BS: A new level of terror

Subject: BS: A new level of terror
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 01:19 AM

I find this action extremely chilling, to use children as hostages with a threat to kill them must plumb the depths that terrorist will reach.

Child hostages


Though Russia has treated the Chechen's extremely harshly I cannot understand how the Chechen group can expect any sympathy if they carry out their threats.

Also worrying is the Russian response. Their supposed crack teams used to free hostages in the Moscow theatre ended up killing many hostages, after which the Russian Govt clammed up.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 07:47 AM

Two explosions heard

Let us hope (I dare not to say for the best under these circumstances) for an outcome better than the worst.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: GUEST,mack/misophist
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:15 AM

Child or adult, a life is a life. It's the number that's the real atrocity.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 06:45 AM

It seems that the school has been stormed now. The first news about dead and injuries look better than last time in the Moscow theatre. However, back then the first news also were much better than the final count.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 07:40 AM

Yeah Wolfgang - that's the last I've heard in NZ....

Aaarrrrggghhh.... When can we all learn to be MATES and get along together, instead of blowing the shit-bags out of each other. Mumble..

My love to the good folk of the North Ossetian town of Beslan - may your kids survive the current Hell...

Peace - Sam

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 06:05 PM

As the news trickles in - it is difficult to know what to say.

The looks on the faces of those children who survived seem to say it all....

What a mess.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 06:53 PM

Agreed Shambles. The news is beyond belief. Those images are the kind that will be inprinted on our minds forever. My heart goes out to all those poor families. Beyond words.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 09:01 PM

It has been a distaster. 400 dead out of 1000-1200 captives. The number of captives has been kept quiet it seems by the Russian Govt.

So far Putin has kept quiet, but that seems the norm for a Russian leader (Viz the Moscow Theatre, Kursk, etc)

The BBC said that the death toll could be higher as many many injured were taken to local hospitals which would be hard pressed to cope.

This will certainly harden the Russian respnse to the Chechen independance movement which has been very bloody. The UN have done nothing and both Blare and Bush have been very quiet on the actions Russian troops have taken in Chechnya.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 11:15 PM

Not a nice outcome. I wonder if they find who was behind the attack, and why they did it???? What a workd we live in...

Grumpily - Sam

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: mack/misophist
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 11:24 PM

The reason for it should be obvious, I have a feeling that Chechens will end up regreting it for a long time to come, even though the terrorists probably didn't speak for them; at least not in this instance.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 12:36 AM

What you actually have here is two groups...one with great power and one with very little power...attempting to terrorize each other into capitulation. One group is the radical Chechen fighters. The other group is the ruling civil and military powers in Russia. They both commit terrorist acts upon each other's populace. This latest terrorist act is by the Chechens. If the Russian government follows precedent it will retaliate with counter-terrorism (under a facade of "legality"...or not), and the cycle will continue.

The ordinary civilians on both sides are the ones who mostly end up paying the price for it, and it is all absolutely tragic.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: mack/misophist
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 02:16 AM

Very true, LH. But there are some things 'beyond the pale'.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 03:06 AM

They are saying that at least ten of the gang were not Chechens. Nine arab and an african.
the temp in the gymn was in the nineties and with the windows closed the humidity was stifling. The tots were denied even water and were threatened with death when they cried for a drink. Many would not have survived a third day of this anyway.
Will the terror groups see the pain this has brought to us all as a wekness that they can exploit again?
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:22 AM

There is no cause worth making war on children.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Fiolar
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:34 AM

Real brave people killing children. The scum bag who planned the whole thing will no doubt be able to sleep soundly. What in the name of all that's holy does anyone gain from this? I feel as well for the officers who had to deal with it. They were damned if they did nothing and damned when they acted, especially when the terrorist thugs started firing at the children who were running away. I wonder if the terrorists who died are enjoying Paradise? Personally I hope they are roasting in Hell.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 06:58 AM

These things will only continue if we do exactly what the twisted minds wish us to do.

That is for us and the media to speculate endlessly on the whatever the cause may be.

I fear that we have now come to the stage, where for some of the participants the violence and their own death is the only reason. This strange state of mind is then used to try and focus the world's attention on whatever (now totally discredited) cause is supposed to be the reason.

There is no cause worth making war on children

Murder, rape and destruction are always terrible crimes - the reason why criminals commit thise crimes will never justify them. Holy Wars - The War On Terrorism - Independence - Freedom -----All bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 10:49 AM

This is horrific beyond words in the same way that 9/11 was.

The current article in the NYT puts the toll at "More than 340 people, including 155 children..."

