 sj |
||
|
||
BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow...
|
|
|
Subject: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Bobert Date: 11 Feb 05 - 07:10 PM Lynne Stewart, the attorney who was charged by the US Justice department of collaborating in terrorism with her client, the blind cleric Shiek Omar Abdel Rahman, was today convicted. This trial, in which the Justice Department pulled out all the stops in not allowing this woman to be fairly represented, sends an eerie message to trial lawyers everywhere to play by the Bush Justice Department's rules or face sidbarment, fines and imprisionment. Stewart, age 65, faces up to 26 years in prison for th crime of defending her client. The Bush Justice Department is out of control. In the face ot court decisions ordering it to provide legal services to detainess at Guantanemo Bay, it has flicked it's nose. It has flicked it's nose at the Geneva Accords. Ms. Stewart's conviction today may mark the day when our judiciary gave in to the brownshirts... Bobert |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Amos Date: 11 Feb 05 - 08:02 PM Bobert: The report I heard was her offense was not defending him but acting as a courier between her client and others on the outside, not connected witht he defense. Which was it? A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Bert Date: 11 Feb 05 - 08:26 PM US Justice - kind of an oxymoron that. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Chris Green Date: 11 Feb 05 - 08:31 PM You're taking the piss, right? They're indicting a barrister for representing a client? If that is the case, the law is truly an ass. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Sorcha Date: 11 Feb 05 - 08:34 PM I'm with holding judgement until I know more, but I really wouldn't doubt it in these days. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 11 Feb 05 - 09:36 PM One charge, she issued press release(s) to the press (where else) regarding her client's desires about a cease-fire in the Mideast, as I understand it, despite a court order not to commmunicate with the press, and despite her own express agreement not to do so. This had nothing to do with defending him in the case before the court. There was another charge which I disremember, but as I recall it essentially represented (as did the above) instructions to his terrorist followers in the Mideast. Again, nothing which would be legitimate representation by a lawyer in defending a case. Incidentally, there was NO denial that she had done these acts. Dave Oesterreich |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 11 Feb 05 - 09:37 PM Posted that too quickly. This was not a blow, severe or otherwise, to the US Justice System. Dave Oesterreich |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: GUEST Date: 11 Feb 05 - 11:41 PM Well, lawyers used to be called advocates, didn't they? InOBU posted a thread about this when Stewart was first indicted, and I had a somewhat snide response at the time. I feel a bit differently now. Stewart does not deny the accusation that she smuggled a statement out of the prison and released it to Reuter's. But the charge ("preparing to aid a conspiracy" or some convoluted crap like that) makes it quite clear that the DoJ was ready and eager to pounce on and make an example out of her, though little harm was done as a result of her actions. Incoming Justice secretary Alberto Gonzalez immediately stated that the verdict was an important victory in the fight against terrorism. Be afraid. Be very afraid. I know I am. Michael |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: CarolC Date: 11 Feb 05 - 11:53 PM Does anybody know if there will there be an appeal? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Greg F. Date: 11 Feb 05 - 11:55 PM This was not a blow, severe or otherwise, to the US Justice System. Keep repreating that to yourself when they come for you, Dave. It may help. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: katlaughing Date: 11 Feb 05 - 11:56 PM Yes, she has vowed to appeal. Here is what she was convicted of: Convicted of conspiracy, providing material support to terrorists, defrauding the government and making false statements, a tearful Stewart insisted she did nothing wrong after taking over Abdel-Rahman's case and representing him until her arrest in 2002. The blind cleric was convicted in 1995 of plotting to blow up New York landmarks and assassinate Egypt's president. Here is an interesting take on it, by someone who knows her: CounterPunch. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Bill D Date: 12 Feb 05 - 12:07 AM boy, I dunno about this one! I have suspicions about everything this administration and its justice dept. do........but they 'seem' to have strong evidence that she not only 'represented' the sheik, but helped him transmit messages designed to cause harm. It IS possible that people I don't like can accidently get it right now & then. I simply do NOT know whether or not she was aware of the import of her behavior, and to be blunt, neither do any of you. I think every client has the right to a fair trial and competent representation by an attorney, but some attorneys get caught up in the 'cause' and go beyond legal and honorable actions. Who knows what really happened, and what they were thinking? I'm not sure Alberto Gonzalez does, but I KNOW I don't. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Bobert Date: 12 Feb 05 - 08:06 AM The less-than-funny thing about the statement that she made is that e Shiek Rahman was allowed monthly telephone contact with his wife and was telling her the same thing so his feelings about the cease fire weren't exactly a well kept secret... Bobert |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Greg F. Date: 12 Feb 05 - 09:32 AM And factor into this the fact that the courts have declared the Guantanamo operation & its "security" measures unconstitutional.... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: DougR Date: 12 Feb 05 - 12:02 PM Acting as a courier, Amos. Of course the "Court of Mudcat" opinion SHOULD override any decision of a jury who heard all the evidence, though, right? DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 12 Feb 05 - 05:31 PM Greg F said: And factor into this the fact that the courts have declared the Guantanamo operation & its "security" measures unconstitutional.... It doesn't factor at all. This is a completely different set of facts, under a completely different set of laws, occurring in the continental United States instead of outside, regarding actions taken by the military and/or CIA versus actions by US civilian prosecutors (and on and on and on). The only function of "factoring in" the Supreme Court Guantanamo decision is an attempt to muddy the waters. Dave Oesterreich |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Peace Date: 12 Feb 05 - 05:49 PM 'Of course the "Court of Mudcat" opinion SHOULD override any decision of a jury who heard all the evidence, though, right?' Doug, I think many people don't trust the court system under Bush and his friends. That may be a more fundamental thing than anyone is willing to admit. When the courts can be manipulated, and when law is no longer sacrosanct, then the very concept of democracy is in doubt. I don't think the "Court od Mudcat" will decide anything to do with this case, but it should allow you to see that not all people are as happy with your government as you seem to be. No offense meant, Doug. Bruce M |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Bobert Date: 12 Feb 05 - 08:36 PM And, Uncle DaveO, I would agree that these are not the same case but both represent a general attitude that since after all it is a "WAR AGAINST TERRORISM" that anything goes... Do you realize there were tens of thousands of phone calls by Lynne Stewart that were tapped? If all they could pin on her that she publicly stated what her clients feelings on the cease fire, which were also conveyed to his wife, then I'm thinkin' "Hey, if this woman is so dangerous then why didn't they find more stuff on her?" I mean, thousands of phone conversations? Let' get real. But, like the "deatineees", who are being torturedas we speak in Guantanemo Bay (violating Genva accords that the US expects other countries to afford any of our service people) the Bush folks just couldn't really give a tinkers damn about law, domestic or international. They got a big stick and they are definately in the wackin' mood. Bobert |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: dianavan Date: 12 Feb 05 - 11:10 PM The justice system was set up to protect the male dominated, white, ruling class. Whats new? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Richard Bridge Date: 13 Feb 05 - 05:48 PM This may raise the hare that while a jury may well be the last defender against the overweening state, it may also be a tool for the unjust repression of the unpopular. This is nothing ot do with the actual facts of this case, just a general observation on what might have happened. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 13 Feb 05 - 06:31 PM She was convicted of doing what she confessed to (even bragged about) doing. Her "defense" was really an argument in mitigation, seems to me. I don't believe it properly mitigates, but that's where it falls in the orders of proof. Dave Oesterreich |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Feb 05 - 06:35 PM The fact that a jury convicted the lady doesn't necessarily mean too much. Juries get things wrong often enough. Just the other day Tony Blair has just made an official apology (after all these years) for the shocking injustice that jailed the Guildford Four and the McGuire Seven. I imagine that in time there may well be similar epxressions of shame and regret by an American president for the things which are being done today in the torture cells of Guantanamo and and elsewhere. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Richard Bridge Date: 13 Feb 05 - 06:45 PM "Convicted of conspiracy, providing material support to terrorists, defrauding the government and making false statements" C'mon Dave, those would be funny things to brag about. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Bobert Date: 13 Feb 05 - 08:03 PM And further more, when the Justice Departmant wants to win, they win. If they don't, as oin the case of providing the detainees in Guantanemo Bay, they just ignore the court's orders. So either way, they win... But fir PR puposes, yes, I'm sure that the Bushites would love to have every right winged nutball activist approved by Congress so they wouldn't have to be bothered by the law at all... I mean, let's get real here. This trial was enough a farce. The judge allowed the prosecutors to show video tapes of bin Laden and the tapes of 9/11 but no testimony of the Shiek's wife who would have testified that what Stewart said in public were things that the Shiek had also told her to day to the public. Now a champion of liberty faces 26 years in prison for, ahhhh, I'm not too sure what.... Meanwhile, Bush and his thugs have killed over 100,000 innocent Iraqis and Bush and his thugs are the heros??? Can anyone explain how this has occured? Bobert |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: GUEST Date: 13 Feb 05 - 08:06 PM The justice system was set up to protect the male dominated, white, ruling class. Whats new? Bullshite. Tell that to a divorced guy. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Once Famous Date: 13 Feb 05 - 08:11 PM I hope she rots in jail. Throw away the key. Thanks. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 14 Feb 05 - 12:12 PM "C'mon Dave, those would be funny things to brag about." Sure would. Sure was. But she was proud of the acts she committed, that she confessed to, the commission of which were not actually in issue in the trial. Her "defense" was that she was justified by her claim that she was representing her client. That's mitigation, if anything. Dave Oesterreich |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Kim C Date: 14 Feb 05 - 12:32 PM Rahman was convicted in 1995. Who was President then? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: DougR Date: 14 Feb 05 - 12:40 PM No offence taken, brucie. But the fact that many (maybe most) Mudcatters don't trust the U. S. justice system is not news to me. To most Mudcatters, it seems, they are in a constant state of having their rights abused by the government. I wonder if they would be treated any better by a government headed by Bin Laden? Hmmmm? (to borrow an expression usually associated with Bobert). DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Feb 05 - 02:13 PM There are very few governments in countries with settled democratic systems which it is possible to imagine running something comparable to Guantanamo Bay. Maybe places like Uzbekistan, Saudi Arabis, Belarus, and true enough, if Bin Laden was running a country... Given the number of cases where it has turned out that people who have been imprisoned for years, sometimes on Death Row, were completely innocent, can anyone say they really "trust" the US justice system? At best with any justice system, it has to be a cross-your-fingers-and-hope for-the-best kind of trust, combined with trying to find ways of making it better, and cobbling up some kind of correction for mistakes that have ruined people's lives. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Richard Bridge Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:02 PM I think you may have the wrong end ofthe stick about my comment, Dave. You said she admitted to the following: - "conspiracy, providing material support to terrorists, defrauding the government and making false statements" Did she admit to conspiring, ie the agreement with another or others to do an unlawful act? Did she admit to providing support to terrorists, and amongst other things that the acts she was doing were providing support to anyone and that that person was a terrorist (not the same thing as charged with terrorist offences)? What was the fraud to which she admitted? What was the statement she admitted making and did she admit that it was false? She may very well have stated that she did certain things, and your judgement may be that they fell within the definitions under your law of the offences of which she was convicted, but did she admit as set out above? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: DougR Date: 15 Feb 05 - 01:32 PM McGrath: (Thread creep warning)there is no solid evidence that the detainees in Cuba were mistreated. There may have been instances of individuals being mistreated by certain individuals (however I know of none), but there was no government policy that dictated mistreatment. If you have evidence (not opinion or guesses of what might have happened) I'd like to see it. DougR P. S. No point in directing me to some article in The Guardian. If you do, I'll refer you to a Rush Limbaugh column. :>) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 15 Feb 05 - 02:09 PM I said she admitted to the acts (such as issuing the news release(s) and directly contacting the Sheikh's followers in the Middle East to pass his views along to them). What you listed are the charges, which are conclusions which refer to the acts. Any criminal charge is a claim that A. Certain acts occurred; and B. That those acts contravened certain statutes. In this case she freely admitted the acts, so the Government wouldn't really have had to prove them otherwise, although I'm sure they did, as a matter of trial strategy. Then the only question for the court and jury was whether those acts violated the statutes cited. The decision on that score comes to such questions as, "Given the acts, can one conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that she agreed with someone to accomplish a violation of the law? And was even one action taken in furtherance of that agreement?" If the jury can conclude that, that's a conspiracy conviction. I have not read the indictment, nor yet the transcript of the trial (if it has been transcribed yet), so I can't give you chapter and verse on an allegation of fraud. She didn't have to admit to "conspiracy" or to "fraud"; those are ultimate legal conclusions, which are for the trier of fact. "Providing support to terrorists" is another conclusion, based on the objective facts. Clearly, if she had admitted to "fraud", or to "conspiracy", or go "supporting terrorists", there would be no need for a trial. Indeed, by her pleas of not guilty she denied those things. That's why we have trials. Dave Oesterreich |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Feb 05 - 02:25 PM I won't bother, Doug. Sooner or later the allegations which