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Subject: RE: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: Rozza Date: 01 May 11 - 06:58 AM William Delf was certainly no great poet. Threescore and Ten stands out as a masterpiece compared to such as this verse in one of his other poems: The "C.H.Spurgeon" too as well, the crew did suffer great The second hand was swept away, it's awful to relate The cook brought in a lifeless corpse, who died upon the deck, While the vessel was lying in the sea totally a wreck. Ruairidh |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: Ross Campbell Date: 01 May 11 - 08:58 PM The "Boxing the Compass" version is exactly the same as "The Oxford Book of Sea Songs" version given above. I'll still continue to sing "They long did fight that bitter night, and battled with the swell". (Doesn't seem to clash disastrously with what anybody else sings, and it's how I made sense of what I heard years ago in the Waterson's version). Ross |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: Rozza Date: 02 May 11 - 03:27 PM Perhaps there's an American link to 3x20+10. American choral composer wrote the Shepherds' Carol which begins: Methinks I see an heav'nly host. Of angels on the wing. Methinks I hear their cheerful notes. So merrily they sing Delf may well have been familiar with this, especially if he had a chapel connection. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: Steve Gardham Date: 03 May 11 - 11:27 AM Rozza, Is there any link between the tune of the hymn and 70? Nigel Hudleston who recorded Pearson singing it always said the tune was a slowed down version of Jingle Bells. As Delf mentions no tunes on his sheets we can presume the tune was added later. Somebody sang it at a session I was at last night with the extra verse and a highly individual version of the tune which went quite nicely. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: Rozza Date: 03 May 11 - 11:54 AM Funnily enough, I listened to it today. The link is: Shepherds' Carol: Billings |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: Rozza Date: 03 May 11 - 12:00 PM There's also a YouTube rendition. The tune is vaguely reminiscent, but not a strong similarity. Quire Cleveland |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: ripov Date: 03 May 11 - 12:12 PM "down" from Yarmouth to Scarboro' would correspond with railway usage (ie UP is toward London). Though I don't know how long this has been the convention. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: Artful Codger Date: 03 May 11 - 03:28 PM "The Shepherd's Carol" is what Billings originally titled "Heavenly Host" in The Singing Master's Assistant (1778). The original setting was "Boston" rather than "Shiloh", as in the Quire Cleveland clip, though both were written (or arranged--one is seldom sure) by Billings. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: Mo the caller Date: 04 May 11 - 03:20 AM It always seem to me that the way people bawl out the chorous with such gusto is a bit out of keeping with the subject matter. The tune lends itself to a 'raise the roof' chorus. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: Les from Hull Date: 04 May 11 - 09:17 AM Steve - that was Laurie, known here at Mudcat as 'Bloke in the corner'. And I second your remarks about casting the lead. This would be a deep-sea lead, not the lead you use close inshore. The deep-sea lead has a recess in the bottom that you fill with tallow to pick up a sample of what is on the bottom. That is what you would use to find where you wanted to fish such as the 'Silver Pit'. Another mention of the deep-sea lead is in 'Spanish Ladies'. We hove our ship to with the wind from sou'west, boys We hove our ship to, deep soundings to take 'Twas forty-five fathoms, with a white sandy bottom And it was certainly trawling not line fishing in 1889. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: Steve Gardham Date: 04 May 11 - 03:18 PM Thanks, Captain Ward, you're a mine of information. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: Steve Gardham Date: 04 May 11 - 03:45 PM Les, Our Chris showed us one of these only last weekend, complete with hole for the tallow. We're going to use it on the Humber next time we go out. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: Les from Hull Date: 05 May 11 - 05:48 AM You'll likely get mud! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: Steve Gardham Date: 05 May 11 - 02:30 PM Oh! Now you've spoilt the surprise! