BS: Spirituality

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 18 Jul 04 - 01:37 AM

Having fun Little Hawk? ...snicker...;^)

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 10:41 PM

I hadn't seen the other thread. I see I have stumbled into an ongoing disagreement. Carry on, guys.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 10:08 PM

He has Gemini rising - the sign of the Twins, of duality. Isn't it obvious? Just breathe deep and ponder his handle ...

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 10:05 PM

I don't think that Thomas the Rhymer needs defending but I surmise, Sinsul, that you haven't read some of the Two_Bears other posts- I know TtR has. The persona that TBear assumes in those other posts is as different from this one as day from night, love from contempt, insight from blindness. IMO

Ebbie:

I made statements, and people did not take the time to read and attempt to understand where I was coming from. People simply flew off the handle and reacted, and ASSUMED I was speaking about ALL Iraqi people. I reached those conclusions AFTER reading BOTH sides of the debate, and viewing the satellite images.

Ebbie: I am a simple person, and I speak plainly. I do not waste time to use flowery but meaningless words.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 08:54 PM

I don't think that Thomas the Rhymer needs defending but I surmise, Sinsul, that you haven't read some of the Two_Bears other posts- I know TtR has. The persona that TBear assumes in those other posts is as different from this one as day from night, love from contempt, insight from blindness. IMO

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 08:52 PM

May the path you take lead you to goodness.

Thank you Thomas.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 08:43 PM

May the path you take lead you to goodness.
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 08:25 PM

I too have an utter contempt for people who claim to have a hotline to god. I was raised Roman Catholic and from the age of 9 questioned the concept that only priests and only men had that right or ability. Two Bears hasn't made that claim as far as I can see. He has said that he trained to learn how to channel energy and that any of us can achieve the same. If anyone is interested, he has offered his help as he was offered help when he needed it.

Sinsull; you read my posts correctly.

Each and everyone of us have guidance and help if we work with the higher powers.

The "Christians" call this link to the divine "Guardian angels", the American Indians call them "Totem animals or spirit helpers", The Occultists called them the Holy Guardian angel, The Jewish Kabbalists called them Neshamah, The Hawai'ians called them the 'Aumakua, etc.

All one needs to do; is do the inner work to bring the subconscious and conscious mind together in harmony; so these spirit powers may work through us.

I am NOT saying the Hawai'ian way is the ONLY way, or even the BEST way. I am ONLY saying that this path really works (if one is willing to apply the spiritual technology).

Eastern philosophy and spirituality GREATLY halped me turn my life around; but it was ONLY HUNA that helped me bring my subconscious and conscious minds together in harmony, and clear the mental complexes and fixations that was severely draining my lifeforce. Then I could begin to witness these things happen.

ALN - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 07:47 PM

I do not see arrogance or ego or a need to "toot one's own horn" and except for you no one else seems to either. Wolfgang has challenged Two Bears' statements but hasn't resorted to name calling. For someone who is not angry, you are doing a pretty good job of feigning anger.

Why for instance do you insist on mispelling his name?

I too have an utter contempt for people who claim to have a hotline to god. I was raised Roman Catholic and from the age of 9 questioned the concept that only priests and only men had that right or ability. Two Bears hasn't made that claim as far as I can see. He has said that he trained to learn how to channel energy and that any of us can achieve the same. If anyone is interested, he has offered his help as he was offered help when he needed it.

Maybe I need to rephrase my question: Why are you so vehement in questioning Two Bears' abilities and motives?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 04:07 PM

Sinsull... If you are reading humility in Twa Bears posts, you are seeing something there that I just don't. The last couple are a good start...

I'm not angry.
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 02:13 PM

I have read through all the posts in this thread and have to wonder where all this anger is coming from, Thomas? Two bears has shown nothing but humility. He has offered to help anyone who wishes his help and accepts your skepticism. How is it that you alone find him arrogant? Think about it.

