BS: Just what are moral issues???....

Subject: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 10:53 PM

Seems that now that Diebold has done what it promised to do, the Bushite pollsters say he won (like a big ol Wes Ginny haha...) because of moral issues???

Given the increased poverty levels in America and the over 100,000 dead folks from that last 4 years I was jus' wonderin' exactly what "moral issues' means?

Like is it open season on gay people?

Or starving some old folks out?

Er' what...

I mean like I'm trying to get up to speed with this moral stuff but didn't recieve a handbook 'er nuthin' so maybe someone on the Bush side of the isle could fill me in until I get my persoanlized copy to the rule book....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 10:57 PM

Good luck on getting the answers, obert.

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 10:57 PM

Insert "B".

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 11:00 PM

I like "obert", Ebbie... Might of fact, I'm thinkin' seriously to changin' my handle to "obert"....

Really. Has a nice ring to it.....

Obert

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: mg
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 11:07 PM

How about using, tolerating and encouraging the use of drugs. Some of these drugs are fairly victimless, such as growing mild voltage marijuana in your attic, and some are deadly, such as meth. It takes down whole neighborhoods, cities, counties...as did crack cocaine. It creates cesspools where firemen are afraid to go, where police are afraid to go, where children can't walk to school or ride the bus safely, where companies won't invest.

How about being so lax in raising our youngsters that 12 year olds get pregnant?

How about partial birth abortion?

How about educated, prosperous (so no excuses that I can see) women deliberately bringing fatherless children into the world, maybe and maybe not injuring their own children, and definitely setting a bad example for the younger, more naive and disadvantaged women to do the same.

How about being so environmentally unbalanced (not aware, unbalanced) that whole segments of the economy are essentially shut down.

How about allowing schoolchildren to wear clothes that prostitutes would be ashamed to flaunt.

How about ridiculing or abusing Nascar dads, stay-at-home moms, Southerners, veterans, red-necks, people who like country music, Christians, Christian fundamentalists, Christian right-wing fundamentalist, Christian rightwing hate-filled evangelical fundamentalists, people who shop at Wal-Mart, people who drive heavier cars so their children will be safer, people who wear polyester pants, unless they are cocaine dealers, I could go on.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 11:16 PM

And exactly where is is that Hohn Kerry was a aproponent of anything on yer list, mg? Yet he recieved only 18% of the votes from folks who *said* that they voted because of moral differences between the candidates???

Go figure???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 11:17 PM

Make that John, no Hohn...

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 11:26 PM

It'll be Hohn next time, Bobert, when he courts the Latino vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 11:30 PM

LOL, Cluin an'

Que pasa...

Boberto

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 11:35 PM

(I like 'Hohn', obert)

How about paying one's bills, not loading them onto one's grandchildren; how about telling the truth; how about being able to accept responsibility; how about being self-aware enough to not only realize that one is able to make mistakes but to face those that one has made; how about being aware that one's policies are hurting one's children; how about being cavalier in inflicting violence on innocents but not being willing to put oneself into harms way; how about playing God with one's power, etc, etc.

One reason I will never have other than revulsion toward Dubya is his response regarding Karla Faye Tucker's plea to him for a 30-day stay of execution He mocked: "She said, Please, Governor, don't kill me."

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 11:45 PM

Not only Harla Faye, Eb, but hundreds of poor folks who were railroaded by Bush's racist system of injustice right into the executioner's chanmbers... Yeah, Bush never met a poor nigga not needin' a good jolt of 'electricty...

And he seemed to get some delight in it all. Real Christain! Hes a friggin' heathenous sadist. His wife should be honest enopugh to just walk outta the White House, hail a cab and ask thre driver to take her to the nearest church and she should claim ammunity from any more of this Satan worshippin' mans behavior...

Christain, my butt...

Heathen...

'obert

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 11:53 PM

They executed another person in Texas on the day of the election. And, Laura is no saint, Bobert. She killed a person in a driving "accident" way back when. The family of the young man says it was deliberate because he'd dumped her and she was mad. It is also said that she was drunk, but she was never charged with anything.

Great values to bring to the White House, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 12:56 AM

Seems to me that "Moral Values" is code for "We love the fact that under Bush we can finally be free to hate blacks, Catholics (unless they promoted The Passion of Christ, and in that case, we'll like 'em only so long as we need 'em), Single-mothers, anyone who isn't rich or doesn't aspire to be rich, anyone NOT on the approved list of Christian sects, Muslims, Jews, Gays, Anyone who sympathises with gays, ETc..."

