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Does size really matter?

GUEST,Tiny 21 Aug 04 - 04:26 AM
Georgiansilver 21 Aug 04 - 04:28 AM
Strollin' Johnny 21 Aug 04 - 04:32 AM
Nemesis 21 Aug 04 - 05:11 AM
GUEST 21 Aug 04 - 05:14 AM
Leadfingers 21 Aug 04 - 06:05 AM
GUEST,Jon 21 Aug 04 - 06:29 AM
MBSLynne 21 Aug 04 - 04:10 PM
Dani 21 Aug 04 - 06:18 PM
Ellenpoly 21 Aug 04 - 07:59 PM
Ellenpoly 21 Aug 04 - 07:59 PM
Ellenpoly 21 Aug 04 - 08:00 PM
Little Hawk 21 Aug 04 - 09:22 PM
Peace 21 Aug 04 - 09:26 PM
Bert 21 Aug 04 - 09:53 PM
GUEST,musicman 21 Aug 04 - 09:59 PM
Don Firth 21 Aug 04 - 10:15 PM
Lyrical Lady 21 Aug 04 - 10:17 PM
Peace 21 Aug 04 - 10:36 PM
The Fooles Troupe 21 Aug 04 - 10:54 PM
mg 21 Aug 04 - 11:01 PM
Shanghaiceltic 21 Aug 04 - 11:42 PM
The Fooles Troupe 22 Aug 04 - 01:41 AM
Peace 22 Aug 04 - 01:48 AM
Stilly River Sage 22 Aug 04 - 02:24 AM
Peace 22 Aug 04 - 02:29 AM
Peace 22 Aug 04 - 02:32 AM
Ellenpoly 22 Aug 04 - 04:03 AM
Georgiansilver 22 Aug 04 - 04:03 AM
The Fooles Troupe 22 Aug 04 - 05:02 AM
Stilly River Sage 22 Aug 04 - 11:05 AM
Little Hawk 22 Aug 04 - 12:17 PM
Peace 22 Aug 04 - 01:49 PM
Georgiansilver 22 Aug 04 - 02:46 PM
Peace 22 Aug 04 - 02:53 PM
Deckman 22 Aug 04 - 04:05 PM
Deckman 22 Aug 04 - 04:09 PM
GUEST 22 Aug 04 - 04:09 PM
GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River 22 Aug 04 - 04:17 PM
Georgiansilver 22 Aug 04 - 05:12 PM
Josh 22 Aug 04 - 05:51 PM
Georgiansilver 22 Aug 04 - 05:55 PM
Rabbi-Sol 22 Aug 04 - 06:08 PM
Ellenpoly 22 Aug 04 - 06:12 PM
Joe_F 22 Aug 04 - 06:12 PM
Shanghaiceltic 23 Aug 04 - 01:51 AM
The Fooles Troupe 23 Aug 04 - 03:49 AM
The Fooles Troupe 23 Aug 04 - 06:18 AM
freda underhill 23 Aug 04 - 07:31 AM
Little Hawk 23 Aug 04 - 12:39 PM
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Subject: Does size really matter?
From: GUEST,Tiny
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 04:26 AM

The male organ, i.e.


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 04:28 AM

Not really a music thread this unless of course you play tunes on yours. If you are really concerned about your problem then get therapy.


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 04:32 AM

Wrong section??


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Nemesis
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 05:11 AM

Just looking this up in my illustrated encyclopedia... erm, lots of diagrams and cross-sections of swells and knobs ... can't see "male" organ ....

.....could that be the "Swell organ" or "great organ" or "choir organ" lost in translation maybe?

Ah! Vis size question .. there's a "Tuning slide to vary length of pipe when tuning" but in fact, briefly it all seems to be about controlling air intake - thus output - by stops and knobs, and slides, grooves, flues, pipes, toe-pistons etc...

So, it's not the size of your organ that counts, it's what you do with it ie., being able to do 4 things simultaneously.


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 05:14 AM

Yes!


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 06:05 AM

Wen I was in the R A F one of my mates was quite concerned about this
problem , and a group of us spent about an hout convincing that size did NOT matter , He went away quite happy and remained so up to the moment his wall paper fell off the wall .


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 06:29 AM

LOL Leadfingers. I take it he'd tried to put the paper up straight on new plaster.


