BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?

Subject: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: red_clay
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 10:31 PM

Who was it who said "Politics make strange bedfellows." ?
Looks like the "Manchurian Candidate" for real, except this is the
Vietnamese candidate. I checked out the cpusa website.
I once had fantasies about the human race conquering disease
and going to the stars; my prediction now? Our whole civilization
is going to implode as wild-eyed zealots of every sort carry all rational
persons to oblivion with them. I grieve for my grandchildren.
sincerely,
tarheel and red_clay




Subject: Subject: Guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
The Communist Party of The United States of America, CPUSA, is publicly supporting the election of John Kerry.

No, this is not a typo...you read it correctly. The CPUSA has made available on its Web site, www.cpusa.org, an advertisement entitled Top Ten Reasons To Defeat Bush. This advertisement can be downloaded. The communist party urges readers to place this ad in local newspapers throughout the country to defeat President Bush.

Remarkably, the "Top Ten Reasons" of the Communist party are identical to those of the Democratic party; out-sourcing, homosexual rights, abortion and the like.

At first, it was thought "this was only a coincidence." The Democratic party of the United States couldn't be in lock step with the Marxists! So, the originator of this email wrote to a spokesman of the CPUSA in Georgia and here is part of the spokesman's letter: "The CPUSA supports the John Kerry campaign with donations and volunteer effort. We believe that defeating George Bush is the single most important issue this November"

**Next, it was discovered that one of Kerry's campaign themes is "Let America be America Again." This slogan was borrowed from a Communist poet, Langston Hughes. This is not common knowledge to the average American. "Let America be America Again" sounds good but is a rambling, gloomy poem.

Interestingly, another poem by Langston goes as follows; "Goodbye, Christ Jesus, Lord, God, Jehovah, Beat it on away from here now. Make way for a new guy with no religion at all -- A real guy named Marx, & gt; communist, Lenin, Peasant, Stalin, Worker, ME -- I said, ME!"

Then, if this was not convincing enough that the Democratic party has lost it, a third discovery!

**A Vietnam vet group took a trip to Communist Hanoi to investigate a report that John Kerry was in the "Hanoi! Hall of Fame." Yes, there is a museum in Hanoi with a section dedicated to foreign activists who help defeat the United States Military in Vietnam. Of course, you would expect Jane Fonda's picture to be there. But, alas, there is John Kerry's picture shaking the hand of a communist official.

Never has there been such a tragedy! Never has there been such a threat to America! Has the Democratic party has been taken over by the far, far left?

It's not only the communists, but the homosexual activists who are appalled that George Bush is married to a woman! They! are enraged that the President wants a constitutional amendment to protect traditional marriage between a man and woman.

Then we have the ACLU running to a federal activist judge with every piece of legislation that doesn't fit into their leftist agenda. They support every Democratic socialist whim. The removal of the Ten Commandments is their top priority!

Don't trust this message for the truth -- visit the CPUSA website at www.cpusa.org -- read the articles, and then decide for yourself. So...who will you vote for during the next Presidential Election? This message needs to be seen by your friends...send it to them!

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 10:43 PM

And I heard today that the Mullocracy in Iran is supporting GW Bush. It's a funny old world, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 10:44 PM

Communism does not like Fascism, which may be why Communists want George W Bush out of the White House. I feel the same.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 10:46 PM

...I have to say, when presented with these kinds of choices... Mullahs of Iran, vs. Communists... well, I just can't make up my mind!

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 10:47 PM

These American Commies ain't what they used to be back in Joe McCartrhy's day... Now a days they'll do anything for money, including taking a big check from the RNC to publicly back Kerry...

Well, at least Charles Manson turned the RNC down...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 10:47 PM

Here's that story... Heh.

Iran endorses Bush for president

Associated Press
October 20, 2004

TEHRAN, Iran -- The head of Iran's security council said Tuesday that the re-election of President Bush was in Tehran's best interests, despite the administration's "axis of evil" label, accusations that Iran harbors al-Qaida terrorists and threats of sanctions for the country's nuclear ambitions.

Historically, Democrats have harmed Iran more than Republicans, said Hasan Rowhani, head of the Supreme National Security Council, Iran's top security decision-making body.

"We haven't seen anything good from Democrats," Rowhani told state-run television in remarks that, for the first time in decades, saw Iran openly supporting one U.S. presidential candidate over another.

Though Iran generally does not publicly wade into U.S. presidential politics, it has a history of preferring Republicans over Democrats, who tend to press human rights issues.

"We do not desire to see Democrats take over," Rowhani said when asked whether Iran was supporting Democratic Sen. John Kerry against Bush.

"It's not an endorsement we'll be accepting anytime soon," Bush campaign spokesman Scott Stanzel said in response. "Iran should stop its pursuit of nuclear weapons, and if they continue in the direction they are going, then we will have to look at what additional action may need to be taken, including looking to the U.N. Security Council."


---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 10:52 PM

"...it has a history of preferring Republicans over Democrats, who tend to press human rights issues."

Yep. Them Dems are bad guys, all right.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 10:56 PM

Well, the Mullahs will do anything for money. Ask an Iranian.

d

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 11:08 PM

Oh, fuck. Don't turn this into another one of your idiotic anti-Iran threads, dianavan. Yeah, your daughter is shacked up with a Parsee, he's a great guy, that's cool. But you still don't know shit about Iran. As I said before, educate your damned self. It's fucking easy.

Anyways, Kerry should really be using this shit... Putin and Iran. Great stuff.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Amergin
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 11:10 PM

So? I'm a Socialist. I support Kerry. Damn, I guess just for that Bush should win!

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 11:31 PM

Lepus Rex -

My daughter is not shacked up with a Parsee. She has a Persian boyfriend, though. I do ask him about the middle east. I respect his answers because they are usually thoughtful. He also has a great sense of humour. The other day he told me he was going home to watch Jerry Springer so that he could learn more about American culture.   :>)

Is their something you greatly admire about the present government of Iran. If so - enlighten me.

d

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 07:37 AM

It's not only the communists, but the homosexual activists"...

Commies and Homos for Kerry

Has a nice ring to it.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 08:14 AM

Please Please Vote for a Government that does not give power to Donald Rumsfeld and the other disciples of the Prophet Strauss.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 08:43 AM

What a wonderful thread. It is a worthy sequel to the 'Who would Osama vote for' thread.

'Look, here is someone you surely don't like and he is voting for (endorsing) your candidate.'

Great argument, really convincing.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 08:54 AM

Who gives a s**t who endorses whom?

