'twee voices'

Subject: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST,Big
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 08:03 PM

Have just scanned the radio 2 discussion board and am dismayed at how some respondents can be so aggressively dismissive of the efforts of artists in such perjorative terms.
do they have any idea how much goes into making music public, Of course I am sure they realise that their boldness to do so risks critisism.
At least they make music out there on the airwaves.
....you know what they say about critics...

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: Padre
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 08:05 PM

Sounds like Mel Blanc talking about a vocal trio...'twee voices'

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 11:02 AM

Big, apparently you didn't agree with their assessment of particular artists' voices?

Who are the artists they said had twee voices? I do believe there is such a thing as "twee voice syndrome" in folk, so I'm curious to know.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 12:29 PM

What's "twee" mean?   A cross between two and three?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 12:49 PM

That was me, pursuing the age-old pastime of slagging off the alarming direction of the Mike Harding show on the board hosted by its producers.

To illustrate the 'twee' comment in its full context, here is the full post:

A Black Obsession - Dick Gaughan's Sail On is intended to be interpreted, he says, as a shout of hope in troubled times. It's been an inspiration to many more than me to keep on keeping on.

"Don't waste your time in asking where the time you spent has gone".

Yet I find on last night's MH playback the ultimate travesty of it being warbled by Mary Black as a pretty ditty without expression or the faintest comprehension of its aspirations or meaning.

This follows Ms Black's rendition on the show a couple of weeks ago of Song for Ireland which someone else described as reminiscent of an Edwardian drawing room.

Can we hope for the delivery of a few tons of grit chez Smooth Ops and an end to this preoccupation with the bland Blacks and their ilk?        Or are you planning a twee lisping by Cara Dillon of the Freedom Come-All-Ye next?

No-one disagreed.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 01:00 PM

Different strokes for different folk folks...

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 01:05 PM

Didn't know Martin Gibson frequented the Radio 2 message boards ;~)
Giok

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 01:12 PM

Hmmm...that wouldn't be an example of what I call "twee voice syndrome".

To me, twee voice syndrome bears the mark of on, sometimes two specific characteristics.

First, any maudlin, over the top use stilted emotion in the voice. Men do this much more than women, and I would argue that is more likely a problem with Dick Gaughan's voice than Mary Black's.

The second characteristic is to be found exclusively with the female voice, and the modern folk aesthetic that says a woman's voice for trad music should high and wispy, like what's her name from Altan (cringe). Give me Maddy Prior, Dolores Keane, or Sandy Denny any day!

However, that is not to say I don't like the soprano voice in women singers, as I do. I just like a high voice with clarity, rather than the wispy sort of voice, which always sounds strained and tinny to me.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 01:18 PM

'Twee' is a Briticism. It's general meaning is:

"...excessively or affectedly quaint, sentimental or mawkish, sometimes coupled with words like nauseatingly. It's a strongly negative word, and a very useful one, that is in common British use. It appeared at the beginning of the twentieth century to mean something dainty or sweet, a girly and gushing word."

That's a quote from Worldwidewords website.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 01:28 PM

"We twee Kings from Orient are..."

So Americans don't say "twee"?   You learn stuff on the Mudcat you woudln't learn anywhere else.

........................

"...the modern folk aesthetic that says a woman's voice for trad music should high and wispy" - like Norma Waterson for example?

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 01:31 PM

To clarify yet further (and I hope finally), Mary Black was not described as twee but as bland and lacking expression. The criticism was that her versions of two songs had been used in the MH show when in my (and many other people's) opinion, those by Dick Gaughan would have been more appropriate and representative.

It was Cara Dillon's style of delivery that was categorised as twee (and lacking in grit).

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 01:41 PM

No offense countess richard, but I think your complaint about Dick Gaughan vs Mary Black is without merit.

Also, it reeks of the sort of elitism too often seen in folk forums where Mike Harding is routinely kicked around for not being conventionally traditional enough for conservative tastes in folk music.   

It is simply your preference, not a "fact" that Gaughan's versions are superior to Black's. Also an argument I've seen before in many online folk forums, where posters mistake their personal musical tastes for objective fact.

