BS: Spirituality

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 04:06 PM

Because I have no deep knowledge of Chi and other theoretical concepts in the realm of spirituality ...

Life force energy is not a "concept in the realm of spirituality". It is a very real and physical force, just like gravity - which is also invisible but very real. It's what makes you and I and trees and bears different than rocks, Wolfgang.

You don't need to be interested in spirituality at all to work with physical or mental chi. I've yet to meet a sensei (master/teacher of martial arts like Karate) who qualifies for sainthood. Physical and mental life-force energy or chi is the driving force behind accomplishments like chopping a cement block in half with one blow from a bare hand.

Martial artists generate a surcharge of physical life-force energy first (through exercise), then direct that energy toward their goal using simply will and intent. All that's required to chop a cement block in half with your bare hand is a reasonably healthy physique and a highly trained, disciplined and focused mind. Plus the willingness to work with an invisible force like life-force energy, of course.

But in order to work with spiritual life-force energy - which is infinitely more powerful than the physical or mental "voltages" - one is required to work on personal spiritual development, not just physical or mental.

I never would even try to correct you or Two Bears or whoever when you speak about Chi. I never would make a statement like 'Chi cannot explain...' because I do not know enough

Well good for you, Wolfgang! I do know that science has yet to produce the methods or technology necessary for studying life-force energy of any "voltage" level - physical, mental or spiritual. If such a technology had been developed and approved by scientific community, we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we?

Our kids would be teaching us about it.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 03:21 PM

I've done the cloud thing too...but I didn't punch holes in them, I made them gradually vanish (over a period of say, a minute or two). I did it with smaller clouds, because I didn't have enough confidence to take on the big ones, so I just made little clouds vanish. This was way back in the late 70's. It takes focus and concentration. Anyone who's got those, plus a little confidence, can do it. Most people don't imagine they can do it, so they don't try it...or if they do (at someone's suggestion) they don't try it with any confidence whatsoever...and accordingly the results match their expectations...perfectly. Nothing happens. :-) It kind of works that way with most things in life.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 01:42 PM

Do I see hubris here? Daylia, I may do you wrong, but your contributions didn't give me the impression you have a deep knowledge of science. So if you see something for which you do not find a natural explanation how do you come to the conclusion that there is no scientific explanation instead of saying that you know of none? And even if you know that there is no scientific explanation yet what makes you state that what you have seen is 'unexplainable' (instead of merely 'yet unexplained')?

Daylia was referring to myself doing healings for her (from 2000 miles away), and my teaching her how to do energy work to punch a hole in a cloud three miles away. I defy science to explain punching a hole in a cloud, or remote healing.

I have been doing energy work for more than 30 years, and have a folder FULL of testimonials of remote healing, passing distance Reiki attunements, etc.

What part of the country do you live in? If you are nearby; (I live in Tennessee) you are welcome to come over and see my assorted certificates, and read some of those testimonials.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 01:33 PM

Chi is chinese for bullshit.

If you want to believe that; be my guest.

If you're sick, see a doctor.

Absolutely!

Prayers, ginko biloba and chicken bones will do f*ck all to help.

Obviously; you do not understand prayer.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 01:26 PM

Samuel Johnson obviously never observed the birth of any of his offspring (if he had any).

Hear Hear! I could not agree more.

Aloha nui loa
2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 01:24 PM

Whether something is "unexplainable" or not depends on who is trying to explain it. :-) Ultimately, nothing is unexplainable.

I've seen things that I couldn't exactly explain...but that doesn't mean they are forever unexplainable, does it?

For instance, I can't exactly explain how those AFO's (alien flying objects) I saw in the late 60's manuevered the way they did...in a technical sense. I can't explain their technology, because I don't know anything about it. I'm sure they, however, can explain it just fine.

I've met people who can explain Chi just fine...and demonstrate how it works...in a manner that is physically perceivable through normal sense perceptions. The fact that there is a Guest here who is so ignorant of it that he can blithely state that it doesn't even exist means diddly-squat to me. He simply doesn't know anything about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 01:19 PM

I yet have to see one demonstration by a martial artist (in video or in reality) that is unexplainable by today's knowledge. A good start is the old book by Houdini, Miracle mongers and their methods, the last chapters about strongmen.

I have seen many things that are unexplainable by today's science happen under my hands.

