God wants armed nudists

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 May 04 - 04:16 PM

Oh. Okay, BB, understood.

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 May 04 - 04:15 PM

Amos - Well, it could be from a single higher source...but filtered through the very different perceptions and personalities of the various writers...resulting in various conflicting pieces of information. For instance, I've always found Paul's writings to be quite peculiar in some respects. I get the feeling he did not like women very much, for example. I think Paul hijacked the whole religion, in fact.

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 May 04 - 04:14 PM

my emoticon... glasses and beard.



It means I do not choose to make a reply to your question at this time.

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 May 04 - 04:12 PM

Is that supposed to be a face with a mustache? Or does it mean "Eat me!"? Seriously, I don't know what you mean by that symbol.

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 May 04 - 04:10 PM

8-{E

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 May 04 - 03:59 PM

Yes, but is it a Shatner-based issue?!!!

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 May 04 - 03:56 PM

Amos:

On this I agree with you 100%

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: Amos
Date: 31 May 04 - 03:52 PM

If I were a member of the church shown in BB's link I would come to too conclusions very rapidly.

One is that some people want to control, and have no interest in religious issues, but are purely involved in politicizing the group for personal gain.

The other is that anyone who would kowtow to that kind of authoritarian dictatorial Grundyism lacks the spine to stand up for their own freedoms, or mine, and I didn't need them in my life.

I would then abandon such a group post-haste and find a better way to pursue my religious interests than dancing with a bunch of control-freaks.

The Bible has nothing to do with it. It is riddled with contradictions requiring subtle and flexible justifications as interpretations, or requiring outright rejection. It is a hodgepodge of viewpoints. The very thought that it could be dictated by a single, higher, spiritual viewpoint is close to ridiculous, sorry. It is much too internally inconsistent to be the product of a single Consciousness, no matter how grandiose.

A

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 May 04 - 03:41 PM

I'm curious, BB, why does agreeing with me about something cause you to shudder? :-) I'd really like to know. (Is it because of politics or UFO's? Or is it a William Shatner-based issue?)

Anyone who believes in a God at all is eager to know what eternal truths might emanate from that God. Accordingly, they usually rely on the opinions of other people...people whom they trust...as to WHERE those truths might be found. This is how people in a Christian civilization end up going to the Bible for "the Word", while people in a Muslim civilization end up going to the Q'ran, and people in a Hindu society end up going to the Baghavad Gita, and Bahai's end up going to all of the above...but with special emphasis on the more recent writings of Baha'Ullah and his family.

The wisest people I have ever had the good fortune to meet find the eternal truths in all of those sources mentioned above (and in many others), while not being exclusive about the matter. This results in people who do not fight religious wars, do not persecute people for belonging to another faith, and find some goodness in all people regardless of their outward beliefs.

A prophet will always speak to people in the vernacular of their time, according to the expectations of their time. Translations of his or her words several thousand years later are easily misinterpreted. I'd say, pay close attention to the behaviour of the prophet if you want to get the message. Jesus didn't attack people with swords. He didn't harm people. He healed them. He showed great compassion. He rebuked those doing the most evil things, but he did not harm them in any way. That's a powerful demonstration of enlightenment.

It can easily be seen that if all people were to behave similarly to his example the World would be a much better place for it and we would not be experiencing wars, crime, and other such problems. We would be a peaceful community of brothers and sisters living in equality, and sharing what we had with one another. That's something worthy of aspiring to. The greatest victory is the one which enables all participants to win.

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 May 04 - 03:30 PM

"Oppose laws"

Which tells me that the Church has no business being involved in ant earthly kingdoms... I am afraid they have been overstepping their bounds for the last 2000 years...

"You just need to read some of the other parts to see that's not entirely true. "

What right has any religion to oppose (or encourage) laws that apply to non-members of their faith? Is it moral to apply my set of standards, from my religion, to the laws that are for all citizens? They have the right to do whatever they like to their own members- that is what being a member of a religious group means. BUT, they have no right to push laws that limit the freedoms of people not of their faith.