Vote whoever you think would be best for the US.

Vote for Bush, vote for Kerry, vote for Badnarik, vote for Nader -- I don't care. But vote for your choice (hopefully, a well-considered one).

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 12:48 PM

I wouldn't be so sure that watching Jerry Springer to find out about "American culture" would necessarily be a joke - I suspedct it's just the kind of thing a cultural antropoogist would home in on. Like buying the Sun to find out about English culture. Though that's a couple of steps lower even than Mr Springer.

Incidentally, has Jerry Springer endorsed anybody for President?

I suspect that one of the things that people running campaigns do is chase around trying to drum up damaging endorsements for the other side.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: harpgirl
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 01:12 PM

dianavan...have you ever noticed how much Lepus Rex and Martin Gibson sound alike? It's spooky....

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 01:21 PM

C'mon thats unfair! They both speak as they find. But one is educated and civil and then there's Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Nerd
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 02:34 PM

Jerry Springer was a politician before he was a TV personality, and I THINK he was a Democrat, though I'm not sure. Urban Jewish municipal politicians usually were dems, though, back in those days.

It's true that most Americans don't know that Kerry borrowed a slogan from Langston Hughes. Given that Hughes was one of our most important poets, and a hero to the Black community, I don't think this startling news will hurt Kerry much.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 07:28 PM

Langston Hughes was part of the Black Renaissance. John Kerry will be part of the American Renaissance. Fingers crossed.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 10:44 PM

Yeah, dianavan, but "shacked up with a Parsee" sounds so much cooler. And no, I'm not a huge fan of the current Iranian government. But you've been making false claims about it for a while now, even admitting, when confronted, that what you were saying was untrue. You're either intentionally attempting to mislead people, or are willfully ignorant of the facts because you hate those universally eeeeeeevil mullahs soooo much and the Parsee wouldn't lie cuz my daughter loves him!!! Either way, what you're doing is wrong, and, in a small way, harmful.

The time you've wasted spreading your anti-Iranian bullshit could have been spent learning actual facts about Iran. As I've told you, easy shit to find. And there are real human rights abuses in Iran; you don't need to make them up. See what Amnsesty Intl. and Human Rights Watch have to say. Go, do this shit. Please. Or, if you're not interested in facts, or in having a two-sided conversation with the Parsee, that's fine. Sit there and listen to him and nod like an idiot. But come here and spread these insane distortions, and I'll jump on it. Your lies are the kind of lies people spread about Iraq, oh, a year and a half ago. Remember?

And harpgirl... So, I take it you're still sore because I singled you out last year for the Karolina thing? Remember, when you whined about it to me in that PM? "Why meeee?!" If so, do get over it.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 10:46 PM

Amnsesty = Amnesty :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 11:40 PM

Yeah - Lepus Rex, Martin Gibson, guest...they're all the same. I think its called multiple personality disorder by some.

Refresh my memory, Lepus - What human rights abuses have I made up? The one about terrorist groups recruiting little boys in the schools of Iran? The one about the Mullahs and the slave trade? The one about drafting religious minorities and sending them to the front line?

d

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 12:29 AM

Click on the link in my last post, dianavan; we've had that discussion, remember? You admitted you were making things up, and you continue to lie. Again, think of the misinformation about Iraq that led to popular support for the current war. And the irrational ("they blew up the Buddha!!!!"), rabid anti-Taleban sentiments before 9/11 that led to a hardening of Americans' opinions on Afghanistan, and the consequences. (Uh, 9/11?) And note that most of the misinformation in both cases was supplied by disgruntled opposition and exile groups. Sound familiar?

Listen, if you're truly passionate about improving human rights in Iran, and I think you are, good for you. You should be. Do something about it. Parroting falsehoods on a folk music forum isn't helping the people of Iran. Once a-fucking-gain, educate yourself. Read everything that you can find on Iran, positive, negative, and most importantly, neutral. Meet a variety of people in or involved with Iran, in person, through the mail, online, wherever. Or, if possible, why not save up and visit Iran, and see what's happening for yourself? Don't just sit there, Bush-like, refusing to admit that you're totally fucking wrong in just about everything you have to say on this subject. Do something, if you care so much.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 12:45 AM

And guess who's endorsing Bush? Well, Britney Spears, for one. Don King, for another. With friends like these, who needs enemas?

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 01:21 AM

"...think of the misinformation about Iraq that led to popular support for the current war."

What are you talking about? I don't believe there was any popular support for the 'current war'.

d

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Nerd
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 01:25 AM

You're wrong on that dianavan. There was plenty of popular support, and more than half of Bush's supporters STILL

1) the war was justified
2) Iraq had WMD, and the Duelfer report proved it
3) Iraq provided significant support to Al Qaeda, and the 9/11 report proved it
4) Most people around the world support the War
5) Most people around the world want Bush Re-elected

It's weird, but they believe it!

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 01:42 AM

Ignorance of that magnitude is difficult to accept.

d

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 07:26 AM

But Always remember one man's Mede is another Man's Persian.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 08:33 AM

"What are you talking about? I don't believe there was any popular support for the 'current war'." -dianavan

You "don't believe?" So, despite widely-fucking-disseminated evidence such as... every pre-war poll showing that a majority of Americans supported the war, you refuse to believe that there was any popular support? Fine. You're an egomaniac, and I won't continue to try to help you, as you seem to be beyond help. Enjoy the delusions.

I will, however, continue to expose your crazy-ass lies, when I get the chance.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Nerd
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 01:50 PM

Yes, it is hard to accept, dianavan. But a recent study from the University of Maryland shows that it's true :-(

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 02:32 PM

dianavan lives in Canada where the media is a little less controlled and propagandized than than it is here. It's understandable that she might not be aware of the ways voters in this country are brainwashed on a daily basis.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 02:34 PM

blar, blar, blar, who cares whos endosing john kerry, bloddy loads of stuff about kerry.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: harpgirl
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 03:01 PM

Actually, Lep, I thought your old made up characters like Lena, Karolina, and the rest of them (there was a french girl recently as I recall) were pretty lame. Martin Gibson has fooled a lot of people, but any musician can tell he's a fake. Heck Lep, if Martin were real Art would have known him in Chicago....You should get the instruments he suypposedly plays more straight, for one thing.....love, harpgirl

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Nerd
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 03:16 PM

Any Jew can tell that certain of Martin Gibson's claims are for real, however...