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: Herga Kitty Date: 05 May 11 - 03:59 PM I've always thought "long defied" or "long did fight" made more sense than "longed to fight", so was surprised to hear from Brian Dawson (at Sidmouth a couple of years ago) that the record of what WD wrote seemed to be longed to fight.... Kitty |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: Ross Campbell Date: 06 May 11 - 10:15 AM On Sunday 26th June, 2011, the Bothy Folk Club, now based at The Park Golf Club, Park Rd West, Southport, PR9 0JS are running a Themed Singers Night, 'Three Score & Ten'; it's also Ian Wells' birthday. Can the number and the birthday conceivably be related? Doesn't seem possible, but then he has been a ubiquitous and supportive presence on the North West folk scene for as long as I can remember (and I've been in this area nearly forty years). All the best for the day! Ross |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: Steve Gardham Date: 06 May 11 - 01:30 PM Kitty, As far as we know Delf didn't write this line. The nearest thing to it he wrote is in his 6th verse where he puts, '.....................the midnight hour was passed, Their little craft was battling there with the fiery blast.' Which we presume inspired the line in the later chorus. There is no mention of 'long' or 'longed'. If the Filey men had learnt it orally as seems to be the case they could easily have misheard it. On the only surviving recording the word is 'long...' but the ending is difficult to say for certain. If we take the spirit of what Delf actually wrote 'long did' seems to be the nearest. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: Herga Kitty Date: 06 May 11 - 01:49 PM Thanks Steve... I may have misreported what Brian said, but the impression I got was that there are different interpretations, which I think is consistent with your post... Kitty |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: GUEST,violets 49 Date: 14 Oct 16 - 02:25 PM This song is alleged to refer to the 'great Gale of 8th/9th February 1889. And yet the last verse begins 'October's night brought such a site' Why October? Has this song got its origins in the Eyemouth Disaster of 14th October 1881? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: Steve Gardham Date: 14 Oct 16 - 06:19 PM Just tried twice to reply to this thread and it disappeared. Other threads fine! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: Steve Gardham Date: 14 Oct 16 - 06:21 PM Okay 3rd time lucky. No mention of October's night in original. Filey version possibly hybrid, but dates are notoriously fickle in oral tradition. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: LINES IN MEMORIAM OF THE POOR FISHERMEN From: Jim Dixon Date: 29 Oct 19 - 08:39 PM I went looking for the original broadside of the song we now call THREE SCORE AND TEN. I didn’t find it, but I found this instead: a different song (or poem) by the same author, William Delf. I found it at a website called Popular Romanticism: Lines in Memoriam of the poor Fishermen who lost their lives at sea, from HULL and other ports, on Tuesday, March, 6th, 1883. In March, Eighteen Hundred and Eighty Three, A dreadful gale swept o’er the sea And dealt destruction far and near, And many took from their loved ones dear. The smacks from the fishing ports went out, The crews with happy hearts, no doubt, And left all those they lov’d behind, Their bread upon the sea to find. But alas, that fearful gale did come And sealed many a poor fisher’s doom, And make the hearts of many weep, When a comrade was swept into the deep. Along the coast, and at every port, Where vessels belong of the fishing sort, Heart rending scenes does there prevail, For loved ones perished in the gale. At Hull the shock is greatly felt, With the vessels it has most severely dealt, Crews were lost on every hand, With vessels no more to reach the land. The Speedwell, a cutter when she made the port Her flag half-mast, her crew were short, Her much respected captain gone, A man respected by every one. The smacks came in with flags half-mast, The signal some had seen their last, Bringing the dreadful news on shore, To loved ones they will see no more. Wives and children are left behind To mourn the loss of those so kind. The winner of their bread is gone, Into a land to us unknown. Fathers and mothers also do weep For sons who have perished in the deep, Their loving voice no more to hear, Nor yet to see their face so dear. Spars and canvas got torn away By wind and wave that took the sway, And cast a gloom o’er many a heart, When spars and canvas got torn apart. But spars and canvas cannot compare With life which to us all is dear. Not all the property untold Can purchase back one single soul. But when so far away from land, No Lifeboat