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: MBSLynne
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 04:10 PM

NO!! Though there are extremes of course......


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Dani
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 06:18 PM

Ask Bert!

Dani


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 07:59 PM

Mostly only to other men I think.


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 07:59 PM

Lots of women are that way about their beasts.


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 08:00 PM

Silly people!


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 09:22 PM

Their beasts, Ellenpoly???? That's shocking and disturbing! I had no idea that sort of thing was common in Australia.

My answer to the thread question: No. Unless it is simply too large. That could be a problem in a few cases, but not many.

Sex is mostly mentally and emotionally driven...and the physical parts work just fine when the mental and emotional parts are healthy and positive.


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 09:26 PM

I'll take an r please, Vanna. Then I'll see Dr Feud.


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Bert
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 09:53 PM

Thanks for remembering my song Dani!!!

--------------------------------------------

Here Tiz.

Size Doesn't Matter

When I was a kid, we went for ice cream
My sister had vanilla and I had a raspberry ripple, rocky road chocolate fudge sundae dream
I looked at hers and I started crying
When I saw that her ice cream was bigger than mine

But Ma said, Size Doesn't Matter
Size Doesn't Matter, Size Doesn't Matter
It's the flavor you see
Size Doesn't Matter Size Doesn't Matter
Size Doesn't Matter well it matters to me


When I went to school I tried hard to please
My sister got A's while I got mostly D's
I took my report home for Mother to see
I remembered the ice cream and what she said to me

So I said …. I tried hard you see

I started courting when I was sixteen
The girl next door was the girl of my dreams
But she got real mad and she called me a louse
When she caught me staring real hard at her blouse

She said…. If you really love me

I got a job I worked hard every day
Thinking I'd see an increase in my pay
Though every pay check I got was so small
My boss said don't worry, don't worry at all

Because…. And I'll make you VP.

The girl next door was the love of my life
She finally consented that she'd be my wife
How well I remember the night we were wed
As she raised her left eyebrow as I climbed into bed

She said… it's how you use it you see


Copyright Bert Hansell, 1996


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: GUEST,musicman
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 09:59 PM

Size does matter in a male organ.

How do you know it's a male organ?

It is like a regular organ?

It is just like a regular organ except it comes with a remote...


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 10:15 PM

Saint Mark's Episcopal Catherdral about ten blocks up the street from where I live has a Flentrop, and it is humongous!!

Clicky!!

I don't know if it's male or female.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 10:17 PM

Geez Paul...wish I had known about that remote...LOL

LL


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 10:36 PM

To address the thread title, in the event it was a serious question:

Maybe. You are the way you are, and that's that. If the matter of size IS an issue at this point in you life, why? The uterus can expand AND contract to accommodate various physiological differences in male size.

All men at one time or other wonder about their size, their shape, their 'capabilities', their 'measuring up to other men'. That is natural and normal. If you really need to know where you fit in the scheme of things, the following site will give you some idea. However, it doesn't give you the whole picture.

www.the-confident-penis.com/penis-size.html

Something that tends to be omitted in cold reports of 'dong' size is the human take on it. Women--real women, meaning those who can love and be loved--will be the first to tell you that when they are in love with a man, they are in love with character, attitude, demeanor, carriage, comportment, humour, intellect, kindness, consideration, etc. Any woman who is in love with 12" dongs will spend much of her life in pastures where horses graze. There are men who are huge. That's fact. There are men who are relatively small. That's a fact. However, the uterus is capable of contraction as well as expansion. Hell, it was built to give birth. I don't imagine too many guys are as large as a new-born baby carried to full term.

If your question is a serious one, I am quite confident you will hear the 'voices' of many women here who could explain what they look for in a man. Most of them will NOT be telling you 12". Hey, if that comes with you, it's bonus time. But that isn't the reality for most women OR men. Love has to mean more than that. And please know that you are normal to wonder and question. But, it's not normal to worry about it too much.

The following site is a hoot. Puts a few things in perspective for humans. Give it a read.

www.dribbleglass.com/articles/animal-kingdom.htm

The answer to your question is yes and no. It won't to the woman who is crazy in love with you any more than her physiology will matter to you if you return that love. I think you may see the other side of things at some point when the woman YOU love asks if her breast size matters to you, and when you get asked that question, and it may happen, what will your answer be to that? Or when she asks if she's pretty or attractive or intelligent. Hell, you love her, so breast size won't matter and you will honestly say no. Your answer to the rest will be a bloody great yes. You'll learn to work around the 'problems', and at some date in the not-too-distant future, you'll realize that you spent time worrying about something that the gal you fell in love with and who fell in love with you wasn't worried about at all.