have been widely published in a whole range of media, right across the political spectrum, will be properly tested. I am sure that in time all decent Americans will be very angry indeed at what has been done in their name - and I suspect that those who will be most angry will be those who believed and trusted in this administration, and who will see that trust as having been betrayed. (And here is a story from a few months back carried in the Daily Telegraph, a right-wing Tory supporting daily, but with a well-deserved reputataion as a pretty good newspaper - Interrogation abuses were 'approved at highest levels') |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Don Firth Date: 15 Feb 05 - 02:38 PM Doug, there is a substantial number of people being held in Guantanamo incommunicado, without being charged with anything, and denied the services of an attorney. If that isn't mistreatment, then what would you call it? I call it fascist tactics. And just remember: if it can happen to them, it can happen to you. Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Susu's Hubby Date: 15 Feb 05 - 04:59 PM Bobert's original post just seals the deal on how a lot of uninformed liberals like to throw around just bits and pieces of what they hear as a condemnation of the current administration without getting the full story. With a nephew in Afghanistan and several close friends in Iraq, I'm glad the people that they "could" be fighting are down keeping Castro company. The only thing that I disagree with is that they are in such a beautiful place. (Even through bars, they can still see the beauty of the area). They should have been sent to the middle of the pacific ocean on a one way boat straight to the bottom. After all, al queda knows how to blow up boats. Just ask the families of the sailors that were on the USS Cole. It would be interesting to hear their thoughts. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: curmudgeon Date: 15 Feb 05 - 05:14 PM Just what is it about "...until proven guilty" that you don't understand? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Feb 05 - 05:45 PM Even through bars, they can still see the beauty of the area But ain't that a classic? And of course, when they've got blindfolds on they can imagine the view. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Bobert Date: 15 Feb 05 - 05:49 PM Ahhhhh, perhaps the very fact that lots of folks get wrongly convicted, curmudgeon... They should change it to "until proven guilty unless we screwed up...". That is more like what has happened in Lynne Stewarrt's case and it was the judge who did the most screwing up by allowing the DoJ prosecutors way too much free reign. What is going to come out of this conviently for the Bush administartion is that now that the courts are ordering the Bush folks to allow detainees in Guantanemo Bay legal counsel these detainees will be hard pressed to find any attorney willing to take the risk of becoming, ahhhhh, another detainee!!! Good move for the facists. Bad move for the justice system. Bobert |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Kim C Date: 15 Feb 05 - 06:02 PM If she did wrong, and was convicted - isn't that how it's supposed to work? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Feb 05 - 06:08 PM I'm sure that the authorities will be able to come up with legal counsel who will do what is required. You know what I'm reminded of? Those episodes of the later Star Trek series where the good guys run up against legal system run by Cardassians and suchlike who operate very much on these sort of lines. This site here sums up the Cardassian approach: A quick lesson in Cardassian "Justice" * You are denied knowledge of what you are accused of until your trial. * You can never know who your accusers are- for "security" reasons. * Trials are a show for the public, to explain how the guilt was determined, not to find a verdict. * The verdict is always predetermined- guilty. * The duty of your Consort is get you to valiantly accept the charges and execution. Does anything sound familiar here? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Bobert Date: 15 Feb 05 - 06:11 PM I don't know, Kim. How about asking any one of the black texas males who were coercced into confessions with all kinds of porscutorial promises, then defended by incompetent court appointed lawyers and then put to death by George Bush and his new Attorney General? Yaeh, ask them? Bobert |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: DougR Date: 15 Feb 05 - 06:41 PM Wow, Bobert, you really ARE willing to stetch aren't you? McGrath: I'll look forward to seeing that TV expose and the attendant proof that goes along with it. I think U. S. TV networks will be very careful about releasing information that is not correct after the Dan Rather debacle on CBS. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Bobert Date: 15 Feb 05 - 06:54 PM Where is the stretch, Dougie. Hey, you have a Republican governor halting executions in Indiana, maybe it was Illinois, but either way, it shows that there is concern about innocent poeple being killed by the state. Now Texas is well known, compared to Indiana or Illinois, as a place where ya don't write no bad checks becuase them folks will lock yer butt up for jaywalkin'... So you look at the number of people executed in texas, the execution capitol of the universe, where things haven't changed much in the last 50 years when it come to cops and prisons. Now ya look at the number of folks who have been exhonorated in Indiana or Illinois where folks *try* to get it right before executin' folks and then look back at Texas.... Hmmmmm? No, I don't have the proof, but just pure simple logic and common sense will tell ya that many a black male was put to death in Texas, while Bush and Gonzolez refused to ever ask for a review... If you think that is a stretch then you need to go back and take a common sense remedial course, Dougie.... But, heck, I don't care if ya ain't gotta a lick of sense... I still likes ya.... Sniff... Now come on over here an' get a big 'ol hug... Bobert |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Feb 05 - 07:09 PM There's a real issue here, Doug, it isn't just about point-scoring and entertainment. The right of prisoners to humane treatment and a fair trial, and the duty of the authorities to recognise and defend that right, is something which should transcend political differences. And torture is something which can never be tolerated or excused. People have died to preserve those rights and those duties, and when they are set aside by those with the power to set them aside, this is an act of betrayal. I anticipate a time will come when this whole episode will be something for which all decent Americans will be ashamed. As has happened in respect of similar episodes in the past. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Richard Bridge Date: 15 Feb 05 - 07:15 PM Dave you originally said "She was convicted of doing what she confessed to (even bragged about) doing" Glad I seem to have changed your mind.. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Bobert Date: 15 Feb 05 - 07:26 PM And to piggy back on what McG has pointed out, beyond torture being internationally illegal, if you don't want it to one day occur to yer kids or grandkids, than you oughtta be on the side of obeying international law... Bobert |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Susu's Hubby Date: 15 Feb 05 - 07:31 PM "And torture is something which can never be tolerated or excused." This brings up an interesting point. Imagine that we caught a terrorist, it doesn't matter from what group. He says that in less than an hour, there will be a massive explosion that will kill more than ten thousand innocent people. He refuses to tell the authorities where the bomb is. With only an hour left, are you willing to look the other way and let ten thousand innocent people die just for the sake of this terrorist? What are you going to do to make him tell you where it is. Plead and beg? Are you going to tell him how sorry we are for running him out of his country in hopes that this will sway him one way or the other? Don't tell me that this isn't a valid question. It is very valid. Especially in today's atmosphere. As a compassionate human being, as a lot of liberals or even Bobert's "progressives" ( a rose by any other name is still a rose.)claim to be...how can you choose 1 terrorist over ten thousand innocent civilians? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Greg F. Date: 15 Feb 05 - 07:37 PM There's a real issue here, Doug, it isn't just about point-scoring and entertainment. For Dougie, its ALWAYS just about point scoring and entertainment. Nothing substantive need apply. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Bobert Date: 15 Feb 05 - 07:45 PM Anyone so messed up in their thinking that they would kill 10,000 people ain't gonna give up nuthin'. Heck, you got folks willin' to blow themselves up in order to take out maybe 3 or 4 of the folks on what they percieve to be the other side (i.e. enemy). More defective thinking on hubby's part grasping at anything hubby can to justify US torture... Next time make it space aliens who are going to blow up the entire earth. Oh, how scarey.... Bobert |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Bat Goddess Date: 15 Feb 05 - 07:50 PM It seems to me, SH, based on your most recent posts here, that you are really anxious to cause extreme pain and death to other hman beings. Torture rarely, if ever, achieves the outcome you envision exccept in movies. On the other hand, were we to accept your silly scenario, a humane injection of one of a number of drugs, like scopalomine, might have the desired effect , without causing pain, or providing pleasure for sadistic torturers. . |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: curmudgeon Date: 15 Feb 05 - 07:53 PM That last post was mine, not BG's, although I do believe she would concur -- Tom |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 15 Feb 05 - 07:55 PM Richard Bridge: Mea culpa, mea culpa! I confess to having written sloppily. The word "confessed" was inadvisedly used. I should have said "admitted". "Confessed" has a legal meaning which may include the legal conclusions that may follow. She admitted having done the acts. Her "defense" was mainly something like "I did those things for my client, and anything I as a lawyer do for my client is privileged." A lawyer is permitted--nay, expected--to do whatever the law and the rules of court permit in regard to defending (in this case) the case before the court. The acts for which she was charged and convicted had nothing to do with her building or presenting a defense in the case, and were in violation of court orders (which she had agreed to follow) and statutes having nothing to do with the carrying on of the case. Her status as the Sheikh's attorney did not allow her to, in effect, become part of the gang. Dave Oesterreich |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Bobert Date: 15 Feb 05 - 07:56 PM Good point, curmudgeon, but hubby wouldn't get his nationalistic rocks off