BS: Spirituality

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 10:13 AM

Do bears shit in the woods?

Is there supposed to be a point in there somewhere? if so; I missed it.

2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 10:08 AM

I'm rather fond of Seth's one commandment, "thou shalt not violate". But my favorite is "whatever I do to another, I also do to myself".

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 10:06 AM

No, no, Ebbie and Thomas...it's just the process of typing on a keyboard that somehow causes Two Bears to seem aggressive and lacking in humility for some reason. I don't think he likes typing very much. :-) And he does have a keen sense of personal independence, which makes him seem very outspoken at times. (If you push him...he pushes back.)

Aloha nui loa Little Hawk; my brother.

Thank you very much for the kind words.

I am just a bad typist, and do not have a lot of free time.

If someone pushes me in person; I push back if I need to.

Seriously. In person he's a pussycat, as they say, a person with a great deal of humility. He also heals absolutely anyone who needs it (if they want to be healed), at no charge, and is no charlatan I can assure you.

The hundreds of classmates, and three teachers I left lying in the floor (when I was so spiritually sick) during my school days would not describe me that way.

However, I very much doubt you ever will meet him in person, so it's a moot point, isn't it?

LH: Perhaps some of those people could meet us one day when I am going to be in your neighborhood.

One thing I pretty well always disagree with Two Bears about is politics...but so what? I figure he just came from a different political background, that's all.

Absolutely! Our political disagreements does not get in the way of our friendship. It is as simple as you have one opinion about politics, and I have another.

2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 09:50 AM

Perfect example of charlatanism, me thinks...

If you believe that; be my guest.

2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: bengi
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 09:49 AM

Do bears shit in the woods?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 09:44 AM

The only way to know is to be there. Some people have a crusty or undiplomatic manner on the Net and yet are marvelous people when you get to know them. Others are smooth as silk in their online manners...and yet are snakes when you get to know them. Others are both diplomatic AND genuinely nice in their character. Two Bears is of the first category among those three.

It would be nice if we were all perfect in every way... :-)

As for that other shaman, oh yeah, he knew how to move energy all right. Mostly bad energy, and for a bad purpose. Talk about a big waste of a great deal of expertise and ability...

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 07:35 AM

Amos, that poem is adorable. Thank you!

Physician, heal thy self.

ttr, Two Bears spends a good part of every day doing just that. For anyone serious about learning HUNA or any other energetic healing modality, doing the extensive inner work necessary to improve oneself mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually is not a choice anymore. It's a prerequisite, and a requirement.

Like Nike says, Just Do It - or your energy work will not "work" very well at all.

TWo Bears is no charlatan. I do know a charlatan when I see one these days. That's one lesson I hope I will never have to re-learn.

It wasn't really that this other shaman I knew was a fake. He could move plenty of life-force energy to help others if and when he chose to - which wasn't very often.

The difference is he was driven by the desire to manipulate and exert power and control over others, by money and delusions of grandeur. These character traits plus his oodles of natural charisma PLUS his ability to direct mana (Hawaiian for life-force energy or chi) to effect all manner of miraculous-looking phenomena -- leaving newbies to energy work slack-jawed boogie-eyed, believe me -- made him a very dangerous person to know.

This person hurt and robbed a lot of people, including me. He left a few dead women in his wake - and they died in a manner the doctors could not explain, and the police could not investigate.

There are no laws to cover "black magick".

If you knew about the physical disabilities, family traumas and abuse Two Bears has suffered I think you would understand him a little better. Those experiences are what made him the powerful and generous healer he is today.

LH is telling the truth, and so am I to the best of my ability - Two Bears is the Real McCoy, and HUNA is the Real Thing. I have my back back to prove it - and that's just one of the many many HUNA healings and "miracles" I've experienced and witnessed this year.

Unfortunately, the way Two Bears expresses himself in public often puts people off and damages his reputation.   :-(   So who's perfect?

I could go on and on but I'm not supposed to be comparing, judging, arguing or wanting to know all the "whys and wherefores" about others any more.

*sigh* I've messed that up already, I think.