Bruce M


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 10:54 PM

The bigger the amp, the more noise...

But then, empty vessels make more noise too...


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: mg
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 11:01 PM

great answer Brucie..except it doesn't go in the uterus.... mg


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 21 Aug 04 - 11:42 PM

It's not the size of the ship,
But the motion of the ocean.


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 01:41 AM

Ouch!


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 01:48 AM

Thanks, Mary. Thinking babies. VAGINA.


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 02:24 AM

Brucie, Mary Garvey and Robin beat me to it. You were way too far up there in your anatomy lecture. Ouch! indeed!

The brain is a sex organ, perhaps the most important one in this discussion.

And Don, if you look carefully you'll note that those pipes have lots of slits. Perhaps that helps you make up your mind about the gender of this organ?


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 02:29 AM

Thank you too, SRS. Note post of 22 Aug 04-1:48 AM.

SORRYYYYYYY.


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 02:32 AM

SRS:

Wasn't meant to be a lecture. More a talk about stuff. Sorry it came across to you in that manner. I hope the initial poster doesn't see it that way. That's who it was meant for.

BM


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 04:03 AM

Whoops! I did mean breasts, you silly Little Hawk....but I'm confused...do you think I live in Australia, or that I must have moved there to follow my particular fascination with "beasts"?

Sorry Aussie friends, just kidding. I'm living in London, where the beasts run wild in the streets. I have one on my lap, but she doesn't worry about her breasts anymore than I do.

I agree, by the by, with everything the sensible people on this thread are saying...(Brucie??? Sensible??? And where IS that goat Esmeralda in all of this??)

..xx..e


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 04:03 AM

Stilly...Yes many slits but look at them pipes!!! Male I reckon.
Best wishes.


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 05:02 AM

Very Phallic! Nearly Phall over laughing...


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 11:05 AM

Brucie, we're yanking your chain! It was a funny mistake!

I searched the images online but wasn't able to find any close-ups of the pipes to give a female spin on the organ--and obviously word-play didn't work either. Rather than engage in a complex Polemic, I'll concede the pipe organ appears to be more staff than distaff. :)

SRS


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 12:17 PM

Yeah, I thought you were in Oz for some reason, Ellenpoly. So it's London, England? Okay.


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 01:49 PM

SRS,

I was laughing about it later. In my head I knew I wanted the 'baby' thing in there, and I knew the expansion/contraction of the vagina had to be included. However, to reach the uterus, we are definitely talkin' world record.

To inject a note of dismay--because I've been serious long enough and it's making me nervous--people shrink as they get older. You guys, don't dwell on this fact any longer than you have to.


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 02:46 PM

Oh No, I'm 56 now...when does it start Brucie? Best wishes.


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 02:53 PM

I'm 56 also. It's started.


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Deckman
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 04:05 PM

This thread reminds me of the story of the new boyfriend and new girlfriend that go to bed for the first time. She looks at his member and says, "Just who do you expect to please with that tiny thing?" He looks at her and says, "ME!" Cheers, Bob


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Deckman
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 04:09 PM

"... I know, I know, I'm BAD," said Bob as he looked for his raincoat and headed out the door!


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 04:09 PM

LOL


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 04:17 PM

Does size matter????? Yer flippin right it matters!!! And I am HUGE. My dog seen me one time in a state of arowsal and flippin freaked! He would not come back in th e house for 3 days. I figger this has been a big help to me and made me so poupular with girls in this town that there aint many left that I have not made a try for, eh?


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 05:12 PM

Your dog obviously spread the news but dogs are not exactly what I would have in mind...Still whatever turns you on. You are certainly getting many "girl"dogs according to your post.
Best wishes.


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Josh
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 05:51 PM

As a young person, of twenty no less, this really bugged me for ages during my teens and I fell behind step of others. Which actually did more damage cos I didn't get the practice and early experiences they had. If you know what to do, and how to please a women, ur already there really. Size doesn't matter at all. If you can get her...happy... several times over, every night, then ur sorted. Practice Practice Practice!!!