A couple of years back I posted on Mudcat about some disturbing "talents" I had that I also had no control over. I was met with ridicule. Why is it so hard to for some of us to handle phenomena that for the moment we don't have the science to explain? No one is asking you to believe or even accept. Why so angry?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 01:43 PM

I had an experience similar to Hesperis' in that I also reshaped my body...in a very unaware fashion. I developed the habit of carrying stuff (schoolbooks, mostly) slung against my left hip when I was in my early teens, and did it right through to the end of my schooling. The result? A formerly quite symmetrical body got reshaped into one with pronounced scoliosis (curvature of the spine), a shorter right leg (by about 1/4 inch), and accompanying misalignment of hip bones, shoulders, neck, etc....all of which have since caused me to get quite a bit of muscle tension and weakness on the left side of my back muscles. I am slowly working on retraining and balancing this body that I unwittingly sculpted out of shape when I was young and growing. It can be retrained, but it takes time and diligence.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 01:31 PM

Looks like we crossposted, Two Bears. I'm not in Orillia now. I'm in Alabama. I'll have a look at your stuff and get back to you. Thanks.

Carol:

Sorry; but I thougt you were still in Orillia.

I live just up the road in Tennessee. Perhaps; one day; we can meet.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 01:26 PM

Looks like we crossposted, Two Bears. I'm not in Orillia now. I'm in Alabama. I'll have a look at your stuff and get back to you. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 01:24 PM

Thanks LH and hesperis.

Interesting answer, Two Bears. Interesting, also, is the way I got the deformities in the bones of my neck. It was from climbing up on our piano and falling off of it, landing on my head, when I was between the ages of one and two years old.. And I didn't just do it once. According to my mother, I just kept doing it over and over and over. Talk about determination, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 01:21 PM

LH, most of the energy work I've had done has had short-term beneficial results, but it hasn't been possible to get long term results because I have some deformed bones in my neck causing a misalignment of my neck which in turn, causes one of the

Aloha nui loa Carol:

I will be in Canada next week. Perhaps you could come over when I am there. I will let Daylia and LH work out the details.

If you are unable to meet me when I am there; I would be happy to help however I can via distance. Just PM or E-Mail me.

I teach the basics of HUNA free of charge on my website. HUNA On my website; it has a link to send me an E-Mail, and my E-mail address that you may copy into your mail program.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 01:13 PM

Look... Your posts are seething with an almost vulgar need to toot your own horn... and then you childishly claim that 'you don't care' what others think. I've met a lot of pretenders to spirituallity... and these are some of the most blatent signs. So... big deal... you have work to do, just like the rest of us.

Hello Thomas.

1. The name is Two Bears. it speaks volumes about you; that you do not have the simple courtesy to spell my name correctly

2. How have I been vulgar?

3. How is it tooting my own horn to wake people up and teach them they could do the very same thing only if they are willing to apply themself?

4. Of course I still have work to do. I never said that I did not have work to do; and you did not ask.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 01:01 PM

Can HUNA change the way bones are shaped?

Aloha Carol; my sister.

The short answer is yes; but.

The long answer is because it would require the use of spiritual lifeforce energy (mana loa), the higher powers willingness to help, and it would require the person's subconscious mind (unihipili) willingness to be healed.

The higher powers could easly heal people against their will; but they do not; because they will not violate a person's free will to be sick.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: hesperis
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 12:58 PM

I dunno, goldfish can be slippery. *grin*

Anyway, when I was 12, I started learning guitar. I also had a growth spurt at that time, and ended up with certain body adjustments that make it easier to play guitar. I don't play guitar anymore and the body adjustments that happened sometimes get in the way of doing other things.

My left shoulder bone is slightly smaller than the right one, giving me much less flexibility there. The fingers of my left hand are larger than the right, because I was stretching to hit notes that I otherwise wouldn't have been able to hit, and I can stretch them even farther. The right side of my torso is slightly elongated compared to the left, this happened to make it easier to curve my body over the body of an acoustic guitar.

My left shoulder often hurts and gets tense and has "crack" sounds when I relieve the tension. It is always in more pain and tension than the right shoulder is.

