BS: We're not against the soldiers.

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: Hrothgar
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 05:41 AM

The best way to support the troops is to bring them home.

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 05:22 AM

Rapaire---Larry K's posting was utter bollox......

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: Nerd
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 12:28 AM

Hey, Bobert lost his Wes Ginny dialect in that post. He must be REALLY committed to this issue!

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: mg
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 08:31 PM

it happened.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 12:25 PM

Bobert: You say "I'm sure this sort of stuff happened…." Well, I'm not sure it happened. (I'm not sure it didn't, either. As they say, it's impossible to prove a negative.)

See the thread BS: Were Vietnam veterans spat upon? (Not you, Bobert; I know you're aware of the thread because you posted to it, and I thank you for that, but others might not be aware of it.) Suffice it to say I feel certain that IF it ever happened, the stories of it happening were greatly exaggerated.

We have to be prepared for ridiculous, slanderous accusations being made against antiwar protesters, and for some naïve people to believe them, and repeat them. One thing we can do is challenge them.

Larry K: Can you cite any source for your allegation that "terrorist organizations have quoted Ted Kennedy and used the Michael Moore movie as recruiting films"?

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 04:03 AM

Rapaire, thank you for your observations, and the song, which I had never read before.

This is something I really can't argue with you. There is a basic difference in our philosophies which can not be changed here, nor need we.

My views are only based on a wish-that one day there will be no need for a military because humanity has stopped being aggressive.

But this, most sadly, isn't going to happen. It's too embedded in our DNA.

Thanks again for your posts... they are always thoughtful and interesting.

..xx..e (settling into her cave for the long haul.)

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: Nerd
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 10:38 PM

LarryK's point is NOT well made.

"If these speeches and rallys cause terrorists to think the USA is divided and weak," in his words, then it is only because George Bush's speeches and rallies disagree with them. How can you blame one group and not the other? It takes two to quarrel, as they say.

First of all, if America looks divided it's because we ARE divided, not because Kennedy and Moore did anything. Bush has been the great divider, and has no one but himself to blame that he is running neck in neck with a guy few people had heard of a year ago.

Second, I don't think you have any evidence that the Michael Moore movie is used a recruiting film by terrorists, do you? Thought you could just slip that on by, didn'tcha?

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 03:49 PM

And, Larry K, the terrorists are sure to be using films of nude Iraqi prisoners and Bush saying "Bring it on" in their recruiting films alot more than anything Michael More or Ted Kennedy have to say... If you know anything about marketing, you know that is true... And I wouldn't assume that depicting the US as "divided and weak" does even half as much as the Bush foriegn policy has done in recruitments...

These are flawed arguments that have been recycled by the neo-con PR machine to continue to turn groups against each other which is the centerpiece of their control over evryone and every issue. I don't buy it but, given other things you have said here at Mudcat, you were one of their easier sells...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 03:26 PM

Larry K., your points are well made. But remember that troops overseas don't get the whole message: we didn't during the Vietnam-time and they don't now. I know, personally, more than a few 'Nam vets who were going to "kill some of those hippie protesters" when they got home; they ended up joining them.

War is a glass globe, isolating you from what is going on at home, a glass that only allows certain views through it. Also, you must remember that when you are in a life-threatening situation ANYTHING that you perceive as undermining your position is also a threat. For example, in 1969 an EC-121 was shot down by North Korea and we stationed in South Korea went to a DEFCON 2 status. I sat in on a meeting where the Divisonal readiness was discussed, and it was found that we had about 1/3 the basic load of mines we were supposed to have TO&E -- the rest had been shipped to the troops in Vietnam. The troops in VN were cussed and railed about because equipment that we might need had been taken from us in Korea and sent to VN. We didn't hate the troops in 'Nam (some, like myself, had brothers there), but their needs now threatened us.