And yes, I object to the (defacto) laws forbidding the use of cars in some places in Israel during the Sabbeth.



If I am a member of a group that believes that all members should tithe, do I have the right to demand that non-mambers tithe, and work for laws to enforce that? If you think so, start sending me money.

(As an ordained minister, I will even let you write it off as a tax deducttion- though the government might not. But then, I have a Higher Authority...)

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 May 04 - 03:06 PM

Perhaps, in some places... Here they like to use ECT.

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 May 04 - 02:59 PM

elect them to parliament....?

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 May 04 - 02:43 PM

The problem that I see is that NONE of the versions of ANY religious text have been written by God/Goddess(s). They are all written by humans, each with his/her own axe to grind. I was shown a Bible, and told it was the literal word of God- It was printed in 1902, in Philadelphia.... Another was printed in 1830, and had a bunch of different words. It, too, was the literal word of God. So, If I write my own, can I claim it is the literal word of God, and demand that everyone act according to what is written? Are you going to tell me that those other people were "inspired" by God, but I could not be?

Do you know what they do to people who listen to the voice(s) in their heads, and do what they are told?

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: Strick
Date: 31 May 04 - 02:16 PM

True. you are entitled to form whatever opinion you want to. But others have formed different opinions, on some topic. Otherwise, there would be not reason to question it.

But I do rely on good authorities when I can.

"No, "Puff, the Magic Dragon" is not about marijuana, or any other type of drug. It is what its writers have always claimed it to be: a song about the innocence of childhood lost."

Puff the Magic Dragon - snopes.com

Which tells me that the Church has no business being involved in ant earthly kingdoms... I am afraid they have been overstepping their bounds for the last 2000 years...

You just need to read some of the other parts to see that's not entirely true.

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 May 04 - 01:19 PM

"You know, I don't have to actually have a conversation with Peter Yarrow to form the opinion that "Puff the Magic Dragon" is about nothing more than a boy and his toy."


True. you are entitled to form whatever opinion you want to. But others have formed different opinions, on some topic. Otherwise, there would be not reason to question it.


"John 18:36
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

Which tells me that the Church has no business being involved in ant earthly kingdoms... I am afraid they have been overstepping their bounds for the last 2000 years...

WYSIWYG, I have no problem with your viewpoint. This thread is in response to individuals telling me that because they believe something that the rest of the world has to agree. I have read the New Testament entirely, twice- and continue to read various translations as I find them. I agree with LH (shudder) that most, if not all of the religious texts used as a basis for various religions have some aspect of "truth", if only as a set of rules for dealing with one's fellow humans. I am glad that you have found whatever you have found in the Bible.

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 May 04 - 11:20 AM

I was thinking yesterday that a letter from someone you know well and love dearly will have a deeper significance than one from a stranger or an enemy. Maybe this is part of the truth that without yielded belief, we do not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.... Who helps us understand what we have been taught. In any event, unless one approaches the Word as the living thing it is, and receives it in right relationship (He's God, we ain't), we are reduced to wringing the words in clenched, frustrated hands, demanding MAKE SENSE when what they actually are designed to do is make love-- to be caressed and snuggled into.

I don't know anyone in this thread well enough to know whether my comments have any relevance to what has been said, but it is a meditation that has been on my heart for some time, and so I decided to see if it could find words.

YMMV

~Susan

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: Strick
Date: 31 May 04 - 10:52 AM

I am glad that you have such a knowledge of what he meant... Does he talk to you often? (as opposed to talking to the rest of us...)

You know, I don't have to actually have a conversation with Peter Yarrow to form the opinion that "Puff the Magic Dragon" is about nothing more than a boy and his toy.

Is it a metaphor because you don't want to admit that Jesus was a violent revolutionary?

No, just an integration of all the things He said and His actions. The only violent act in any of his bios was overturning the tables of the money changers at the Temple (though you could call withering the fig tree "violence"). Everywhere else he makes it clear that, at least on the first visit, it's not about changing the world through violence. Even his disciples wanted him to lead a revolution. He kept telling them he was, just not the kind they were expecting.