If the body can shape itself in a growth spurt in order to fit a guitar better, rather than from any genetic prompting, then life energy can definitely shape bones.

I only lately realized that the WAY in which I wasn't symmetrical was caused by that growth spurt and facilitated playing guitar. I was very symmetrical before that.

It would probably take a lot of life energy to reshape an adult bone since it took a growth spurt to reshape me.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 12:49 PM

Our perceptions are influenced by our beliefs and fears. What appears offensive to one person is not so to another. Strong reactions indicate strong opinions, but they do not necessarily have any connection or relation to the person being reacted to.

I agree completely.

As we are civilized by our parents or guardians, authority figures, and other friends; young children do not want to be thought of as weird by talking of real experiences they have or had, then after time passes; they accept the idea that those experiences were fignents of an overactive imagination, then their unihipili (sub conscious mind) begins building a set of walls that limit the type of material that will be passed through to the Uhane (conscious mind), and people are litterally inside a box.

I just want to help people tear down those walls, so they can reclaim the powerful spiritual being they were intened to be.

Two bears has made it clear that he is not a guru, that he faciltates a process, and he does not charge money. So he does not have to be perfect. I am more suspicious of people who project as "holy" and saintly. They can be very manipulative.

Freda: Thank you for the kind words.

I am neither a guru, a saint, or holy. I am simply a human being who is doing the best he can one day at a time.

If I am a holy person; then God must be scraping the bottom of the barrel.

In my youth; I was horribly physically and mentally abused by my guardians. They were devout Baptists, and it was like this child from another planet was placed in their care. They thought ALL mystical, psychic, etc gifts were Satanic, and they did their best to beat Satan out of me. 40 years later; I still have several knots and scars on my body where I was burned with cigarettes, peaten with broom handles, iron pokers, and anything else they could get their hands on.

Their worldview, and religious indoctrination had forced them to perceive such gifts were EVIL, and I suffered because of their indoctrination.

From the abuse I received at home, the abuse and torture I received at school because I was weird; I became a walking/talking nightmare. When I was only 10 years old the school dictated that I learn martial arts "So that young man can learn some self control and self discipline. All the martial arts did was turn an SOB into a dangerous SOB. I left three of my school teachers, and hundreds of classmates lying in the floor. I became the 11th commandment "Thou shalt not get away with it. In my youth; I came close to killing people.

When I was 18 and in college; I took a course Taoist meditation. A few weeks later; Tsang (my meditation teacher) saw the grumpy old Bear side of my nature just about take a classmate apart.

Tsang took me to his home where we had a 90 minute chat about my anger, hostility, bad attitudem etc and he did all of the talking. At the end of the chat; he decided yo break his oath, and teach an American (Qigong) instead of doing nothing and watching me destroy myself.

When Tsang started talking about ch'i the all pervading energy in the universe; I thought he was the biggest crachpot ever to walk the earth, then when he started talking about the more esoteric subjects such as directing the energy to punch a hole in a cloud, influence the weather for a wind to come up, influence the movement of wild animals, etc, I could not stand it any more, and I asked him to prove it. BELIEVE ME; HE PROVED IT!.

31 years ago; if Tsang were to tell me that I would be doing what I am doing now; I would have asked where I could buy some of whatever he was smoking!

Well two years after I began energy work; I reached the realization that every day; I was gives a choice (how I would affect the world around me) to either be a positive or a negative influence. I began consciously choosing to be a positive influence, and I am no longer the miserable excuse for a human being; that I used to be.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 12:47 PM

Your hysteria predated any input from me, 'Twa Bears'... ;^)

Look... Your posts are seething with an almost vulgar need to toot your own horn... and then you childishly claim that 'you don't care' what others think. I've met a lot of pretenders to spirituallity... and these are some of the most blatent signs. So... big deal... you have work to do, just like the rest of us.

BTW... I am no expert in these matters... but in my personal experience, the only people who have asserted that there is no such thing as negative energy, have been those that are oblivious to their own use of it.