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 03:17 PM

Lets line up the endorsements:

Pro Kerry:
Communist Party
France, Germany, Cuba, Spain
Yassir Arafat
The anti semetic leader of Malaysia (I believe that is correct- the guy who said that the jews run the world and should be eliminated(
Jesse the body Ventura
Hollywood, Bruce Sprinstein, Dixie Chicks,

Pro Bush
Vladimir Putin "a Kerry win would be a win for the terrorists"
Iran
Ed Koch, the democratic mayor of Youngstown Oh, Zel Miller
Don King, Arnold the governator,
Tony Blair, John Howard (Austrailia) Poland
Nashville

An interesting collection to say the least.   In looking at the sum of it, I am glad I am on the "right" side of this list.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Nerd
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 05:07 PM

Kerry:

International Brotherhood of Police officers
International Association of EMT's and Paramedics
General Johnnie E. Wilson (United States Army)
Admiral Stansfield Turner (United States Navy)
General John M. Shalikashvili (United States Army)
General Merrill ?Tony? A. McPeak (United States Air Force)
Lieutenant General Donald Kerrick (United States Army)
Lieutenant General Claudia J. Kennedy (United States Army)
General Joseph Hoar (United States Marine Corps)
Vice Admiral Lee F. Gunn (United States Navy)
Admiral William J. Crowe (United States Navy)
General Wesley K. Clark (United States Army)
Lieutenant General Daniel W. Christman (United States Army)
Lieutenant General Edward D. Baca (United States Army)
The Sierra Club
about 200 major CEOs
Ten Nobel Prize Winning Economists
169 top business school professors

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 06:24 PM

You've exposed me once again, harpgirl, you clever thing. Yes, I was "Karolina". And I had everyone fooled by my cunning portrayal of a Polish girl! What a thrill! But once I had a taste of that sweet, sweet broken-English deception power, I needed more... But, Hell, Polish is easy to fake when you grew up next to NE Mpls... I hungered for something a bit more challenging...

And so "Lena" was born! I had a great run as "Lena," suckering people into dozens of discussions of folk music. How I laughed at those fools! Muaha! I even took up painting to further the deception. But pretending to be an Italian girl in Australia who contibuted hundreds of interesting posts was too just exhausting for me...

So, as you know, I invented the hated bigot "Martin Gibson," my ultimate creation! I could still use the broken English of a non-English speaker, but without all that substance nonsense that pervaded "Karolina" and "Lena's" posts. With "Martin," not only did I get the thrill of decieving my fellow Mudcatters with every santorum-drenched post, but I got to express all of my suppressed racist and homophobic tendencies in the voice of an elderly porn addict! I was in heaven!

And you, you cunning little cow, fucked it all up with your tireless detective work. But as much as I hate you for ruining my fun, I must admit: I'm still a bit flattered. :}

(Ooh, break's over...)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: kendall
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 09:39 PM

So, in order for me to prove I'm not a communist I should support that lying phony coward? Not so you could notice my friend.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 10:41 PM

Remember right after 9/11 there was a cartoon on the net that showed a UPS truck delivering a bunch of USA rockets to Osama that blew his ass away? Then in the next scene the driver picked up the next package and it was addressed to Saddam?

That's the way popular opinion was after 9/11. First we were going to take care of Osama and then Saddam. it was like 90% were gung ho behind Bush, the cowboy about to dispense some western style justice.

The Democrats have spun it 180 degrees and divided us. Bush is not the divider, Kerry is the divider.

On the lists you forgot Rudy Guliani and Ed Koch, a democrat endorse Bush.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 11:01 PM

OG,

This is one helluva long time after 9/11. The US will be leaving Iraq when?

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 11:11 PM

And Osama will be captured when?

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 12:12 AM

and Halliburton will stop profiting by the sale of weapons and war when?

d

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 01:02 AM

The Democrats didn't have to spin anything to us to make us see that what the Bush administration has been doing is wrong. Those of us with a conscience knew they were wrong long before the Bush people even did these things. Some of us, even on the day of 9/11, said "we hope our government doesn't use this tragedy as an excuse to commit atrocities". But of course that was a vain hope, and we knew it.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 01:28 AM

If Halliburton is so evil why did Bill Clinton give them no bid contracts?

Did Dick Cheney whisper in Clintons ear? (while Monica's tongue was out of the way)

"The Clinton administration nonetheless awarded a no-bid contract to Halliburton to continue its work in the Balkans supporting the U.S. peacekeeping mission there because it made little sense to change midstream. According to Byron York, Al Gore's reinventing-government panel even singled out Halliburton for praise for its military logistics work."
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/richlowry/rl20030918.shtml

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 01:32 AM

STOP THAT, OG!


You are going to confuse them with the facts! Totally UNFAIR!

Only THEIR facts are supposed to be presented.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 01:47 AM

Clinton was also the president under whom US forces used depleted uranium on civilian population areas in the Balkans. Clinton was just as much a part of the corporate machine as Bush, although I do think he was capable of a greater degree of empathy and concern for people than Bush. But not enough to stop him from doing some bad things.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Nerd
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 03:50 AM

From the CPUSA web site:

Setting the record straight: CPUSA position on 2004 elections

Author: CPUSA Internet Department

First published 25.08.2004 20:00 by {article_topic_desc}


In the past month, several phony reports have been circulated by right-leaning papers and websites -- making various false claims about the Communist Party position on the 2004 elections.

Some have dabbled in dirty tricks to smear Kerry using the toxic mix of red-baiting and forgery. For instance, several websites have allowed a forged document to be posted that appears be an official CPUSA endorsement of Kerry, but it is in fact an incompetent counterfeit. They not only twisted our position around, they even got the name of our National Chair wrong (It's Sam Webb, not Marc Brodine)!

The red-baiting forgeries are just another part of the Bush campaign which is running on lies and fear. So, for the record, the CPUSA position on the 2004 elections:
(...)

2. The CPUSA does not endorse any candidate for President in the 2004 election.

(...)


In other words, Red Clay is full of shit (Big Surprise!) The Communist party is NOT endorsing Kerry, and Kerry is NOT in "Lock Step with Marxists."

Also, many of these other accusations are untrue. Kerry's picture in a museum in Hanoi is in an exhibit celebrating the restoration of diplomatic relations in the 1990s, and has nothing to do with people who "helped the VC." It hangs alongside photos of McNamara, Warren Christopher, and other Americans who visited Viet Nam in 1993.

Or are THOSE facts too painful for you, beardedbruce?

Finally, don't we have a policy against lengthy cut-and-paste articles on non-musical topics? Why did this bozo just join a few days ago to bombard us with right-wing clippings?

