BS: We've lost a good one

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: hesperis
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 01:55 AM

Heh, I didn't care about the person asking whether I was hetero because that only proved that the person hadn't clicked on the link to the pictures yet!

Hesperis is sometimes portrayed as male and sometimes as female, so I'm not too surprised that someone might be confused. Still, they were only showing their ignorance. *Shrug*

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:14 AM

Yes, and he has responded to a post that I started in the music section and I to one he started.

So, a lot here really did a lot of pissing and moaning for nothing, it appears.

Just a lot of over-reacting and bunching of ones shorts.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:52 AM

Just to sound a note of cautious optimism, the saintly gospel singer who likes Lonnie Donegan is back among us!

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:53 PM

At this point, Shambles, blah?

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 09:07 PM

>maybe we should have a nasty thread so that nasties can comment there.<

It's been done, it didn't work.

The encouraging the reactive routine judgement of the worth of other peoples's posts and the imposition of editing action based on that judgement has not worked either......

This does not stop it from being the only game in town - nor from this single measure and the unknown number of unknown volunteers that impose it, being supported as if it did work.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: jimmyt
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 09:06 PM

Nice posts, Freda.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 05:58 PM

maybe we should have a nasty thread so that nasties can comment there.

It's been done, it didn't work.

And I'd really like to see people stop referring to what people say to us in PM's or pretty soon people are going to stop using them.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: freda underhill
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 05:55 PM

LoL!! if we all work together - we can totally undermind the...



....nasties!

freda

ps .. have a nice day!

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 05:50 PM

maybe we should have a nasty thread so that nasties can comment there.

And then people could sneak in and throw a spanner in the works by being nice... See how they liked that!

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: freda underhill
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 05:41 PM

for what its worth, in a pm from jerry i got the idea that he was toning down his mudcat connection, having a break and not being so involved. some people suffer in life and pass it one, others suffer and move on, and jerry's one of those. that song about Jerry was great, McGrath of H, and describes what a lovely man he is.

mudcat is more than a source of knowledge and entertainment - it has some great people. where is dianavan? has artbrooks been round lately?

its tough when people start inspirational or positive threads that get hijacked by people being negative. maybe we should have a nasty thread so that nasties can comment there.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 03:35 PM

I'm sorry when anyone leaves but you knbow, that is their choice and I assume they have good reason. It is, after all a web site and there are more important things in all of our lilves. I try not to offend people here and I apologize if I do. I hop on for infoprmation mostly and sometimes to have a bit of fun (see the Millard Filmore thread) I hope Jerry and anyone else who has left will reconsider and return to the fold Neil

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 03:34 PM

Blackcatter - in the battle between two wheels and four wheels, four wheels is always going to win. Trust me on this, and move out of the way next time. Nowhere is it written that fairness is a universal entitlement. The driver is wrong, but you're the one who wound up with the loss, injuries, and damage. Sorry you are having such a run of bad luck.

Jeri, I almost always agree with you. Even when I don't, I am inclined to anyway because your arguments are always even-keeled and balanced. Such consistency and stalwart dependability is rare these days.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: PoppaGator
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 03:31 PM

Blackcatter never said anything about leaving, and he hasn't. He's still posting as of Monday afternoon, both from his own PC as as "GUEST, blackcatter at work."

If he has quit posting to *this* thread and similar ones, more power to him. He's doing the intelligent thing.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 02:38 PM

It doesn't matter - Blackcatter has said he's leaving too. Good riddance to them all.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 01:07 PM

Guest Blackcatter said:

For goodness sake - this is just a stupid website!

For the sake of goodness, is a worthy cause to have a stupid website for - and a worthy cause to be stupid on - and long may it continue. But that is just my opinion.

Sadly it is not currently shared by those poster we have lost, let us hope and trust (for goodness sake) that we can give them cause and they will have cause to change their mind.....

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 04:38 AM

When vandalism wins anywhere, it matters.

If it does win, and I don't think that it has quite won here yet - we do have only ourselves to blame.

The cause is freedom. We are so constrained in just about every way from our very early years, that when we are presented with freedom - we don't really know how to use it.

Indded some vandals just choose to wreck and others (in fairness, sometimes in response to the wrecking) seem intent on throwing that freedom away by the imposition and return of the very constraints that they have been freed from.......

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 08:40 PM

Pretty rough, Blackcatter. Of course someone else could post saying "How can you complain about something like that happening in the light of people being raped and murdered in wars in other parts of the world?". And they'd be wrong.