1. I was at the laundry mat doing laundry, and I heard a lady (Tammy F.) scream outside. I went outside to ask her what was wrong. She said she had injured her hand at work two days before. Her index finger had been numb, and she had been unable to move her thumb for two days, and her doctor had reported that she HAD to have surgery to repair the tendons, muscles and nerves.

I picked up her laundry basket and carried it inside. After we got inside; I introduced myself as an energy healer, and offered to do a healing for her hand. She refused and said "I don't believe in any of that crap.". I said "if the energy does not help; it certainly will not hurt anything.". At this point she held her hand out. I did my deep breathing, then ggently held her hand between my hands, and I used the prayer picture of her using that hand to cut paper dolls for her daughter with a pair of scisors. About 30 seconds into the healing, she exclaimed "How do your hands get so hot?" I explained that it was the energy coming through me. About a minute into the healing' we both observed redness at the wrist, and began going up her arm. After sending energy into her hand for 3-4 minutes; I released her hand and asked how her hand felt. She moved her thumb gingerly and dropped her jaw in amazement. then she wiggled her thumb normaly and exclaimed "Damn! This is cool!" I defy you to define that by current science.

2. In 1980; I was diagnosed with a terminal disease, and was given 6-12 months to live. I went from riding a motorcycle to riding a wheelchair. I started directing this energy to my weakened back and legs. and 8 weeks later; I walked away from the wheelchair.

3. Last November I gave a HUNA workshop in Atlanta. Joy H (one of the attendees had injured her foot previously, and she appeared 70 years old. During one of the breaks; she asked me to do a healing on her foot. I did the deep breathing. and held her ankle. at first NOTHING happened. so I asked her what she enjoyed doing, and after a bit of coaxing; she smiled and said that she enjoyed dancing; so I changed the prayer picture from her walking pain free to dancing. After two or three minutes; there was a big smile on her face, and she said "Two Bears: I do not know what happened; but I felt something shift" Everyone saw Mrs. Hill Walk around the rest of the day pain free. After I finished teaching this spiritual technology; everyone received a healing. At the end of the day; Mrs. Hill appeared 20 years younger at the end of the day.

Both Daylia, and LH witnessed the incident with Mrs. Hill and more last November.

I can't take credit for the healings because I am NOT responsible for the healings. The higher powers, and the healee's subconscious (Unihipili) willing to receive a healing. The ONLY credit I can claim is gathering the energy and choosing a good prayer picture.

What I see there is a mixture of misdirection (make the onlooker overlook the vital details

That is your perception.

Aloha nui loa
2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 11:28 AM

Good artical, and it makes clear some of the problems when discussing chi. People who seek to impress can often embellish things and give whatever their subject is a bad reputation. A quote from the artical: "Chi theory states that the function of the human body is based on a system of energy that circulates throughout all other existing systems and integrates with them all. There is no evidence that such a system exists."

'A system of energy... other than 'all other existing systems' is sort of like saying 'a thing other than all things', and is just a tad bit...'duh'. It also demonstrates a fundemental flaw some dubunkers can have: they don't WANT to see, so they don't try to understand, only find flaws. I don't believe in magical explanations, so I look for the earthly ones. I try to look a bit sideways at things.

I see chi as neurological 'energy', both chemical and electric, and the brain (and mind) is the most important componenent. People used to scoff when someone said they could slow their heartbeat, because it was controlled by the limbic system and couldn't be consciously affected. Well we DO have some conscious control. We can slow our heartbeats and respiration, expand or constrict blood vessels, releive or tolerate pain, etc. No one can yet explain exactly WHY a conscious mind can do these things, what the mechanism is, but it happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 10:16 AM

Interesting article(sceptical) on chi here

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 09:02 AM

Daylia,

you try the 'you too' approach and fail to see the big difference between the two of us:

Because I have no deep knowledge of Chi and other theoretical concepts in the realm of spirituality I never would even try to correct you or Two Bears or whoever when you speak about Chi. I never would make a statement like 'Chi cannot explain...' because I do not know enough.

I just beg you to do the same if you do not know. My issue is with your 'unexplainable' for that is a much too bold claim.

However, if someone speaks about what she has seen or read or heard, it is not clear from the onset which could be a good explanation for that experience. It is not even clear whether there can be only one single explanation. So if someone claims that a certain experience requires the assumption that Chi has been at work, I do not need to know anything about Chi to state that another explanation works too. I only need to know about the other explanation.