I am glad that you are able to heal others, Twa Bears... and I wish you all the best in doing so. Please do not forget to do your own personal healing too... And do not forget, that someone out there may be able to heal you, and make you a better, more enlightened being.
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 12:30 PM

Yes, I see, Carol. Well, I don't doubt that there are ways to heal that, but I can't promise you anything on it. We shall see.

Thomas - Two Bears is about as dangerous as a goldfish. Thanks anyway, for giving me a real good chuckle this morning. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 12:23 PM

LH, most of the energy work I've had done has had short-term beneficial results, but it hasn't been possible to get long term results because I have some deformed bones in my neck causing a misalignment of my neck which in turn, causes one of the discs in my neck to protrude, pressing on my spinal cord. This causes a disruption in the energy flow from my head to the rest of my body.

This energy disruption causes a lot of problems for me physically, as well as making me easily overloaded with energy. I believe you've seen it happen. Remember the time when I was up in Orillia and you and hesp had come over for dinner and we did a little bit of hesp's kind of dancing? Remember how I suddenly got dizzy and had to sit down with my head down between my knees? This problem has also sometimes caused me to experience bad results when people have attempted to do energy work on me. For instance, making me vomit or become very, very dizzy.

So it would seem that in my case, in order to get lasting results from any sort of energy work, I'll need to address the problem of the misshapen bones. In the meantime, I do have someone who does energy work on me as needed to help to offset some of the problems created by the energy blockage in my neck, but it's always short-term help.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 12:12 PM

What I find so offensive in some of this thread, is the use of 'tricks' to substatiate an individdle's 'in touchness' with superior powers. Any notion of personal superiority will not eminate from the personality of a Shaman... Arrogance and egotistic posturing are physical manifestations of dark energy and psychic poverty... definitely not from higher stages of enlightenment.

But what is most disturbing of all, is the psychopathic's tendency to try to use this self aggrandizing prattle to menacing ends. Yikes! It is so obvious!

TTR:

You are so far off base that is is hysterical.

I am not tricking ANYONE. All I am doing; is trying to help raise the blinders on people (put there by the church, and accepted scientific theory)

I am neither arrogant or egotistical. I am NOTHING special. Almost Anyone could do the same thing if they opened their mind and heart and applied this spiritual technology.

There is no such thing as dark energy. Energy is simply energy. How the person chooses to apply the energy is what makes it white or dark. Electricity flowing in the walls of your house can take life , or when used properly; in the medical profession; speed up the healing of bones. The same ax can be used to chop wood or kill someone, ad nauseum.

How am I being self aggrandizing? I have a regular job to pay the bills, I do healings free, I do charge for workshops; but to cover the cost of transportation, food and lodging.

How is that self aggrandizement? I am just trying to teach people how special they really are, and how to tap into this lifeforce energy to improve their phusical, mental, emotional, and spiritual lives.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 12:06 PM

I'm in Ontario, Canada, Bengi. Where are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 12:05 PM

Can HUNA change the way bones are shaped? Hmm. Interesting question. My guess is that yes, it can, providing a large enough measure of Chi was directed at the area. I said that's my GUESS. I am merely theorizing about it. Nothing that we think of as solid is in fact solid at the subatomic level, but it appears solid to our sense perceptions. Therefore I suspect that subtle energy can be used to alter solid matter, including bones, by altering the energy patters which that apparently solid matter is made out of. It would require knowing how to manage that subtle energy in a focused enough way, that's all. Very few people have mastered such expertise, but I suspect such things have been done from time to time.

Why do you ask, Carol?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 11:52 AM

Well the storm weakened to a category 2 storm within 24 hours after we started working on it. (Two Bears)

Post hoc ergo propter hoc? Unconvincing for many reasons.

Wolfgang: it is notpost hoc ergo propter hoc.

After you see things like this happen repeatedly; you lose doubt and know there is something to the direction of this energy.