Muslim fundamentalist terrorism is casting it's long, dark shadow once again. Even if non-Chechnyan Arab terrorists actually are proved to have been among the hostage takers, as the Russian government is claiming, it won't change the face of terrorism being a Muslim fundamentalist face. The Chechnyan separatists are also fighting for a Muslim fundamentalist state.

Little Hawk, the entire Arab world is denouncing not just this despicable act, but the Muslim fundamentalist terrorist response to US and Israeli imperialist aggression in the Middle East. This isn't the way to fight. It just isn't the way to fight.

The Arab press has also pointed out that jihad warriors are ultimately responsible for the destruction of one of Islam's holiest cities, Najaf, where they intentionally entered the city and the shrine to create a stand-off between themselves and the American forces by holding an entire city and one of Islam's holiest shrines hostage.

You are right to point out that the US is not alone in it's repression of the Arab and Muslim peoples of the Middle East in the wars for oil. Russia is complicit in that war, as is Israel, Britain, France, Germany, Japan, Italy, China, and all the other major oil consuming nation players.

But this jihad terrorism simply must be stopped. Unfortunately, it is also playing right into Putin, Sharon, and Bush's hands. Those fascist leaders will all benefit in popularity at home, from the barbarism the Muslim fundamentalist terrorist keep exhibiting with their more and more desperate measures.

There is no defending any of them, but there is especially no defense of taking a school full of children and their parents hostage.

BTW, I believe the Russians couldn't be worse at dealing with these hostage crises. Incredibly, NO amubulances were at the scene. The Russian security forces hadn't established a perimeter around the grounds, apparently, as some of the terrorists are believed to have escaped. There didn't seem to be any high government or military level involvement on the scene. It was just appalling, on so many levels.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 02:22 PM

Well, of course it must be stopped, and I also condemn it. There are a number of other things that must be stopped too. To look at the problem in isolation will not help matters.

The problem with Jihad fighters is that they are looking at a problem in isolation only.

The problem with George Bush is the same.

They both see only the evil they choose to see...and in reacting to it they commit further evil.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Big Tim
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 02:22 PM

17 Mudcat posts in almost two days, don't most Americans care about dead innocent Russians?

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 03:19 PM

Some of us grieve quitely, Big Tim.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 03:20 PM

*quietly*

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 03:30 PM

does anyone have any figures on the number of iraqi children killed by US bombs and soldiers over the last year and a half? just wondering.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Big Tim
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 04:00 PM

Aye, right Carol C, heard that one before.                     

Grieve "quietly" for dead innocent Russians, but "very loudly" for dead innocent Americans.                                       

By innocent, I mean non-combatant.

The answer is in the couldn't care less absence of sympathetic posts from American Mudcatters for those non-combatant dead Russians.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 04:45 PM

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 04:47 PM

We have set up a blog for the posting of condolences for the people of Beslan Russia. If you'd care to post messages of support and sympathy please visit http://russianchildren.blogspot.com/. This came about after an American Mudcatter posted a thread asking if anyone knew of such a spot online. Relevant messages will be forwarded to the townsfolk.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 04:55 PM

Big Tim nailed it. Hallmark doesn't.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:09 PM

Please don't speak for me Big Tim. I'm one human being. I'm speaking for myself.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:16 PM

What nationality are you, Big Tim, so I can determne which broad sweeping generalizations I want to apply to you and your kind?

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:21 PM

I expect he is a human, and one who felt moved enough to comment.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:23 PM

No, GUEST. Not comment. Criticize how others experience grief.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:24 PM

Save it.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:25 PM

Save it yourself, GUEST. I'm hurting too.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 05:53 PM

This forum is following a disturbing but not new trend to equalize everything, Chechen children, Iraqi civilians, "Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists", George Bush, all countries which conduct foreign policy, it's all 'so tragic'. But you blur all distinctions and soon there is nothing useful to say.

The obvious thing to stick to is that a thousand innocent civilians were put to torture and murder by a band of (highly likely) Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists who did not even clearly get a message across. No, strike that, their message was crystal clear. George Bush wasn't there, Vladimir Putin wasn't there. In fact, I heard it on NPR that Putin said that retaliatory action would be treated as a terrorist act.

I would take issue with the title of the thread in that it is nothing new for this type of terrorist to perform this kind of act. In 1974 3 heavily armed Palestinian terrorists took over a school in northern Israel and before the school was rescued, 24 teachers and students lost their lives. As for scale, September 11 in US and the recent train bombings in Spain are equivalent. There is an implacable foe which can justify attacking within their victim's most tender and unguarded sites, with a purpose of inflicting pain and suffering.