Oh well, I'm by no means perfect either. I think life would be pretty bland if I was.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 06:36 AM

TTR,

I hate to do this, but I have to go with LH and Amos. As a scientist, I will admit there are some things that I do not have theories that explain the facts. To rule out what Two Bears claims, without examination of the facts of the cases, is more charlatanism than his claims to have done so. I tend to give more value to firsthand testimony than I would to the attitude that, since I don't uunderstand something, it must not be so.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 12:15 AM

I generally adore your posts, Little Hawk, and Amos...

...but not this time.

Physician, heal thy self.
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Amos
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 11:59 PM

Opinions are like chakras, fellas -- everybody has at least one.

Meanwhile you have been given direct reports of Two Bears achieving effective results on at least one case. Why are you unwilling to allow that author to speak about her own experiences? Would it unnerve you in some way if she were speaking sooth? I think she is. You have second-hand reports of others, as well.

As an expert finger-pointer I can assure you that it takes a certain amount of arrogance to point out another's arrogance.

Let me add that I learned a poem, about forty years ago, from one of my teachers, that has stayed with me ever since even though I have not always adhered to it:

There's so much good in the worst of us,
And so much bad in the best of us,
That it ill behooves any of us
To talk about the rest of us!

Pax vobiscum !

A

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 11:54 PM

No, no, Ebbie and Thomas...it's just the process of typing on a keyboard that somehow causes Two Bears to seem aggressive and lacking in humility for some reason. I don't think he likes typing very much. :-) And he does have a keen sense of personal independence, which makes him seem very outspoken at times. (If you push him...he pushes back.)

Seriously. In person he's a pussycat, as they say, a person with a great deal of humility. He also heals absolutely anyone who needs it (if they want to be healed), at no charge, and is no charlatan I can assure you. He makes his living with an ordinary day job, not with HUNA. He's one of the most generous people I have ever met in my life.

You've just got to meet him in person, that's all. Communicating with him over a keyboard is not ideal.

However, I very much doubt you ever will meet him in person, so it's a moot point, isn't it?

One thing I pretty well always disagree with Two Bears about is politics...but so what? I figure he just came from a different political background, that's all. I find him very reasonable on pretty well everything else. Come to think of it, I've got good musical friends right here in this town that I disagree with about political matters too...but we agree on music and most other day to day stuff. Politics is really based upon dividing people, don't forget! Divide and conquer...that's how it's done.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 11:41 PM

Cute... So who is the connection then, Twa Bears...? 'Spiritual arrogance' anyone?

Perfect example of charlatanism, me thinks...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 10:00 PM

I had thought that just maybe Two_Bears would respond with a smidgen of humility. But, no.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 07:38 PM

Twa Bears... may I respectfully submit... The original is far and away the superior of the two. As far as I'm concerned, you could do a little retreat and get that ego under control... ;^)
ttr

So what. Everyone has an opinion.

It would help; if I bought a new keyboard so I could clearly see the letters (I never was a touch typist). ;-)

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 11:00 AM

Here's that website I mentioned on yoga..xx..e


http://www.hathayogalesson.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 10:27 AM

--The original commandment was "Harm no one and nothing with hatred" I thought that if you "Harmed nothing with hatred" would exclude hurting people too.--

Twa Bears... may I respectfully submit... The original is far and away the superior of the two. As far as I'm concerned, you could do a little retreat and get that ego under control... ;^)
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 10:03 AM

I've done Hatha Yoga on and off for about 40 years. I'll sometimes go for ages without doing it, and then I'll remember...usually when I have trouble with my back or neck. It's inevitably yoga that helps get me out of pain and back to "normal".
There are some good websites...one it particular that I'll try to track down for you. It shows animated yoga postures and I find them very good illustrations for people to follow...

PS-I'm really glad you talked with your friend.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 09:44 AM

Never dump on anothers religion; it is no sillier than your own. (Kendall)

Some religions are rationally superior to others. That means the others are dumber. (Steve Allen)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 08:21 AM

It's one small part of yoga, as I'm sure you know, Daylia.

Yeah, I knew that. *sigh* I posted that last message when I was tired already. I knew better, too. I'd been working at the computer for 6 hours on the HUNA material. I should have taken a break first, might have been thinking more clearly and feeling a little kindlier toward the discipline of yoga.