Two Bears, you are the one who claims that some things you report are unexplainable by today's science. That means you claim to have

By todays accepted science? ABSOLUTELY NOT EXPLAINABLE!

The theory of quantum mechanics (when it becomes accepted) will explain this type of phenomena. Methinks you should read Dr. Stephen Hawking, Dr. Michio Kaku, et all. I would HIGHLY recommend you start with the book "Hyperspace" by Dr. Kaku then go from there.

I still have the impression you claim a knowledge upon that field which you do not have, My guess is that you use the word 'unexplainable' just for impression management and not as the end result of serious study. I wouldn't mind at all you saying you

Then; let's agree to disagree.

Apparently I will never convince you, and I know that you will NEVER convince me to deny the things that I have seen happen with my own eyes.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 11:33 AM

(pronounced 'chee'). Proponents of TCM believe qi flows through the body through a system of 12 meridians (or channels) that connect to different organs in the body...

Daylia; my sister. There are 12 PRIMARY meridians, that supply ch'i to the organs. Heart, spleen, stomach, liver, etc. But there are hundreds of smaller meridians that transfer ch'i to the rest of the physical body.

In order to restore balance and health, doctors of TCM (as they will now be called in B.C.) employ a number of methods, including acupuncture, herbal medicine, Qigong, Tui Na and exercise therapy such as Tai Ji. TCM is purported to relieve a multitude of ailments, including chronic fatigue, arthritis, PMS, high blood pressure, bronchitis, acne...the list is considerable...

I have no disagreement with any of this material.

Oppel heads the Alternative Therapy Evaluation Committee, a free-standing evaluative body, and is also president of Canadians for Rational Health Policy, a group whose aim is to ensure that health policies are developed based on reliable scientific evidence. His qualms with so-called 'alternative' therapies like TCM stem from the lack of scientific evidence supporting their claims.

I wish to add two cents here.

1. In my opinion; anyone with medical problems should go to a medical doctor for diagnosis and medication, but after they do that there is nothing wrong with adding alternative healing modalities to speed up the process of healing.

2. If an alternative healing practitioner tells you to throw the medication away; RUN don't walk, and report them to the authorities.

About acupuncture - My life-long friend Mike ran a concrete business for years. Working concrete is very hard on the back. Last year he developed a sciactic nerve problem that was so bad he barely walk and couldn't even straighten his back. He looked like an old man, all hunched over in constant pain - and he's only 42. The doctors had him on so many drugs he couldn't see or think straight, and he was still in constant pain.

They could do little else for him - except recommend acupuncture. He took a couple treatments, and there was an improvement but he was still in constant pain.

Now Mike was never interested in anything "spiritual" and always teased me to no end about my interest in natural healing and energy work. But that pain was so bad last Christmas he finally called me in desperation and asked me to work on his back with HUNA.

So I called Two Bears and we both worked on him. I used HUNA to send him energy every day for about a week. He felt enough of an improvement within a day or two to stop taking the drugs, which was a good thing! I recommended that he continue with the acupuncture treatments to speed up the clearing of blocked energy from his nervous system, which he did. After two more treatments, the pain was gone. Absolutely gone! Mike was one happy camper, believe me. He will never doubt again the effectiveness of either HUNA or acupuncture.

Mike doesn't work concrete full-time anymore, but a friend twisted his arm a month ago to pour a basement as a weekend job. Mike couldn't turn down the money he was offered, and did the job - and came home with that sciactic nerve problem flaring up again. He suffered all weekend, finally called me on the Monday asking for help again. I worked on him with HUNA (at a distance), and he saw his acupuncturist the next day for a treatment.

The pain was gone by Tues night. I was over there the next morning, watching him chop wood, so happy for my friend!

Daylia: Thank you for reporting this incident.

WHen Western medicine finally catches up with the practical knowledge that's been around for thousands of years in Eastern cultures, that will be a VERY good thing!

Actually; the knowledge of thus subtle lifeforce energy was known all over the world.