I'm not familiar with Cara Dillon, so couldn't say whether or not, IMO, her voice has a twee quality.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 01:50 PM

GUEST: Since DG wrote Sail On himself and has been closely associated for many years with Song For Ireland and its writers, I consider his versions to have sufficient authority to be respected above any others I have heard.

I don't know WTF a "conventionally traditional" or "conservative" "taste in folk music" is supposed to be if if you want to argue it out, I suggest your contribution would be better placed on the BBC thread than in this one which seems to wish to confine itself to "tweeness".

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 02:00 PM

countess richard, I have no problem with you having the opinion that Dick Gaughan's versions of either his own or someone else's songs he covers, are the "definitive" versions of the songs IN YOUR OPINION.

I just have a problem with you having a problem with recognizing that your opinion isn't fact.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 02:27 PM

I joined this thread purely because I was being quoted out of context from an entirely different discussion. Unidentified 'GUEST' wishes to discuss two artists who were never mentioned in the first place in the context of the sole term linking these two discussions, i.e. "twee". UG appears to like Mary Black and not Dick Gaughan. That is his/her problem. I really don't care. I deal in

(a) facts
(b) musicality

It is my opinion, however, that Cara Dillon's voice is twee. Some people like it. I would continue to dispute, however, that it is a suiable vehicle for the Freedom Come-All-Ye.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 02:34 PM

Are all these GUEST posts from the same invisible person? If the former, "UG" is a pretty good name, and I recommend adopting it forthwith.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 04:47 PM

Seems pretty strange to say that a songwriter's version of his own song is not authoritative.

As to "tweeness" being a matter of opinion, I would tend to say, "Of course!" It's a quality judgment, and that's always an opinion.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 05:18 PM

I don't think it strange at all that a songwriter's version of their own song may not be "the definitive version".

Of course, can I think of a single example right this moment? No.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 07:13 AM

Tweeness is not solely a matter of opinion, I would say there is probably an absolute and measurable way of looking at it. Fotherington-Thomas dancing among the flowers, or dolls with long skirts that act as loo-roll covers, or Mary O'Hara's singing, are surely twee in an absolute sense. Leadbelly's singing, on the other hand, is demonstrably un-twee. aa is Doc Watson's flat-picking. As to Cara Dillon, I couldnt say, I've never heard her, as far as I know.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 07:14 AM

Sorry, that last GUEST discussing tweeness was me, having technical problems and therefore cookieless.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 07:25 AM

Folk songs, or songs that are destined to become folk songs, don't have "definitive versions", they have variants.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 07:54 AM

There are many contributors on the R2 MB that are musicians/performers, including myself, so we do have have an understanding of "how much goes into making music public". Irrespective of the effort, skill, merit or art, once we perform, we must all be prepared to take praise or criticism, no one has the veto on what is good, bad or mediocre.

So, if you disagree, confront the critics in question on the R2 board rather than here, because just by doing it here you have invited critcism yourself. Ignore what you think might be the weight of opinion, you might bring someone else out into the open to support you; you might prove the whingers wrong.

Whatever side of the fence we are on, we are all entitled to have an opinion, but it is unfortunate when it is made stridently, arrogantly or offensively, not an uncommon occurrence and I'm just as guilty in that respect.

I think it is fair to say that what appears to be jaundiced opinion over on R2, is borne out of frustration with a perceived narrow representation of folk, roots and acoustic music as broadcast by Smooth Ops on behalf of the BBC. There are programmes emerging on the internet and local radio which goes some way to improve this, but it is felt that the BBC is failing in its duty by not doing the same nationally.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 10:22 AM

Personally I feel that there are many twee voices around what can looseley be called the 'folk scene' that for some reason or another get a lot of coverage the above mentioned Cara Dillon for one, the flat monotonous voice of Kate Rusby is another and the forgettable trio from Canada the Be Good Tanyas. I find the last particularly unbeleivable.
I do not listen except on very rare occasions to any smooth ops programmes, mostly I'd rather watch paint dry.
I have no reason to support smooth ops but as they are apparently an independent company then the have to supply a product which they can sell to the BBC. I believe therefore it is ultimately the BBC which is responsible for giving us such crap programmes. Even going back 30/40 years the instructions to singers at the BBC when doing two songs was; "One light, one bright!" Will they ever learn? I doubt it.