Oops ...Hatha Yoga, that is.

It sounds like you were either doing the sun salutation a little wrong somehow or maybe you just had a structural weakness there or maybe you were overdoing it. At any rate, one can run into such problems using any physical exercise program, whether it be weightlifting, running, or Hatha Yoga.

You're right, Little Hawk, on all 3 counts. I've often thought that myself. I think part of the problem was that I never practiced yoga in a class with a proper instructor. I learned it out of a book and always practiced it at home alone. It was hard to check my position while performing those postures, even using a mirror. I'd ask my kids "Does my back look straight while I'm doing this?" and they'd say "yeah yeah yeah" and run out the door to play soccer or whatever.

So I may very well have been doing that stretch a little wrong.

And I remember that occasionally my back hurt a bit anyway, even before I learned the yoga - ever since I was pregnant with the twins, in fact. So I may have been "set up" for problems way back then.

I did enjoy the yoga so much - as Freda said, its like ballet - so graceful, great for flexibility, balance and breathing. It was so hard to give it up. I kept practicing it for months even after my back had started twinging a little. Then one day, it was more than just a little. The pain was pretty bad. I wasn't even sure if the problem was in my back, my hip or somehow all the way down the back of one leg. It just hurt from the waist down, on one side.

I'd been "warned" too --- when I'd start that particular stretch that small still voice in my head started saying "One more time, just one more time and you're gonna be sorry". But would I listen to my Self? Oh no, not good ole trusting learn-things-the-hard-way me ....

"No pain no gain" after all. That's the Western approach to fitness and athletics. I was determined not to be a wimp.

But I don't mind being a wimp today. At least I'm a wimp with a back that works!   ;-)

I AM very grateful to have met Two Bears. I am learning this wonderful technology called HUNA, and it's changing my whole life for the better! My family and friends are grateful too ... even a few strangers I've felt compassion for and spontaneously offered the healing energy to. In particular, people suffering the pain of athletic injuries seem to bring out the best in me these days!

I've got "Holy HUNA!" healing stories comin out the yin-yang at this point, and I've only been practicing it for barely a year!

I can hardly wait for the opportunity to share these techniques with others at the workshops! I wanna get these teachings out there, this ole world needs 'em so badly it seems ...

Anyway, thank you very much LH and Freda for posting the information about yoga. And I do apologize again for slamming it a bit in my last post. What happened to me was because of ME, not the yoga!

Aloha nui loa,

daylia

PS Georgiansilver, thank you for your thoughtful post! I come from a Christian background as well - I was born and raised a Roman Catholic, although I always had major trouble trying to be a "good little Catholic girl". Believe me, Jesus is still MORE than just alright by me! My love and understanding of Him and His teachings has only grown deeper over the years I've been exploring other spiritual paths.

And when I'd got myself into big BIG trouble, VERY hot water "following the wrong gods home", lo and behold He was there for me!! All I had to do was ask. I'll never forget it.

Uh-oh, I'm getting tears ...   

Gotta sign off now .... thanks for listening

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 08:20 AM

I've been very well impressed by Two Bears' brand of HUNA. It works extremely well, by using what I would call a directed flow of "Chi" (life force). The Japanese call it Ki. The East Indians call it Prana.

Thank you for the kind words my brother.


A healthy person is strong in Chi, a sick person is depleted of it. Same goes for a healthy plant or any other living thing. A lot of Chi can be gathered through improving breathing technique, as is done in HUNA and in Yoga and Qi Gong.

You are ABAOLUTELY correct.

Spirituality is a set of practical methods practiced by oneself to improve the inner person, and it requires no outer authority

I have heard it said that "Religion is for people afraid of going to hell. Spirituality is for the people who have been there".

consequence, because they are one and the same. That's Self-Realization.

I like the HUNA motto: "Harm nothing with hatred." Very wise.

I can not take credit for the one HUNA commandment. The only credit I can take is for shortening it to four words. The original commandment was "Harm no one and nothing with hatred" I thought that if you "Harmed nothing with hatred" would exclude hurting people too. ;-)

Sometimes this is hard to remember when dealing with mosquitoes...but I'm sure it can be done.