Here are some of the assorted names used for it by assorted cultures.

akasha (Edgar Cayce), animal magnetism (Frank Anton Mesmer),ch'i or qi (China), chiah (Jewish Kabbalists), itaki (Pueblo Indians), ki (Japan), mana (Hawai'ians), manitou (Osage Indians), nuwati (Cherokee Indians), orenda (Seneca Indians), orgone (Wilhelm Reich), prana (India and Tibet), etc.

I just wanted the readers to understand the understanding and manipulation of lifeforce energy is not just something from the East.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 11:30 AM

Can HUNA change the way bones are shaped?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: freda underhill
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 10:37 AM

Our perceptions are influenced by our beliefs and fears. What appears offensive to one person is not so to another. Strong reactions indicate strong opinions, but they do not necessarily have any connection or relation to the person being reacted to.

That's why juries are told never to follow their "hunches" or gut instinct. Because those hunches are often emotional reactions and biases. None of us knows how shaman "should" behave (how many of us have met one?) - people have different attributes. Two bears has made it clear that he is not a guru, that he faciltates a process, and he does not charge money. So he does not have to be perfect. I am more suspicious of people who project as "holy" and saintly. They can be very manipulative.

who can cast a stone?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 10:16 AM

Sure, unexplainable phenomena happen all the time... and western science is always playing catch up... It is relatively new to the human condition, especially when compared to traditional Chinese anythings...

We all have a lot to learn.

What I find so offensive in some of this thread, is the use of 'tricks' to substatiate an individdle's 'in touchness' with superior powers. Any notion of personal superiority will not eminate from the personality of a Shaman... Arrogance and egotistic posturing are physical manifestations of dark energy and psychic poverty... definitely not from higher stages of enlightenment.

But what is most disturbing of all, is the psychopathic's tendency to try to use this self aggrandizing prattle to menacing ends. Yikes! It is so obvious!
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 09:20 AM

And so can he, Wolfgang - especially when he's been culturally conditioned from first grade onwards to discount anything that Western science has yet to "prove".

Why are you so eager to support any explanation other than an "Eastern" or (heaven forbid!) a "spiritual" one? Especially when, by your own accounts, you have no knowledge or practical first-hand experience with either?

Please don't get me wrong - I have no personal interest in your opinions or your reasons for them. I just think it may benefit you to ponder my question, and I do enjoy helping others.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 08:55 AM

Well the storm weakened to a category 2 storm within 24 hours after we started working on it. (Two Bears)

Post hoc ergo propter hoc? Unconvincing for many reasons.

I defy you to define that by current science. (Two Bears)

Two Bears, you are the one who claims that some things you report are unexplainable by today's science. That means you claim to have checked all possible explanations and found all of them wanting. So you could tell us which explanations you have checked by which methods and by which way you have convinced yourself that none of the many possible normal explanations doesn't fit.

I still have the impression you claim a knowledge upon that field which you do not have, My guess is that you use the word 'unexplainable' just for impression management and not as the end result of serious study. I wouldn't mind at all you saying you have witnessed something you do explain to yourself by the concept of Chi, but your use of the word 'unexplainable' is overbearing. You don't seem to have a clue what alternative explanations are possible.

I could list some explanations but to do so from afar has a big disadvantage: The probability to be far off is quite high. My experience is that quite often effects as they are reported are indeed unexplainable by today's science, but the effects as they have actually happened are often explainable. She who reports an effect with a certain frame of mind or prejudice can unwillingly distort the report according to her theoretical expectations.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: bengi
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 08:36 AM

Early, where in the world are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 08:27 AM

That's "Delia". You an early riser, Bengi?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: bengi
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 08:25 AM

Why do we keep thinking of that Johnny Cash song?