Incidentally as an anti-dote if you live in the London area you should if possible tune in to 104.4 FM on Thursday afternoons from 2-3pm.
There you get real music from knowledgeable people such as Reg Hall.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 11:30 AM

you should if possible tune in to 104.4 FM

And if you can't, hear Resonance online here.

Another Resonance presenter Kevin Sheils (of this parish) has started another thread here about The Traditional Hour playlists.

Doesn't mean we're letting up on pestering the hell out of the BBC to give due airtime to our cultural heritage (as opposed to bland, watered down, spun then hung out to dry, anodyne and severely ironed out rip-offs that the suits at the top of R2 have been advised by god-knows-who to serve up instead of traditional and roots-based music). Indeed, the only place to hear this at present on the BBC is on R3 and occasionally on BBC4. It ain't enough...

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 11:40 AM

It seems you men, perhaps, aren't particularly fond of folk music with women's voices, as it is only women that you cite as examples of tweeness, and men that you cite as examples of what you like.

Maybe you should just admit you have a preference for men. :")

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: treewind
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 11:49 AM

No, there are plenty of female folk singers that don't have "twee" voices. June Tabor and Norma Waterson are high-profile examples.
Somebody's already cited Maddy Prior, Dolores Keane and Sandy Denny too.

Anahata
(with another non-twee voice *much* closer to home...)

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 12:04 PM

This is what I posted on the R2 F&A boards ealier today in response to a non-folky hearing Kate Rusby for the first time.

=====================================================================
re: Kate Rusby - Peter Standing 365th post - 13 Nov 2004 12:12

Glad you are enjoying it. There are some other female singers you might enjoy too. Julie Murphy is reckoned to have one of the best voices at the moment, along with the exciting Nancy Kerr (with equally exciting partner James Fagan), Kathryn Roberts (with stunning guitarist Sean Lakeman) and Eliza Carthy. There are plenty of others too, but some of these are an acquired, but treasured, taste, June Tabor being a personal favourite.

Have fun exploring.
=====================================================================

Now I'm not a great fan of Kate, but is it wise or polite to be negative or rude, especially to someone who is new to folk music and is posting for the first time on a board full of hardened folkies? In fact, I can't think of many male singers who I would put in that class of Murphy, Kerr or Tabor, or many male musicians who are of the calibre of Kerr. She is a fine singer, an astonishing fiddle player and can do both whilst step dancing. Talented or what?

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 12:40 PM

another non-twee voice *much* closer to home

...indeed, Mary Humphreys, about whom, coincidentally, I was just writing on said BBC board in the context of her rendition of When Fishes Fly (No my love, not I).

Next in the completely twee-free stakes is Felicity Greenland whose work includes many interpretations of songs from travellers and related social issues. Then there is Chris Coe, voice workshop tutor and heavily involved in extracting every layer of meaning from big ballads. Ditto Frankie Armstrong. And Lynne Heraud.

Maggie Holland, who wrote one of the finest songs of the late 20th century, A Place Called England. And Fay Hield with her scary harmonies with the Witches of Elswick and her duo with Damien Barber.

btw it's unclear whether the UG is questioning my gender or my sexuality, Possibly a reading of Child #68 (Young Hunting) would assist...

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 12:52 PM

I Opined:
Seems pretty strange to say that a songwriter's version of his own song is not authoritative.

And a GUEST replied:

I don't think it strange at all that a songwriter's version of their own song may not be "the definitive version".

Two different things. I said "authoritative", not "definitive".

When someone writes a song, surely as the author his/her version is authoritative. Not everyone is required to conform to the authority, of course. Eventually, with a number of variants out there the "market" will decide that "We consider this to be the definitive version of how this song ought to be thought about."   But the songwriter's version is still weighted with authority.
"Definitive", as I get it, is that status that defines the song in the minds of the body of listeners so strongly that all other versions tend to rise or fall by comparison to that "definitive" version.

Although I regard Peggy Lee's version of "Fever" as definitive of that song, the songwriter's version (if he/she recorded and issued it) would still have the weight of authority.   Stan Rodgers's version of "Barrett's Privateers" is both authoritative and definitive, in my opinion.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 12:56 PM

No, what I'm questioning is whether there are any here who would describe a male folk singer's voice as twee.