Of course it can be done. Most people kill mosquitos on a reflex, and they do not have tome to think hatred toward the little mosquito.

The best policy would be use insect repellant.

If you do not want the chemicals in Odd, Cutter, etc, buy some essential oil of Pennyroyal, and make a water of pennyroyal.

You can make a water of Essential oil by placing a cup of distilled water, 10-12 drops of essential oil and about a teaspoon of rum, or vodka placed in a spray bottle and shaken well.

The rum or vodka helps the essential oil and water mix up instead of immediately seperating.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 07:57 AM

Kim, I was raised Baptist but I escaped. I found no logic in that sect.

I was raised Baptist; but spent most of mt life as an athiest.

I had an OBE (Out of Body Experience) in 1996 and my worldview changed.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 09:44 PM

Those are good quotations, Thomas.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 09:02 PM

Life is only real, then: when I am. -Gurdjieff

Judgement and comparison lead us irrevokably to duality. -Krishnamurti

My 'yoga' is that of intense labor, artistically inclined... followed by reluctant surrender to rather spontanious napping...

Raptor, be honest with your friend, and care for him... from the distance he needs.

Be true to your self, so you may be true to others...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 08:10 PM

hi daylia,

your story of long distance healing (particularly for a slipped disc) was fascinating.

I practised yoga twice daily for around fifteen years. it is an art of gentle stretching, and works just as well done gently as done with grunt. For that reason, i am not a follower of Iyengar yoga, which moves into an athletic, power crunching style. pushing the body beyond its limits can lead to all sorts of problems.

as well, asanas can be chosen which have the equivalent health benefits without stressing the body. For example, rather than doing a headstand, the same benefits can be achieved by alternating a shoulderstand pose with the fish. The shoulderstand achieves the benefits to organs (kidneys etc) of hanging upside down, and the fish achieves the pressure on the head without stressing the neck.

yoga works for those who start out quietly, and gently stretch and extend over a period of time. anyone doing any type of exercise vigorously can do damage if they move suddenly in the wrong position or without balancing properly.

Salute to the Sun (suryanamaskar) should only be performed when all the individual asanas which comprise it can each be comfortably done as individual postures first. in some ways yoga is like ballet, grace, balance and breathing are all part of it.

having said all that, if I slipped a disc doing any type of movement, i'd avoid it in the future as well. you are very lucky to have met Two Bears.

best wishes

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 07:31 PM

When people say "yoga" they are most commonly referring to Hatha Yoga which is a series of physical exercises, mostly what you would call stretching exercises. It's one small part of yoga, as I'm sure you know, Daylia. It sounds like you were either doing the sun salutation a little wrong somehow or maybe you just had a structural weakness there or maybe you were overdoing it. At any rate, one can run into such problems using any physical exercise program, whether it be weightlifting, running, or Hatha Yoga.

The word "yoga" means "union"(with the divine), and it includes a number of different disciplines including physical yoga (Hatha), breathing techniques (which are great!), meditation, study of sacred scriptures, diet, and so on. A Yogi is someone who has mastered all of those disciplines. In the West people usually associate it mainly with the physical exercises, however. There is yoga for the body, yoga for the mind, and yoga for the spirit.

I'm cautious with the sun salutation and some other yoga postures, cos my back is not so strong.

I've been very well impressed by Two Bears' brand of HUNA. It works extremely well, by using what I would call a directed flow of "Chi" (life force). The Japanese call it Ki. The East Indians call it Prana. A healthy person is strong in Chi, a sick person is depleted of it. Same goes for a healthy plant or any other living thing. A lot of Chi can be gathered through improving breathing technique, as is done in HUNA and in Yoga and Qi Gong. These things are pretty universal, I find, and you come across them in most spiritual traditions...but that doesn't mean you'll hear about them in an organized religion. Not by any means.

Religion, I think, is generally a set of beliefs and rules, combined with an authority structure to largely control the outer person. Spirituality is a set of practical methods practiced by oneself to improve the inner person, and it requires no outer authority structure, though it certainly requires experienced instructors to guide novices in mastering various techniques.

