What are jubal hounds?

Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 07:54 PM

It's also unwise to make assumptions based on a misunderstanding of syntax and etymology, and the fact that this song has been found only once, ever, with "jubal" (however spelled) in it; and that in the Edwardian period. As I've said already, find me a single example of the biblical jubal used adjectivally, ever, and I'll concede that you may have a point. Until then, "Nerd's" OED definitions are all we need. They answer the question easily, and from proven usage. All the biblical jubal arguments are based on pure speculation unsupported by evidence of any kind.

By all means disagree; but do offer real evidence based on actual usage. Until someone can do that, I'd consider the conversation closed.

Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: Nerd
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 08:54 PM

Yes, I am a Nerd. But being a Nerd does preclude being right...often just the opposite!

Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: GUEST,Uncoknight
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 01:32 PM

I grew up attending a Primitive Baptist Church where my grandfather preached. We sang a cappela from a hymnbook called "The Good Old Songs". Many of the pieces in this book go back to the time of Isaac Watts but in this collection few few authors, if known, were credited. One of the hymns, titled "Watchman", had a word that I have wondered over many times through the years : "Then the jubil trumpet sounding shall awake from earth and sea all the saints of earth now sleeping clad in immortality." I always assumed this was a dialect word, short for jubilant, but never knew. Some of my friends--Hicks-- from Beech Creek in the next county used the words "jobal" hunter in their variant of the ballad about the wild boar. This was their hearing of the word "jovial". In Appalachian dialect, which derives mainly from the traditional speech of Great Britain, "o's" and "u"s are frequently substituted for each other as in "bumb" for "bomb", "dunkey" for "donkey", etc. although the o in ""jobal" is long o.
    I doubt whether the singers of these songs over the generations put any worry or special significance as to this words meaning although it is very interesting to me to learn so much fascinating history and possible origins to "jubal".

Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: Gurney
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 04:12 AM

From the 'Dictionary of Archaic Words,' compiled 1850.

'Jub. A slow trot.'   So, maybe, hounds that are followed on foot, as are beagles?

Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 06 Jun 05 - 04:02 AM

I agree totaly with jubile being the meaning (after all it's not a deep-seated psychological tale from fox's POV), and would like to point out another reason why the Biblical Jubal is a dead-end. The etymology has nothing to do with running, but probably means the ram. Reffers to him being the head of his clan, not running or joy or the Devil.

Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: GUEST,Max Johnson
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 08:13 AM

I appreciate that this thread is nearly six years old, but I felt moved to contribute.

I suggest that the word 'jubal', in this song, is a mis-hearing at some time in the past of the word 'jubilant', which:

a) is very close to 'jubal',
b) is in common useage,
c) scans,
d) makes more sense.

Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: C-flat
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 08:37 AM

In the Hebrew bible Jubal is described as "son of Lamech, ancestor of all who played the lyre and pipe"

Jubal hounds would be a good description of the howling-baying pack.

Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 10:40 AM

Max Johnson, why dismiss or oversimplify the discussion when parsing the possible meanings gives us so much more interesting material to consider? The words that sound like words that appeal to the modern ear may have possessed far different meanings in earlier iterations.

This was a great little thread, I enjoyed re-reading it, though I am saddened to see that several participants are either gone (Malcolm) or gone missing (TheBigPinkLad).

SRS

Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: GUEST,Max Johnson
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 12:05 PM

Stilly River Sage.

I'm not sure in what way I might have dismissed the discussion. I certainly made an attempt to find a solution on planet Earth. If my 'oversimplification' has temporarily derailed your train of thought then I sincerely apologise.

Max.

Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 02:21 PM

"Jovial hounds" is another possible mispronunciation, alongside "joyful".

Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: ClaireBear
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 02:37 PM

Guest Max -- thanks for wading into the treacherous waters of a Mudcat lyrics discussion to venture a guess (especially as your take on "jubal hounds" is so close to mine)!

Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 06:26 PM

Why do we dismiss the Romany "jougal" for "dog"?. It would be a plausible reverse order for "hound-dog". Do we know whether Mr Pole was Romany or traveller?

Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 05:28 AM

'Jougal' - of course! Mr Pole was a fan of The Magic Roundabout!

How did we miss it?!

Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 04:23 AM

right, this is a bit tongue in cheek.
But the first thing that comes to mind when i hear Jubal is the Handel aria ' Oh had I Jubal's Lyre, or Miriam's tuneful voice' (if I've got it right.
So the author was a member of the Huddersfield Choral Soc. (now someone will tell me it wasn't collected in H!)

Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 03:35 PM

Coincidental-
Looking at breeders' records I found a West Highland White Terrier whose name was Sir McDuff of Jubal. The name is also used by a breeder of Afghan hounds.

Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 05:26 PM

Here in the UK only one breeder may use a given prefix or suffix (eg Lokmadi Highspot, or Hurwyn Calypso at Lokmadi) so the breeder (or in some cases owner) of the Westie and the Afghans should be the same.

Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: GUEST,fret monkey
Date: 24 Jul 21 - 06:34 AM

Where I grew up in central England that line was always sung as “bugle hounds”. Foxhunts used hunting horns (also called hunting bugles) to rally the foxhounds, so “bugle hounds” makes perfect sense. This may only be a local interpretation of the song, but that subtle variation over geography and time is one of the great things about folk music.

Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: leeneia
Date: 24 Jul 21 - 10:12 AM

I agree with those who think 'jubal' is a mistake for something else. People have a for substituting a word with similar stress and vowels for a word they can't really recall.

From the Twa Sisters
   Here's two little sisters walking along...
   Here's two royal sisters walking along....

Wildwood Flower
   I'll twine with my mingles of raven-black hair...
   I'll twine mid the ringlets of my raven-black hair...

Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: Felipa
Date: 24 Jul 21 - 01:01 PM

The Hurwyn kennel affix is used by a someone who has pointers and setters and the Lokmadi affix by a dachshund breeder and exhibitor. Are Richard Bridges' names such as Hurwyn Calypso at Lokmadi real or fictional? Kennel affixes are registered with a Kennel Club or Canine Association in one's own country so they may duplicate a name used in some other country. Also you can register a dog with a made-up affix that isn't official recognized as long as it isn't too similar to an already registered affix. The Jubal Afghans are based in the U.K. and the westie, Sir McDuff of Jubal, competed in an obedience trial in the U.S.; my guess is that there is not a human connection between the West Highland White Terrier and the Afghan Hounds. It would be interesting if it turned out that the proprietor of Jubal afghans had been inspired by the foxhunting song to chose the affix == if the chosen breed were Afghan hounds, that would seem more likely.

yes, I amuse myself with dog names. I also saw mention of Jubal Pekingese dogs online also, apparently based in Australia (but the website doesn't look very reliable to me)

Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 25 Jul 21 - 05:24 AM

I recognised the word the first time I heard the song, I think it was used in West Somerset dialect, and it was used to describe a joyful trumpeting sound.

I think that I have sung it in a West Gallery hymn but it is not in "Trumpet" or "Sound, sound your instruments of joy", which were my first thoughts.

It is in "What shall be my heavenly name?" in the first line: "When the jubal trump has sounded", but I don't think I have ever sung that one.

Robin

Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: Felipa
Date: 25 Jul 21 - 06:25 AM

I like Silly River Sage's suggestion:
"This would lead me to interpret "Jubal Hounds" as the dissonant clamoring barking of dogs"

second choice is a mondegreen

Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: keberoxu
Date: 26 Jul 21 - 06:29 PM

Thanks for the earworm, everybody,
I've had Handel arias running through my head for days now.

Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 01:40 AM

I've just discovered the german word jubeln meaning to cheer.

Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: r.padgett
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 09:27 AM

Old Testament
the alleged inventor of musical instruments ( Genesis 4:21) from dictionary via google

I go with "jubal hounds" and the noise musical or otherwise made by fox hounds

Ray

Subject: RE: What are jubal hounds?
From: Reinhard
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 09:38 AM

I've just discovered the german word jubeln meaning to cheer.

Yes but only in the sense of rejoicing. To cheer in the sense of rooting for your football side would be 'anfeuern' in German.