Lincoln to Herndon, February 1, 1848:

"I have always intended, and still intend, to vote supplies; perhaps not in the precise form recommended by the President, but in a better form for all purposes, except Locofoco party purposes. It is in this particular you seem mistaken. The Locos are untiring in their efforts to make the impression that all who vote supplies or take part in the war do of necessity approve the President's conduct in the beginning of it; but the Whigs have from the beginning made and kept the distinction between the two. In the very first act nearly all the Whigs voted against the preamble declaring that war existed by the act of Mexico; and yet nearly all of them voted for the supplies. As to the Whig men who have participated in the war, so far as they have spoken in my hearing they do not hesitate to denounce as unjust the President's conduct in the beginning of the war."

I, too, would vote whatever supplies were needed. Support of the troops is not necessarily support of the President's policies.

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 03:09 PM

Doug, sometimes minorities are right. And in any case they *have* rights.

On the other hand, the people who voted for Bush were a minority...

clint

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 02:58 PM

The left seems to repeat the same mantra "we are for the soldiers but against the war" or "we are for the soldiers but disagree with the current administration".   The problem is that terrorist organizations have quoted Ted Kennedy and used the Michael Moore movie as recruiting films.   If these speeches and rallys cause terrorists to think the USA is divided and weak, it helps them recruit more terrorists.   This leads to more US lives being killed. (either soldiers or civilians- remember there were 8 terrorist attacks on the USA before 9/11 and before we invaded Iraq)

e-mails published from soldiers in Iraq and interviews with solders returning from Iraq state that the solders think this mantra is horse manure.   They don't believe it for one second.

Everyone has the right to protest the war.   Protesting alone does not make you a patriot or a traitor.   It is your belief in the USA.   Juding from the signs and language in these protests I think the majority of protestors are far closer to traitors than they are to patriots.

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: DougR
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 02:49 PM

I guess it might be conceivable that you "aginers" represent a minority point of view.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 01:16 PM

Ellen, in any situation it takes true courage to go against the mass of people. At US military, at least, you are instructed, as an enlisted man or woman, that it is illegal for you to follow illegal orders and that you should refuse to obey such and report the orders to higher authority.

Now, this carries with it the unspoken charge that you must a) be correct and b) are willing to accept the consequences of your action. Nobody likes a fink, and that is an attitude in every sector of life, not just the military. But consider that both Abu Graibh and My Lai were both originally reported by enlisted personnel and then think of the courage that took.

In the history of the US Army, there have been other (and much older, dating back to the 19th Century) times when enlisted personnel refused to obey wrongful orders. (I don't have my books here at work, but I can cite the situations after I get home if you'd like.)

    I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
    The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
    The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
    I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
    O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
    But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
    The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
    O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

    I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
    They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
    They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
    But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the                                     stalls!
    For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
    But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
    The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
    O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

    Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
    Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
    An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
    Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
    Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
    But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
    The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
    O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

    We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
    But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
    An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
    Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
    While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
    But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
    There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
    O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

    You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
    We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
    Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
    The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
    For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
    But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
    An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
    An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!
(lyrics also posted here - click)
It's always been a puzzle to me why people assume that everyone in the military share the same views as their leaders. I suspect it's because the leaders get the headlines and the grunts take the bullets and die, their own opinions about it unheard.

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 12:24 PM

Rapaire, of course soldiers are people. That's what I worry about. They are individuals who have signed an agreement to follow orders, which if they disagree with, they can be either put into prision, or in time of war, shot.

Being in the military means one gives up one's right to being an individual in ways I find difficult to understand, much less agree with.

I know there have been times that individuals have had to band together and fight some great insanities perpetrated by other bands of individuals...but it all is so damned depressing to me.

Okay, back to my cave again...xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 09:49 AM

Bobert, the guy was drunk, and I knew him from before my NG unit was activated. He was a jerk than and he continued to be a jerk. He's also dead, killed by his alcohol addiction; fortunately he left no spouse or progeny or much of anything else, actually.

I sat in the SEATAC airport with other veterans, when I was coming back from Korea, with Woodstock returnees across the aisle. We stared at each other, and I thought that except for a roll of the dice our places could have been exchanged and no one would know the difference.

After I returned I helped two guys obtain CO status.