Kind of like guitar or banjo playing that way... :-)

Religion purports to be a path toward knowing God. And for some it is. Spirituality is definitely a path toward knowing God, since God exists quietly inside the individual. As the individual comes to know his or her true Self better, the knowing of God occurs as a natural consequence, because they are one and the same. That's Self-Realization.

A Self-realized person tends to act in ways that are most beneficial to all concerned, and tends to genuinely care for both self and others, and does not tend to fall prey anymore to toxic emotions (such as hatred, envy, greed, etc). A Self-realized person is not weak, but readily able to stand up for himself and on behalf of others who are in need.

So, well, most of us are part way there...and with time we will continue to improve ourselves.

I like the HUNA motto: "Harm nothing with hatred." Very wise. Sometimes this is hard to remember when dealing with mosquitoes...but I'm sure it can be done. You see, the problem doesn't like in killing the mosquito, the problem lies in carrying the emotion of hatred while you do it. :-) It's bad for the nervous system on a subtle level.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 02:38 PM

Raptor, I learned some basic yoga stretches out of a book and practiced them as a sports warm-up for years -- until I slipped a disc in my back once doing the sun salutation.

Consequently, I don't think that twisting oneself into a pretzel is necessarily all that good for the health. Yoga was good for developing self-awareness though, and also for beginning to learn how to breathe properly (which most Westerners don't have a clue about).

I suffered with the pain of that slipped disc for years until I met Two Bears over the internet last summer. He used a combination of shamanic and Huna energetic healing techniques to move the disc back into place. That healing took all of 5 minutes over the phone, all the way from Tennessee to Ontario. I don't think any doctor, surgeon or chiropractor could have effected such a fast and complete healing! I was dancing in incredulous joy at the relief of that long-standing pain for months afterwards - and believe me, I've been learning and practicing Huna techniques ever since!

Will I ever practice yoga again? Probably not. I've been practicing Qigong, particulary Ba Duan Jin for about a year now. I'm finding that these "softer" martial arts are much kinder to the body, while Huna is much more beneficial for the mind, emotions, the body and the spirit.

Some people find that yoga is beneficial, but sorry --- I just cannot "back" that up!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Raptor
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 08:05 AM

How many here practice Yoga?

And what for?(Streaching or Meditation)

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Raptor
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 08:02 AM

UPDATE: I disscussed my worries with my friend and was assured by him and others that know him that the Group is not after money, just a like minded bunch of people seeking a higher form of enlightenment.
My friend further assured me that if anyone ever asked him for money he would "Run like Hell".

I believe him.

I wished him well. And said(On your advice) "Call me sometime."

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: kendall
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 07:13 AM

Kim, I was raised Baptist but I escaped. I found no logic in that sect.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 12:23 AM

That's a clever definition, freda! You could also say it is who you are before you drum up something to be.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 12:14 AM

There has been a huge world-wide, up-swing in "EST Training."

Is your friend one of these mis-guided souls???

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 11:54 PM

Some people find their spiritual center in organized religion, and that is all right. It works for them. Others find their spiritual center somewhere else, and I believe that is all right too.

We don't all necessarily take the same path to the Divine. And that, I believe, is also all right. (even though it defies the logic of my Baptist upbringing)

Cults are something a little different, though, that take away a person's individual spiritual choice. If that's the case, this may not be such a good thing for your friend. But ---- I am discovering myself, there are a lot of growing pains on the spiritual journey. Perhaps your friend is worn out because this is what he is experiencing. Sometimes you have to get worse before you can get better - after all, a resurrection can only happen after death.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 10:45 PM

Once again I'd like to suggest a book by Alan Watts titled The Wisdon Of Insecurity.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 10:13 PM

spirituality is what's happening when you're not looking at yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 09:40 PM

Maybe I could get him to answer a trick question, or something....

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 09:35 PM

Ah, yes. Provided that is really the Buddha! Therein lies the problem

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 09:29 PM

I think you open a semantic whirlpool with that one, Don.

It is one thing to be totally able to tolerate mystery, and quite another to assert that it is essential to spirituality. I think knowing in the highest sense of the word (not spitting data back, but knowing is what God does and what any spiritual being is capable of.

Certainty is a kind of faith in itself, which does not need data or information or justification.