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 07:40 AM

Why don't people do some basic homework before they pass on dud imformation they've picked up from some dubious source?

I suppose that's a naive question, and assumes that they have some interest in truth, as opposed to winning a fight.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 02:21 PM

It is a shame Dan Rather did not get hold of those The red-baiting forgeries.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 02:25 PM

red-clay - Now that you know this is a lie. Do you still believe all of the other propaganda that you read? How do you think Hitler gained the support of the German people?

d

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 03:22 PM

OG:

I don't get it 0-- you raise a rhetorical question about Clinton and Haliburton (presumably) and cite for evidence a piece from somewhere that includes the exact explanation that answers the question you ask. What the hell is your point? The explanation of the administration's rationale is right there in the citation you provided, so why the hell are you asking? Even if the explanation is bogus, it just goes to support the argument that Dick Cheney is an underhanded manipulator and a powermonger with little conscience.
I doubt Clinton had much or anything at all to do with the management of whatever contracts were let for logistics in the Balkans. As a rule, that sort of contract management is done about ten levels down the organization from the President.

A

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 03:31 PM

dianavan, I could give a crap that you don't fit in with America. We're much better off without you paying taxes here and contributing nothing but your whining.

I could also care less about how unclean you like a man's genitalia.

Canada! You seserve her!

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 03:56 PM

Martin - If you don't know how to clean yourself, its probably better that you were circumcised.

d

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 04:04 PM

Amos:

I am asking why people complain about Bush doing the same things Clinton did except for the sexual escapades in the White House.

Then I back it up with a link to and an excerpt from an article that shows Clinton doing the same things Clinton did in regards to Halliburton contracts.

People are charging now that Dick Cheney is the reason Halliburton is getting these contracts. I note that Dick Cheney was not part of the Clinton administration but contracts were still given to Halliburton.

How can it be wrong that Halliburton is getting contracts now and how can it be Cheney's fault.

To cap all of that off Al Gore commended Halliburton for doing a good job.

It is the same old Democrat double standard at work. If a Democrat, Bill Clinton's administration, gave contract to Halliburton, it is great, even commendable because they did such a good job.

If George Bush's Republican administration gives a contract to Halliburton it is foul play orchestrated by Cheney and Halliburton is doing a lousy job.

Fair and Balanced right?

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 09:34 PM

Correction to the post above. "Clinton doing the same things Clinton did" should read "Bush is doing the same things Clinton did"

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 09:47 PM

Nerd

"Or are THOSE facts too painful for you, beardedbruce?"


What ones do you mean? My comment was about the Clinton Administration giving Halburton contracts. Are you refuting THOSE facts?

I find facts to be facts- If shown valid, they are facts. I had made NO comment of the Comunist Party, as I think that the whole idea of who supports a candidate is beyound the candidate's control- There are groups supporting Bush I do not approve of, as well as one's supporting Kerry. So what? How does that effect what I feel that the candidate will do to the country if elected?

Of are you just continuing in trying to be a troll, and an obnoxious one at that?

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Nerd
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 01:33 AM

Stop being such a baby, beardedbruce. You posted a comment on a thread about these endorsements. Pardon me for thinking you were making a relevant contribution and talking about the endorsements, which OG did in one of his posts. Pardon me for not being 100% sure which post of OG's you were lamely chiming in to support with your rhetoric, which was on the same intellectual level as "yeah!" For such a pugnacious mofo, you sure get sensitive as soon as someone calls you on your bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 01:37 AM

Sorry, nerd, I was merely corrcting what I saw as an error on the part of OG. I have found that sarcasm is of no use here on Mudcat, at all...

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 02:11 AM

beardedbruce, sarcasm is a form of insult. Don't be surprised if the objects of your insults don't respond very kindly to them.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Nerd
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 02:13 AM

Well, sarcasm can be good if it is funny. Beardedbruce generally isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 02:13 AM

CarolC,

And being told to fuck off, or being called mofo is obviously a term of endearment.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Nerd
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 02:26 AM

Well, where I come from mofo ain't so bad, bb. But I should point out that I didn't say it until you had accused me of being an obnoxious troll. See, I didn't see the sarcasm as an insult. But "obnoxious troll" is an insult where I come from (much worse than mofo!)

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 02:52 AM

Amos,

You state " As a rule, that sort of contract management is done about ten levels down the organization from the President.", but seem to accuse Bush of directly giving Haliburton contracts. Which one is it? You really need to think about how you warp your fact...

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 11:45 AM

No, you're right beardedbruce. There's plenty of insults coming from both sides, and nobody on either side should be surprised when the objects of their insults don't respond kindly to them.

(btw, I knew you were going to say that ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 11:59 AM

"People are charging now that Dick Cheney is the reason Halliburton is getting these contracts. I note that Dick Cheney was not part of the Clinton administration but contracts were still given to Halliburton."

Old Man, if you can't see the inpropriety of this, then what can I say.    It is one thing for Cheney to receive the contract when he was not connected with the awarding of the contract. For Halliburton to get a contract with the Bush administration when the Vice President will be making a profit is just unethical. Cheney can't have it both ways. He should either step down as VP or not be allowed to receive a penny from Halliburton.

"Fair and Balanced right?"

Obviously the Right sees it as fair and balanced. The rest of us do not look at this with blinders on.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 12:09 PM

Obnoxious Troll

Nazi

bigot

Mudcat's three big accusation names by some of the pathetically politically correct posters here who have been called on their excessive bullshit and out of touch reality of life in the real world.

You know who you are.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 12:27 PM

Yep...and you're one of them, Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 12:34 PM

And you are obviously one of the whiners I am referring to, who when out of anything else to say, call someone one of these three extremely overused comments.

Deal with it.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 12:45 PM

And you do the very same thing, Martin. You are nothing but a hypocrite. Go burn some crosses, it may just make you feel better about being inferior.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Old Guy
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 12:53 PM

Ron:

Show me where Cheney is making a profit. Does he get a fixed payment from Halliburton? Would that payment go away if Halliburton did not get any contracts? What other companys could handle those contracts? Did Halliburton get a commendation form Al Gore for their performance on past contracts?

Get back to me with that report and I will study it.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 12:57 PM

Wouldn't it make a lot of sense if everybody here stopped throwing these pretty pointless insults at each other? The best way to start that is to refuse absolutely to respond in kind when you get one of them thrown at you.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 01:06 PM

but seem to accuse Bush of directly giving Haliburton contracts.