I have no problem with countess richard's questioning of their gender or sexuality, really.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 12:59 PM

I included Fotherington-Thomas in my catalogue of tweeness, who, though not a singer, is certainly male. Though possibly not wildly masculine.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: Amos
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 01:01 PM

For those in the dark, a definition of twee:

affectedly dainty or refined
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn


A

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 01:05 PM

I have no problem with countess richard's questioning of their gender or sexuality

I wasn't. I thought you were questioning mine...though on what grounds I know not.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 01:28 PM

You post with the name countess richard and know not?

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 01:33 PM

I included in my definition of tweeness of voice, Dick Gaughan. I don't expect to see any agreement on that opinion coming from those who are praising Gaughan's voice over Mary Black's though.

I would also add Gaughan's former partner in crime (may he RIP) Davy Steele to the list of twee voices that are like nails on the chalkboard to my ears.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 01:34 PM

As I said before:

it's unclear whether the UG is questioning my gender or my sexuality. Possibly a reading of Child #68 (Young Hunting) would assist...

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 01:40 PM

"affectedly dainty or refined"

Really the equivelant of "twee" for male singers would be something more like "hearty" - "affectedly rough or unrefined" - the common factor being that of being over affected and phony.

I can think of a good few male singers who'd qualify for that - most of us from time to time, actually.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 01:43 PM

Davy Steele, to the best of my knowledge, is still with us. Do you mean Bobby Eaglesham?

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 01:48 PM

Just found out that Davy Steele did in fact die three years ago. IMO, both he and Bobby had wonderful voices...

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 01:50 PM

"Possibly a reading of Child #68 (Young Hunting) would assist..."

Talk about twee...

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 01:53 PM

Never heard Tony Rose then? Or Jon Boden?

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: Lizzie in Sidmouth!
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 01:58 PM

Hello Guys! So, I'm sitting here actually listening to sweet Cara Dillon, singing Black is the Colour.......well she sounds just brilliant to me,......very feminine, (is there anything wrong with that?)....gentle...soft....melodic.....young....clear...natural and expressive!

If she was singing like a Docker I'd be a bit worried! Girlies voices come in all shapes and sizes, just like us girlies ourselves.
There's plenty of room for everyone! AND she's married to Sam Lakeman!
What brilliant taste that girl's got!!

It's great to hear someone who actually takes you to a sweet place!
It seems to be a bit of a sin to be feminine nowadays, but quite frankly I'm a bit sick of 'in your face, girl power!' Just my personal opinion though! :-) :-)

So now I've switched and I'm listening to Kate Rusby singing Sir Eglamore! Kate was brilliant at Sidmouth this year, could have listened to a whole extra 2 hours!

She has a really distinctive voice, love her accent and find her voice very attractive and mellow. Love her humour and personality too. Now that she's breaking through those boxes though, she seems to be getting a lot of criticism! Just can't win sometimes! AND she married that lovely John McCusker!


And I agree with Peter above, Kathryn Roberts has another lovely voice, and is often overlooked AND, don't want to keep on about this.....she has also caught herself a Fabulous Lakeman Boy, this time Sean! :-)

So, I reckon the moral here is get yourself a gorgeous voice and land yourself a gorgeous fella!! :-) :-)

Lizzie

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:00 PM

My dear countess, you are missing the point entirely.

This isn't about who one knows, it is about the air of superiority with which one speaks about those whom one knows...

As I stated above, there are 2 similar definitions of the word 'twee'. One is specific to things associated with femaleness, one to things mawkishly sentimental, which is often gender neutral.

It is in the latter category where I would place the voices of Gaughan and Steele. Mawkishly sentimental describes their voices perfectly, IMO.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:07 PM

"Fuckin' fantastic" describes them also. More accurately. IMO.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:11 PM

While it is frowned upon to speak ill of the dead, one male voice I found terribly twee and affected, although his folk credentials and commitment were without doubt is Peter Bellamy. Forever immortalised by the handle 'Larry the Lamb'
Giok

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:14 PM

Well, I was trying to think which male voices I find even more twee than theirs, and came up immediately with Ewan MacColl.

Anyone see a pattern here?

Perhaps it's best to just put these differences of opinion down to the folk generation gap, eh?