None of this has anything to do with bashing opponents with information and being dumped back with counter-data.

But having ways to acquire answers is a million times more important tha having some past set of answers! :>)

If I met the Buddha on the road, I'd hang out with him. Not to borrow his answers, but just to feel what he felt like.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 09:16 PM

Not necessarily related to the current situation, just general a general observation.

"If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!"

Strange! Until you get an interpretation of what this means. The essence of spirituality and religion is mystery. If you begin to think you have the answers and that you know what is in the mind of God, you are not asking the right questions. If you think you can see God clearly, then that's not God. Erase that idea, back up, and start over.

Some people can't stand mystery and ambiguity. They have to have pat answers for everything. That's what breeds fundamentalism. Religion is mystery. Beware, especially of priests, ministers, or gurus who tell you that they have the answers.

The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 08:42 PM

Many religions depart from their best spiritual insights the minute they decide they need to get organized. In the Christian case, there was a lot of emphasis in the Gospel of Thomas on the individual nature as offspring of God which was completely dropped out of the teachings of the Church once it got organized.

An expert on NPR said the other day that although the rationale for this cutting is not really known, it would seem to be that they needed more emphasis on the kinds of lessons that made people manageable, rather than self-determined, for the sake of getting the church to grow. Obviously an organizationally successful decision, but arguably a less spiritual one. And the Christian church is not the only one to suffer this strange transformation when organizing, I believe.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: kendall
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 07:11 PM

Never dump on anothers religion; it is no sillier than your own.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 06:03 PM

I would offer for consideration that there are plenty of miles of "spirituality" to go before the first glimmer of God comes over the horizon. But you need to find your own center fully before he's gonna be more than a Big Concept. Institutionalized versions don't do a lot for me. It's a verb with a huge amount of Being in it. That's an acquired skill.

I know this may not go down with some. That's OK with me.

But it's 2 cents' worth....


A

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 06:00 PM

"daylia" I find your post very interesting. My comments came from a Christian heart.. and the principles I try to live by are Christian ones. The thoughts from the book about HUNA reflect the efforts that Christians should make in changing their own behaviour. There are many other expectations also but we all find that difficulty in perfecting our ways...of becoming more "mature" in our behaviour and belief. Nevertheless, I must keep trying...keep making the effort to be the best I can be and sometimes failing....
I try not to judge but sometimes I know I do. I try not to compare but know I sometimes do. With regard to understanding... I have found in my belief that I did not have to understand to believe but had to believe to begin my understanding....To everyone their own beliefs and standards but perhaps if we all tried to put some of those things into practice..our attitudes to our fellow man/woman would be far healthier.
Be Blessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 05:19 PM

Well, BroJerry, I mentioned prayer. Any points fir that?

Jus' funnin'...

BroBobert

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 04:11 PM

Jerry, if you care to, scroll up a few posts and you'll find ....

I Am That I Am".

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: kendall
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 04:07 PM

Jerry, it has everything to do with God, and nothing to do with organized religeon

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 02:08 PM

Interesting thing about this thread: Only once has God been referred to, and that in a negative example. I thought that spirituality had something to do with God, not just self-realization....

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 11:12 AM

Oh, good post there, Jerry. Yeah, when you change some people really aren't gonna like it. Well, that could mean they've got a problem of their own too, couldn't it?

I remember deciding to go out West and visit Rolling Thunder back in the late 70's. My parents had a big fight with me about it, cos they had had it in mind at the time that I was going to do something else instead, and my going out west wasn't THEIR idea. In other words, they wanted to control my life.

Nobody controls my life but me. I went out west, visited Rolling Thunder, and it turned out to be one of the best things I ever did in my whole life. So, listen to your own inner voice, that's what I say.

"It is not he or she or them or it that you belong to" - Bob Dylan

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 10:32 AM

Yeah, sounds good to me. I certainly got a great charge out of the last HUNA workshop in Atlanta, and am looking forward to this one. Your job in life is to change yourself, not change others. Why? Cos you don't have jurisdiction over others, that's why.

I have no attraction whatsoever to cults that try to control their membership in various ways, blatant or subtle. I avoid such people. I like my independence and I intend to maintain it.