These people aren't "Right to lifers" they are only for the right for people such as themselves to live. Everyone else can bugger off and die as far as they are concerned. As a Christian myself, I don't hate these people who certainly seem to hate me....I do pray for them because I believe they will have to answer for their actions the same way I will have to answer for my own. I hope they are prepared to justify their behavior to He whom they claim to serve. Me, I only hope that I'm doing what I'm supposed to do and pray everyday for guidance from God, not politicians, for the laws of men are often NOT the laws of God. I'll take my cues from His Word as it has existed for centuries, not from people who claim to have a direct Hotline to his daily Memos which appear to change position frequently.

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: mousethief
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 01:08 AM

I get confused when they are really big on telling people whom they can and cannot screw, but don't give a damn whom the huge conglomerates screw. It's so hard to tell what "moral" means in these days of lying, dirty dealing, and megalevels of unchecked corporate greed.

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 01:43 AM

Killing people for money (and/or oil). That's a pretty big moral issue for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 04:15 AM

Killing people for profit is worse.

...America's economy is now dependent on war profiteering.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 05:55 AM

Mary Garvey made a valid point,so don't brush it under the carpet.

Our society is rotten and souless.
But I believe this condition is a product of the very culture Mary wishes to preserve, rather than a lack of "morality"
in the population.

Christ tackled the Capitalists of his day head on, and spoke endlessly for the oppressed against the establishment.
A bit like GUEST really....AKE

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: *daylia*
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 06:56 AM

I think Jesus did what He did in the Temple that day not to attack "Capitalists" per se, but to demonstrate to the unwashed masses that in spite of the activities of their so-called spiritual authorities, politics and economics have no place in spiritual matters.

Gee, His efforts have made quite the difference for the last couple millenia huh? I'm so glad He gave His life to enlighten us all!

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: Susan A-R
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 12:42 PM

There is the "How many lives per gallon?" question for me.

There are a lot of moral issues out there, but someone's pointing to the most divisive ones and saying "THESE ARE THE ONES TO CARE ABOUT" somewhat like the 1930s in Germany.

I think it's time to talk morals/religion/politics, thoughtfully, with anyone who will listen and participate in the discussion, that means all of the folks I've avoided the discussion with because I've been too impatient. Yes, abortion is a moral issue, but a legal ban on it isn't the first line of defense. What do we want for values behind CIVIL marriage?

How do we poke through the "hate the sin; love the sinner" stuff which seems to be code for gay bashing?

And then somehow I thought that Jesus said that the way to get into heaven was to feed the hungry, cloth the naked, comfort the afflicted, that sort of thing.

Then wasn't there something about Judging not lest ye be judged.

I' m rambling, sorry.

Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 01:31 PM

Moral issues! Ha!

I think, for one, we're confusing 'moral' with 'religious'. It's perfectly possible to be both, or neither. It's also possible to have morals without being religious, and, as evidenced by Bush, to be religious and immoral- or amoral, rather.

Secondly, there is no code of morality that is universally acceptable. Also, the moral position of any given society will shift over time.

Thirdly, it seems we are incapable of conducting a civilised debate on the subject without descending into petulant 'it's just WRONG!' footstamping. (I mean 'we' as in society as whole).

Peace,
Devils' Advocate

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 01:33 PM

We need to restart the conversation though, by including the discussion of secular morals which can be embraced by all religions and the non-religious alike. All these conversations seem to be about is which brand of Christianity do people prefer. There are many Americans who are not Christian, yet this "conversation" about moral values is nearly always framed in a Christian American nationalist context.

We used to call the overarching basic premise of our moral values in the US "The Golden Rule". It didn't have god in it, just "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

It is a Christian quote, I know. But the concept is the best place to start: the standard of the way we care for others should be the same standard of the way we wish to be cared for ourselves by others.

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 02:32 PM

You're right about the golden rule, Guest. Its pretty universal.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 04:05 PM

Secularity must also be at the center of the discussion, not the periphery, and not in the wilderness, which is where the Democratic party has sent the secularists in the post-Reagan era.

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: Com Seangan
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 04:14 PM

I liked Blissfully Ignorant's contribution. He/she is right. Morality and Religion are not the same. Although most religions that I know do preach a moral code.

As a frequent visitor to Japan, I admire the their basic honesty and respect for people and for property on a scale that no longer obtains in the West. And yet the majority of Japanese will profess to no religion. Like the rest of us of course the suffer from the our common flawed humanity. But the message I get from them is that to be moral, you do not have to be religious.

Thanks to all for the debate and for teasing out such a delicate and essential subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 04:18 PM

Secularity of state. It's only sensible...