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:15 PM

A lack of familiarity with the Young Hunting story plus a lack of acquaintance with two decidedly untwee interpretations of it tends to demolish the pedestal upon which your opinion is teetering.

Oh and I didn't realise this thread had a point. The appearance of the ubiquitous scribbling Lizzie would seem to confirm that at least.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:17 PM

Giok--YES!!!

I hoped someone would eventually surface that understood what I was on about. Peter Bellamy. Thank you. Exactly.

Tweeness has nothing to do with one's folk credentials, it has to do with the musical tastes in the ear of the listener.

It seems to me too many on the folk scene overvalue credentials at the expense of listenability.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:20 PM

Not really the generation gap. Although a wrinkly now, I admire greatly some of the current crop of young andf young-ish singers/performers - Kathryn Roberts, Duncan McFarlane, Miranda Sykes, et many al, none of whom would I describe as twee.

McColl I don't regard as twee, just bloody awful. Just goes to show, as I frequently say on here (and as was the point of my last post), one man's meat etc.....................

S :0)

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: Lizzie in Sidmouth!
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:23 PM

Hello Countess Sweetiepie!

You too eh? Scribbles? :-) Hmmmm.....I'm beginning to see a bit of a linked pattern evolving here. Interesting! Anyway back to 'tweeness'. I've had my scribble so I'll be quiet now!

Just thought it was time someone stood up for poor Cara as she does seem to come in for a bit of nastiness from time to time and life is just too short, really! And besides, I like her anyway!

:-)

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:29 PM

So did that last by nameless GUEST Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:17 PM (get a name!) mean he like Peter Bellamy or he loathed him?

I can't think of any singer whom I'd consider as having more "listenability" than Bellamy.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:31 PM

Amen McG. Just goes to show.............
S:0)

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: shepherdlass
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:38 PM

Oh puh-lease!

Surely all tweeness is relative and depends entirely on what you personally feel is heartfelt? There's no such thing as absolute good taste. And, sorry, but most accusations of tweeness do get directed at women, which is completely down to relative positions of power in dictating taste.

More positively, I'd like to suggest the main problem with Mike Harding's show is the very predictable roster of artists week in, week out, and not actually to do with the abilities of any of those performers who Smooth Ops choose to overexpose. But then, if a national broadcaster gives a production company just 1 hour a week in which to present an accessible folk prog then they'll do just that - and choose the most accessible material. Maybe we should stop carping at Mike Harding and think instead about lobbying the big cheeses at the Beeb for some more time slots.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:38 PM

Her Highness the Countess spake thus:

"A lack of familiarity with the Young Hunting story plus a lack of acquaintance with two decidedly untwee interpretations of it tends to demolish the pedestal upon which your opinion is teetering.

Oh and I didn't realise this thread had a point. The appearance of the ubiquitous scribbling Lizzie would seem to confirm that at least."

Rather proves my point about your insufferable snobbishness, that.

As to whether the thread has a point or not--you might have thought of that before you joined in, since your contribution here certainly has none.

Catty miserable little thing aren't you?

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:42 PM

"And, sorry, but most accusations of tweeness do get directed at women, which is completely down to relative positions of power in dictating taste."

Excellent point, shepherdlass, and quite germane to the way this thread has meandered.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:43 PM

Peter Bellamy was a consummate storyteller, which is what the performance of traditional song should be about. His presence compelled his audience to hang on to every twist and nuance of the tale. Yes, his singing style was entirely artificial. That was because he was a middle-class ex-art student in the late 20th century, not a medieval wandering minstrel. He worked so hard at his art. The shame is that he was not sufficiently appreciated in his lifetime. Nor, indeed, by some now. How I wish he was here to listen to now.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:55 PM

Some very nasty static around here. Ignoring it is the best way.
............................................

"Twee" is one of those value loaded words which distort discussions. By that I mean, instead of discussing the merits and demerits of singers, we get sidetracked into discussing the meanings of words.

If we say a singer's style,is highly emotional, or or free from emotion, or simple, or complicated, or natural or artificial, we can agree about that, and move the argument on to whether we think that these qualities detract from the performance or not.