There is a growing perception on the part of our societies that this is a new kind of war. All that terror is going to do is reinforce those primary actors to redouble their efforts to blot each other off the map. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and as Tevye says "pretty soon the world will be eyeless and toothless." But, technology has made it much more likely that these warriors of terror will get their hands on WMDs. THAT's where the new level of terror has come in. And 'W', whatever else you and I might think about him is 'on message' when he says: "That is why Iraq."

If you want to judge events from a lofty perspective and make all things equal, fine. You can equalize all wars. Napoleon with the Duke of Wellington, Churchill with Hitler, Jewish civilians with the SS, Hirohito with Roosevelt, people on buses and in trains going to school and work with Hamas and the PFLP. But you might as well lift yourself to the distance of the Voyager spacecraft and you can look back at the pretty blue marble and feel SO much better than those people who are looking at things with 'isolation' or too narrow a focus.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 06:11 PM

The hurtful truth: All terrorists of the world are Muslims (Asharq al-Awsat)

Our terrorist sons are the endproduct of our culture, Most suicide attacks worldwide in the last ten years on buses, schools, have been done by Muslims. (Abdulrahman al Rasched, from Al Arabija TV)

Even the enemies of Islam couldn't have done such a big damage as the sons of Islam have by their stupidity, their errors, and their wrong view of the nature of this era (Al Ahram)

One way to stop terrorist attacks is if the culture from which they come withdraws any support. Very slowly these days, I see that starting in the Muslim world. That's a ray of hope in the disaster.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 06:13 PM

I work with guys and gals who are silent at accident scenes because their senses are shocked. They then respond to other scenes like that because someone has to. When you see grown men and women working a scene with professionalism and calm, it's very easy to assume we don't care. Visit us back at the hall when we have done all we can do and it hasn't been enough to save a mother and father the most terrible anguish they'll ever know. You come dry our tears and tell us we don't care.

CarolC does not deserve this particular shit and abuse. The woman--whom I have never met and likely never will meet, and with whom I have had more arguments than anyone else on the 'cat, is a good human being, and to suggest she doesn't care is an egregious wrong. People mourn in manners of their own choosing. Allow her the same rights you accord yourselves.

Sorry to speak 'for' you Carol; we'll likely be back to arguing in a week or two, but now ain't the time.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 10:54 PM

I don't understand the concept of people judging other people by their silence. Expressing grief, as CarolC said, is very individualistic.

The person who prays the loudest is not necessarily the most spiritual. The person(s) to whom expressing grief is easy is not necessarily the one who is feeling it the most.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 11:11 PM

Big Tim - I have friends there, and have spent the last days corresponding with them rather than posting here. Is that okay with you?

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: sledge
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 12:49 AM

After watching film after film of those Families searching for their children it becomes overwhelming, the pain, anguish and grief etched in every line on every face is such that trying to find the right words, even for a short message becomes a struggle.

My thoughts are with them night and day.

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: DonMeixner
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 01:54 AM

Tim,

I guess I just can't figure out a way to answer you on this. It just doesn't matter what I say. You and others will say it's too little or too late or too typically American.

Since you don't know me you don't know what I feel. Or how this has shocked my family. You don't know what American Churches will be saying today when their congregations file in. You don't know how American ethnic communities will join together and send what ever help is needed to the afflicted.

I can post a rant here about how awful things are. About how evil has raised it's head and Americans are doing nothing to help fight the villians. But beyond a great group revelation of shock and shame it will be a hollow rant with no real power to resolve anything.

Like most people around the world you only know Americans by our governmental process and our military presence and the way we are portrayed in your press and on your TV. You only know the Americans who go tourist around the world and spend American dollars and behave baddly like... tourists.

You don't know the Americans who stay at home and give blood or clothes or send medical supplies to Estonia or computers to South African Schools. You never met my family who annually sends a few thousand dollars to The Heiffer Project. Go ahead and whine that thats typically American to send money. But it is money we have and there are many in need. If I gave $100.00 to a Montagnard family it would be taken away by their headman in the village or the larger government in power. But if I give that money to Heiffer that Monagnard Family gets chickens and seed and tools.

But since you don't know me or I you I guess I have to expect insults
because you are as frustrated as I and you know just how powerless we are to do anything against such inhumane actions by terrorists against so helpless a victim.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Big Tim
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 04:06 AM

Carol C, Don: no personal criticism were made by me.

I'm just amazed that after 3 days, there has still been only 39 posts.
If this had happened in America, cyberspace would be log-jammed by this time. (btw, I'm an Irish citizen).