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 04:21 PM

Secularity is the only path that allows everyone to be who they are and believe what they want, without killing one another for being/believing differently than one's self.

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: Susan A-R
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 06:57 PM

I believe Madison had some pretty inteligent stuff to say about church and state about two hundred years ago. Good man.

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 09:26 PM

The way i see it, anyone who's willing to kill for their beliefs is a dangerous fanatic and should be kept securely in a padded cell..

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 10:45 PM

But how about those who are willing to DIE for their beliefs?

Bill Maher, of Politically Incorrect at the time, lost his television show when he responded to the US charge that the terrorists were cowardly when they slammed the planes into the towers and the Pentagon by saying, (paraphrased) There's no way you can call them 'cowardly'. Misguided, evil, fanatical, yes. But not cowardly. They were willing to give up their lives for their beliefs.'

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 10:51 PM

It is not too difficult to visualise oneself being willing to kill in defense of one's home.

Suppose your country, suppose the USA, were invaded by some other country, and the US government was gone, leaving everything up to the citizens. I have no doubt but that we'd take to the hills and into the inner cities, practicing guerilla warfare. We might die individually and in droves but we wouldn't give up. We might not be able to drive them out but we could sure make life miserable for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 08:43 AM

For me Ebbie, I can say it isn't very likely at all I personally would take up arms to "defend the homeland". Self-defense and defense of my loved ones is the only reason I would kill.

The nation state be damned.

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: Com Seangan
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 09:20 AM

"The way i see it, anyone who's willing to kill for their beliefs is a dangerous fanatic and should be kept securely in a padded cell.".

So says Blissfully ignorant. Does this apply to George W. ?

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 09:24 AM

I say it should start with George W, but maybe it should include the US citizenry that supports killing innocents for our "national interests" or to "support the troops".

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: mack/misophist
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:36 AM

What are moral issues? They tend to be defined by the group with the most TV stations, newspapers, and pulpits. The definitions are almost always sloppy. Let's look at just one of mary garvey's issues, young girls who dress like hookers. To begin with, it's the parent's responsibility to decide how their children dress, not the state's. So this is really 3 groups: parents who don't think "the look" is lacivious, parents who can't control their children, and parents who don't give a damn one way or the other. What do you want to bet that most of each group believes itself to be moral?

BTW, it may be simpler if we distinguished between morals and ethics. Morals are based on authority, scripture usually. Ethics are the rules we need to survive more or less peacefully in groups. There's a lot of overlap but they're not the same. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." is clearly a moral rule. "Thou shalt not kill." is also ethical.

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 11:13 AM

"I was hungry, and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me drink. I was a stranger, and you took me in. I was naked, and you clothed me. I was sick, and you visited me. I was in prison, and you came to me."

Or in Sydney Carter's version:

When I needed a neighbour
Were you there, were you there?
When I needed a neighbour
Were you there?
And the creed and the colour
And the name won't matter
Were you there?

I was hungry and thirsty
Were you there, were you there?
I was hungry and thirsty
Were you there?
And the creed and the colour
And the name won't matter
Were you there?...

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 12:40 PM

Thanks, McGrath.

And of course there's always this old stand-by too (not sure who wrote it, but it was recorded in 1969 by Canada's "Original Caste")

...Go ahead and hate your neighbour
Go ahead and cheat a friend
Do it in the name of heaven
You can justify it in the end

There won't be any trumpets blowin
Come the judgment day
On the bloody morning after
One Tin Soldier rides away


Hmmm, now I've got THIS old song running through my head too!

... now some folks they call me a cow'rd
Cause I left her at the drive-in that night
But I'd ruther have names thrown at me
Than fight for a thing that ain't right

I used to sleep at the foot of Ole Glory
And awake in the dawn's early light
But much to my surprise when I opened my eyes
I was a victim of The Great Compromise

- John Prine (America's most musical mailman)

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 07:42 PM

"The way i see it, anyone who's willing to kill for their beliefs is a dangerous fanatic and should be kept securely in a padded cell.".

So says Blissfully ignorant. Does this apply to George W. ? "

I said anyone. That covers everyone. :0)

Anyone willing to die for their beliefs could probably do with some psychiatric help too. But, failing that, if they want to go and top themselves because God, or Allah, or the Easter Bunny told them too....fine, provided they don't take anyone else with them. As for whether it would be courageous of them to do so? In my opinion, no. Blind faith is the easy option. It's a lot more difficult to question, discuss, and reaffirm(or, indeed, abandon) your beliefs. And suicide is the easy option, too, especially if the individual is convinced of being blessed in the afterlife by virtue of their commiting suicide. It just leaves all the hurt for their family togo through. How brave is that? Just shuffling off this mortal coil and leaving all the pain for someone else to deal with?