Gee, and I always pictured him muttering "Bunch of idealistic fools: How do they think we are going to get anywhere without a power base?"

More like that despite all they had seen and heard, they didn't know real power when they saw it.

John 18:36
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 May 04 - 09:36 AM

Luke 22:

47 And while he yet spake, behold a multitude, and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near unto Jesus to kiss him.

48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?

49 When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword?

50 And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.

51 And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him.

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 May 04 - 08:24 AM

Or maybe he decided that two swords were not sufficient to fight off the crowd that had shown up to arrest him.

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 May 04 - 06:50 AM

"He obviously wasn't talking about literal swords, since he rebuked Peter for cutting the guy's ear off with one in the garden, and he then healed the ear. The swords were metaphorical."

I am not so sure. Maybe he was just so digusted at Peter's incompetence with the sword. If I tell you to arm yourself for conflict, and you use that arm inappropriately, does that mean I did not tell you to arm yourself?

The swords were real. The statement is a statement of what Jesus wanted his followers to do.

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 May 04 - 06:49 PM

He obviously wasn't talking about literal swords, since he rebuked Peter for cutting the guy's ear off with one in the garden, and he then healed the ear. The swords were metaphorical.

I wonder which is the most notable holy book on Ganymede 4 or Arcturus 9 right now? It would be interesting to see what they said.

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 May 04 - 04:25 PM

"When they tell Jesus that they have two swords in the following verse, I've always pictured him shaking his head in disbelief at their literalness and saying, "That is enough"."

Gee, and I always pictured him muttering "Bunch of idealistic fools: How do they think we are going to get anywhere without a power base?"

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 May 04 - 04:22 PM

beer vs notion... depends on the beer. I have a good many notions....

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 May 04 - 04:21 PM

"Thou art God" ? Not a problem for me....

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: Blackcatter
Date: 30 May 04 - 04:20 PM

You go for the notion - I'm going for a beer.

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 May 04 - 04:15 PM

Given the fact that God has about a billion trillion planets to look after what makes you think he wrote one obscure religious book on this one?

Unless, of course, you are speaking in this sense: God supplies the motive force that allows every person to write...therefore God wrote all the books.

I could go for that notion.

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 May 04 - 04:13 PM

Little Hawk:

I hate to say this ( really), but I agree with you. Of course, not one of the religions I know of actually FOLLOW the word of God ( even as they see it).

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 May 04 - 04:11 PM

For anyone who wants to tell me what God really meant when he wrote some line in the Bible, PLEASE see my post of 29 May 04 - 12:59 PM . It will move things along a lot faster.

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 May 04 - 04:10 PM

Given the fact that there are a whole bunch of other sacred texts we could be debating about, in addition to the Bible, this is just the beginning. There are lots more things we could argue about, believe me. There's the Book of Mormon, the Baghavad Gita, the Upanishads, the Buddhist writings, the Sikh writings, and so on, and so on, and so on. It's really endless. Oh yeah, and the Q'ran too. And then some more recent ones as well. Ever read Sri Aurobindo? No? I thought not. Very intellectual and impressive stuff, I can asssure you.

And here's the ticket: Whichever book or set of books YOU decided is "the ONE and ONLY Word of God" will depend entirely on this...where did you grow up? who did you listen to? whose word did you decide to trust on the matter? what were your cultural influences?

In other words, it's arbitrary.

Me, I think they just might all be the Word of God. I'm a bit radical, of course, and don't mind a ship that flies under multiple flags in the least. I see some good in all of them.

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 May 04 - 04:08 PM

btw,

"John 1:1a & 14
In the beginning was the Word...The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us".

Isn't the "Word " a metaphor for a tapeworm? If not, why not???

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 May 04 - 03:26 PM

Just wondering. Would radical feminist theology assert that the naked sword-carrier is in fact a description of male authority?

:~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 May 04 - 03:24 PM

"In your first quote, Jesus was speaking metaphorically, "

   I am glad that you have such a knowledge of what he meant... Does he talk to you often? (as opposed to talking to the rest of us...)