I agree that it's a mistake to make too much of the kind of things that go wrong here, it's not the end of the world. But that doesn't mean that it's wrong to try and make things better, and try to stop them getting worse, in any place we are, including virtual places such as the Mudcat.

Losing Jerry and maybe Art Thieme definitely makes this place not such a good place, and that's a real shame. When vandalism wins anywhere, it matters.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 05:40 PM

Well, Blackcatter, you can always join us over at the Tavern. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: GUEST,Blackkcatter
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 05:39 PM

Well Hurricane Charley was annoying, losing my job was unexpected, but the car was personal.

And then I come here to enjoy myself, having learned to mostly ignore the idiot flammers yet now there's more discussion about them, than from them.

I'd suggest that someone start a rival Mudcat with all the censorship people have been asking for. If you don't like what's on the market, make it yourself, or shuddup.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 05:36 PM

Really sorry to hear that, Blackcatter...hasn't been your week, has it?

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 05:31 PM

I agree Blackcatter. This place is fantasyland compared to real life. Unfortunately for some, this is as close to real life as they can get.

Pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 05:27 PM

And I thought Leadbelly was a fountain pen.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: GUEST,Blackcatter
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 05:26 PM

For goodness sake - this is just a stupid website!

You want something real to bitch about? Here you go - I was riding my bike home yesterday afternoon from the grocery store. I was riding down one road - one I often ride on. There was traffic coming the other way and suddenly there was a car behind me. I only really noticed it, bucause it honked. I paid no attention, but it honked again. I glanced back as saw a very angry face in the drivers seat. I kept going, since I had every right to do so, and there was a curb I could not get over easily at 15 mph. The idiot laid on his horn. I no longer looked back and was grateful there was a break in the oncoming cars, so he could pass.

He did pass. Without bothering to move out of my way. his back bumper clipped my heel and pedal. At probably twice my speed. His actions flipped my bike around and I found myself flat on my back, the food in my backpark mostly ruined, my shoe ripped to shreds, my heel bleeding and the pedal missing. Luckily I wasn't hurt more or even killed. He continued to speed off. I couldn't get his # because of the shock. No one else stopped to help. Eventually I got up and limped back home. I lost $20 worth of food. My bike needs repairs and if I had health insurance, i probably would have gotten stiches.

At what point should I give a damn about nasty people on the Mudcat?

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: PoppaGator
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 04:13 PM

I try very hard *not* to spend too much time and energy perusing this BS section, but I yielded to temptation and just looked in on this thread for the first time in several days.

I am very sorry to learn that Jerry is the "good one" who quit. I believe there's a pretty good chance he'll be back sooner or later, hopefully staying up in the music section where he has so much to contribute and avoiding this morass of pettiness and gossip down here.

Let me report that I've traded some very amicable PMs both with Jerry Rasmussen *and* with Martin Gibson. MG was quite gracious and helpful; of course, we were not discussing personalities, we were talking about Martins and Gibsons (safe topics).

(Jerry was more than gracious, too, of course. Goes without saying.)

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 09:05 AM

Leadbelly was NOT a query - that's an unfounded rumor.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: fat B****rd
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 04:25 AM

Bloody Hell..what a f***ing carry on. I only popped in with a Leadbelly query a couple of years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Gervase
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 04:23 AM

Certainly makes 'em Cross!

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 03:55 AM

While climbing Mont Blanc I presume?
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 03:48 AM

Enough to make your eyes "Water man".

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 10:38 PM

Interesting to note that the same thing has been happening on another board I frequent that is about fountain pens. One would think that it would be the model of civility. One would be wrong.

Bunch of nosey Parkers there too eh? *smiles*

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 09:55 PM

Jeri said.

We are so used to expecting someone to clean up after us that we do stuff when we perhaps should know better. You know how many times I've seen a post which, under ANY circumstance, should have been deleted followed by one reply...then another...then another.

Again the concept that something should have been deleted and again this judgement of another's post. What use is being encouraged to judge the worth of something over which we have no real control? But the one who first posted and those following, did have control and I agree that the trick is to try and ensure that we are all encouraged to exert that self control and move on, rather than to judge the worth or otherwise, of each other's postings.