BB:

Having carefully cleaned away your bitter sarcasm and ad hominem comments from your last post, I can say that I do not see where I have said Bush was giving Halliburton contracts directly. There is also a big difference between the usual contract award process in the military industrial machine, and the rushed and privileged process used in the Iraq instance. I don't know the details, and I am sure you don't want the evidence of this difference, but it looks plenty different from what I have seen.

But I have not said Bush awarded contracts directly and request that you kindly stuff it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Old Guy
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 01:48 PM

Amos:

I think a more appropriate phrase was used by your candidate for the position of first lady:

"You said something I didn't say. Now shove it."

Old guy

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Nerd
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 04:02 PM

There are no candidates for the position of first lady, Old Guy.

Trying to bring wives and husbands into the electoral process is one of the lower things done by smearmongerers on both sides. "Well, if we can make the spouse an issue, we'll have twice as many closets to search for skeletons."

Nice try, though, you ol' smearmeister!

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 04:06 PM

How stupid, Amerigin. Jews do not burn crosses. They get crosses burned on their lawns by white Christian racists, last I heard, moron.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 04:08 PM

Amos,

Thank you for your well-intentined comment. I will take it , then , from the quote I placed that YOU made about the contracts that you DO NOT think that the Bush administration is acting improperly. Since you "don't know the details, " to assume that they are acting differently than Clinton would be a very bigoted viewpoint. I certainly don't think you would not look at both sides of the issue before making your grand pronouncement of FACT.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Old Guy
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 04:20 PM

Nerd:

If she is not a candidate, tell her to stay off of the tube and stop makining political speeches then.

My wife got so frustated with the nasty campaign she said "I am voting for Laura Bush. She is nice"

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Nerd
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 05:17 PM

That just goes to show that your wife is as dumb as you are, Old Guy!

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Old Guy
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 05:26 PM

Noid:

You still haven't burned through my asbestos drawers yet.

You need some higher octane gas or maybe switch over to RPGs like others of your ilk use on Americans over in Iraq.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Nerd
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 01:33 AM

That's low, Old Guy. So you're calling me a terrorist or a murderer fighting against America? Well, you've lost all credibility here!

Oh, and among the peaceful people of my generation, RPGs refers to role playing games, Old Guy. Let's keep it that way.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 08:06 PM

Old Man - It is well documented, and confirmed by Cheney, that he receives 150,000 per year from Halliburton. He also receives stock options, which will provide a nice payoff of about 18 millino. Do your own research, a simple web search. Look for the New York article about it.

I never questioned that Halliburton does a good job, although I can see where others do.   Frankly, I agree with you, I don't think there is another company that could handle the job. Yes, they do overcharge the goverment (which is paid for by you and I), however checks and balances should take care of that. The use of Halliburton is not the issue.

What is at issue is the conflict of interest that Cheney has in his position. The FACT that people are quesitioning it is reason enough for him to step down or return the money.

What can you say about a man in a position of influence that stands to make a tidy profit from a war, and he controls the strings.    Surely even you can step aside from you conservative mindset and see that. If Al Gore tried something like that, you folks would soil your pants as you screamed "foul".

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 08:57 PM

I'll tell ya who else is endorsing John Kerry.



I am.

A

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Old Guy
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 09:36 PM

Ron:

I did research it but I did a more through job than you did.

His income from the Evil Halliburton is fixed. It is deferred payments from when he was at Halliburton. It would not increase if Halliburton makes more profit. However it would go away if Haliburton goes out of business. Cheney has bought an insurance policy against that. He has stock options that he can cash in at any time. This could be worth more or less money as the value of their stock varies. However he has pledged the profits from his stock options to charity.

You see all politicians prepare before they go into office so there will be no conflicts of interest. Then the opposition side has to float rumors to try to discredit the person in office. There would be Senate investigations if there was any substance to the rumors. Cheney could be impeached. But some will always be accusing the Evil Republicans of doing sneaky things.

I know you will shoot holes in this because you want there to be a conflict of interest. You want to believe the rumors. You want the Republicans to appear evil. You have fallen into the Democratic mind control trap.

"A Kerry ad implies Cheney has a financial interest in Halliburton and is profiting from the company's contracts in Iraq. The fact is, Cheney doesn't gain a penny from Halliburton's contracts, and almost certainly won't lose even if Halliburton goes bankrupt.

The ad claims Cheney got $2 million from Halliburton "as vice president," which is false. Actually, nearly $1.6 million of that was paid before Cheney took office. More importantly, all of it was earned before he was a candidate, when he was the company's chief executive.
Analysis



A Kerry ad released Sept 17 once again attacks Cheney's ties to Halliburton, implying that Cheney is profiting from the company's contracts in Iraq. That's false.

The ad isn't subtle. It says, "As vice president, Dick Cheney received $2 million from Halliburton. Halliburton got billions in no bid contracts in Iraq. Dick Cheney got $2 million. What did we get?" And it implies that Cheney lied to the public when he said in a TV interview that "I have no financial interest in Halliburton of any kind."

But as we document here, Cheney has insulated himself financially from whatever might happen to Halliburton. The Kerry ad misstates the facts.

$2 Million

To start, the $2 million figure is wrong. It is true that Cheney has received just under $2 million from Halliburton since his election, but nearly $1.6 million of that total was paid before Cheney actually took office on Jan. 20, 2001. Saying Cheney got that much "as vice president" is simply false.

We asked Cheney's personal attorney to document that, and he did, supplying several documents never released publicly before:

    *
      A Halliburton pay statement dated Jan 2, 2001 shows just under $147,579 was paid that day as "elect defrl payou," meaning payout of salary from the company's Elective Deferral Plan. That was salary Cheney had earned in 1999, but which he had chosen previously to receive in five installments spread over five years.
    *
      Another pay statement dated Jan. 18 shows $1,451,398 was paid that day under the company's "Incentive Plan C" for senior executives. That was Cheney's incentive compensation -- bonus money -- paid on the basis of the company's performance in 2000. Cheney had formally resigned from the company the previous September to campaign full time, but the amount of his bonus couldn't be calculated until the full year's financial results were known.

Cheney's personal financial disclosure forms, together with the pay statements just mentioned, show that Cheney has received $398,548 in deferred salary from Halliburton "as vice president." And of course, all of that is money he earned when he was the company's chief executive officer. Cheney was due to receive another payment in 2004, and a final payment in 2005.

The Kerry ad isn't the only place the false $2 million figure appears. The Democratic National Committee also gets it wrong on their website. The dates of the Halliburton payments don't appear on Cheney's personal financial disclosure form from 2001, and the DNC assumed -- incorrectly as we have shown -- that all the 2001 payment were made after he took office.