Ellen, soldiers are people. I never met anyone in the Infantry who was both sane and in favor of war and killing -- in fact, those who'd "been there" were the most agin it. (I don't count the very few psychos, and the military CERTAINLY doesn't want them; when found, they provide psychiatric treatment and a discharge, and often followup psychiatric treatments as well. Such people don't follow orders well, among other very cogent reasons.)

I said elsewhere that I'd shipped off 21 boxes (12 x 12 x 18 inches) of paperbacks with the 1/148 Field Artillery. These are local people, neighbors and relatives and friends and the books were collected for them from donations from the community. Before anyone screams, yes, about four books were removed -- these were self-declaimed pornography and perusing the contents two of us thought so, too. Titles included "Revolution for the hell of it", "Book of Mormon", a BUNCH of science fiction, Tom Clancy, various bodice-rippers, a good selection of mysteries, word-search puzzles, poetry, "100 years of solitude" (in both Spanish and English) -- the sort of thing you might find in your own home. Support the troops, not the war seems to be the watchword around here and I can agree with it.

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: JennyO
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 09:40 AM

I personally am one of the many who are against the war but not the soldiers. However I can understand that there could be a perception from some that we are against the soldiers too.

What sprang to my mind straight away when I read this thread was the song "Universal Soldier" and the lines "He's the universal soldier and he really is to blame..." There is this thinking from some that the soldiers themselves should refuse to take up arms and that if they don't, they are to blame too - which is very fine in theory but easier said than done. So I can understand how some parents of soldiers might be sensitive on this issue.

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 04:59 AM

Ok, I admit it. I'm against soldiers. ANY soldiers, anywhere.

Being a pacifist I guess means I'm unpatriotic. And, oh yes...by the way, I AM unpatriotic.

To me, soldiers are for fighting and patriotism is for dividing.

I'll go back into my cave now.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 04:03 AM

I've been opposed to the war in Iraq since the idea of it first hit the news. A number of times, people have chided me for "not supporting our troops." They see very clearly that those who oppose the war are detrimental to our soldiers in numerous ways - it hurts morale on "our side" and gives hope to our opponents. They say that since I don't support my country's war effort, I don't love my country. Oh, and they also accuse me of "disrespecting the President."

I suppose this is logic that has been used in every war since Cain slew Abel - and I suppose I have to say there's an element of truth in that logic. If "supporting our troops" means helping them win an unjust war, then I guess I don't support them. If "love of country" means that I mustn't criticize our leaders when they are unjust, then I guess I don't love my country. I can't say I agree with that logic, but I guess I have to admit that it makes sense on the surface.

So, what's a good way to refute that sort of logic in words a talk-show audience can understand? I have to say that in the area where I live, I'm afraid to put an anti-war bumper sticker on my car. Those who support the war are very angry at us who do not - and I like my pretty red car. I didn't mind getting fingers flipped at me when I marched for peace - but I don't want my car vandalized.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: Nerd
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 12:12 AM

Amen, Bobert!

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 11:40 PM

Well, I ain't gonna get into this thing too far but as fir me and my 60's cohorts, we was like brothers to those who went to Nam. I ran a rock joint in Richmond and we sent a driver down to Fort Lee (30 miles south) to fetch our brothers in arms to come to out events. Also did draft counseling. I wouldn't have thought in a milllion yeras to say anything offensive to my Nam brothers...

Weren't no spittin', no calls o' "baby killers" 'er nuthin from out anti war group... Maybe we was more enlightened in Richmond, Va. but we knew who was sending our friends and brothers to Nam.

Now I'm sure this sort of stuff happened but, as much as I love my brother Rap, I'd say that alot of the spiters were governemnt plants who were trying to divide us... We had folks on our campus who was plants. They said all kinds of stupid stuff and tried to incite us. Firget it. Martin Luther King didn't teach us to take out our frustrations for crappy policies on our brothers and guys we grew up playing ball with...