I feel that the judgement is less that the offending post should have been deleted, to prevent others from making it worse or whatever, and maybe not judgement at all, just an acceptance that it was simply sad that it was posted in the first place. For once it has appeared - perhaps it is just a case of accepting that whatever damage it is going to do - has already been done? And of then limiting the attention it receives and the (over) reaction to it? A friend of mine had a very annoying phrase when something went wrong and which I usually got very animated about, but it probably sums up this situation here. He would just calmly and with no inflection in his voice say - Oh dear - how sad - never mind.

Jack Charlton was/is a soccer manager who had a very down to earth, no-nonsense approach to the job. Sometimes a draw was the best his (Irish) team could resonably expect. However, relying too much on this was risky. He came up with the instruction to his team that they were always to try to score the equalising goal first!

If his team did manage to do this, sometimes the other side would not manage to score at all and as a result his team did better than just draw the game - they actually won! Perhaps that maybe the beginning of an answer?

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Wesley S
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 02:25 PM

My three year old usually gets my undivided attention. Yesterday when he threw a tantrum I ignored him. His tantrum was soon over.

Everyone is here by their own choice. If someone is upset by the posts in the BS section it's because they have made a CHOICE to be in the BS section. You can also choose NOT to be in the BS section - or any other thread that has a tone that you don't like. It's really very simple.

I think it was in that classic movie "The Karate Kid" that they pointed out that the best way to avoid a blow is to not be there. If we ignore the children that are having tantrums then they will soon end. Tantrums need an audience to be fully realized.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: saulgoldie
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 01:52 PM

I didn't read the whole thread, so I'm sorry if what I say is a little redundant. I suggest that the best way to deal with trolls, flamers, etc is to just plain ignore them. They may persist for a while, but eventually they will give up. I include them what uses the "Guest" id as well as registered catters.

Interesting to note that the same thing has been happening on another board I frequent that is about fountain pens. One would think that it would be the model of civility. One would be wrong. Perhaps it is a sign of the times, or perhaps it is just that we get access to more people through this world-wide electronic vehicle, and therefore "see" more knuckleheads.

Rambling thought: how do you handle REAL LIVE people who behave boorishly?

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 01:34 PM

Wesley S came up with the following [posted in the latest 'hug and prayer complaint thread]- it says more in a few lines than I can ever manage, in my long-winded way.

Grant our members and guests the serenity to accept the things they cannot change - the courage to change the things they can - and the wisdom to realise that this is a forum open to the public and that they have no control over the posts and ideas of others.

Jeri I know you to be well-intentioned but feel that perhaps you demonstrate well the problem by your (closure) suggeston. It is almost as if over time folk here have been brainwashed into thinking that every problem can be solved by closing, judging, deleting and generally restricting our hard fought freedoms. Some of the posts seem to blame Max for the mess we make of the freedom he has given to us, to express ourselves on his website.

The above poem is a start and yes (Kevin) it also applies to me. Accepting responsiblity for what our forum is, (the sum of all our contributions) rather than blaming each others postings for preventing it from being exactly what we may wish it to be, is at least a realistic goal. Perhaps this poem can appear in the FAQ or better still be placed on the forums as something for as all to aspire to and remember when we post?

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 01:23 PM

Shambles, I was being (mostly) ironic.

It WOULD solve the problem, but it would also remove the good stuff, too. I'd rather give that good stuff precedence. I'd rather have it be more important for me. When we loose good opportunities, whether it's by limiting what we can talk about or leaving, we make the bad more important and let it win. For some, it might work out that way, and it's OK, but I'll likely hang in until there are no more smiles to be had, no more tears, and no more little flashes of brightness.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 01:12 PM

What progress can be made by blaming people? It's over, done, and I think trying to figure out how to keep it from happening again is more important. The only conrol most of us have here is over what WE contribute, and the 'cause' you (and I) think is important is not a 'who' but a 'what'.

I will agree with Shambles a bit here. We are so used to expecting someone to clean up after us that we do stuff when we perhaps should know better. You know how many times I've seen a post which, under ANY circumstance, should have been deleted followed by one reply...then another...then another. The people who posted, I'd wager, had consciences telling them "hey - this is something you should let go," and POSTED ANYWAY! My guess is they knew the whole thread would be zapped and their bad behavior would go with it. The instigator gets blamed for all of it, but that "But MAAAA...he MADE me do it!" doesn't even work for kids most of the time. It should be pretty easy to see through here, too.