First time I shot her I shot her in the side
Hard to watch her suffer
But with the second shot she died
daylia's gone, one more round daylia's gone

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 08:21 AM

Bengi - I don't know. I haven't seen the sketches. If it's a dashingly handsome guy who bears a strong resemblance to Bob Dylan in the late 70's (circa Street-Legal), then it could be me.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 07:58 AM

This is an interesting article about Traditional Chinese Medicine, chi and the regulation of therapies like acupuncture in BC, Canada.

here's a quote - Traditional Chinese medicine and modern, science-based medicine are diametrically opposed when it comes to their platforms of investigation. Science-based medicine is based on knowledge (acquired through the scientific method) about physiology and the body's response to external factors, such as viruses or bacteria.

Conversely, traditional Chinese medicine follows the belief that every living thing contains a life-force called qi (pronounced 'chee'). Proponents of TCM believe qi flows through the body through a system of 12 meridians (or channels) that connect to different organs in the body...

In order to restore balance and health, doctors of TCM (as they will now be called in B.C.) employ a number of methods, including acupuncture, herbal medicine, Qigong, Tui Na and exercise therapy such as Tai Ji. TCM is purported to relieve a multitude of ailments, including chronic fatigue, arthritis, PMS, high blood pressure, bronchitis, acne...the list is considerable...

Oppel heads the Alternative Therapy Evaluation Committee, a free-standing evaluative body, and is also president of Canadians for Rational Health Policy, a group whose aim is to ensure that health policies are developed based on reliable scientific evidence. His qualms with so-called 'alternative' therapies like TCM stem from the lack of scientific evidence supporting their claims.

With any therapy, there's always going to be some effect on people's perception of their illness," he says, "but in terms of whether or not things are actually getting better from a biological point of view, that remains to be demonstrated."

Although I certainly understand the need for scientific methods of investigation and gov't regulation of traditional therapies like acupuncture, I highly suspect that part of Oppel's problem with alternative therapies is simply the racism that's been part of BC's history for well over a century.

I lived on Vancouver Island for the good part of a year, and sadly enough I witnessed that racism many, many times - even among my own family. :-( There is an ever-growing multitude of "Asian-Canadians" on the West Coast, and unfortunately they are still highly resented for taking precious jobs and business away from the whites, as they have been since the late 1800's.

About acupuncture - My life-long friend Mike ran a concrete business for years. Working concrete is very hard on the back. Last year he developed a sciactic nerve problem that was so bad he barely walk and couldn't even straighten his back. He looked like an old man, all hunched over in constant pain - and he's only 42. The doctors had him on so many drugs he couldn't see or think straight, and he was still in constant pain.

They could do little else for him - except recommend acupuncture. He took a couple treatments, and there was an improvement but he was still in constant pain.

Now Mike was never interested in anything "spiritual" and always teased me to no end about my interest in natural healing and energy work. But that pain was so bad last Christmas he finally called me in desperation and asked me to work on his back with HUNA.

So I called Two Bears and we both worked on him. I used HUNA to send him energy every day for about a week. He felt enough of an improvement within a day or two to stop taking the drugs, which was a good thing! I recommended that he continue with the acupuncture treatments to speed up the clearing of blocked energy from his nervous system, which he did. After two more treatments, the pain was gone. Absolutely gone! Mike was one happy camper, believe me. He will never doubt again the effectiveness of either HUNA or acupuncture.

Mike doesn't work concrete full-time anymore, but a friend twisted his arm a month ago to pour a basement as a weekend job. Mike couldn't turn down the money he was offered, and did the job - and came home with that sciactic nerve problem flaring up again. He suffered all weekend, finally called me on the Monday asking for help again. I worked on him with HUNA (at a distance), and he saw his acupuncturist the next day for a treatment.

The pain was gone by Tues night. I was over there the next morning, watching him chop wood, so happy for my friend!

Now, I suppose people like Oppel would discount Mike's experience. After all, they'd have to dissect his spinal cord before and after the treatments in order to "prove" scientifically that any kind of change had occurred - and that would certainly make him a paraplegic. They couldn't possibly just take Mike's word for it - his subjective experiences with his pain, the acupuncture and HUNA don't meet the rigid criteria of scientific investigation. While it's understandable from a scientific point of view, in real life this just seems so ridiculous!