Which of (perhaps many) alternative explanations for one experience is better that's a completely different thing and is a very subjective evaluation.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 08:32 AM

oops I see a couple problems with my last post that may invite attack from an on-site scientist or two, so I'll attempt to correct them now if I may ...

That included undergraduate level chemistry, biology, physics, analysis

To clarify, by "analysis" I meant analysis of scientific research data - (variables, statistics etc). Those were NOT my favorite courses, but I did learn it well enough to earn a bronze medal and the highest grade-point average of any part-time student at WLU to date. (Not to boast, just to let you know I'm not exactly a scientific slouch)

In fact, I get the impression that (like most Westerners) you've never witnessed, experienced or even experimented with it, and so know you know diddley-squat about it.

I meant I get the impression you've never witnessed, experienced or even experimented with generating and directing mana (Hawaiian for chi. That's what HUNA is all about - also Reiki, pranic healing, acupuncture etc. Mastering personal chi is the discipline, the "secret" behind all those seemingly miraculous physical feats accomplished by martial artists as well (Karate, Jiu Jitsu, Kung Fu). You certainly don't have to look too far to find hard physical evidence of the kinds of things martial artists can do - just visit your local dojo. There's one on every street corner these days.

Of course you've "experienced" life-force energy itself or you wouldn't be here, and no one would have the pleasure of knowing you at all!

Ok, all set? Lock and load ....   ;-)

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 07:54 AM

Well ok Wolfgang, I know of no scientific explanation for the plenty I've seen that's "unexplainable". I know just enough science to have earned an honours BA in psychology. That included undergraduate level chemistry, biology, physics, analysis - but Stephen Hawkings I ain't!

Now pardon me if I'm wrong, but your contributions don't give me the impression you have a deep knowledge of either spirituality or life-force energy. In fact, I get the impression that (like most Westerners) you've never witnessed, experienced or even experimented with it, and so know you know diddley-squat about it.

So, if you see hubris here, maybe there's a bit stuck in your eyelashes?   ;-)

daylia

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 07:18 AM

Well I've seen plenty that's "unexplainable" using today's scientific methods and technology. (daylia)

Do I see hubris here? Daylia, I may do you wrong, but your contributions didn't give me the impression you have a deep knowledge of science. So if you see something for which you do not find a natural explanation how do you come to the conclusion that there is no scientific explanation instead of saying that you know of none? And even if you know that there is no scientific explanation yet what makes you state that what you have seen is 'unexplainable' (instead of merely 'yet unexplained')?

Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth, and every other man has a right to knock him down for it. (Samuel Johnson) (Who is this Johnson guy?)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 04:26 AM

If you stop breathing you will die because your body needs oxygen in order to release energy to keep it working. If you stop drinking you will die because your body needs water for many of the processs that are vital to life. These processes are extremely well understood and therefor there is no need to use a vague concept like "chi" to explain why we need them.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 11:29 PM

Who???? Benji, whatever it is you're on you either need more or you need to stop NOW!

Anyway, does anyone seriously deny that a person needs vital energy in order to operate? Hmmm? That vital energy is simply called Chi in China, Ki in Japan, Prana in India, and a whole bunch of other things in other places. Duh!

How do you get vital energy? By breathing, eating wholesome food, and drinking water...and by some other more subtle methods. I can't help it if you folks are incapable of subtlety. :-)

This is not prosetylization, because it's not a religion. It's a study of the energetic system in living creatures. Matter of fact, it's a form of science that was known in Asia back when the Europeans were still giving each other the evil eye and burning "witches".

Now go sit in a corner, stop breathing and see how long your Chi lasts. Then tell me there's no such thing. Or don't drink water for a few days and see. Chi = vitality. Healthy practices build up Chi, unhealthy ones deplete it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 10:34 PM

Carnal Chi... I highly recommend it. (Never thought to put that kind of name to it though. I always called it 'energy sex'.)

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: bengi
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 10:33 PM

LH, you'd recommend him over your Doktor Hahnhund?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 09:55 PM

Chi is chinese for bullshit. If you're sick, see a doctor. Prayers, ginko biloba and chicken bones will do f*ck all to help.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 08:41 PM

LOL-- they called ME a proselytizer-- biggest buncha pontificators I've ever seen.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 08:37 PM

It all depends what you mean by "today's knowledge". When Wolfgang uses the phrase, it means one thing. When I use it, it means another. When Two Bears uses it, it might mean another.

There's a lot of knowledge out there, but people aren't all agreed on their interpretation of it.

