BS: Query: Driving in Europe

Subject: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: michaelr
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 06:39 PM

In the US, when two cars approach an intersection from opposite directions and both want to make left turns, they turn in front of each other.

I've been told that in some European countries, the rules say to turn behind (go around) each other. Can anyone verify this? I'll be driving in Ireland, Germany, and Italy.

Thanks in advance.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: MudGuard
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 07:07 PM

In Germany, we use the American system (that was changed about 15 years ago - I don't remember the exact year, but when I got my driver's licence we still had the other system ...)

Ireland? Never drove a car there, only rode my bicycle, so I can't say for sure. But there are roundabouts everywhere ;-)

Italy? Never drove a car there, only rode my bicycle. Can't really say.

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 07:12 PM

I'd advise that, since you're a stranger, it'd be best to be patient and most times let the other guy go first.

Remember in Ireland you're driving on the left, and in Germany and Italy you're driving on the right. This means that a Left hand turn involves a very different manoeuvre - in Ireland it doesn't involve crossing any carriageway, so the question doesn't really arise, but in Germany and Italy it does, since you drive on the right there.

Now if it was a Right return it'd be the other way round.

If there's a roundabout (which can be only a couple of feet across) you'd cross off-side to offside. If it's an unmarked crossroads, the UK Highway Code (which is available online) rather leaves you on your own to make the choice:

"When turning at a cross roads where an oncoming vehicle is also turning right, there is a choice of two methods -
1. Turn right side to right side keep the other vehicle on your right and turn behind it. This is generally the safest method as you have a clear view of any approaching traffic when completing your turn.
2. Left side to left side, turning in front of each other. This can block your view of oncoming vehicles, so take extra care."

Happy motoring...

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 07:30 PM

I'm just glad I didn't plan to hire a car in UK.......Them peeples is crazy!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: Leadfingers
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 07:47 PM

Sorcha - I resemble that remark !!

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: Timbo
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 08:09 PM

Further to McGrath of Harlow's very good comments. It is normal to turn behind the car unless there are road markings indicating for you to turn in front. Sometimes used at traffic lights. The bottom line is, of course, caution and be patient. We British are!

Happy motoring.

Timbo

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: jimmyt
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 08:34 PM

I have driven in Ireland Germany and Italy. The most valuable bit of information for Americans trying their hand in Left side driving is that whenever you are driving an auto, you should keep the driver's door near the midline of the road. When in Ireland or GB and you make right turns, you are turning across a lane, left turns you are not, but the concept of keeping your door side ( in England, the right side) of the car near the midline makes driving fairly easy. SOme AMericans put a not on the dashboard KEEP LEFT seems to help to remind them for a day or so til you get used to it,

I do not know any rules about turning in any of these countries, but my advice is, be alert, be courtious, don't speed in ENgland, DO NOT under any circumstances, stay in the left lane in Germany someone will run over you. WHen in Italy, remember that the drivers there are very aggressive. Give them their way.   Have a great trip I am getting ready to drive in Croatia and Slovenia in October, so I wlll report what that is like!

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: kendall
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:17 PM

Sorcha, it's easy if you pay attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:29 PM

Pay Attention? When there is all that countryside to look at???? LOL...

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: Big Tim
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 03:19 AM

You're supposed go go around, it's much safer, but nowadays hardly anyone ever does. Me, I'm scared to hire a car in the US!

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 03:55 AM

Always carry your driving licence and insurance documents with you and you MUST have a spare pair of prescription spectacles if you wear them whilst driving. You must also have a red warning triangle in your boot in case you break down. If this should happen, place the triangle about 10 metres (30ft) away from your car to warn other drivers you are there. Things that are courtesy here, are law over there. And make sure you adjust your mirrors - you'd be surprised how many people attempt to overtake in the path of a speeding Citroen just because their mirrors reflect the wrong bit of the road!