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 05:55 PM

Well you know now Josh...and enjoy!!!! I love women to love what I do....It's a man thing...except that some men prefer to give a "Wham Bang, thank you Ma'am". Use your skills to please and you will be pleased.....need I say more??
Best wishes.


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 06:08 PM

If any of you men are too well endowed, I have a good friend who is a Mohel. He will give you a cut rate price for his services. Although the pay scale in his profession is small, the tips are often rather large. If any of you don't understand what I am saying, brucie will be glad to explain. SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 06:12 PM

LOL! Thanks Rebbe, it was worth it to come back to this post just to read yours!


..xx..e


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Joe_F
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 06:12 PM

Size, like most things, matters to some people, one way or another. I have seen more than one advertisement in search of men with small penises.

ObSongs (TTTO "Pop Goes the Weasel"):

Long and thin goes too far in
And doesn't please the ladies.
Short and thick will do the trick
And bring out proper babies.
Our Mary did it once --
Once was once too many.
Wasn't she a silly dunce?
Did it for a penny.


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 01:51 AM

'But doctor, it IS erect!'

Ladies response to a flasher 'Mmm just like a penis only much smaller'


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 03:49 AM

X-Lib-of-Cong-ISSN: 1098-7649
Forwarded-by: Gene Philips

INSTRUCTIONS:

Follow these instructions EXACTLY, and in 20 to 60 days you will have
received well over 50,000 inches of penis, all yours. This program has
remained successful because of the inadequacy and vanity of the
participants. Please continue its success by carefully adhering to the
instructions.

Welcome to the world of Mail Order Penis Enlargement! This business is a
little different from most cosmetic surgery. Your product is not tangible
and solid [sic], but rather, a service. You are in the business of
extending penii. Many small of endowment are happy to pay big bucks for
this service.
(The money made from the penis enlargement is secondary to the income which
is made from people like yourself requesting that they be included in that
list.)
1) Immediately cut off your penis at the base.
2) Cut off the head of your penis, and pack it in ice for later use.
3) Take the remaining midsection of your penis, and cut it into 5
pieces of equal length.
4) Immediately mail each piece to the first 5 names listed below
starting at number 1 through number 5.
Send penis only please (total investment = your penis).
Enclose a note with each piece stating:
"Please add my name to your mailing list."
(This is a legitimate service that you are requesting and you are
paying with your penis for this service).
5) Remove the name that appears number 1 on the list.
Move the other 9 names up one position. (Number 2 will become number 1
and number 3 will become number 2, etc.)
Place your name, address and zip code in the number 10 position.
6) Post the new letter with your name in the number 10 position into 10
(Ten) separate newsgroups.
7) Within 60 days you will receive over 50,000 inches of PENIS. Keep a
copy of this file for yourself so that you can use it again and again
whenever you need penis enlargement.
As soon as you mail out these letters you are automatically in the mail
order business and people are sending you their penis to be placed on your
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surgeon that can be found in the Yellow Pages for additional income on a
regular basis. The list will become more valuable as it grows in
size. This is a service. This is perfectly legal. If you have any
doubts, refer to Title 18, Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the postal lottery laws.

NOTE: Make sure you retain EVERY Name and Address sent to you, either on
computer or hard copy, but do not discard the names and notes they send
you. This is PROOF that you are truly providing a service and should the
AMA, FDA, or some other Government Agency question you, you can provide
them with this proof!

Remember as each post is downloaded and the instructions carefully
followed, five members will be reimbursed for their participation as a
Penis Enlarger with one inch of penis each. Your name will move up the
list geometrically so that when your name reaches the number five position
you will be receiving thousands of inches in penis.

1. Daniel J. Karnes 6394-B Tawney Bloom
Mogi Donuts, MD 21045
2. Emil T. Chuck 6394-A Tawney Bloom
Mogi Donuts, MD 21045
4. William Davenant 8295 Hiding Closet Rd
Clarkston, MI 48348
5. Peter Ruckman 14805 Rivercrest
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6. Steven Crisp 3718 Kings Point
Troy, MI 48083
7. Mark Gengler 5748 Patterson
Troy, MI 48098
8. Pat Robertson 666 God's Little Homophobe Road
Anti-Christ Hills, VA 48307
9. Fred Phelps 14-U Our Saviour of the Closet Lane
Orchard Lake, MI 48323
10. Jesse Helms 20840 Tobacco Mercenary Street
Lung Cancer Hacks., VA 48038

Dear Friend,

My name is Daniel J. Karnes. In September 1988 my life was repressed and
the bible thumpers were hounding me like you wouldn't believe. I was never
laid and my mental disability checks had run out. The only escape I had
from the pressure of failure was my Apple computer and my bible. I longed
to turn my fixation into my vocation.