And no, i wouldn't kill to defend my home, property, or country.
"Self-defense and defense of my loved ones is the only reason I would kill. "

I'm with GUEST on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 08:07 PM

You may notice that I was using the US metaphorically for Iraq.

Frankly, I don't know how I would react to my country being overwhelmed by foreign forces. However, if my country's government became hostile to its citizenry I suspect that a great many of our citizens would turn guerilla, rather than allow themselves or their loved ones to be be taken away.

You may have heard that in WWII, there were a number of European countries, overrun by the Nazis, where cells of people joined forces against them. Many of them lost their lives. I have always thought them heroic.

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: Amos
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 08:28 PM

"Moral issues" are like, when someone has to be strong and decide who to shoot at next, that's a moral issue, see? Or like, when the Bill of Rights which defines certain freedoms as inalienable and all that can be watered down, but we need to order people around about whom to marry, why, that's a moral issue, too, you see? "Moral issue" means having a leader who makes sure that mostly those who get shot are of other nationalities and persuasions, plus or minus a few thousand.

These are new, brave definitions of morality, to be sure, but we'll get used to them in the next four years.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 08:32 PM

So-called "moral issues", in the context of political campaigning, are emotional red flags that are waved in the face of the public bull by unscrupulous politicians who have had those flags put in their hands by their professional campaign strategists. If the public is no smarter or more aware than the normal bull, they charge through the cape and vote predictably and accordingly. Then the matador stabs them with his sword and the bullfight ends. One dead bull. One rich matador.

Matador means "killer", by the way, and it is by no means a moral occupation.

As to what is or is not a moral issue...everyone decides that for themselves...unless they are accustomed to letting someone else do their thinking for them. I would assert that for the majority of people, the latter condition applies.

It has for centuries been an illusion of the common people that justice and freedom would somehow be secured in their own time...when they were actually ruled by tyrants...elected or otherwise. If you want freedom, you have to BECOME FREE YOURSELF in your own mind. You can't do that when you let other people do your thinking for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:01 PM

Amen to that, Little Hawk!

"You may notice that I was using the US metaphorically for Iraq."

Although i may on occasion exhibit my immaturity by laughing at genitals i can recognise analogy, and also it's wayward cousin false analogy. Firstly, the chances of a full-scale land invasion of the USA are practically nil. Secondly, the social, political and cultural positions and the geographical structure of the USA are so different to those of Iraq that to assume the outcome of a hypothetical conflict in America based on what has happened in Iraq during the real war would be vastly over-simplifying matters.

Blissfully 'do not misunderestimate me' Ignorant :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:15 PM

Not totally on topic, but isn't it a pretty common historical happenstance where small power under the heal of bigger power cries out for aide and bloody HUGE power crosses the Channel (or the Irish Sea) and helps out the poor unfortunate while helping itself to everything at the table? And usually it's the latter that gets to DEFINE morality rendering the topic of this thread mute, or moot, or myut. Occasionally some harpist from the lower depths survives and renders into poetry something so beautiful that the world remmebers it for a thousand years. And it, of course, is total baloney.

"Ye, I recolleck, now, it were a ROUN' table, 'at's the stuff! an' this're MERlin, wye, 'e 'ad this glass eye, an' 'e could see all a wye to FRANCE!"

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 11:41 PM

And it's not uncommon for the opressed to turn round and kick their opressors behinds. Don't these poeple learn from history?

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: Peace
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:05 AM

If ya have to ask, it likely ain't moral.

I have students who, on occasion, ask if something they are about to hand in for marks "is good enough". I tell them that if they have to ask, they know the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 07:14 AM

Re "morals", I wonder what Mother Teresa would say about this one. IT's got me scratchng my head a bit ...

--"Capital punishment is as fundamentally wrong as a cure for crime as charity is as a cure for poverty."   Henry Ford


... Matador means "killer", by the way, and it is by no means a moral occupation.

LH, your understanding of bulls, bull**** and bull****ers is so deep it never ceases to amaze me. What's wrong with the world that people like you aren't running for Pres!

Subject: RE: BS: Just what are moral issues???....
From: Amos
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 09:33 AM

"Democrats can't connect with the heartland because they don't attend church regularly. If they did, they would realize that there's a big difference between expressing a commitment to moral values (say to your pastor, to fellow congregants, or in an exit poll) and actually wanting to live by them. The bad news for Democrats is that evangelical religious moralism is quite broad. The good news for Democrats is that often, it is not very deep."

From a charming essay on Democrats and their bewilderment:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2109374/.

A