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 05:41 AM

There is no lack of compassion in US or otherMudcat nationals, but there is a pattern in how disasters lead to threads being started and contributed to.
See how the thread on the Bali massacre began two days after the event.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 06:08 AM

The reaction is different and probably understandable and it is not really helpful to critise our reactions to these things. We all need to focus together and save our blame on those who cause all this, to try and ensure that it is prevented. We need the time to take it all in.

We are probably and sadly just getting used to such horror. Part of us now expects this terror, sacrifice and unfeeling inhumanity to increase and we try and protect part of ourself from the true extent of our feelings of care and despair.

And whatever we say or do - just seems more and more futile in the face of it.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 11:28 AM

Well nice going, Big Tim. You've made this a thread about Americans insead of the innocent Russian children and their stricken families whom this thread is supposed to be about. But seeing as how you're Irish, I guess you must have been drunk when you made that post.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 12:10 PM

Congratulations, Carol, for stooping to a new low. What good is it to continue the mud-slinging stereotypes? Have any of you followed the link I put up?

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 12:16 PM

What good is it to continue the mud-slinging stereotypes?

It is to show how stupid they are, katlaughing. I would have thought you would have the subtlety to see that for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: DonMeixner
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 12:21 PM

Bye

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 01:26 PM

Hardly, Carol, it just perpetuates the crap. You've been here long enough to know we've had whole threads about stereotyping and does no good to engage in mutual mud-slinging.

I repeat, have any of you signed the condolences blog?

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Big Tim
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 01:31 PM

Thanks Carol, keep it up, you're doing great.               

Begorrah, having sobered up, dusted down my shamrocks,decommissioned my weapons of mass destruction: I'd like to suggest that someone start a new thread, preferably with the word "Beslan" in the title, or perhaps, "Russian massacre"', which might be more recognisable in more insular necks of woods.

btw, why do Americans think it's ok for them to have have weapons of mass destruction and not other countries,like Iran for example? Too many fundamentalists?

Back to the booze now.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 03:13 PM

No Tim, you should have started a thread about responses to disasters.

This is not the place for such a discussion. I am sorry I joined in with it.

Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 03:13 PM

A significant percentage of my own ancestry is Irish, katlaughing, and I know what a pile of crap that stereotype is, just as I know what a pile of crap the stereotype is that Big Tim is promoting.

We're all individuals, Big Tim. I get attacked just as often for criticizing the US as I do for being a US citizen. It gets a bit old after a while. If you're so concerned with the tragedy in Russia, why not just stick to the subject instead of dealing with your anger towards the terrorists by beating up Americans? Or maybe you don't really care about the innocent Russian children and their parents. Maybe you just enjoy beating up Americans and this was a convenient place for you to do it.

As far as my response to this thragedy, I'll deal with it in my own way, and in my own time.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 12:22 AM

Well, some of us tried to speak to the issues raised by the thread, but I guess the little who's beating their breast harder squabble led to thread meltdown

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 12:58 AM

katlaughing is obviously irony impaired. This despite there being no lack of irony throughout this thread.

I think the observation regarding the limited response on the part of the Americans (who can fill a thread to 100+ posts in about 10 minutes if they perceive the subject matter to be of great interest to them, or to the defense of their beloved Mudcat) to the massacre is, well...ironic.

Maybe it's all the distractions surrounding the complaints by forum members flaming and trolling. Or the RNC. Or the weather. Or the Mother of all BS...

Self-absorbed and distracted is what I think it is. If it doesn't effect Americans, we really don't pay catastrophic events in other parts of the world much attention. Sure our media might follow it for a bit, or give it nauseating celebrity coverage like the Diana funeral. But actual attention and concern and outpourings of support financially? Not from the Americans, I'm guessing.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 01:03 AM

For all the shit that is the American government, the American people are the equals of any other people on this planet when it comes to compassion. And yes, you are guessing--wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 05:25 AM

I started this thread because I was shocked and horrified by the thought of so many women mand and of course children being held hostage in a situation which was never likely to have a good outcome due to the nature of Russian military response in such situations.

The events of last Friday proved what I felt and only served to increase my revulsion at the people who carried this out and the attempts by the Russians yet again to cover up and mislead.

The reports I have read have increased the horror of it all as the families of the victims are seemingly getting little help, some are still trying to find missing relatives and the injured are in hospitals where medical aid is stretched to the limits.

Then when I see people using the thread to start a rather tasteless little flaming/trolling game I feel like giving up the ghost.

