BS: US Politics and Global Warming

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 02:02 PM

The science is pretty solid in some ways about global warming. It happened without industrial greenhouse gases all on it's Ice Age own. But that doesn't mean that greenhouse gases aren't precipitating the global warming.

Now, for those of us here in Minnesota, that ain't such bad news. We, uh, kinda like the globe around here warming up a bit!

But that said, the dangers of greenhouse gases and pollution are becoming alarming, if for no other reason than the rapidity with which they have built up in the atmosphere and are causing serious health effects, effects on agricultural systems, economies, etc.

Then there is that pesky fact that we aren't going to have fossil fuels to kick around for much longer, even if Bush DOES drill in the ANWR and everyplace else on the globe, and strip mine every coal field, and exploit every pocket of natural gas.

We pretty much have used most that stuff up, it's making us sick, when technology should be extending our lives AND the quality of them, that sort of thing.

Not to mention, the fossil fuel economy is bankrupting us ethically, financially, burning up other resources...

The list of reasons why we need to welcome the brave new world of alternatives is a couple of miles long at this point. We need to be worried, because one thing about climates--they change alot faster than than the tectonics do. Which means these changes will effect, if not us, then our kids or theirs.

It ain't about the being of political rightness, it is about sound stewardship, and being proactive in deciding what kind of world we want to live in, considering the limitations over which we have no control.

Can we stop global warming? No. Do we want to try and slow it down? Maybe, maybe not. But we should at least be allowed to discuss it thoughtfully, without getting shouted down by the Republicans and Republicrats, who keep patting us on the head and telling us not to worry, their experts will take care of everything.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: emjay
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:44 PM

From the Anchorage Daily News, Nov. 9, 2004

For decades, an oceaninc and atmospheric pattern known as arctic oscillation has been stuck in a phase that increases warming over parts of the Arctic. In recent years, the pattern has shifted to a more neutral state, "yet the Arctic is still warming and we're still losing sea ice," said Mark Serreze, a researcher with the National Snow and Ice Date Center in Colorado, who contributed to the report.
"This is one of the pieces of evidence that we're starting to see more clearly the effects of greenhouse warming," he said.

Since this is from a wire service, it has obviously been widely circulated. A geologist friend offered her insight into all of this when she said that one of the advantages of being a geologist is that she is able to take a long term look at the problem. A very long look! She sees humanity killing itself off, but the world will go on just as it has through other catastrophic events. She sees that as the solution to a people created problem that people will never attempt to cure.
This thread is evidence of the unwillingness to correct. Just deny, deny, deny. Even here in Alaska where global warming is seen clearly year to year, people deny it or say it is just part of the natural cycle. The quotation cited above seems to say maybe it's not.

For more information of the report go to www.adn.com/links

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: muppett
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 04:36 AM

The end of the last ice age was due to global warming and sea levals rose by several tens of feet, that wasn't due to industry,lack of government policies or the greed of companies. However that's not to say that the modern way of life doesn't contribute towards it, t'other week I was going to a conferance in Rotherham (UK),went in a mini bus with some local residents and we went along the motorway, the journey was only 30 odd miles in length but it took a couple of hours to do it, we got stuck in lines of traffic and the vast majority of them had one person in them. Three or four buses or coaches could have carried these folk, but no what happens instead gridlock, road rage & pollution and they say it'll get worse, Roll on Amergedon!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: freda underhill
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 03:35 AM

I guess the title and responses on this thread say it all - when politics (read business interests) tries to interfere with science, we have global warming being denied by those ideologoically opposed to accepting it is occurring, including those responsible for taking measures to address it.

Boston Globe on global warning 9th Nov 04

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 03:17 AM

Boab,

Have you ever looked at the numbers? The primary cause of climatic change is NATURAL causes, such as volcanoes ( how many major erruptions in the last 20 years?) and solar flux change. The sun is a variable star, to some degree.

Should we try to reduce pollution? OF COURSE. But to decide that that is the cause of the warming is an act of hubris far beyound any that the Bush Administration has ever demonstated. We might slow, or speed things by a percent- but that would take a major effort, and I think that the effort would be better spent using the resources to help ease the REAL shift that will happen, regardless of political decisions.