On the other hand, if I want to learn to play a challenging guitar technique I would seek out the best teacher I could find and learn form him/her. Same goes for spiritual disciplines and techniques like meditation, HUNA, tai chi, and so on. You learn from those who have more experience than you do. That's the way to go. But if they try to take over your life and make your decisions for you, you say, "Hasta la vista, baby!" I've met a few like that... :-) I think such people have a serious ego problem...they have difficulty controlling themselves in some way, so they opt to control others. That's not healthy.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 10:21 AM

Hey, Rap!

I've read this whole thread and don't have much to add. There's been a lot of good advice in here. The only things I'd offer is that none of us has the power to change someone else. It's difficult enough to change ourselves, and we are as deaf-eared to the wisdom of others as we feel others are to our advice. Anyone who has raised kids and gone through their teenage and young adult years discovers how limited we are in shaping the lives of others. And probably just as well. The cliche "Experience is the best teacher" has a lot of truth to it (as most cliches do.) There is a time when you have to let go, and pray (depending on your own spiritual life) that the person will find their way through the valley they're walking in to. And let them know that you'll still be there for them, without judgment if they need you. With nary an "I told you you souldn't have.."

It also sounds like you're taking your friend's new direction in life as a rejection of you. If that's the case, bad move, buddy. It's not about you. Seven years ago, I made a dramatic change in my life which was embraced by some friends, and attacked by others. It was a real revelation for me. The people who attacked me started each sentence with "I." I finally got fed up with them and said, "Excuse me... I thought we were talking about me, not you." Wherever your friend is headed, give thanks for the friendship you've had, because no one can take that away from you. If your friend is heading into destruction, you've done what you can to dissuade him/her.

Now, it's time to "Let It Be."

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 08:53 AM

Georgiansilver, your post has prompted me to share these thoughts from a book about HUNA (Hawaiian mysticism) called Clearing Your Lifepath Through Kahuna Wisdom by Dr. Allan P Lewis. These are Dr Lewis' recommendations to HUNA students wishing to clear "complexes and fixations" (negative mental/emotional habits) and to grow spiritually in the process. I think they fit in very well with this discussion ...

"Make no comparisons
Make no judgements
Delete your need to understand

Make no comparisons means you are not to compare your life to the lives of others. Nor are you to compare your life to theirs.
Nor are you to compare the lives of other people to each other. You are as and what you are. So are they. Change your own life if you wish, but not because of comparisons to others, only by your own considered choice. And allow others the same privilege.

Make no judgements, for these are quick reactions to previous programming, and as you have been learning previous progamming is more often wrong than right. With the aid of the High Self you have the right to judge yourself, but not others. Learn to respond to people and circumstances, not as old habit patterns would have you do but as each experience calls for response, based on the thoughtful assessment of its individual merits.

Delete your need to understand, the need to know the "why(s) and wherefore(s)" of the people and circumstances around you. Accept understanding as it comes, not with an emotional and negative "need" to understand. Wisdom and understanding come, not because you think you need them, but when you allow them to flow through you from the High Self. Wisdom and understanding are a function of what is, not what you think you want things to be.

In fact, all three of these injunctions are saying simply this: Give up your ideas of what you think you ought to be. Accept what is. Then proceed to advance yourself from there. Only then will you cease to criticize, to contradict, and to display all the tricks of negative ego. You will become truly humble and gain the great impersonal overview.

Wisdom and understanding will flow your way, and you will begin to know the meaning of I Am That I Am".


I'm finding that practicing Dr Lewis recommendations is quite the challenge, requiring constant mental vigilance. At least, this new perpective seem to be completely at odds with the way I was conditioned to think and behave! But it's worth it. All that judging, condemning, criticizing, analysing, comparing, competing, flouting and defending my precious personal opinions as if they were the most important, vital thing in the universe --- what a waste of time and energy I now realize all that was! And I'm becoming a happier, healthier, more vital and loving person for my efforts.

I think I'm more pleasant to be around these days too!

daylia


PS I'm preparing material for the HUNA workshops Two Bears and I are giving later this month, and I do appreciate very much the opportunity to "rehearse" these teachings on a public forum.

So Mahalo nui loa! (thank you very much) to the Mudcat!