celebrate beauty and sexuality without infringing on others.   I do not consider the Dylan commercial to be "pornography", nor do I think that the woman is being vicitimized.   While I do respect the opinion that you share with your daughter, I do think there has to be a line drawn on what is appropriate and what is inappropriate.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 02:11 PM

Shatner would have been marvelous for a Victoria's Secret ad, and would certainly not have turned it down. He is much less ambivalent about females than Bob Dylan, and would definitely have looked right at the model with rapt attention and an appreciative smirk, no doubt. I am frankly amazed that Victoria's Secret did not realize this and insist on having Shatner. Still, getting Bob in the ad was a notable coup for them, of course.

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,02 Apr 04 - 08:45 AM
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 02:04 PM

I think older men are going to interpret the commercial quite differently from young women who often don't make any distinctions whatsoever between workplace sexual harassment, and sexual harassment in general. Young women also report a pretty high incidence of sexual harassment by older males while in junior and senior high, as well harassment by male teens.

Teen sexual harassment in the schools is a phenomenon closely associated with bullying, BTW.

I don't think a young woman like my daughter, living, working in a job with high public visibility, and going to college, makes the same distinctions older men do about these things. Why? It should be obvious. Older men rarely (if ever, I've never heard of a single actual incident of over-40 men being sexually harassed, despite the Michael Douglas factor) are victims of sexual assault, abduction by a sexual predator, or workplace sexual harassement. And it goes without saying, that in academic settings, it would be pretty rare to see an over-40 male in a position of being victimized, as they are the ones who usually hold the positions of power over younger women.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 01:55 PM

Let's not confuse two separate issues Guest.   What that article points to is a huge problem and should not be tolerated. No person should have to work in any condition like the one described. Sexual harrassement is something that we cannot accept. It must be fought.

However, to compare that to the Dylan commercial seems odd. The fact that Dylan is an older man does not make him a "dirty old man". You interpret his look as a "leer", but I don't think there was a single scene where he actually looked directly at the woman. This was not a "girl" but an adult.   There was nothing inappropriate in either actors actions.

There is a difference, and unfortunately not every male sees it, between appropriate conduct and unwanted advances.   There is no reason to hide from sexuality and admiring the looks of another is not wrong. The problem becomes when looks and lust become the sole intent, and it is hard to draw that type of inference from the commercial that I viewed.

And an aside to PeterT - Dylan NEVER "sold out". He was always himself, and that is the message.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,02 Apr 04 - 08:45 AM
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 01:34 PM

I'm in complete agreement with Peter's 02 Apr 04 - 12:24 PM post.

Actually, the "pedophile perv" remark of my daughter's was simply a female teen using the language of her peers to describe what females in my generation would have described as "the dirty old man".

Same thing. I agree with her assessment pretty much. I saw the commercial, and was revulsed in the same way she was. We both saw the commercial while watching tv together, and neither of us had any knowledge of it prior to seeing it. We weren't reacting to Dylan per se, but to the image of an old man leering at a young female "angel". Today's female teens don't make many distinctions between older male/young female pornography and pedophilia.

Older men may not like the fact that today's female teens view the world that way, but that is the way most of them see it.

Here is an excerpt from an article in yesterday's Minneapolis Star Tribune, which reflects the girls' realities (I quote from it and provide the link, because the Star Tribune links only last about 48-72 hours):

http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/4698537.html


"Last update: March 31, 2004 at 11:24 PM
Workplace often ugly for young women
H.J. Cummins, Star Tribune
April 1, 2004HARASS0401
At 16, Erin Ceynar worked the counter at a fast food restaurant in a small Minnesota town. Some of the guys at this, her first job, enjoyed sharing the details of their girlfriends' sexual favors. Her boss drank his coffee from a mug shaped like a woman's breast.

"I felt creeped out, violated in a way I couldn't even have described at the time," said Ceynar, now 30 and a manager at the Women's Foundation of Minnesota. "But I didn't say anything. I was thinking of sexual harassment like rape scenes in movies, where people were hiding in the bushes. I knew these people. I even liked them. So, how could I think something was wrong about them?"

It was an ugly introduction to life as a working woman, but it's the one that greets one in three young Minnesota women in their earliest jobs, according to a new study out of the University of Minnesota. Experts call it a rare look at sexual harassment of young workers -- amid research that so far has concentrated on adults at work or young people in school."

My daughter said the Dylan Victoria's Secret commercial "creeped her out in a Dru Sjodin sort of way".

Who is Dru Sjodin? Go here:

Dru Sjodin story of coed abducted leaving her Victoria's Secret job

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 12:29 PM

I wonder if he's bringing it all back home? This is the freewheelin' bob dylan, another side of bob dylan. William Shatner probably turned the role down.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 12:28 PM

Granted, the young lady is a fair bit younger than Bob, but if she wasn't she wouldn't be a young lady at all.

I suppose they could do a Calender Girl version. Not a bad idea maybe. But I imagine not in line with the company's sales policy.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peter T.
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 12:24 PM

No, stupid sell-out misogynist jerk is more like it. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 09:39 AM

Guest - I think your daughter needs to get out more if she is reading "pedophile pervert" in that commercial. That is a real stretch to make that connection.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 08:45 AM

My 19 yr old daughter said she found it totally creepy in pedophile pervert sort of way.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: JJ
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 08:11 AM

Ron, the commercial can't POSSIBLY be as weird as "Masked and Anonymous!"

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 07:05 AM

A great sardonic leer he's got there. Those links crashed Internet Explorer for some reason, so I tried Mozilla and that worked fine. As Amos said, "I think I know how he feels".

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Big Tim
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 05:28 AM

He's also putting out his own wine. Knocked Out Loaded?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Jeanie
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:48 AM

Ah, I see what's happening here! "Victoria's Secret" must be the U.S. equivalent of "Joanna Southcott's Box" here in England. The prophetic secrets contained in Joanna Southcott's box can be revealed only in the collective presence of 24 Bishops of the Church of England. (Not happened yet, several centuries later). In a similar way, Victoria's Secrets will only be revealed in the presence of 24 singer-songwriters. Dylan is No. 1 on the list. Who's next, I wonder ?

(Somehow, I think the people of Britain have drawn the short straw, here.)

- jeanie

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 09:30 PM

Victoria's Secret always does their stuff well.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 07:36 PM

Aside from the laugh factor which is purely based on the idea, the actual commercial is very well done.

I'm glad he turned down the offer from Geritol!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 07:33 PM

Yeah, that's the way I see it too. He's having a great time. What a laugh to see Bob advertising for Victoria's Secret!

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 07:32 PM

I just watched the commercial again, and this time I paid attention to Dylan. Maybe it is the scenary or the company he is keeping, but he really looks good in this commercial. They cleaned him up good!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 07:26 PM

This is NOT an April Fools day prank Bill!   Dylan doesn't need the money, he is just having a great time.

I'm jealous.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 06:49 PM

Naw. He ain't wearin' a dress, I don't think.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 06:43 PM

The devil made him do it.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 06:21 PM

Well---itis April Fool's Day---so perhaps now we can believe that Dylan is the personification of a commercial "old" fool.   At least not on the way to the bank.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 06:12 PM

"No, no, no, it ain't he babe . . .".

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 05:41 PM

"She moves just like a woman..."

Art

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 05:14 PM

lmao--Good one, Ron.