I doubt any sound and well thought out views from MC members on the situation will have any real affect, but you never know, ripples spread quickly across a calm pond. If the pond is disturbed then the ripples go nowhere.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Big Tim
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 10:26 AM

If an opinion can't be expressed without the accusation of "flaming", Mudcat may as well pack it in.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 11:04 AM

Looks like Big Tim isn't the only one who chooses to use this thread only as an opportunity to gratuitously beat up Americans. None of you who are using this thread that way really could give a shit about the dead kids in Russia.

Here's what I have to say about what happened in Russia at this point in time. I have very mixed emotions about this situation. I am horrified about what has happened to so many innocent children and, being a parent myself, I am heartbroken for the parents of those children. And I am very saddened for all of the adults killed and for the whole community and the gaping wound that they will have to live with, probably for the rest of their lives.

But I am also disturbed because I know that my own government has probably contrbuted to creating the climate that made this situation not only possible, but highly likely (no negotiations... you're either fer us or agin' us). And I am horrified by the way the government of Russia has been dealing with the situation in Chechnya. And I am horrified by the conditions that the Chechens have to live under on a daily basis. I am very afraid for the people in Chechnya who did not have any part in this horrible massacre of innocents in Russia. I am afraid for the people in Russia who will surely be the targets of future terrorist attacks.

I am horrified and afraid because I know my own country is going to continue to contribute to the climate of the powerful using preemption in order to get away with whatever the hell they want (usually in service to power and money) at the expense of millions of innocent people like those children in Russia, and the children of Chechnya. And the children of Iraq. And the children of Israel and the Palestinian Occupied Territories. And the children of Afghanistan. And so on. And I am horrified because I don't think it matters who gets elected president here in the US this time around. I think either way, my government is going to continue to contribute to this madness untill a lot more innocent people get killed. And the rest of the world (at least those parts of the world that are governed by the power hungry and the greedy) will take its cue from my government.

So go suck a lemon all of you sanctimonious, self-satisfied, insular people like Big Tim and the rest of you who are participating in his little feeding frenzy in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 01:20 PM

Not to be a dick or anything, but calling the hostages "Russian" because they live in the Russian Federation would be like calling the Chechen hostage-takers "Russian" for the same reason. It's inaccurate and misleading. As it happened in North Ossetia, I imagine that most of the hostages were probably ethnic Ossetes, which is important. The Ossetes are relative newcomers to the Caucasus, mainly Christian, and, most importantly, tend to be fervently anti-Chechen/Ingush and long-time Russian/Cossack collaborators. In 1992, for instance, Osset militias (with tacit and sometimes outright support from the Russian military) killed hundreds of Ingush, and "ethnically cleansed" some 31,000 from North Ossetia, from Ingush land that had been awarded to North Ossetia after Stalin deported the entire Ingush nation to Central Asia in the '40s. They even took Ingush hostages, heh. Not that this excuses what the hostage-takers did in Beslan, but knowing at least part of the background of the conflict is an important part of understanding the motivations of the actors in the current crisis.

And hostage-taking isn't a "new level of terror," in the Caucasus, or elsewhere, for that matter. Ambushing, raiding and hostage-taking has been the way Chechens fight for... probably most of the unknown thousands of years they've lived there. The television cameras, suicidal zeal, and bomb-festooned gymnasiums are new, but the technique is as old as warfare. Just in the last few days, gangs of Osset men have taken Ingush hostages in retaliation for Beslan. Surprise, surprise.

Do the Chechen/Ingush/Arab/whatever hostage-takers want to expand the conflict to the rest of the North Caucasus? Of course. The Ossetes retaliate against the Ingush and Chechens. Russia "cracks down" on North Caucasians in general, and just maybe the assorted Circassians and Daghestanis become radicalised, and boom, Russia has 10 Chechnyas. Prob'ly won't happen that way, but Basayev can dream, can't he? I mean, Russian actions have begun radicalising the fucking Ingush. They didn't have a radical bone in their collective body before all this. Add to all this Russia's support of separatists in Georgia's South Ossetia (currently under attack from American-trained Georgian forces), throw in some Cossacks, and anyone else you can imagine in the area, and it really gets interesting.

And, of course, this gets Chechnya in the news, at least for a few days. When was the last time you thought about Chechnya? When? Bullshit. I was the Moscow theater raid, and you know it. That time you accidentally ordered a "12 piece bucket of Chechen" at KFC doesn't fucking count. Well over 100,000 (fairly conservative estimate) Chechen civilians have been killed or "disappeared" by Russians over the past 15 years, many thousands of them children. Where is the outrage for them? "Russia's 9/11" my ass. Russia has already had a thousand 9/11s... in Chechnya, carried out by Russians.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Big Tim
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 04:34 PM

"Methinks the lady doth protest too much".