Driving in France - those guys tailgate, even if the road is perfectly clear, they want to be up your boot (trunk). I don't know about the German habits, but those I've passed on the road seemed to be a bit more courteous than the French.

If a continental driver flashes his headlights it means he is taking right of way. It is NOT a signal that he is giving way to you, as it would in Britain. Those guys do not give way, especially if they see a British numberplate.

Ireland is pretty much like Britain, except if you go over the borders, you may well be stopped (the borders we drove through in France/Belgium 2 weeks ago, weren't even manned let alone policed!). Now this is important. Do not joke with the Guarda. Do not piss those guys off. Be pleasant, polite and sociable, but do not make silly jokes. They do have a sense of humour, but their idea of a joke is to strip search every smart alec that cracks jokes about semtex in the boot. There may be a peace process in action, things may have been relaxed a lot, but there is still a small faction who refuse to stop.

Italy, I've never been to but am given to understand that the best way to drive in the towns is to shut your eyes and go. That's what everyone else seems to do. It may mean some modification to your car too, to connect the accelorator pedal directly to the horn.

Don't make the mistake of looking too much at the scenery when driving in the mountains. You'll lose concentration and end up as part of that scenery. Find an observation point, stop there and then look.

Hope this is useful to you ~ enjoy your trip!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: MudGuard
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 04:14 AM

After thinking about this a bit longer:

Italy: quite a new law (a few months old): you must have a reflective warning vest in the car - if you have to stop on the motorway you have to wear it when you leave the car. This applies for anyone leaving the car, not only the driver. Police are controlling whether you have the vest with you!
The fine for not having a vest is much higher than the price for buying such a vest.
Also, in Italy, fines for speeding are very high
Same goes for Austria (as you want to drive in Germany and Italy, I guess you are going to drive through either Switzerland or Austria - unless you are able to make your car fly ;-))

Germany: don't use a mobile phone while driving (you may use it if you use a headset so you don't have to hold the thing in your hand).

Italy/Germany: use the safety belt - you might have to pay a fine otherwise.

Btw, whereabouts in Germany are you going to be?

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 04:24 AM

Liz, Legally in Britain, if someone flashes their headlights at you it should be a warning. Unfortunately many people use it to attract attention when "giving way" to another driver...so to anyone from overseas I would say "BEWARE" flashing headlights, unless you are sure of the other drivers attention.
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 10:30 AM

Flashing your lights just says "pay attention to me and try to guess my intentions" - it can mean that the driver is giving way poltely, and more often than not that is the meaning in Elgland anyway; but sometimes it means "I'm coming through, get out of the way".

And remember in the UK, and I think in other European countries, turning on a red light is an offence, even when you don't have to cross a stream of traffic to do so - I believe in the USA it's legal. And the same goes for overtaking on the wrong side of a vehicle in most circumstances, especially on a motorway.

And in Ireland, on many older roads which look like they are wide, but the outside lanes aren't really meant for driving, it is customary to pull over and drive temporarily on the hard(ish) shoulder to allow someone in a hurry to overtake.

(There'a a lot to be said for travelling by train and bus...)

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: michaelr
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 01:59 AM

Thanks for all the replies, not that many of them actually addressed my query ;-)   It's certainly not my plan to mess with Garda!

I'm aware that when driving on the left (as I'll be in Ireland) my question would refer to a right turn, and that roundabouts void the issue. MudGuard says that Germany now uses the American system, and McGrath seems to say that in the UK you can take your pick (that's a bit scary, innit?) Still not sure what they do in Ireland and Italy.

MudGuard -- we'll be driving from Hamburg southwest toward the Rhine with a sidetrip to the Mosel, then south to Freiburg, where we'll drop off the car and take a train to Milan.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 03:45 AM

Greeks drive in the middle of the road and ignore pedestrian crossings (told to me by the locals!). An unfamiliar roundabout has been installed near the ferry jetty at Mastihari on Kos. The locals in the 3 adjacent tavernas enjoy watching people (including Brits used to driving on the left)trying to work out which way round it to go!

RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: Big Tim
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 08:43 AM

Avoid driving in Paris at all costs, the Peripherique is a killer!
Malta and Cyprus aren't so bad, they drive on the left!

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: MudGuard
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 10:50 AM

Hamburg, Rhine, Mosel, Freiburg? So you won't visit me in Munich? :-(

But have a nice and safe trip anyway, Michael!

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 11:21 AM

Offside to offside in the UK and Ireland unless road markings indicate otherwise, or it's a wide intersection where everyone else is doing it the other way - in which case go with the flow. You will probably find roundabouts more of a novelty to start with, but they do work. It's fairly universal across Europe to give way before joining them, as intuition would suggest anyway - again unless road-markings indicate other priorities.

You'd be VERY inlucky to get hassle from the Garda in Ireland. Strip searches at the border? Liz should be so lucky. And I think you can ignore most of the generalisations you're likely to hear from Liz and others about national driving characteristics. There are good and bad drivers the world over. (But in Ireland keep in mind McGrath's point about use of the nearside lane, when you're lucky enough to be on roads that have them.)

Mudguard, I'm just back from Croatia, which included 300km of driving in Italy. There was no mention of those reflective vests. Hire companies neither provide them nor advise about them and we certainly didn't ever hear that they were required. Presumably, for the moment at least, any visitor would get a fool's pardon.

(McG, it took me for ever to work out what you were talking about with that reference to "turning on" a red light! I'll be all right when I've wken up.)

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: MudGuard
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 12:18 PM

Peter, here in Germany, it was repeatedly announced in TV/Radio that these vests are compulsory (? correct word ?) in Italy. I also can receive RAI TRE (italian TV program), and there it was also mentioned repeatedly - I watch it sometimes as I try to learn a bit of Italian ...

I did not find pages in English, but here are two pages in German (maybe you can use some automatic translation like Babelfish or similar):
http://www.landesverkehrswacht.de/lvw/ratgeber/ratgeber_299.html
http://www.europaeischesverbraucherzentrum.de/UNIQ109306799718076534/doc663A.html

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 12:22 PM

Reflective vests sound rather a good idea, whether they are compulsory or not - where can I buy one?

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 01:11 PM

michaelr - Driving in Italy in great cities reminded me of the absolute chaos som 30 years ago; the worst it was in Naples. Wherever you want to go, do it firm with abundant use of your claxon, but stop short before touching another vehicle. (It seems to be the best way to rely on strong nerves; nobody seemed to consider any traffic regulations. ) But I didn't witness any accidents in town.
Important when driving on narrow mountain roads: Use always your claxon before a curve; this is to notify any driver coming the other way to slow down and use the right side. Do so if you hear a claxon, too. If the opposite horn sounds like a ship's siren, a heavy truck is coming - or an impostor in a Fiat 500.

McGrath - try your automobile club. I got mine there, and another one from the surplus of my local fire department. The best I own I got from a friend who worked at the London Underground. If you have to save your ass by a fast jump and get hooked it rips off easily.

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: Rasener
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 02:46 PM

I have driven in London, Edinburgh, Birmingham, Amsterdam, Paris, Brussels and many more cities.
The answer is, don't think about how you drive at home, just concentrate on what you are doing in the new location and do a search on google for laws and rules in each country that you intend to drive in.

An few examples of knowing what you are up against before it happens.

When I lived in Amsterdam (I don't know if it still applies now) If you were on a roundabout, you must give way to somebody coming onto the roundabout.
If somebody was crossing on a Zebra Crossing, don't stop for them, just manouvre your way round them- if you didn't you had somebody straight into your arse.
Don't argue about who has right of way with a tram, becuase you are probably in heaven.
Always give way to cyclists.