Now Mike doesn't care one way or the other what scientists think - he just knows that HUNA and acupuncture did for him what the best of Western medicine could not. HUNA and acupuncture - plus a change of occupation - cured that sciactic nerve and relieved him of that horrible debilitating pain. He's back to his old self - off the heavy drugs, boating and hunting and chopping wood and gardening - without a twinge of pain in his back. He looks about 20 years younger than he did last Christmas.

WHen Western medicine finally catches up with the practical knowledge that's been around for thousands of years in Eastern cultures, that will be a VERY good thing!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: bengi
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 12:25 AM

A guy said to Samuel Johnson, "Dr. Johnson, you smell!"

Johnson replied, "Incorrect, Sir, you smell me, and I stink!"

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: bengi
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 12:16 AM

Little Hawk, did you pose for those sketches on the skeptical page link that the honourable Guest posted about China, Chi, and Chicanery.

Are you the one banging your head or the one Chiing your hotdog?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 11:38 PM

Big hot yellow thing in the sky today, and I don't care for it.

--LR Mole

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 10:01 PM

Well, that is certainly an intriguing quote...

Regarding belief and accomplishment...there are generally several things required in order to do something difficult.

1. Have the intention to do it.
2. Learn the technique through practice and discipline over a period of time. You start with easier stuff, move toward harder stuff.
3. Be in good enough health so that you have enough strength and energy available to do it.
4. Focus the mind properly on the task.
5. Believe...no, don't just believe, but KNOW you can do it.

Just belief alone is not enough. That's why it takes years of training and hard work to be a good martial artist, and why very few people can break a cement block with their bare hands. A few people can do it. They didn't get there just by believing they could, but belief is a important part of it.

It isn't a technique I have any facility in, because I have never practiced such a technique or aspired toward it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: bengi
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 09:44 PM

He that will enjoy the brightness of sunshine, must quit the coolness of the shade. - Samuel Johnson

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 07:07 PM

I've done the cloud thing too...but I didn't punch holes in them, I made them gradually vanish (over a period of say, a minute or two). I did it with smaller clouds, because I didn't have enough confidence to take on the big ones, so I just made little clouds vanish. This was way back in the late 70's. It takes focus and concentration. Anyone who's got those, plus a little confidence, can do it. Most people don't imagine they can do it, so they don't try it...or if they do (at someone's suggestion) they don't try it with any confidence whatsoever...and accordingly the results match their expectations...perfectly. Nothing happens. :-) It kind of works that way with most things in life.

I agree completely LH; my brother.

There are some of us that mess with the really BIG clouds.

Does anyone remember Hericane Lili that was a category 4 hurricane, and the weather experts were expecting Lili to go up to a category 5 storm when it was over the warm water in the gulf of mexico. Well the storm weakened to a category 2 storm within 24 hours after we started working on it. Before Lili reached land; it was downgraded to a tropical storm. That is a fact of history.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 06:11 PM

An appropriate request....

A

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 06:08 PM

But only if I believe it will ... where's Dumbo's feather when you need it ...

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 05:59 PM

USe the Force, TBPL. Use the Force. All will become clear to you!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 05:21 PM

Ker-ist. I just don't under stand it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 04:58 PM

You don't need to be interested in spirituality at all to work with physical or mental chi. I've yet to meet a sensei (master/teacher of martial arts like Karate) who qualifies for sainthood. Physical and mental life-force energy or chi is the driving force behind accomplishments like chopping a cement block in half with one blow from a bare hand.

Martial artists generate a surcharge of physical life-force energy first (through exercise), then direct that energy toward their goal using simply will and intent. All that's required to chop a cement block in half with your bare hand is a reasonably healthy physique and a highly trained, disciplined and focused mind. Plus the willingness to work with an invisible force like life-force energy, of course.

Ker-ist. I just can't stand it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: skarpi
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 04:33 PM

Halló all, I wanna say this , love him ,prey for him and most of all
things stay on to be his best friend, be there for him.
All the best Skarpi Iceland.