But a word like "twee" leaves as stuck at the starting line - because agreeing to us that word to describe the performance means that we have dismissed it as essentially worthless.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:55 PM

As to whether the thread has a point or not--you might have thought of that before you joined in

I only "joined in" because I saw I had been quoted out of context from another place by someone called GUEST - Big. Whether this GUEST is the same as all the other UGs is unclear. Besides, it's irrelevant. As a Mudcat member I hardly require "permission" from rambling, shambling GUESTS who forum trawl for snippets to nitpick about for their own, unknown, confused and obscure agenda, to post what I want in an arena where I am known to many and can debate with my peers.

Get a name and a mind, or get out.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:55 PM

countess dearie, it was you who launched the opening volley "That was me, pursuing the age-old pastime of slagging off the alarming direction of the Mike Harding show on the board hosted by its producers."

If you start threads for the express purpose of slagging other peoples' opinions, just what do you expect? Of course you will be perceived as a catty, miserable excuse for a human.

I would say we have one of those insufferable folk club traditionalists here, hell bent on slagging every contemporary singer not to their liking. So much for condemning those who are "aggressively dismissive of the efforts of artists in such perjorative terms", eh?

Which also flies in the face of what ole Bert and Ewan tried to accomplish, while at the same time ironically illustrating Bert & Ewan's failure to achieve their ends when it came to recovering folk music from the drawing room snobs.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 03:18 PM

Woooooooooooooooo-Hoo!

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 03:22 PM

As you yourself said Countess Richard, "his singing style was artificial" and I ask myself WHY? The man was erudiite and a folk scholar, the 'put on' voice in an apparent bid for authenticity sounded so false, and went a long way to negating the learned introduction to many of his songs. As for Ewan McColl, I named my son Ewan in his honour, and it wasn't for Ewan's personality that I did that!
Giok

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 03:36 PM

Oh, I was beginning to thing the UG might just know me, ever-so-slightly, though obviously never listened to a word I have said or written. But the "folk club traditionalist" bit does it: everyone who actually does know me will be helpless with laughter. Those who've known me longest may be cruelly moved to remind me of my undistinguished "contemporary" past. Most people round here are all too familiar with my castigation of the cliquey "folk club" scene and its inherent refusal to even consider new ways of presenting our cultural heritage.

Must be mistaking me for someone else then. And your counting ability is a bit off-beam. I didn't start the thread. I came in at No 5.

Interesting that you're so sure of what Lloyd and MacColl were trying to achieve 'cos I'm quite certain they didn't. But then, I did walk out of the Critics group...Didn't stop Bert from supporting me every step of the way when I started music writing though. That was on the Morning Star...

Dunno who you are, but please go away. I'm bored.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 04:16 PM

Chuckle, chuckle.

Countess Richard, apparently you think we all *should* know who you are (haughty sniff).

I'm entertaining myself on a slow Saturday afternoon by harpooning your pomposity, arrogance, and sense of self-importance.

Now, if I, who have not a clue who you are, have mistaken you for an arrogant folk snob, why do you suppose that is, hmmmm?

Bored you say? Someone holding you hostage here?

I might add that if the folk music programme in question so infuriates you, why in god's name would you listen to it?

Ah right--so that you can mock it in the morning along with those others in your club who despise Mike Harding.

It seems the lot of you need to be reintroduced to humanity--you've been living too long in your self-imposed folk wilderness among the authenticity wolves.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 04:21 PM

I'm typing this on an artificial keyboard attached to an artificial computer, in an artifcial house in a artificial town.

They didn't just grow there by themselves, they were created by human beings using their heads and applying the skills they had artificially learnt.

And that goes for anything created by humans. Writing a book, or, in a pre-literate culture, telling a story, involves all kinds of artificially acquired skills. Yes, and there is also a srong element that comes from aspects of the storyteller or writer that weren't shaped in that kind of way, they did grow naturally.

And when it comes to singing, the same applies. There's a balance between the artificial and the natural, and different people will have that balance in different places. and different listeners have different preferences as to where the balance is struck. Peter Bellamy's singing was indeed towards the "artificial" end of that balance - it was consciously shaped, rather than instinctive. And it was, in my view, brilliant, not in spite if that but through that.

You don't complain that a tightrope walker is "artificial", though of course not everyone likes tightrope walking acts.