This January 1989 my family and I went on a ten day cruise to the
tropics. I bought a Double-Wide Trailer with CASH in Feburary 1989. I am
currently building a Self-Worship Temple on the West Coast of Florida, with
a private S/M Dungeon with room for all of my closeted friends, and a
beautiful view of the bay from my women's shoes closet and wardrobe. I
will never be underendowed again. Today I am equipped! I have over
400,000 inches of penis (33,333 feet and 4 inches! ) to date and will
become a million-incher within 4 or 5 months. Anyone can do the same. This
penis enlargement making program works perfectly every time, 100% of the
time. I have NEVER failed to earn 50,000 inches or more whenever I wanted.
Best of all you never have to leave home except to go to your mailbox or
reconstructive surgeon.

In October 1988, I received a letter in the mail telling me how I could
earn 50,000 inches of penis or more whenever I wanted. I was naturally
very skeptical and threw the letter on the desk next to my computer. It's
funny though, when you are desparately underendowed, backed into a corner,
your mind does crazy things. I spent a frustating day looking through the
want ads for a wife who didn't need sexual fulfillment. The pickings were
sparse at best. That night I tried to unwind by booting up my Apple
computer and calling several gay bulletin boards. I read several of the
message posts and then glanced at the letter next to the computer. All at
once it came to me, I now had the key to my dreams.

I realized that with the power of the computer I could expand and enhance
this penis making formula into the most unbelievable penis enlargement
generator that has ever been created. I substituted the computer bulletion
boards in place of the post office and electronically did by computer what
others were doing 100% by mail. Now only a few letters are mailed
manually. Most of the hard work is speedily downloaded to other bulletin
boards throughout the world. If you believe that someday you deserve that
lucky break that you have waited for all your life, simply follow the easy
instructions below. Your dreams will come true.

Sincerely yours,

Daniel J. Karnes
-- Why doesn't Wenchell's
-- Serve Mogi Donuts?



About six months ago I received the enclosed post in letter form. I
ignored it. I received about five more of the same letter withn the next
two weeks. I ignored them also. Of course, I was tempted to follow
through and dreamed of making thousands of inches, but I was convinced it
was just another gimmick and could not possibly work. I was wrong! About
three weeks later I saw this same letter posted on a local bulletion board
in Montreal. I liked the idea of giving it a try with my computer. I
didn't expect much because I figured, if other people were as skeptical as
I, they wouldn't be too quick to part with their penis. But, I buy lottery
tickets weekly in my province and have nothing to show for it but ticket
stubs. This week I decided to look at this as my weekly lottery purchase.
I addressed the envelopes and mailed out one piece of my penis in each as
directed. Two weeks went by and I didn't recieve anything in the mail. The
fourth week rolled around and I couldn't believe what happened! I can't
say I received 50,000 inches, but it was definitely well over 35,000! For
the first time in all my years, I was adequately endowed. It was
great. Of course, it didn't take me long to feel inadequate again so I am
using this excellent penis enlargement opportunity once again. Follow the
instructions and get ready to enjoy.

Please send a copy of this letter along with the enclosed letter so
together we can convince people who are skeptical that it really works!

Good Luck,
-------------------------------------------------------------------
This document is an attempt at humor. Anyone who flames me will be
ignored as a humorless twit, whose indignation is without meaning.
-------------------------------------------------------------------


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 06:18 AM

Hmmmm, no more posts....

They must all be busy writing and slicing, or gone out for ice...


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 07:31 AM

size does not matter - both male and female organs adjust to fit each other when aroused. sex should be fun n relaxing - practising sex without penetration for a while enhances the ability to understand how eveything works and to use it better.


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Subject: RE: Does size really matter?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 12:39 PM

A........mazing!


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Mudcat time: 30 April 6:53 AM EDT

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