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: Rasener
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 02:51 PM

Sorry I meant to say that I don't have problems driving in any country or City.

I think the translation aspect is what causes the problems. How do I do a right turn in my country - oh yes but how should I do it here now - bang. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 07:32 PM

McGrath - you can get them at any Halfords or most motorcycle accessory shops. (Or if you steward a festival you can steal them!) I was given mine when I took up motorbiking and it's proved invaluable.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 07:35 PM

Thanks.

Sometimes things are so obviously a good idea that it's strange they have to have laws making them compulsory. Like using a seat belt, or carrying a spare pair of glasses in your car if you're shortsighted, which you have to do in Germany but not in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: MudGuard
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 08:15 PM

That it is a good idea is as obvious as the fact that the marmite is with the jam ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 08:23 PM

Be not dismayed by McGoH's pronouncement against nearside passing. On UK motorways there is no law against passing in the inside lane.
But the use of such a manouvre is greatly misunderstood!

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: Terry K
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 03:11 AM

Best tip I know for driving in Italy is to do your motorway driving at weekends because the heavy lorries are not allowed on the roads. In northern Italy the roads are made up of viaducts and tunnels, generally two-lane dual carriageways, so the absence of heavies is a real bonus.
I just had three weeks motoring down there and I didn't hear of the reflective vest thing.
The Italians have brought tailgating into an art form, you'd swear sometimes the car behind you is almost touching. Best way is to gradually slow down to a stop; they'll generally stop behind you while fervently sounding the horn. They then have to back up to get around you - a hoot!

enjoy
Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 12:30 PM

The UK Highway Code is fairly clear about overtaking on the wrong side. It's not against the law as such, but courts use it as a basis for determining whether you've been driving in a safe way. At the same time if someone is hogging the outside lanes, rather than using them just for overtaking, they are in breach of the Highway Code as well. Even so, in any accident arising from this manoeuvre, the person overtaking on the wrong side would most likely be seen as primarily responsible:

Dual carriageways

Section number 116 On a two-lane dual carriageway you should stay in the left-hand lane. Use the right-hand lane for overtaking or turning right. If you use it for overtaking move back to the left-hand lane when it is safe to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: michaelr
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 07:35 PM

MudGuard -- sorry, but Munich is a bit out of the way for me on this trip!

Wilfried -- I shall leave the clax on the whole time! ;-)

Thanks, everyone, for all the info.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: s&r
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 05:32 AM

Undertaking lanes are common in Ireland - a hard shoulder is often provided on the lefet, and slow moving vehicles will move into this to allow faster traffic to pass (I think this is usage rather than law). Loud hoots from everybody on the road usually means that someone's got married and is in a wedding car. It can also mean that your own sports team has won and you're on the way home. Signposts are not as frequent as you would hope, and in country areas a sign post may have twenty or thirty signs fixed to it.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 05:40 AM

And sometimes the numbers mean miles and sometimes kilometres. (And I've seen crossroads where the same destination is marked on signposts pointing in opposite directions. Quite accurately, but confusing.)

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: MudGuard
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 08:55 AM

And sometimes, the distance given on signs increases while you get nearer ;-)

Btw, I looked at the UK Highway Code (I wanted to know whether I misbehaved when I cycled in UK before reading it).
I found zebra crossings, pelicane crossings and toucan crossings.
Ok, I (think I) understand how they work.
I am wondering about the names. Zebra crossing (German: Zebrastreifen) is obvious - the black and white stripes.
But I do not see the connection to a toucan or a pelicane. How did these crossings come to their (unusual?) names?

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: s&r
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 11:10 AM

This gives the origin of pelican puffin and toucan crossings. They're a bit contrived, as many acronyms are.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: Grateful Ted
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 11:15 AM

Don't drive in Europe, it's full of foreigners!

Subject: RE: BS: Query: Driving in Europe
From: MudGuard
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 11:37 AM

Thanks s&r! Funny how the names for some things are created!