There is no compulsion on anybody to like a performer, however skilled they may be. But when we find we don't like something we shouldn't insist that the reason lies in the thing we dislike rather than in ourselves. If I say I don't a cup of coffee because it has sugar I am just saying that I don't like sugar in my coffee, and this coffee has sugar in it. I am not actually criticising the coffee as such.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 05:11 PM

On a lighter note I always thought that the anagram Elmer P Bleaty summed up Peter Bellamy's voice very well.

Personally I preferred Bert Lloyd as I felt with him that it was probably the only way he could sing. Reminded me of my Grandfather after a pint or two singing Nellie Dean.

John, how does Jimmy Miller Mckenzie feel about your choice ?

Twee male voices? How about Litle Jimmy Sizemore? or is that too far back.

Have fun and please lighten up on the vitriol.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 05:27 PM

Coming across the pond, consider John Jacob Niles. I never could stand that self-conscious over-dramatic, over-sentimental falsetto delivery. I couldn't bring myself to listen to more than one song at a sitting.

If that's not "twee", I don't understand the term.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 05:31 PM

I hadn't heard the Elmer P Bleaty thing before--brilliant! Thanks for lightening me up, I needed it desperately.

I like the idea of an exchange on "your favorite twee voices" myself. But I feel I've done enough damage on the twee voice front for one day.

I'd be happy to hear the lists of others, though, so please carry on.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 05:33 PM

We could always do this as a twee voices lightning round, then for the finale have a list of the truly dire...

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 05:39 PM

John Jacob Niles, I'd forgotten him, probably just as well. Apart from music lessons at school he was probably one of the worst things that ever happened to folk song.

I guess that maybe Burl Ives would come under the twee banner too.

Hey I've wasted enough time on this bloody keyboard for tonight, I'm going to put on my Kari Sickenberger CD and pour a wee bourbon.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 09:07 PM

classical music students who graduate
then can't find regular employment
in major orchestras or opera..

student loan repayments & rents due..

suddenly they rediscover a 'life long'love
of folk and roots music
and a favourite old uncle with 'school ties'influence
at BBC radio 2..

= twee

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 09:09 PM

..and another uncle who went to a good school
with someone now important at EMI & the Brits awards..

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 09:25 PM

ps. i'm a new guest..
not one of the previous ones..

gotta figure out how to join up here and fix a board name..

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 05:49 AM

That would be good :~)
Welcome in advance.¦¬]
Giok €¦->

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 07:48 AM

on a seasonal note:-
we twee kings

for the tradtionalists
the twees they do grow high

for eddy cochran fans
twee steps to heaven

But by commom assent, the Godfather Part Twee wasn't as good as the other two.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST,Sarah
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 08:47 AM

Twee Corbies!

Hmmmmmmmm

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 08:53 AM

Please don't encourage him sarah!!
Giok

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 11:19 AM

There's a very appropriate quote in the Observer today, in Peter Culshaw's review of Andy Cronshaw's "Ochre" album, which is a multi-cultural look at some English tradfolk tunes. The relevant bit of the review is:

"The disc is mostly instrumental( so you don't have to put up with twee lyrics about forlorn maidens)..."

   This seems to be a resonable comment, the "folk" scene is certainly infested with tweeness. I would add myself that, as far as I can remember, I have never encountered tweeness in the context of a traditional folk performance. Tweeness always seems to me to be added by non-traditional performers doing traditional material(whether classical arrangements, revivalists with guitars and long hair, or children being forced to dance round maypoles). Or alternatively, tweeness is mostly frequently inserted by modern songwriters working within the folk scene and getting their work classified as "folk", either by themselves or by the media.
    As a further comment on whether tweeness is always associated with females, I would say that the best way to explain the word "twee", to anybody who is unfamiliar with it, would be to suggest they listen to "Puff the Magic Dragon" by Peter, Paul and Mary; and two thirds of them were male. This is also a good example of tweeness being unfairly associated with folk. By broadening your definition of folk to include drivel like that, you inevitably tar the world of folk music with a twee brush, when real folk is completely innocent in this respect.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 11:47 AM

How could you, I was crazy about mary Travers when I were a lad? Twee indeed. Breathes there a soul so dull that wouldn't have liked to romp with Mary like a red blooded male in the morning mist in a land called honollee....