Is it a metaphor because you don't want to admit that Jesus was a violent revolutionary?

Sometimes, I think that one has to accept the words as they were said, rather than as on would want them to be.

The Church made enough changes to back up their viewpoint and authority. The parts they could not change were too well know for them to alter.

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 May 04 - 03:23 PM

"go naked and carry a sword" = "walk softly and carry a big stick"?

~S~

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: Strick
Date: 30 May 04 - 03:15 PM

"yes, but, not being God, I cannot turn my tongue into a sword...

The quote from John does not seem applicable."

Ah, but you're very points show it's applicability. The trick is you don't need to turn you're tongue into a sword or even carry one for God to achieve his purpose. In your first quote, Jesus was speaking metaphorically, warning his disciples to expect tough times ahead. The Twelve always were a little dense, you know. When they tell Jesus that they have two swords in the following verse, I've always pictured him shaking his head in disbelief at their literalness and saying, "That is enough". In truth two swords were really more than enough. Didn't need them at all.

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 May 04 - 03:13 PM

Ah, but that the tricky thing with Scripture. You have to balance each thing with everything else in there, and see each piece from an integrated contextual view of the while shebang. That's why proof-texting (using a concordance to find one or more "Scriptural" basis for a rigid, preciously-held personal position) is a dead giveaway that someone doesn't really know Scripture, just a pack of citations for indivdual verses. (Not what I see you doing BTW.)

~Susan

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 May 04 - 03:09 PM

I meant a real sword, or two. I do not see a figurative one in the text...

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 May 04 - 03:06 PM

"God wants armed nudists".... and I have been wondering just WHAT to wear to the Diocesan Convention coming up!

Actually, armed nudists is not so far off the track. "Armed" for spiritual warfare and naked as a child, at the same time. Sword of truth, etc.... all terribly Biblical.

~Susan

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 May 04 - 02:57 PM

snd my swords are two-edged and sharp. Though again, they are mine and not God's...

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: Megan L
Date: 30 May 04 - 02:54 PM

407 :) and no Im not such a loser that I sat counting them

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 May 04 - 02:48 PM

yes, but, not being God, I cannot turn my tongue into a sword...

The quote from John does not seem applicable.

"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?"

Twelve legions of angels? sounds like real overkill, to replace one sword...

I am as entitled to select the quotes that support my point as anyone. But there are a lot of swords in there, aren't there...

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: Strick
Date: 30 May 04 - 02:33 PM

Or the real truth is more like this:

Matthew 26:49-54
Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him. Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for." Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"

Isaiah 49:1-3
Listen to me, you islands;
hear this, you distant nations:
Before I was born the LORD called me;
from my birth he has made mention of my name.

He made my mouth like a sharpened sword,
in the shadow of his hand he hid me;
he made me into a polished arrow
and concealed me in his quiver.

He said to me, "You are my servant,
Israel, in whom I will display my splendor."

John 1:1a & 14
In the beginning was the Word...The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

Revelation 19:15
Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations...

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: Megan L
Date: 30 May 04 - 01:53 PM

Your sword should also be two edged and sharp


Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-­edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: Amos
Date: 30 May 04 - 09:58 AM

Ahhh!! Comes the light.


A

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 May 04 - 11:04 PM

coreg, zocor, prinivil, spironolacetone, aspirin, and a wide variety of herbs and vitimins....

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 May 04 - 10:52 PM

beardedbruce,

I'm currently on Levapro - could you tell me what you are on? I think I want some... :-)

Robin

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 May 04 - 07:42 PM

The last entry does not make sense to me: Care to explain what you mean?

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: DonD
Date: 29 May 04 - 07:30 PM

The King Kong of Peace?

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 May 04 - 06:41 PM

still looking... Have you found anything?

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: Blackcatter
Date: 29 May 04 - 06:36 PM

Anything that tells you what to do with said sword Bruce?

Subject: RE: God wants armed nudests
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 May 04 - 06:32 PM

thread is drifting- let us get back to religion.

More of Matthew 10:

34: Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35: For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36: And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37: He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Family values.... ( and the sword)