Deferred Salary

The $398,548 Halliburton has paid to Cheney while in office is all deferred compensation, a common practice that high-salaried executives use to reduce their tax bills by spreading income over several years. In Cheney's case, he signed a Halliburton form in December of 1998 choosing to have 50% of his salary for the next year, and 90% of any bonus money for that year, spread out over five years. (As it turned out, there was no bonus for 1999.) We asked Cheney's personal attorney to document the deferral agreement as well, and he supplied us with a copy of the form , posted here publicly for the first time.

Legally, Halliburton can't increase or reduce the amount of the deferred compensation no matter what Cheney does as vice president. So Cheney's deferred payments from Halliburton wouldn't increase no matter how much money the company makes, or how many government contracts it receives.

On the other hand, there is a possibility that if the company went bankrupt it would be unable to pay. That raises the theoretical possibility of a conflict of interest -- if the public interest somehow demanded that Cheney take action that would hurt Halliburton it could conceivably end up costing him money personally. So to insulate himself from that possible conflict, Cheney purchased an insurance policy (which cost him$14,903) that promises to pay him all the deferred compensation that Halliburton owes him even if the company goes bust and refuses to pay. The policy does contain escape clauses allowing the insurance company to refuse payment in the unlikely events that Cheney files a claim resulting "directly or indirectly" from a change in law or regulation, or from a "prepackaged" bankruptcy in which creditors agree on terms prior to filing. But otherwise it ensures Cheney will get what Halliburton owes him should it go under.

Cheney aides supplied a copy of that policy to us -- blacking out only some personal information about Cheney -- which we have posted here publicly for the first time.

Stock Options

That still would leave the possibility that Cheney could profit from his Halliburton stock options if the company's stock rises in value. However, Cheney and his wife Lynne have assigned any future profits from their stock options in Halliburton and several other companies to charity. And we're not just taking the Cheney's word for this -- we asked for a copy of the legal agreement they signed, which we post here publicly for the first time.

The "Gift Trust Agreement" the Cheney's signed two days before he took office turns over power of attorney to a trust administrator to sell the options at some future time and to give the after-tax profits to three charities. The agreement specifies that 40% will go to the University of Wyoming (Cheney's home state), 40% will go to George Washington University's medical faculty to be used for tax-exempt charitable purposes, and 20% will go to Capital Partners for Education , a charity that provides financial aid for low-income students in Washington, DC to attend private and religious schools.

The agreement states that it is "irrevocable and may not be terminated, waived or amended," so the Cheney's can't take back their options later.

The options owned by the Cheney's have been valued at nearly $8 million, his attorney says. Such valuations are rough estimates only -- the actual value will depend on what happens to stock prices in the future, which of course can't be known beforehand. But it is clear that giving up rights to the future profits constitutes a significant financial sacrifice, and a sizable donation to the chosen charities.

"Financial Interest"

Democrats have taken issue with Cheney's statement to Tim Russert on NBC's Meet the Press Sept. 14, 2003, when he said he had no "financial interest" in Halliburton:

    Cheney (Sept. 14, 2003): I've severed all my ties with the company, gotten rid of all my financial interests. I have no financial interest in Halliburton of any kind and haven't had now for over three years. And as vice president, I have absolutely no influence of, involvement of, knowledge of in any way, shape or form of contracts led by the Corps of Engineers or anybody else in the federal government.

Shortly after that, Democratic Sen. Frank Lautenberg released a legal analysis he'd requested from the Congressional Research Service. Without naming Cheney, the memo concluded a federal official in his position -- with deferred compensation covered by insurance, and stock options whose after-tax profits had been assigned to charity -- would still retain an "interest" that must be reported on an official's annual disclosure forms. And in fact, Cheney does report his options and deferred salary each year.

But the memo reached no firm conclusion as to whether such options or salary constitute an "interest" that would pose a legal conflict. It said "it is not clear" whether assigning option profits to charity would theoretically remove a potential conflict, adding, "no specific published rulings were found on the subject." And it said that insuring deferred compensation "might" remove it as a problem under conflict of interest laws.

Actually, the plain language of the Office of Government Ethics regulations on this matter seems clear enough. The regulations state: "The term financial interest means the potential for gain or loss to the employee . . . as a result of governmental action on the particular matter." So by removing the "potential for gain or loss" Cheney has solid grounds to argue that he has removed any "financial interest" that would pose a conflict under federal regulations.

Conflict of Interest

It is important to note here that Cheney could legally have held onto his Halliburton stock options, and no law required him to buy insurance against the possibility that Halliburton wouldn't pay the deferred compensation it owes him. Both the President and Vice President are specifically exempted from federal conflict-of-interest laws, for one thing, as are members of Congress and federal judges.

And even federal officials who are covered by the law may legally own a financial interest in a company, provided they formally recuse themselves -- stand aside -- from making decisions that would have a "direct and predictable effect on that interest." And Cheney says he's done just that.

Cheney says he takes no part in matters relating to Halliburton, and so far we've seen no credible allegation to the contrary. Time magazine reported in its June 7 edition that an e-mail from an unnamed Army Corps of Engineers official stated that a contract to be given to Halliburton in March 2003 "has been coordinated w VP's [Vice President's] office." But it wasn't clear who wrote that e-mail, whether the author had direct knowledge or was just repeating hearsay, or even what was meant by the word "coordinated," which could mean no more than that somebody in Cheney's office was being kept informed of contract talks.

Indeed, a few days later it was revealed that Cheney's chief of staff Lewis "Scooter" Libby was informed in advance that Halliburton was going to receive an earlier contract in the fall of 2002 -- to secretly plan post-war repair of Iraq's oil facilities. But being informed of a decision after it is made is a far cry from taking part in making it. And according to the White House, Libby didn't even pass on the information to Cheney anyway.

So to sum up, this Kerry ad's implication that Cheney has a financial interest in Halliburton is unfounded and the $2 million figure is flat wrong."
http://factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=261

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 09:59 PM

Thanks for proving my point Old Guy.

Your article deals with a lot of information that still gives Dick some wiggle room - "It said "it is not clear" whether assigning option profits to charity would theoretically remove a potential conflict, adding, "no specific published rulings were found on the subject"" and "The policy does contain escape clauses allowing the insurance company to refuse payment in the unlikely events that Cheney files a claim resulting "directly or indirectly" from a change in law or regulation, or from a "prepackaged" bankruptcy in which creditors agree on terms prior to filing."