that way... Bobert |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Feb 05 - 07:59 PM So you torture him and he tells you where, and then the bomb goes off somewhere else... So you adjust the story a bit more, to avoid that kind of problem. E.G. an hour is cutting it a bit fine, let's make it a day. But the real world just isn't as cut and dried as that, where the torture subjects cooperate in setting the parameters just right. That kind of scenario just isn't what torture is about, in the government run torture centres dotted around various places. It's about people who have fallen into the hands of the torturers, and are being processed, and they may or may have some kind of information which might be helpful in some way, if it can only be sorted out from the mass of irrelevant or misleading or totally fabricated stuff that people will come up with to stop the torture. (And the people who know least, or know nothing, are going to be the ones who come up with the most "information" - the ones with the infirmation are going to be the ones who hold out longest, and likely die under interogation.) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Bobert Date: 15 Feb 05 - 11:34 PM Excellent point, McG... Torture is nuthin' more than revenge... And most of the time aginast folks who weren't resposible for what ever yer all razed over, but other folks who had nuthin' to do with it... The Us is routinely participating in this behavior and guess what? Not only is is wrong and acan get a lot of our service men tortured down the road but to be perfectly honest... I don't want to live around these US servie people when they return home with lots of mental problems.... These are gonna be the folks who kill their wives... Bobert |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 16 Feb 05 - 11:27 AM There are, seems to me, two separate objections that can be made to the use of torture to induce confessions: 1. Of course, the humanitarian reason. This needs no elaboration. 2. The practical legal reason, that whatever response is obtained is AT LEAST questionable. Thus the use of torture is at least partly a means of extorting a desired answer as opposed to a true answer. And unless the answer that comes forth can be strongly corroborated from independent sources, it cannot be trusted. But they have to be independent sources, not led to by the "confession" extracted. There is a doctrine in the law called "the fruit of the poisoned tree". The idea is that anything that grows out of a "poisoned" source must be rejected, even if the same facts would have been fine if they had been arrived at independently. This is intended to discourage illegitimate means of acquiring evidence. Thus, torture as a means of getting evidence is not only wrong but (if the matter is handled correctly) ineffective. All of that is in the legal realm. In a military application, only the humanitarian argument against torture retains its full strength (and I want you to know that I consider that sufficient). The exigencies of war tend (note I said "tend") to trump the second argument. Even so, and even for warlike purposes, the possible unreliability of torture-induced information makes its use dangerous. Dave Oesterreich |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Richard Bridge Date: 16 Feb 05 - 12:40 PM So the issue becomes one of whether the acts she admitted doing constitute the crimes in question. Better. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Don Firth Date: 16 Feb 05 - 01:34 PM Susu's Hubby poses a hypothetical situation to justify torture. The choice is not "1 terrorist over ten thousand innocent civilians?" It's never this cut-and-dried. During this same kind of discussion, someone almost invariably boilerplates this sort of hypothetical situation into the mix in an attempt to justify their position. Tyrants hate to be restricted in any way, and would-be tyrants suffer from the same yearnings to eliminate all impediments to their obtaining absolute power. Undoubtedly some similar argument was offered by King John while he was being "persuaded" to sign the Magna Carta. One could go through this hypothetical situation point by point to determine just how likely much of it is. For example, in the case of an imminent massive explosion, how likely is it that we would find out about it by capturing one of the terrorists involved in the plot who knows all the relevant details? Remotely possible, I guess, but not bloody likely. And how likely is it that such a person would tell the truth, even under torture? Again, not bloody likely. It would be more likely that they would give false information, send people on a wild goose chase, and the bomb would go off anyway. There are much better, more reliable ways of finding out about terrorist attacks ahead of time and forstalling them. An efficient overseas intelligence service and cooperation with the intelligence services of other countries is the best way to go. Plus an administration that listens to its intelligence services rather than blowing them off they way it did before 9/11. This is a poor—and spurious—argument for running the Bill of Rights and the Geneva Convention through the shredder. Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: US Justice System Dealt Severe Blow... From: Bobert Date: 16 Feb 05 - 03:55 PM And just to take Uncle DaveO's excellent point one step further, the creedence that the US military places on information gathered thru torture might explain why it keeps getting surprised and caught with it's pants down (pun intended) in Iraq... Bobert |