You're just feeling your maleness challenged like Germaine greer said in The Twee Male Eunuch.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 12:34 PM

Drummer this affliction of yours is getting a grip, it may not be painfull to type, but it sure is painfull to read. I suggest tweetment ;~)
Giok

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 04:41 PM

weelittledrummer: you wilfully misinterpret me. Just because peole are twee is no reason at all not to romp with them. Some of my best romps have occurred with twee people., in honnollee, the local barn. bed or whatever.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: Davetnova
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 04:09 AM

You get special jackets for it made out of tweed.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: JulieF
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 05:53 AM

I'm of the opinion that tweeness tend to largely lie in the material not the voice. There a very few really good versions of some of the 'twee' victorian scottish songs. Shortbread box stuff. However, there are a lot of songs which loose their power and could be interpreted as twee depending on the delivery of the singer. As a female singer with a reasonbaly high voice at the top of my range and possibly a tendance to 'wisp' ( especially if I'm not got the breathing right), I am always aware I could sound 'twee'. Or worse - get the breathing right - give it full belt and sound operatic !

Another major contibution to tweeness which has not been touched on is the accomaniment. How many powerful songs are plunged it tweeness not by the singer but by overwrought accomaniment ?

Julie

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 07:40 AM

John Jacob Niles wrote or rewrote some bloody good songs, even if he did tend to make out he'd collected them when he probably didn't. (Which can be seen as a kind of modesty - better than all the other people who have claimed to write songs which were in fact collected. And collected royalties on them too.)

Some people sing in a low voice, some sing in a high voice. That's just as characteristic of traditional singers as revival singers. Sneering at singers because they sing in what the sneerer sees as an innapprpriate register is just silly.

"Twee" is a value judgement, not a description. Why not instead describe the qualities which, because of the way we are ourselves, we do not like? Why bundle them up and stick a word on them that suggests that there is necessarily something objective about our personal tastes?

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 08:07 AM

McGrath: i think you are getting a bit confused about objectivity and personal tastes and tweeness. I entirely agree that you cannot make out a moral or rational taste for preferring Leadbelly to Peter, Paul and Mary. There's no arguing about taste. But to make the leap from that to claiming that there is no objective difference beteen leadbelly and Peter,Paul and Mary is a step too far for me. It's patently bloody obvious there's a difference. I entirely respect your right to prefer which you like, but to pretend there are the same is perverse. And the difference between them(or one of the differences) , is that PPM are twee and Leadbelly isnt.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST,DMcF
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 08:58 AM

Wow!
Reading this thread made my lunchbreak sizzle!
Such fire emerging from a thread concerning the 'meek' - gasp!
I even got a mention in there too
(Ta Strollin J! - must get you a pint when I gig down your neck of the woods again).

Don't give up scribbling Liz - always enjoyed your comments on the Beeb board.
Very conversational....It's been like getting to know you - like a character off Mrs Dale's!

I'll just pop an instrumental CD on - some Morris tunes perhaps, then no one can come into my office
and say 'Who's the twee sounding singer you've on?'

What I really wanted to do was start a thread to plug the forthcoming Swarb-Aid gig near here -
but what with the (as Harry Hill would shout...) FIGHT!!!! - I'll have to wait till later.
Warm hugs to all - Duncan
(Guest only as, once again, cookieless!
Curse this Education Authority Network!)

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 09:16 AM

I don't think we actually disagree here, except about linguistics. I'm not saying there's no objective difference, I'm objecting to the arbitrary use of a word that blurs the difference, and lends a spurious objectivity to dubious personal tastes.

If I'm making an unfavourable comparison between PPM and Leadbelly - and I would be if the matter arose - it'd be on the basis of the aspects about they treated their songs. "And I found it twee" might be a valid comment to add, but only as an indication of personal taste. If I was talking about PPM that would indicate that my personal tastes were reasonable enough; if I was talking about Peter Bellamy, on the other hand...

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 10:52 AM

Someone (I'm too lazy to go back and find out who) called Ewan McColl's singing twee.

As I see it, his renderings of traditional ballads, chanties, and so forth are anything but twee. Many (maybe not all) of the songs he wrote for his own singing seem a bit over the top to me, not in the singing but in the song itself. This may be related to the political or polemic nature of so many of his songs.

I'm sure there are other singers where a similar comment may be made.

Dave Oesterreich