As I said at the beginning, Cheney should have dropped all his connections with Halliburton or stepped down as Vice President. The fact that he took other steps to save the money does not eliminate the possibility that he can profit (as can his charities) by decisions the administration makes.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 10:37 AM

And just think of the tax breaks he gets by signing over the profits to charity!

I wonder which charity it goes to.

I also wonder how many taxes he paid last year or in the last five years for that matter.

d

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Nerd
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 01:40 PM

Old Guy is right that Cheney's connection to Halliburton falls short of the usual standards for "conflict of interest." However, there are legal standards for "financial ties" or "financial connections" that Cheney meets. On a few occasions he has declared himself to be free of "financial ties" to Halliburton; he was not telling the truth on those occasions. However, it is reasonable to believe that he was unaware of the specific legal meanings of "financial ties" and simply meant that there was no conflict of interest.

Cronyism is a less well-defined charge. Could Cheney be giving out no-bid contracts because his buddies still run Halliburton? It is possible. Could he be doing it because he expects to go back there after being VP? Again, possible. For this reason, the administration should have accepted bids on the contracts, to avoid the appearance of wrongdoing. The fact that they did not do this was arrogant (he thought he would get away with it without attracting any media attention), but falls short of being criminal.

Ron is also correct that neither the insurance policy nor the charity pledge eliminates the possibility that Cheney will be better off if Halliburton does better, so it is still possible for a future conflict of interest to arise, and for the administration's awarding of no-bid contracts to Halliburton in Cheney's administration to contribute to increased profits for Cheney. Still, it's not much to nail Cheney on.

The argument that because Clinton did it Bush can do it too is specious. If Bush gave some breaks to Democratic lawyers in Arkansas, no one would complain. If Clinton did it the right wing echo chamber would hit the roof. The fact of Cheney's former connection to Halliburton changes what is acceptable behavior from the administration.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 04:19 PM

Associated Press: "The New Yorker has made the first political endorsement in its 80-year history, backing Sen. John Kerry in next week's presidential election."

New Yorker Endorses Kerry for President, from Newsday.

THE CHOICE from The New Yorker, posted 25-Oct-2004, from the issue dated 01-Nov-2004.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 12:53 PM

The Economist endorses Kerry

reluctantly, maybe, grudgingly, even, but decisively, with their reasons well spelled out.   This comes as a surprise to me, and no doubt to many of their readers, who I had thought of as die-hard Republicans, mostly.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: GUEST,Johnjohn
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 01:21 PM

"Kerry Ad Falsely Accuses Cheney on Halliburton

Contrary to this ad's message, Cheney doesn't gain financially from the contracts given to the company he once headed.

September 30, 2004

Kerry ad implies Cheney has a financial interest in Halliburton and is profiting from the company's contracts in Iraq. The fact is, Cheney doesn't gain a penny from Halliburton's contracts, and almost certainly won't lose even if Halliburton goes bankrupt.

The ad claims Cheney got $2 million from Halliburton "as vice president," which is false. Actually, nearly $1.6 million of that was paid before Cheney took office. More importantly, all of it was earned before he was a candidate, when he was the company's chief executive.
Analysis

A Kerry ad released Sept 17 once again attacks Cheney's ties to Halliburton, implying that Cheney is profiting from the company's contracts in Iraq. That's false.

Kerry-Edwards Ad

"Cheney Halliburton"

Cheney: I have no financial interest in Halliburton of any kind and haven't had now for over three years.

Announcer: The truth: As vice president, Dick Cheney received $2 million from Halliburton. Halliburton got billions in no bid contracts in Iraq. Dick Cheney got $2 million. What did we get? A $200 billion dollar bill for Iraq. Lost jobs. Rising health care costs. It's time for a new direction.

John Kerry. Stronger at home. Respected in the world.

Announcer: I'm John Kerry, and I approve this message.

The ad isn't subtle. It says, "As vice president, Dick Cheney received $2 million from Halliburton. Halliburton got billions in no bid contracts in Iraq. Dick Cheney got $2 million. What did we get?" And it implies that Cheney lied to the public when he said in a TV interview that "I have no financial interest in Halliburton of any kind."

But as we document here, Cheney has insulated himself financially from whatever might happen to Halliburton. The Kerry ad misstates the facts.

$2 Million

To start, the $2 million figure is wrong. It is true that Cheney has received just under $2 million from Halliburton since his election, but nearly $1.6 million of that total was paid before Cheney actually took office on Jan. 20, 2001. Saying Cheney got that much "as vice president" is simply false.

We asked Cheney's personal attorney to document that, and he did, supplying several documents never released publicly before:

    *
      A Halliburton pay statement dated Jan 2, 2001 shows just under $147,579 was paid that day as "elect defrl payou," meaning payout of salary from the company's Elective Deferral Plan. That was salary Cheney had earned in 1999, but which he had chosen previously to receive in five installments spread over five years.
    *
      Another pay statement dated Jan. 18 shows $1,451,398 was paid that day under the company's "Incentive Plan C" for senior executives. That was Cheney's incentive compensation -- bonus money -- paid on the basis of the company's performance in 2000. Cheney had formally resigned from the company the previous September to campaign full time, but the amount of his bonus couldn't be calculated until the full year's financial results were known.

Cheney's personal financial disclosure forms, together with the pay statements just mentioned, show that Cheney has received $398,548 in deferred salary from Halliburton "as vice president." And of course, all of that is money he earned when he was the company's chief executive officer. Cheney was due to receive another payment in 2004, and a final payment in 2005.

The Kerry ad isn't the only place the false $2 million figure appears. The Democratic National Committee also gets it wrong on their website. The dates of the Halliburton payments don't appear on Cheney's personal financial disclosure form from 2001, and the DNC assumed -- incorrectly as we have shown -- that all the 2001 payment were made after he took office.

Deferred Salary

The $398,548 Halliburton has paid to Cheney while in office is all deferred compensation, a common practice that high-salaried executives use to reduce their tax bills by spreading income over several years. In Cheney's case, he signed a Halliburton form in December of 1998 choosing to have 50% of his salary for the next year, and 90% of any bonus money for that year, spread out over five years. (As it turned out, there was no bonus for 1999.) We asked Cheney's personal attorney to document the deferral agreement as well, and he supplied us with a copy of the form , posted here publicly for the first time.

Legally, Halliburton can't increase or reduce the amount of the deferred compensation no matter what Cheney does as vice president. So Cheney's deferred payments from Halliburton wouldn't increase no matter how much money the company makes, or how many government contracts it receives.