Blaming people is a wimp-out; a way of avoiding any real solutions. Then again, I don't see this sort of thing ever stopping. There are too many here who enjoy it. We, as a group, get what we deserve.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 12:53 PM

Closing the BS forum - just to see if it helps, is a bit like sawing off your leg to see if it might make walking easier.

If it does not - and there is no evidence that such drastic action will - you can hardly just stick your leg back on again and expect things to be as before.....

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 12:47 PM

I can make a suggestion that will solve all our problems and drastically reduce the nastiness and the perceived need for moderation. If the kids can't play nice, close the playground. Shut down the BS section for a while, and see if that helps.

Why do I have a horrible feeling that this (or something similar) IS going to happen?

Now I was not a fan of the BS prefix. I was not a great fan of a separate forum for this and I do not get involved in many of the threads there. However it has come to be the most vital part of the whole site.

For the simple reason that it has enabled the music forum to continue to be the interesting place that attracted most (if not all) of us here in the first place.

It functions as a safety valve, for the contributions of both members and guests. To close it even for a short period, change anything or restrict access to it, will be a terrible mistake. What is contributed there is BS and if anyone does not like to read BS - they simply do not have look there, let alone post. If it should be closed - the music forum (and the HELP forum) will again be the only place to contribute - and I doubt that it would ever recover.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 12:36 PM

I would say the "who" is very relevant. What is the point of discussing solutions if you find the cause irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 12:32 PM

" Look at this thread: pointing fingers, looking for who and what policy to blame."

'Who' is irrelevant. Blame is irrelevant. Thinking about what we're going to do about it, if anything, isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 12:31 PM

Jeri said

Keep in mind that perhaps the LAST person you want deleting stuff is somebody who says "Ooh, let me do it...I WANNA do it!"

You mean those who volunteer to do it? I will keep this in mind.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 12:29 PM

You don't need to guess at the real reason Jeri. jimmyt was very clear that it was members postings that made him leave.
As soon as that is accepted then you can move on.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 12:19 PM

I'm sure Don can take care of himself too. He never seemed to be too emotionally invested in the sparring.

Guessing at the real reason Jerry left is pretty pointless. We know it's the abusive stuff, but what abusive stuff, and by whom, and is he really that hurt, or has he simply decided this place isn't fun for him anymore? I can only speak for myself, but a couple of people who are dedicated to trying to make people feel like shit are pretty easy to ignore. It's the fan club - the ones who decide to 'fight fire with fire' that turn threads that should have gone on being about their original subject into conflagrations.

Look at this thread: pointing fingers, looking for who and what policy to blame. "It's the GUESTS fault," "It's __________'s fault," "It's Jerry's fault for being too sensitive," "It's the fault of those who, I believe, should be protecting us from ourselves." You know what? It's all of us. We get into shit-slinging matches, and the stuff splatters and the whole place stinks. Maybe once in a while, if you're tempted to get invoved, you could just duck the occasional turd and let it fall to lie on the ground, ignored.

As to moderation, should Max decide to go that way (flap, flap, oink), define exactly what you think should be deleted (Is anger abusive? Is irony abusive, if innocent bystanders may not 'get it'? Is profanity abusive?), who should do it (I really don't feel like I want to babysit a bunch of adults who should be able to 'filter' their own meanness out before sending), and figure out WHY they should want to do it, and how you're gonna force whoever's doing it to do it. Figure out what should happen when they don't. Keep in mind that perhaps the LAST person you want deleting stuff is somebody who says "Ooh, let me do it...I WANNA do it!"

I can make a suggestion that will solve all our problems and drastically reduce the nastiness and the perceived need for moderation. If the kids can't play nice, close the playground. Shut down the BS section for a while, and see if that helps.

I hope Jerry just decided to take a break. I'll miss him, but I don't blame him. I've been close enough to leaving myself not to understand, but I would miss the people and discussions I care about too much.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 11:45 AM

I don't think jimmyt was generally attacked for posting about this. I certainly only intended to share my own experience in this sort of matter, and ya know, I have been around here for quite some time. Some say I've learned a lot during that time. I know that I hope I have, though maybe not the same things folks feel I did, or should have.

For the information of newer members around here, there is a long tradition that what is said in PMs is not posted in threads, except if the person who said it wants to quote what they sent. The PM system is part of what's designed here to allow for gracious clearing up of misunderstandings and letting off steam-- where it can be hoped a momentary frustration will not boil up into a full forum blow-up. I would be very sad to see this tradition lost as a mutual expectation in the community.