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 04:59 PM

It wouldn't really matter what I say, Big Tim. You're having your fun and that's all that counts.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 01:52 AM

As I see it the new level of terror is that we seem to be seeing willing suicide bombers being used in conflicts and prepared to die for causes that may not 'directly' affect them.

The truth is rather slow in coming out and it would rather suit the Russian authorities to be able to portray this as NOT being a 'local' action - so we we rather have to 'wait and see'. However, the evidence of the numbers involved and the various disputes between them and lack of control that seem to have contributed to the bloody mess - does seem to indicate a wide range of participants.

However, it may just turn out that this chaos was simply an inevitable result of the numbers involved - of both terrorists and of those kidnapped. And also the number and nature of those arround the scene who were involved in trying to bring it to a (peaceful) end?

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 11:03 AM

This was a terrible dissaster.   It is hard to know the facts as to what happened.   One story I heard on the Druge Report radio show was that the Russians negotiated with the terrorists to allow some Russians to come in and remove the dead bodies and sick children (before the attack)   This was agreed to by the terrorists.   When the Russians came in to remove the bodies as agreed upon they were shot and killed.    After that the terrorists blew up parts of the gym where the children were being kept and shot anyone trying to run away after the explosions.

I have no way of knowing if this is true of not.   If it is, it is the lowest form of humanity and the Russians had no choice than to do what they did and attempt a rescue.

Terrorism will not stop until the MUSLIM community condems terrorism.   Unfortunately, too many of them still embrace it.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 12:30 PM

Too true, Larry K. See the Al Queda Training Manual. And everyone sleep tight.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Kim C
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 03:38 PM

Perhaps more people might have opened this thread in the beginning if the title had indicated what it was actually about.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: DougR
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 03:53 PM

Since when is the amount of grief the American people feel for the poor people of Russia, who lost loved ones in that horrific terrorist event in Russia, measured by the number of posts in a Mudcat thread?

That's pretty sick, Big Tim, even for a Irishman who obviously hates Americans.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: LilyFestre
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 04:23 PM

Frankly, the entire situation is unspeakable...what exactly is there to say? The only word that comes to mind is WHY? Doesn't that stand world round? I don't think nationality plays a hand here.

Peace to those who died, peace to those who were left behind and peace to the rest of you folks as well.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 05:27 PM

The guest of 04 Sep 04 - 10:49 AM (I can see why anyone with such views would want to preserve his/her anonymity) said, among much other rubbish, that this isn't the way to fight. Maybe after reading Lepus Rex's post, that guest could say what would be the correct way for the more fanatical elements of a brutalised population to respond, after seeing some 45,000 of their children slaughtered.

Desperate people do desperate things, far beyond the comprehension of those of us who are not desperate. It's wrong, but it happens. In fact it's predictable. And it won't ever be stopped by main force.

Big Tim, what were you doing for those first two days, that prevented you from posting at Mudcat? You could have taken the heat out of the spat you stirred up, simply by re-reading your first post and then apologising.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 05:14 PM

Is it possible that a pre-emptive strike in Iraq gave permission to the Chechans to do their dastardly deeds? If so, what does that say about the safety from terrorism by capturing Saddam?

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 06:06 AM

That cowardly and barbarian terrorist act is some days away so I think we can now discuss here the reaction of Mudcatters. I agree with Big Tim's observation (few posts) but I disagree with the reasons for that. (BTW, to answer a general observation with a single case response is based upon a complete misunderstanding of the nature of a general observation)

The reason for the comparably few posts I see is that there was no obvious angle by which the USA or Bush could be blamed. I never have seen here a shortage of American catters' outrage if the victims have been foreigners (Afghanistan, Iraq) but the blame was on the Bush government. The majority of catters (and of American catters) loves to blame Bush and his government for all possible evils. Now, I do agree that this blame is well merited in many fields. Bush has worked hard to make it easy to often see the blame with him.

But that bias of some catters to see all evil in Bush goes a bit far in some instances. Not everything that goes wrong on this world can be blamed on the present American government. The let's-blame-Bush bias of the majority of 'political' catters makes that they either do not contributed to threads in which the obvious blame for an evil lies not with the American government (or, for a change other Western governments) but with a group, nation, person from other parts of the world, or try as quickly as possible to turn the thread into a thread about their favourite topic.

Look at this thread how quickly the name Bush appeared, look at the Bali thread linked to above, how quickly the name Bush appeared. There was a thread about Venezuela in which a catter thought it was appropriate to mention the last American elections. In a thread about Arafat's purported embezzlement of money it took just five or six posts until Bush was mentioned.