They used to say "George has carnal knowledge of Mary", and it meant that he had had sex with Mary, therefore was aware of her in a physically intimate sense. It is my opinion that Wolfgang does not have carnal knowledge of Chi. Some people, however, do. (Chi being a form of vital energy.) Wolfgang HAS Chi, like everyone, but he is probably unaware of how to move it...or that it can be moved in order to heal another person, animal, or plant...or to heal oneself. That doesn't fit into his definition of "today's knowledge". It does fit into mine. It's totally obvious at this point.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 07:53 PM

real phenomena that we simply can't now, and perhaps never will, explain (Two Bears)

I haven't seen anything that's "unexplainable by today's knowledge" (Little Hawk)

Wolfgang (grin)


Well I've seen plenty that's "unexplainable" using today's scientific methods and technology. Science is not the same thing as knowledge though.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: freda underhill
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 07:43 PM

Jeri

I have the same numbness problem, right arm, right fingertips. I've found that a chinese product, ginko biloba (availabe in tablets or capsules from a chemist or health food shop) helps, as it works on circulation and gets blood to the far reaches of the bodý's universe. its also good for memory and brain function for the same reason.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 06:42 PM

Heh! I think Bengi oughta get some psychotherapy from Herr Liebenscheiss then. He's not ready to deal with the bears yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 05:51 PM

Bengi is an immature and confused person, LH, mired in the quandaries of body-identity and unsure of hsi own physicality at that. Tor emedy this deep and agonizing confusion and th epain it inflicts, he has fixrd on male members and their male members as an obsession in the hopes this will "answer" the confusion and make it go away. It is a case of the cure being worse than the condition, as well as doing no real curing.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 05:32 PM

Oh my. Now el ted is really going to be ticked...

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 04:39 PM

Being at No 100 is an experience but not very spiritual. Be Blessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: bengi
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 04:13 PM

Haven't you been advertising it as 100% meat?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 03:23 PM

What is this obsession with my hotdog?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 01:35 PM

All wonder is the effect of novelty on the ignorance. (Samuel Johnson)

--Wolfgang

Samuel Johnson obviously never observed the birth of any of his offspring (if he had any).

--CarolC

Just wondered how it looks to quote someone quoting someone quoting someone. I like it. (you can quote me) ;o)

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 01:29 PM

All wonder is the effect of novelty on the ignorance. (Samuel Johnson)

--Wolfgang

Samuel Johnson obviously never observed the birth of any of his offspring (if he had any).

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: bengi
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 10:58 AM

Make sure that the bear doesn't eat your hotdog.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 09:39 AM

Unfortunately, Toronto is about 10 hours away by car and I can't really afford flying. I believe Orilla would make the journey even longer.

I've been to neurologists who have agreed the spots on the brain are probably the reason for the numbness. I'm not so sure. I think the spots and the numbness may not be related. They were a coincidence that provided an explanation to the neurologists, who lacked any other evidence of possible causes. (This was what THEY said.) In any case, it hasn't gotten any wors and occasionally is a bit better. It does interfere with playing instruments a bit. (When you can't feel the holes on a pennywhistle or buttons on an accorion, it's a probalem.)

I once worked with a doctor who told me about an herbal headache preventative. While this doesn't fall into the realm of 'spirituality' it DOES involve trying something whose effectiveness (at that time) didn't have sufficient proof (only one study). It could have been labeled 'snake oil' by some. Why a doctor would recommend it, and I would try it:

1. Other patients of his had tried it, and it had worked.
2. There was information on its constituents which showed it wasn't harmful.
3. It didn't cost very much, so it wasn't financially harmful.

It worked, and I'm still taking it.

Since that time, its effectiveness has been proven and the reasons it works have been determined. The point is that, once upon a tine, people claimed it worked, there was no reason to believe it wasn't possible, and it did no harm. I don't count threatening someone's beliefs as 'harm'. Samuel Johnson's quote in Wolfgang's post might also be interpreted as "All wonder is the effect of finding something new." Same meaning/less cynicism.