Now, Rap, I apologize to you from the majority of those of us of the anti-war movement for the redneck assholes that called you names. They do not represent the majority of us and at the time were nuthin' but the jerks that most of us tried to distance ourselves from. And I know I am speaking for the vast majority of those of us who were against the Vietnam War.

And those jerks were loosers then and if you were to follow those types of folks you'd find that they are still loosers...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: Nerd
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 11:38 PM

Rapaire,

It's still not clear to me that it happened, because this is the same guy! Only he and his mother seem to have heard it. But the fact that he himself makes the claim this time does make it more likely.

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 11:18 PM

Well....

I was, myself, called a "baby killer" -- to be precise, it was "baby murderer." This was followed by a spitting, on the sidewalk, not on me, and the person walking away. And I wasn't even in Vietnam; I was in Korea back in '69! I did nothing about it, just let it pass as it wasn't worth it and besides, he was drunk. But that's by the way, and nobody ever asked me about it.

There's this, I copied it in full because you have to register with Seattle's KING-5 news:

"Bainbridge Island mayor apologizes to veteran for parade incident

"09:02 AM PDT on Thursday, July 15, 2004

"Associated Press

"BAINBRIDGE ISLAND, Wash. - Mayor Darlene Kordonowy has apologized to an Iraq War veteran who says he was called a murderer when he marched in a July 4 parade here.

"Even if politically we are perceived as left-leaning, it does not mean that is how we treat people," Kordonowy told The Sun newspaper of Bremerton. "We are also very tolerant and respectful of different points of view."

"Bainbridge Island is located six miles west of Seattle.

"Jason Gilson, 23, of East Bremerton, said he was carrying a sign reading "Veterans for Bush," when a man and a woman approached him and called him a murderer.

"You don't need to be attacking individuals for their partisanship," said Gilson, who as a Marine corporal was wounded in Nasiriyah early in the Iraq conflict. He is now in the Ready Reserve. "I was very unimpressed with the way the people of Bainbridge Island were."

"According to one account, the incident started when a parade announcer asked Gilson what he was a veteran of. Gilson said it was asked in a derisive manner.

"Deborah Cheadle, one of the announcers, has sent him a letter saying her question was not intended to offend him.

"The incident drew national attention after the Seattle Post-Intelligencer printed a July 9 column about it."

And there was an editorial about it in the Bainbridge Review.

I think that it did happen, but if I had been involved I wouldn't have made a big deal of it. Then again, I'm not exactly a "Veteran For Bush" either.

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 11:09 PM

That's why they call it the blues...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 10:51 PM

Plenty of work, Bobert, but not much pay - cheers - Sam

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 10:45 PM

Any work fir a blues player there, Sam?

Though I love my home and my friends, I've fallen out of love with my country and maybe in the market fir a new one...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 10:40 PM

Serendipity! F9/11 premieres here in NZ tonight. This morning Lila Lipscomb was interviewed on our national witrless - an interesting lady. I guess after a life of 'patriotism' it took peronal tragedy to 'open her eyes'.

Back in the 60s I won a government sponsored lottery - the prize? A paid holiday In the Army. Our version of conscription for 20yr old males consisted of drawing 'lucky' birthdays by ballot. I quite enjoyed the training. BUT.. at the same time I was quite heavily involved in anti-Vietnam protest, especially a visit by LBJ to NZ too whip up supporrt for more troops. At one stage my unit was on 24-hour notice to go. I was set to go 'bush' insted.

During training we had a political pep-talk on Vietnam and the 'Domino Theory'. I was sitting up the back with senior NCO instructors who'd seen service in WWII, Korea and Malaya. Their sardonic comments about "This one's different" were interesting, to say the least. Iraq's 'even more different'.

Anyway... all the above, and what's gone on since, is why I moved here, as far as I can get from the madness in the rest of the world 25 years ago. Lila Lipscomb's viewpoint was indeed interesting to listen to...