On the other hand, there is a possibility that if the company went bankrupt it would be unable to pay. That raises the theoretical possibility of a conflict of interest -- if the public interest somehow demanded that Cheney take action that would hurt Halliburton it could conceivably end up costing him money personally. So to insulate himself from that possible conflict, Cheney purchased an insurance policy (which cost him$14,903) that promises to pay him all the deferred compensation that Halliburton owes him even if the company goes bust and refuses to pay. The policy does contain escape clauses allowing the insurance company to refuse payment in the unlikely events that Cheney files a claim resulting "directly or indirectly" from a change in law or regulation, or from a "prepackaged" bankruptcy in which creditors agree on terms prior to filing. But otherwise it ensures Cheney will get what Halliburton owes him should it go under.

Cheney aides supplied a copy of that policy to us -- blacking out only some personal information about Cheney -- which we have posted here publicly for the first time.

Stock Options

That still would leave the possibility that Cheney could profit from his Halliburton stock options if the company's stock rises in value. However, Cheney and his wife Lynne have assigned any future profits from their stock options in Halliburton and several other companies to charity. And we're not just taking the Cheney's word for this -- we asked for a copy of the legal agreement they signed, which we post here publicly for the first time.

The "Gift Trust Agreement" the Cheney's signed two days before he took office turns over power of attorney to a trust administrator to sell the options at some future time and to give the after-tax profits to three charities. The agreement specifies that 40% will go to the University of Wyoming (Cheney's home state), 40% will go to George Washington University's medical faculty to be used for tax-exempt charitable purposes, and 20% will go to Capital Partners for Education , a charity that provides financial aid for low-income students in Washington, DC to attend private and religious schools.

The agreement states that it is "irrevocable and may not be terminated, waived or amended," so the Cheney's can't take back their options later.

The options owned by the Cheney's have been valued at nearly $8 million, his attorney says. Such valuations are rough estimates only -- the actual value will depend on what happens to stock prices in the future, which of course can't be known beforehand. But it is clear that giving up rights to the future profits constitutes a significant financial sacrifice, and a sizeable donation to the chosen charities.

"Financial Interest"

Democrats have taken issue with Cheney's statement to Tim Russert on NBC's Meet the Press Sept. 14, 2003, when he said he had no "financial interest" in Halliburton:

    Cheney (Sept. 14, 2003): I've severed all my ties with the company, gotten rid of all my financial interests. I have no financial interest in Halliburton of any kind and haven't had now for over three years. And as vice president, I have absolutely no influence of, involvement of, knowledge of in any way, shape or form of contracts led by the Corps of Engineers or anybody else in the federal government.

Shortly after that, Democratic Sen. Frank Lautenberg released a legal analysis he'd requested from the Congressional Research Service. Without naming Cheney, the memo concluded a federal official in his position -- with deferred compensation covered by insurance, and stock options whose after-tax profits had been assigned to charity -- would still retain an "interest" that must be reported on an official's annual disclosure forms. And in fact, Cheney does report his options and deferred salary each year.

But the memo reached no firm conclusion as to whether such options or salary constitute an "interest" that would pose a legal conflict. It said "it is not clear" whether assigning option profits to charity would theoretically remove a potential conflict, adding, "no specific published rulings were found on the subject." And it said that insuring deferred compensation "might" remove it as a problem under conflict of interest laws.

Actually, the plain language of the Office of Government Ethics regulations on this matter seems clear enough. The regulations state: "The term financial interest means the potential for gain or loss to the employee . . . as a result of governmental action on the particular matter." So by removing the "potential for gain or loss" Cheney has solid grounds to argue that he has removed any "financial interest" that would pose a conflict under federal regulations.

Conflict of Interest

It is important to note here that Cheney could legally have held onto his Halliburton stock options, and no law required him to buy insurance against the possibility that Halliburton wouldn't pay the deferred compensation it owes him. Both the President and Vice President are specifically exempted from federal conflict-of-interest laws, for one thing, as are members of Congress and federal judges.

And even federal officials who are covered by the law may legally own a financial interest in a company, provided they formally recuse themselves -- stand aside -- from making decisions that would have a "direct and predictable effect on that interest." And Cheney says he's done just that.

Cheney says he takes no part in matters relating to Halliburton, and so far we've seen no credible allegation to the contrary. Time magazine reported in its June 7 edition that an e-mail from an unnamed Army Corps of Engineers official stated that a contract to be given to Halliburton in March 2003 "has been coordinated w VP's [Vice President's] office." But it wasn't clear who wrote that e-mail, whether the author had direct knowledge or was just repeating hearsay, or even what was meant by the word "coordinated," which could mean no more than that somebody in Cheney's office was being kept informed of contract talks.

Indeed, a few days later it was revealed that Cheney's chief of staff Lewis "Scooter" Libby was informed in advance that Halliburton was going to receive an earlier contract in the fall of 2002 -- to secretly plan post-war repair of Iraq's oil facilities. But being informed of a decision after it is made is a far cry from taking part in making it. And according to the White House, Libby didn't even pass on the information to Cheney anyway.

So to sum up, this Kerry ad's implication that Cheney has a financial interest in Halliburton is unfounded and the $2 million figure is flat wrong."
http://www.factcheck.org/article261.html

JJ

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 02:19 PM

It's not hard to make a "blue clicky". Honest. If I can do it, anyone can. Come on, try it, don't be afraid! You can do it!

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 02:23 PM

Fact of the matter is anyone who is sensitive to key human qualities such as clarity of thought, compassion for others, intelligence, ability to face consequences and analyze issues is endorsing John Kerry.

Those given to hero-worship, cowboy stories and mythological ensorcellment may feel other wise.

A

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: GUEST,S Hill
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 02:48 PM

"Foreign election monitors driven by leftist political agenda
By Tom DeWeese web posted October 4, 2004

ARTICLE HERE

The policy is that a link must be used where available. No cut and paste. Thanks, mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 06:33 PM

Be honest now, GUEST S Hill, you didn't even TRY to make a "blue clicky" did you? You'll never learn if you don't try.

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: pdq
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 06:43 PM

Who sez people don't like John Kerry? Recently, he's been a big feature at free Bruce Springsteen concerts!

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 06:50 PM

The Bosses!

Subject: RE: BS: guess who is endorsing John Kerry?
From: GUEST,S Hill
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 06:17 PM

"The man who will actually appoint the OSCE's election monitors, for example, is Alcee Hastings, a disgraced former federal judge who was impeached for taking a $150,000 bribe."
http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3832.html