As for species extinction, that is primarily due to habitat destruction. All we need to do is have mandatory birth control, and reduce the population down to sustainable levels, to keep the level of available animal habitate constant. So, who gets to decide who will have children? (And I mean a serious, population reducing level- like one birth per 10 couples per decade.)You? Me? I certainly don't want that job. Or should we just kill off everyone who disagrees with you, leaving enough room for the animals? I am open to a reasonable method- but the moral bankruptcy is not on my part.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 03:06 AM

You seem confused b.b. Sometimes in denial. Are you saying that man made atmospheric pollution has NO effect on the climate? If you are not, then to advocate letting the status quo prevail reeks of moral bankruptcy. Or are you one of those who have recognised the likely future and has just given up? Global warming is happening NOW at a faster rate by far than has ever been detected through archeological investigation. Reputable science has suggested that the rate of species extinction today is faster than the great extinctions of the dinosaur period. If humankind accepts that their actions are having climatic effects, then it follows that it has a much greater moral obligation to take action to arrest or reverse those effects than any that George Bush ever prayed to his "god" about. The measures promised by the Kyoto accord are woefully inadequate. Those being approached by the US administration are abysmal, and, frankly, cowardly.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 03:03 AM

"And the melting of glaciers is expected to raise world sea levels by about 10 cm (4 inches) by the end of the century."

from the CNN article...

Looks like I was wrong on the feet per century- but I don't know if this includes the polar ice caps, or just glaciers.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 02:10 AM

But, of course, it is all theory, so we can argue about it, as the water rises arond our feet, and the world starves as the food growing regions shift...

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 02:09 AM

Sources?

Books on climatology, history ( think about the viking Greenland colony), basic physics, astrodynamics.... Not everything requires a soundbite from the net.

I am more authoritative on crustal motion- climate is such a transient phenomenom...

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 02:06 AM

crossposted:

I meant that the effect of global warming will be to raise the water level by some feet per year. The first state to go under will be Florida. Look at the elevations, and you will see that the BLUE states will have almost no loss of area.... Pied Piper is really out of line on this one. If anything, all those red states will send population into the blue states, where the liberals can properly educate them and make sure that they vote according to the Party Line.

We are far more likely to destroy enough of the infrastructure, or allow terrorists of some sort to destroy it, so that the poulation will be greatly reduced, without any need to worry about global warming.

Or that asteroid that we should be looking for, but don't quite want to fund the search for is going to hit, and give us a few hundred years of winter- Now that would stop global warming, since once the ice caps build up, they reflect the sunlight that would melt them, and the glaciers would return...

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 02:00 AM

beardedbruce - Sources please.

d

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:58 AM

Even Democrats should be able to move uphill, if they get their heads out of the sand and look at reality....

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:57 AM

BB, if you really think we have the luxury of that kind of timeline left for our species, then feel free to join in the chorus of;

"We don't need to worry about Global Warming,
Stickin my head right back into the saaannnd"

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:53 AM

of course, we will have hundreds of years to sit back and argue over whose fault it is.....

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:50 AM

Global warming is indeed real, and NOT man-made. If one looks at climate over the long term, we have been in a "little" ice age for some time- which got worse in about 1100 AD. Now, the climate is shifting back to the normal that we can expect. The polar ice caps will melt, reducing the reflectivity of the earth even more, and we will have near tropical condition well up towards the poles. Just a natural shift. You can't blame this on modern industry, the Bush administration, or even Diebold. It's just the way things are- so get used to it.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: freda underhill
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:50 AM

new report on warming in the arctic

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: Peace
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:41 AM

Google

Global Warming

and read the latest articles about it. Then, have a good night's sleep. It is NO joke, folks.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:37 AM

That's right, Doug and Martin, keep repeating to yourselves;

"There's no such thing as Global Warming"
"There's no such thing as Global Warming"
"There's no such thing as Global Warming"
"There's no such thing as Global Warming"
"There's no such thing as Global Warming"
"There's no such thing as Global Warming"
"There's no such thing as Global Warming"

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:32 AM

Pied Piper, you are in real serious trouble. You appear to have titivated the appetites of the predators!You will be smothered by words of wisdom. Just look at the MG stuff----
A news item on CNN today [Monday] reported that there was evidence of a looming tragedy due to the melting of the polar icecap, and that this was attributable to global warming. The inevitable editorialising on Blitzer's own channel brought the comment from the bright blonde newscaster that the news wasn't all bad, as it was thought that gas and oilfields in Northern Russia might well become exploitable. As all the posters on this thread so far know, this is typical of attitudes found all the way to the top--and not only in the U.S. The wilfully blind, the greedy, and the plain stupid ones deny the existence of the stone wall ahead. The rest are coming close to despair.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 04:19 PM

Why don't you worry about changing your shorts everyday? Or is it that you have no clean ones because you are worried that you might use up all of the water?

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: DougR
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 04:14 PM

PP: I think you can go back to your cage now. They should have it cleaned up by now.

DougR

Subject: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: Pied Piper
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 12:12 PM

I'm really worried; looking at the map of those states that showed some sense and didn't vote for Bush, what you see is that there all near the coast.
Sea level rise due to global warming (and come to think of it earthquakes) could further reduce the number of decent folks and the handling Rattle Snakes mob could be in permanent control.

PP