is at their command, There at the mercy of the wave, Trusting in who alone can save. Filey is a little fishing spot, And it its share of grief has got. Widows and children do there lament Of the dreadful gale that’s sent. Now, kind friends, your aid bestow To help the widows here below And their dear children left behind, A loving father no more to find. O God, thou sees the widow and children dear. In love, their sorrowing hearts do cheer. Comfort and cheer them in distress. Provide for the child that’s fatherless. Send comfort to every bereaved home. Be thou their help in time to come, And may we never hear or see In Hull such direful calamity. Composed & Sold in aid of the Widows & Orphans by Wm. Delf, Fisherman. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: Iains Date: 30 Oct 19 - 05:49 AM Being pedantic it is only boats from Hull would sail down the Humber. Sailing from Grimsby Spurn point is passed after a couple of miles and then you are in the north sea. Both Hull and Grimsby were large fishing ports. Grimsby was arguably the largest and busiest fishing port in the world, at its peak in the 1950s. Figures quoted mention 500 vessels out of Grimsby and 350 out of Hull. Loss of life still occurred at the height of the industry. A total of 40 crewmen of the vessel Roderigo and the J. Marr owned ship the Lorella, were both lost following a tragic accident. The accident occurred on the 26 January 1955 during severe weather condition 90 miles of the North Cape of Iceland. Another huge disaster occurred in 1968 when three trawlers were lost with the loss of 58 lives’. The St Romanus went down on 11 January, just 110 miles off Spurn Point. The Kingston Peridot perished on 26 January. And the Ross Cleveland sank during a storm off northern Iceland on 4 February with only one survivor. in the past 10 years, a total of 94 of the UK's approximately 12,000 commercial fisherman have died at sea across the UK; 529 fishermen have suffered serious injury; and 210 fishing vessels have been lost. Fishing is still ranked one of the most dangerous occupations in the UK. Having being sat in the middle of the north sea when the great gale(hurricane) of 1987 occurred it would seem to me only a raging lunatic would long to fight the bitter night and battle with the swell Even our standby boat scuttled off for cover that night and very sensible he was , too!(That was after having some of his bridge windows stoved in) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!) Date: 30 Oct 19 - 06:10 AM "Having being sat in the middle of the north sea when the great gale(hurricane) of 1987 occurred it would seem to me only a raging lunatic would long to fight the bitter night and battle with the swell" I've always thought this was a mis-hearing of "they long DID fight the bitter night...", which would make more sense |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: Snuffy Date: 30 Oct 19 - 07:17 AM Hi Jon, I always thought the mis-heard phrase was "they long DEFIED the bitter night...". Either of these at least makes sense, whereas "Longed to fight" is just nonsense. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!) Date: 30 Oct 19 - 07:36 AM Hi Snuffy, on re-reading the thread, I've just noticed that Herga Kitty made the same point about "did fight" and "defied" in 2011! It seems to be a mis-hearing that was noted down and thus became set in stone... |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: r.padgett Date: 30 Oct 19 - 11:28 AM They long did fight that bitter night Ray |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: r.padgett Date: 30 Oct 19 - 12:15 PM "In Memoriam of the poor Fisherman who lost their lives in the Dreadful Gale from Grimsby & Hull, Feb. 8 & 9, 1889 is the title of a broadside produced by a Grimsby fisherman, William Delf, to raise funds for the bereaved families. It lists 8 lost vessels, the last 2 from Hull: Eton, John Wintringham, Sea Searcher, Sir Fred, Roberts, British Workman, Kitten, Harold, Adventure & Olive Branch. In addition the names of some of the lost sailors are given, & there is a poem in 8 stanzas. This passed into oral tradition & in doing so lost 6 verses & aquired a new one (the last, in which an error of date occurs), together with a chorus & a tune. The oral version was noted from a master mariner, Mr. J. Pearson of Filey, in 1957, & has subsequently, with some futher small variations, become well known in folk-song clubs". |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: Mrrzy Date: 31 Oct 19 - 12:34 AM Long did fight, sing the Clancies. 'Nuff said. (Hahahahaha whew sorry.) |
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