With spiritual beliefs, I don't believe a person chooses these. They're conclusions based on what an individual thinks and feels. There's no way to prove one set of beliefs is right and another wrong, or we'd all believe the same things. When it comes to joining a group, religious or otherwise, one must look at whether they're likely to do more good than harm for the person doing the believing.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 09:25 AM

real phenomena that we simply can't now, and perhaps never will, explain (Two Bears)

I haven't seen anything that's "unexplainable by today's knowledge" (Little Hawk)

Wolfgang (grin)

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 08:58 AM

I haven't seen anything that's "unexplainable by today's knowledge" either, Wolfgang! I must be working from a different pool of knowledge, I guess...or maybe you are just not hanging out with the right martial artists...or both. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 08:27 AM

All wonder is the effect of novelty on the ignorance. (Samuel Johnson)

I yet have to see one demonstration by a martial artist (in video or in reality) that is unexplainable by today's knowledge. A good start is the old book by Houdini, Miracle mongers and their methods, the last chapters about strongmen.

What I see there is a mixture of misdirection (make the onlooker overlook the vital details), clever use of not well know physical laws, tricks, and a very admirable control of their bodies.

No question, without long training you are not able to repeat many of the demonstrations, for you'd lack the necessary control of the body, but what happens there is well within the known laws of physics and physiology. These demonstrations are very impressive at first. The few demonstrations which are physically impossible (we had a group of martial artists touring Germany and I have seen a picture by picture analysis of a video), are clever tricks using misdirection (catching a bullet shot on them through thin glass which cracks to make you think there was a bullet flying).

Admirable control of bodies yes, unexplicable phenomena, no.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 01:44 AM

I live in New Hampshire, Two bears.

Are you up for a trip to the Midhurst or Orilia area of Ontario, Canada?

If so; I will be flying (with the help of U.S. Airways) there in four days, and be there for a week.

The numbness doesn't really cause much of a problem. I can't always tell if I'm holding something small, like a piece of paper or a coin

Have you been to a specialist?

Aloha nui loa
2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 12:30 AM

I seldom eat hotdogs, Benji, and you wouldn't either if you knew what went into them. :-) Now go find that bear.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 08:28 PM

Close enough'll 'ave to do... I'm just not built for fighting
Spirit'ul stuff resists review, I'd rather be deliting
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 06:08 PM

Aww, TTR ... and you were so close!

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 02:18 AM

So here and there I do declare that Two Bears get my goat
And flocks of geese resound with ease 'it's now unwise to gloat'
So I'll declare no time to spare as all things come to pass
To write my wrong will not take long... it seems, I've been an ass.
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 11:55 PM

I live in New Hampshire, Two bears. The forearm thing is probably 'tennis elbow', and just started around last November. The tips of the fingers on my right hand have been partially numb since about 1991. Nerve conduction tests on that arm were normal, but I've got funny spots on my brain. (But at least the tests show I HAVE a brain!) The numbness doesn't really cause much of a problem. I can't always tell if I'm holding something small, like a piece of paper or a coin.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: bengi
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 10:35 PM

Do you have too much or too little Chi in your organ?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: bengi
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 10:29 PM

A microwave will cook your hotdog, Little Hawk.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 09:30 PM

I was trying to say I did not credit the attitude that something I did not understand must not be so, NOT that I believed it was impossible. I try to keep an open mind, as all good followers of the scientific principle should ( but often do not).

I never said that you believed it was impossible.

I was only suggesting that you approach the subject with an open mind and heart and decide for yourself if lifeforce energy was real.

Aloha nui loa
2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 09:23 PM

philosopy and spiritual(?) concepts related to asian martial arts. Control of your own chi was part of that. I believe a lot of things that are considered 'spiritual' in nature are perhaps real phenomena that we simply can't now, and perhaps never will, explain.

Aloha nui loa Jeri; my sister.

You are ABSOLUTELY correct about martial artists directing ch'i.

I once saw on video tape a Qigong advanced student break a shaft of bamboo over his Qigong master's adam's apple when the bamboo should have crushed the Qigong master's trachea.

Sifu Richard Mooney (a Lin Gong Jing Qigong master) gives Qigong demonstrations around the country, and he is famous for knocking two lines of 6 people down without touching them. Mr. Mooney was an advanced student of Paul Dong. Mr. Dong wrote the book "Invisivle Force: The Ultimate Martial Art). Paul Dong once knocked down a line of 30 people while he was on the other side of a sheet of plywood, to the people could not observe him. or pick up any cues from him.

The study and manipulation of life-force energy is world wide.

Chinese called this energy ch'i; Japanese called it ki. Pueblo Indians called it Itaki, Cerokee Indians called it nuwati, Osage indians called it manitou, Hawai'ians called it mana, etc.

Acupuncture is, I believe, aimed at re-directing chi (please correct me if I'm wrong). For years, people involved in western

You are absolutely correct.