Cheers - Sam - Stewart Island (NZ)

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: Nerd
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:33 PM

Rapaire,

I don't buy that people in Seattle yelled "baby killer" at a returning soldier. This is the same kind of propaganda that was used after Vietnam, when the story was spread that protesters were spitting at returning soldiers. As it turned out, no one was ever able to prove that that had happened. In folkloristic terms, the narrative always maintained "flight distance": when you tracked it to the supposed eyewitness it was always a friend of a friend of his who had seen it, and so on and so on. (Watch, now five people on Mudcat will claim they were really there).

In this case, whose word are we taking that someone yelled "baby killer" on July 4th 2004? Well, it looks like the word of a journalist with a Seattle newspaper. But look a little closer. The journalist does not claim to have witnessed this. Whom did he interview to get this story then?

Well, Jason's mother, for one.

Indeed, she seems to be the source of the story in the community. "I believe Jason's mom that someone called her son a murderer," the Chamber of Commerce chairman says. What does this mean? He was unable to get independent verification that this had happened, despite the fact that he was investigating the situation. So he had to simply take her word for it. There were not a hundred eyewitnesses to this, it seems, just good ol' Jason's mom.

And who is Jason's mom? "A tireless activist behind the 'pro-troops' movement," whatever that means. For one thing, it certainly means that she supports the war!

I find it all too convenient. It looks to me like she's using this parade as a way to discredit war protesters, and this wouldn't be the first time. I'm just glad she didn't claim her son was spit on.

And this answers Jim's initial question. People think that war protesters are against our soldiers because the right wing echo chamber--FoxNews, MSNBC et al--is telling them so every day. After a while, it creeps into the more established news sources. Then, like "Al Gore claimed he invented the internet" (which of course he never claimed), this goes from right-wing talking point to widespread unquestioned belief.

Nifty, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:09 PM

Just a clue:

Back in January of last year, I attended the massive demonstartion in Wsahington, D.C. against attacking Iraq. There were at least 300,000 people there. The Washingotn Post said tens of thousands. They gave as much press time to the 20 or so Bush people.

The demonstration in October 2001, the same, except this time the demonstartion didn't even make the front page but on page A-17 there it was and the same 20 Bush folks got as much press...

It's all about images and advertising and right now the hawks own the microphone, the nespapers, the television stations, ClaerChannel, the governemnt and everything else that is used to manipulate the masses.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 08:20 PM

I'm sorry -- she didn't know it because she was unwilling to look until her own personal tragedy forced her to,. The streets of San Francisco, just for one, were swarming with people holding posters that read "NOT IN MY NAME" and protesting the war. It would have taken perhaps ten seconds of her intelligent focus to see what the hell they meant.

My heart goes out to her, but if you want to know why she did not see what was there to be seen, you do not have to look far. She had no reason to reject her programming yet.

A

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 08:16 PM

Too many protestors in the '60s WERE against the soldiers. It poisoned the well -- people assume that they are against the soldiers and veterans. Some still are, it seems.

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 07:47 PM

WHY DIDN'T SHE KNOW THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE? Perhaps, as here in Albuquerque, the protestors choose to demonstrate at a military base rather than at, for example, the Federal Building where the senators and congressmen have their offices or in front of Republican Party headquarters?

Subject: RE: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: Sorcha
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 07:39 PM

My POV exactly. I do indeed support our troops, just not our policies.

Subject: BS: We're not against the soldiers.
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 06:37 PM

Something in "Fahrenheit 9/11" struck a nerve. There is a scene where Lila Lipscomb – the woman whose son was killed in Iraq – is being questioned about the attitudes and beliefs she had before her son was killed. Michael Moore asks her, "What did you think of the war protesters?" She answers, "Oh, I HATED them…but then I found out they weren't against the soldiers; they were only against the government."

(I'm paraphrasing from memory here. I saw the film when it first came out. I would love to get the exact quote but I can't find it.)

This statement made me want to beat my head against the wall and scream, "WHY DIDN'T SHE KNOW THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE?"

I think this question is of crucial importance, but I really don't know the answer. If we knew the answer, it might hold the key to getting people like Lila Lipscomb on our side BEFORE their sons are killed.

I would like to hear your thoughts (if they're not too cynical).