Those catters are in that respect exactly like the politicians they mostly dispise: If a theme comes up they consider either embarrassing or far from what they prefer to discuss, then they mutate to spin doctors telling others what should be discussed. Frank's post is a prime example but by far not the only example.

So in my eyes the unsuitability (but see Frank's spin for a creative counterexmple) of this crime for blaming Bush is the true reason for the observation made by Big Tim.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 10:18 AM

Bush gets stick because many of the problems around the world either result from or are exacerbated by his abrasive style of leadership. Both within the US and on the world stage he is more divisive than any senior statesman in my lifetime. He, or at any rate he and his administration, are entirely responsible for America being more widely loathed around the world than at any time in its history. Hard to credit that just three years ago the world was united in sympathy and support for the US.

If a particular case cannot answer a generalisation, Wolfgang, then it is plainly absurd to infer anything about "most Americans" from the particular circumstance that 17 people posted to a public forum in two days. We might just as usefully extrapolate from Big Tim's own belated contribution that most Irish people are also indifferent to the tragic fate of innocent Russians.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 12:44 PM

Wolfgang, in your 09 Sep 04 - 06:06 AM post, you are engaging in the exact same type of thinking that you criticize some others of us for engaging in. You're putting your own interpretation on your empirical observations. And you state this interpretation as fact. Why is it that you feel free to point out when others do it, but you feel perfectly justified in doing it yourself?

I'm not all Americans, but I am one American. Since I fall into the group that is being attacked, I feel that I was in a postition to state my reason for not having posted to this thread. When I did so, my sincerity was called into question. I can't speak for any other US Americans, but until I did finally post my thoughts and feelings on this subject, they were too jumbled up, confused, and grief and horror stricken for me to be able to make a coherent post. Had there been anyone who posted to this thread saying they had been personally effected by the tragragedy, or even if I thought someone from Russia would be likely to read this thread, I would have posted my condolences here immediately.

And of the few posts that do mention Bush, only one of them can be positively verified just from looking at the post, that it comes from a US American. The first mention of Bush came from and ex-pat from the UK living, I believe, in China, another is from an anonymous GUEST, and one is from a Canadian. So it hardly follows that it's the US Americans who only post to threads like this if they can bash Bush. Really, Wolfgang, your thought processes are getting very sloppy in your declining years.

As I said to Big Tim, were all individuals. Please don't attempt to speak for us. You're not our Daddy.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 01:40 PM

Back to the subject, someone on NPR made some similar observations to those made above by Lepus Rex, that we are dealing with complex ethnic vendettas. The final comments were that if we get into a tit-for-tat escalation we are looking at increasing disasters similar to what happened in the Balkans.

As to the 'new level of terror' I find this title objectionable because we have had terror of this kind and worse not only throughout the previous century but in the recent past, unless you've forgotten the tens of thousands of Rwandans cut down in their churches with machetes, Hindus executed by Muslims and Muslims executed by Hindus, Bosnians killed en masse by Serbs. I'll never forget an English peacekeeper's voice as he described coming upon a Bosnian family killed in their own home by Croatians. We have a situation of ethnic cleansing in Sudan of longstanding.

To paraphrase Hamlet, we are at war with the evil angels of our own nature. It can easily get much worse, and a new level of terror, a truly new level, might be just around the corner.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 02:36 PM

I think IF we are seeing a 'bank' of mercenary suicide bombers being farmed-out to die for any cause anywhere - we could indeed be seeing a 'new level of terror'. However, there is no reason to think that it will not move to an even higher level of terror.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 03:17 PM

>>To paraphrase Hamlet, we are at war with the evil angels of our own nature. <<

To quote Jape Waltzer, "[We] may win a battle, but the war was lost long ago.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Cluin
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 01:18 PM

Well, If I Were the Evil Overlord...

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 02:53 PM

Carol,

as so often when you try to criticise one of my posts I see no meaningful relation between what I have posted and meant and what you post. You are full of wrong assumptions which prevent your understanding what I have written.

Please don't attempt to speak for us. (Carol)

Huh? I have made not the tiniest attempt to do that. The only time I have used the word 'we/our' was in 'I think we can now discuss...'. Everywhere else I have used 'I' with several qualifications. The central point, my interpretation of the observation 'few posts' was in a sentence with these words: The reason....I see. I fail to see how I could have been any clearer than that for the reader to understand that this is an interpretation, my interpretation.

So it hardly follows that it's the US Americans who only post to threads like this if they can bash Bush. (Carol)

Complete rubbish, I have neither written nor meant that.