Accupuncture has been used to heal all kinds of maladys, and if memory serves; I once saw a report on a news proadcast like 20/20, 60 minutes, or something similar where an accupuncture therapist was helping heroin addicts break the heroin addiction.

of what he said up there?) I've become perfectly comfortable with the idea that I can't explain certain things. If a thing helps someone, or at least causes no harm, I have no problem with it. If a thing

Good philosophy

Maybe I could fix this stupid forearm problem, or numb fingers, or...

What is wrong with your forearm and fingers.

Two bears, you seem like a fascinating and gentle person, and if I should meet you one day, I'd be glad.

What part of the country do you live in. It's possible we may meet one day.

Aloha nui loa
2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 07:39 PM

Most people really have little or no idea how a CD player or a microwave works either. :-) That doesn't stop them from having confidence in those devices, because they're familiar with them and they know that they DO work from past experience. People who are familiar with moving Chi also know that it works, whether or not they know exactly how it does. There are some wonderful texts from Asia which do explain how, for anyone who is genuinely interested.

Yes, acupuncture helps to restore proper flow of Chi and to discharge blocked-up Chi from various parts of the body...parts that could be described as sort of "junction boxes". Too little Chi in an organ or muscle causes weakness. Too much Chi causes burnout or other stress symptoms. It's really a lot like electricity.

Benji, you asked if a bear shits in the woods. I think you should go into the deep woods and see if you can find an actual bear, maybe a grizzly, and ask him or her about this face-to-face for the definitive answer. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 12:11 PM

Regarding chi, I used to take Judo, and my sensei taught a bit about philosopy and spiritual(?) concepts related to asian martial arts. Control of your own chi was part of that. I believe a lot of things that are considered 'spiritual' in nature are perhaps real phenomena that we simply can't now, and perhaps never will, explain.

Acupuncture is, I believe, aimed at re-directing chi (please correct me if I'm wrong). For years, people involved in western medicine thought it was bogus. Now, I believe it's possible there may be a few hold-outs don't think it works. In any case, western medicine came up with 'transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation' (TENS) as a treatment for chronic pain, which blocks the pain signal traveling neural pathways. They have little charts of where to put attach the wires that look a whole lot like acupuncture maps. You use TENS for a while, and the effects begin to last when you're not wearing the machine. I've used one of the suckers, and it worked. Personally, I don't see much difference in the two methods, other than the fact that TENS is a bit more acceptable to most people in western cultures.

I like what beardedbruce said. (Two bears - maybe a misunderstanding of what he said up there?) I've become perfectly comfortable with the idea that I can't explain certain things. If a thing helps someone, or at least causes no harm, I have no problem with it. If a thing works for me, personally, I'm likely to believe in it without an explanation. I'm not so likely to believe in it if I've only heard about it, no matter how earnest and logical the person telling about it is. Not believing is not the same as believing it's not true, though. I'm willing to take chances on nearly any possibility that doesn't involve the risk of losing something important, and beliefs that can be lost aren't important. Maybe I could fix this stupid forearm problem, or numb fingers, or...

Two bears, you seem like a fascinating and gentle person, and if I should meet you one day, I'd be glad.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 10:42 AM

Two Bears,

I was trying to say I did not credit the attitude that something I did not understand must not be so, NOT that I believed it was impossible. I try to keep an open mind, as all good followers of the scientific principle should ( but often do not).

A friend of mine is working using healing touch. I do not claim to have an explaination, but it appears to me that it is a valid manipulation of energy. She claims I "bleed" energy, but so far we have not been able to show my concious mind how to stop it.

True science looks for theories to explain things, then for evidence one way or the other that the theory describes the facts. There is no definition of those things that one does not have a theory for as impossible- just unexplained.

8-{E

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 10:37 AM

Yikes...

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 10:22 AM

I hate to do this, but I have to go with LH and Amos. As a scientist, I will admit there are some things that I do not have theories that explain the facts. To rule out what Two Bears claims, without examination of the facts of the cases, is more charlatanism than his claims to have done so. I tend to give more value to firsthand testimony than I would to the attitude that, since I don't uunderstand something, it must not be so. .

Bearded Bruce;

If you will

1. Stop limiting yourself by believing something this is impossible.

2. Learn a form of energy work, and apply it to your life.

You will experience things science can not explain.

May you enjoy your journey of self discovery.

2B