IMO one of the things that had led to the atmosphere some find less than positive is a general lack of using the resources here, in the way they were designed to be used. Max's forum design lends itself, for example, to fast-moving repartee-- much faster than most message boards facilitate. A thread can easily be used like live-text interchange that is more commonly used in chat rooms. If those who most enjoy that kind of posting would use the place designed for it-- MudChat-- the BS side of the forum might gain a sense of being a place for calm, diverse discourse.

So in addition to ignoring what one finds irritating, we have many options here-- many media-- and we can use them with a little more intentionality. If one's intention is to conduct a pissing contest-- MudChat is a great place to do it. If one's intention is to explore a diverse set of experiences, attitudes, opinions, and positions-- BS threads are a fine medium. And if one wants to share and explore the music that IMO is the highest form of communication for us here-- sticking to the music side of the thread list is always an option, as are PalTalk meetings to sing with one another.

If you look at the last posts Jerry made before jimmyt says he decided he'd had enough-- it seems he did what a lot of us do from time to time-- he got stuck in the BS department. I betcha when he comes back it will be more in the music side.

Some have said that how one experiences Mudcat is a function of what one chooses to do. I would go a step further and say it's not just what we do, it's the intentionality we bring.

So I would ask-- Why are you here? Does your posting history reflect that?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Nerd
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 11:45 AM

I think all right-thinking people on this forum are sick and tired of being told that ordinary, decent people on this forum are fed up with being told they're sick and tired!

I know that I'm not, and I'm sick and tired of being told that I am!

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 11:19 AM

Peter K gets it. There are more here that do than the uptight ones realize. "Over the Top" is subjective. The top is like a line that's always moving. People have fiddrent depth perception as to how close and how far that line is to them.

I'm no Lenny Bruce, but there were those that said he was a genius and there were those that couldn't handle it.

McGrath, I've never stalked anyone on this forum. For me, it's all about being spontaneous. That goes for everyone.

As for Don Firth, I've never meant him any harm and actually have felt that he likes to stalk me and try to be someone who thinks he has to be the one who is going to have some kind of monumental effect on me. He's not. He has butted in many times to comment about what I comment on, and that's fine, but i will give him back again what I think of HIS train of thought. He is to me, just not that clever and he exudes some pretty good pompousness and snobbism. No problem. He dishes it out and he has shown that he can take it. I actually respect him for that.

Actually, I haven't sparred with him for a while and it is not something that I really give much, if any thought about. You can warn me all you want, but I am sure Don Firth can take care of himself, so don't bother.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 11:19 AM

its all abit difficult to follow. what was said that made him decide to go.

I agree nobody should be insulted, but some people get upset when you are forthright in your opinions. I think we English are a bit less respectful of political leaders than our American friends and they are very sensitive about their constitutional rights - whereas we don't seem to have taken the trouble to right down a constitution.
Its certainly easy to inflame sensibilities.

Perhaps we have to be more careful about cultural differences.

Anyway I hope your friend soon feels the nice people on mudcat are a bit too much to miss

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 10:49 AM

giving up promotes a self-fulfilling hypothesis.

"It's not all as I'd like it, so I will leave and tip the balance even further towards the trolls and problem causers."

I KNOW how hard it is to ignore the nasty posts and anonymous trolls...and even members with attitudes you deplore, but unless MAJOR changes are made, that is the only answer. I once again affirm my intention to try to increase the good and self-filter the bad. We'll see....in any case, I am here for the duration.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 10:33 AM

Well I'm just glad it wasn't Don Firth.

I'm a bit surprised at Art deciding to go just because someone else has, but if that's the way he makes his decisions, so be it.

Sorcha, no disrespect to McG's preceding verses (and I should think he was unruffled about it) but I'm afraid that Martin Gibson's post about Madonna did make me chuckle a bit. The vision of Jerry in the field with butterflies was a bit over the top, but an evocative image, all the same.

However, Martin Gibson, if you've been having a pop at Don Firth, that ain't funny, and it's got to stop.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 09:42 AM

I took it that one reason for jimmiet giving the name was in order to cut short this guessing game that was starting up, with people speculating who it was who'd had enough, and suggesting possible names. That could rapidly turn ugly.

Every now and then we get these nasty little attacks of in-fighting, sort of a feeding frenzy. Then they die away. I share bbc's hope that, when it's passed, valued friends who've had enough of it will come on back.