I have explicitly agreed with this part of Big Tim's observation: few posts. I have even written that down so everybody could read and digest in which respect I agree with Big Tim. Had I agreed with Big Tim's observation/interpretation of few posts by Americans I would have written few posts by Americans. My point and my interpretation of why I think there were few posts (in general) were directed at Mudcatters in general and not only at American or US American Mudcatters. Read again my sentence:

The majority of catters (and of American catters) loves to blame Bush and his government for all possible evils.

I fail to understand how anybody can understand this sentence other than that I see no difference here (other than Big Tim does) between American and other Mudcatters. All other sentences do not single out or even mention American catters except when I with deliberation said that I never have seen here a shortage of American catters' outrage if the victims have been foreigners<(i>. I completely fail to see how this sentence can be understood as anything else but a disagreement with Big Tim and a defense of American Mudcatters against his interpretation that they only care about American victims.

The other parts of your post too are far off the mark.

You have a vivid fantasy, Carol, use it when you look at clouds or in other pastimes, but use another part of your brain when you read my posts.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 03:09 PM

Big Tim's entire point was directed at "Americans", Wolfgang. You said you agree with what he said, but for different reasons. If there is a misunderstanding, and I didn't interpret your meaning as you intended, is it entirely beyond your capabilities to understand why?

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 03:12 PM

Carol,

as so often when you try to criticise one of my posts I see no meaningful relation between what I have posted and meant and what you post. You are full of wrong assumptions which prevent your understanding what I have written.

Please don't attempt to speak for us. (Carol)

Huh? I have made not the tiniest attempt to do that. The only time I have used the word 'we/our' was in 'I think we can now discuss...'. Everywhere else I have used 'I' with several qualifications. The central point, my interpretation of the observation 'few posts' was in a sentence with these words: The reason....I see. I fail to see how I could have been any clearer than that for the reader to understand that this is an interpretation, my interpretation.

So it hardly follows that it's the US Americans who only post to threads like this if they can bash Bush. (Carol)

Complete rubbish, I have neither written nor meant that.

I have explicitly agreed with this part of Big Tim's observation: few posts. I have even written that down so everybody could read and digest in which respect I agree with Big Tim. Had I agreed with Big Tim's observation/interpretation of few posts by Americans I would have written few posts by Americans. My point and my interpretation of why I think there were few posts (in general) were directed at Mudcatters in general and not only at American or US American Mudcatters. Read again my sentence:

The majority of catters (and of American catters) loves to blame Bush and his government for all possible evils.

I fail to understand how anybody can understand this sentence other than that I see no difference here (other than Big Tim does) between American and other Mudcatters. All other sentences do not single out or even mention American catters except when I with deliberation said that I never have seen here a shortage of American catters' outrage if the victims have been foreigners<(i>. I completely fail to see how this sentence can be understood as anything else but a disagreement with Big Tim and a defense of American Mudcatters against his interpretation that they only care about American victims.

The other parts of your post too are far off the mark.

You have a vivid fantasy, Carol, use it when you look at clouds or in other pastimes, but use another part of your brain when you read my posts.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 03:14 PM

..and now you're repeating yourself. Time to check into a spa for a nice relaxing vacation I think, Wolfgang.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 03:57 PM

You said you agree with what he said (Carol)

No, I didn't, Carol, you are misrepresenting both my words and my point.

I agree with Big Tim's observation (few posts)

This should not be difficult to understand. As to the reasons why you misrepresent what I post, you are the expert. I can't look into your head so I do not know what your motives or deficits are.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 04:06 PM

You said you agree with what he said (Carol)

No, I didn't, Carol, you are misrepresenting both my words and my point.

I agree with Big Tim's observation (few posts)

This should not be difficult to understand. As to the reasons why you misrepresent what I post, you are the expert. I can't look into your head so I do not know what your motives or deficits are.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 05:01 PM

17 Mudcat posts in almost two days, don't most Americans care about dead innocent Russians?

--Big Tim

I may have a deficit in my head, Wolfgang, but that's hardly the reason I misunderstood your post.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 05:04 PM

the trouble is that it could get much worse.

apparently the Russians ordered increased security for their nuclear reactors.
you know where this is going.
if these terrorists succeed in destabilizing the region - its far more worrisome than whats happening in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 05:26 PM

Carol,

I had a completely different point from Big Tim's.
His point is easy to understand.
His point you have quoted is not my is not my point.
I had made that explicit in my first post and in my later posts.

You may attack Big Tim for what he has posted.
You may attack me for what I have posted.

But I dislike being attacked for things Big Tim has said with which I do not agree.
My agreement with Big Tim on the point you have quoted exists only in your head.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: A new level of terror
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 05:33 PM

I'm not attacking you, Wolfgang. I'm trying to help you understand that my mistake was an honest one.