BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq

Subject: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 06:15 PM

Sorry about the typo in the Subject Title. This issue cropped up in another thread so I thought I'd start a new one.

New York Times Article Here

I heard her (Ms. Sgrena, a 56-year-old reporter for the communist daily Il Manifesto) interviewed by the BBC. Her English is not too good, but it is clear she maintains the Italians were not aware of a checkpoint or demand to stop. The Americans say they fired at the engine block. She told her English interviewer that she and her guard were in the back seat. The driver leapt out of the car and tried to identify himself, apparently he wasn't hit, though the car was destroyed.

That's all I've heard, other then that Rumsfeld apologized. Clearly a tragic situation and again, I'll wait a bit for more information. If the Americans didn't make it clear it was a checkpoint, the apology should come from the top. But right now it isn't clear. I thought everybody is supposed to stop at checkpoints which would make them pretty obvious.

I was told a true story about a man who drove through a military base checkpoint on purpose. He was depressed and trying to get shot and he succeeded, and that was within a city in the US.

According to the interview, she said they were approaching the airport, which is a natural place for a checkpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 06:42 PM

Did you say for the Communist daily? Ipso facto my friend!She claims it was a deliberate act.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 06:49 PM

When you dont have any exciting news you try and create some? I think it was done on purpose; and is a valuable lesson for all journalists to take war seriously.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 07:52 PM

It's just another sad case of collateral damage.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peace
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 08:03 PM

It's a war zone. Journalists are no more protected than anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 09:01 PM

Unfortunately the lady herself is saying that the car was not speeding, and that she was deliberately ambushed with no sounds or warning shots - 400 bullets struck the car - she was carrying information that she says is detrimental to the USA you see ... more conspiracies, no doubt...

Wonder how long now before the Italian Politicians bend to the local popular pressure to leave Iraq now?

The US troops on the ground are doubtless scared, terrified that any vehicle, or anything by the side of the road may explode and kill them. The British had many years to get used to that sort of situation in Ireland, while US money was being channelled to the IRA - the US troops are in comparison poorly trained for the sort of situation they now find themselves in - not really their fault I agree!

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 09:01 PM

I suspect that a lot of people are getting accidentally shot through misunderstanding and nervous soldiers. Most of them you won't hear this much about, however. If it convinces the Italian government to listen to its own populace and pull its troops out of Iraq, fine with me. Italy should not be tacitly supporting this oil war anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 01:11 AM

From CBC news:

"The U.S. military said the Americans used hand and arm signals, flashing white lights and fired warning shots to get the speeding car to stop at the roadblock.

But in an interview with Italian La 7 TV, Sgrena disputed the claim, saying "there was no bright light, no signal." She also has said the car was travelling at normal speed.

Her editor, Gabriele Polo, said Italian officials told him 300-400 rounds were fired at the car. Italian military officials said two other intelligence agents were wounded in the shooting; U.S. officials said it was only one. "

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: NH Dave
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 02:46 AM

Tonight NBC News showed the sign the Italians drove past, giving notice that there was a check point ahead and that all vehicles must stop. The sign was written in English and in what I suppose to be Arabic or Iraqi. I suppose if the Americans had considered that Italian intel experts and their drivers could not read English, they would have written it in Italian as well.

President Bush has apologised, and assured the Italians that there would be a full inquiry.

On the other hand, our troops have had their fill of locals trying for instant salvation ignoring such signs, detonating their explosives and killing everyone around, so we have learned that prompt, well though out action frequently foils those plans.

I spent many months sent to various countries where English is not the predominant language. I felt it incumbent on me to learn how the locals wrote signs telling automobile drivers to stop, yield, one way, and avoid other instantly deadly situations.

I feel very sorry for the Italians, the newswoman, and especially for the heroic Italian Secret Service Man, but accidents and death are a constant companion in situations like these. This is why we call it war.   

I expect that as this story plays out, everyone will be found to have been doing his job as detailed in his operating instructions and litle additional blame will be laid on the American troops or the Italian driver.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 05:44 AM

.. as bloody usual ...

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 06:59 AM

Well here's what Kendall said about it in another thread: "Over there, you are surrounded by friend and foe who all look alike. They (the Italians) asked for it when they refused to stop."

So it's obviously a good bit more simple than some mudcatters have realised - though I'm not sure in what way an Italian journalist looks like an Iraqi insurgent (or Syrian insurgent for that matter). Makes you wonder why Bush expressed regret, why Rumsefld apologised and why the US has launched an inquiry.

It's just a pity Ms Sgrena and her colleagues have a government and head of state to speak up for them. If they'd been Iraqi, with no such namby-pamby luxury to speak of, they could have ben murdered without the slightest risk of embarrassment to the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 08:25 AM

She was quoted as saying it was dark, there were no lights or signals of any kind and suddenly a tank opened up with about 400 rounds... doubtless why she believes that it was an ambush - of course the soldiers with their little green goggles would have seen clearly the approaching vehicle from a long distance away ...

Yes, George has promised a whitewash inquiry...

He has had to make a noise, cause the Italian public have been making loud protests about wanting their troops home - I don't know if that is before Xmas... ;-) [Aussie Political Joke!]

Of course now that we know that she works for a Communist Newspaper, all Right Thinking Americans will just doubtless believe George...

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 08:36 AM

I could be wrong but it still seems like another deadly unfortunate incident in a war zone. The Italians probably should have requested an escourt, especially since they were traveling after dark. People do stupid things when they are in a hurry and I think there is some blame to be shared by both the Italians and the U.S. Armed Forces,

No one deserved to die, of course, and this incident will receive much more attention as it's been pointed out than if it happened to an Iraqi.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 08:42 AM

Another "unfortunate incident", Private Gardi Gardev a member of a Bulgarian patrol was shot dead near Baghdad last Friday, the Bulgarians stated that the firing had come from a nearby US post.
It`s all that heroin they are getting from Afghanastan.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 09:56 AM

No, I think it may be the after-effects of raising some not too bright American teenagers on "shooter" videogames, and then sending them overseas to shoot real people. Then too, it could be that, plus the heroin...

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 11:19 AM

It is only collateral damage so it does not count. Now if it was an American that would be different!

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 01:01 PM

"Another 'unfortunate incident', Private Gardi Gardev a member of a Bulgarian patrol was shot dead near Baghdad last Friday, the Bulgarians stated that the firing had come from a nearby US post."

And if more of the story were included we'd learn that the Bulgarian patrol had been firing at an Iraqi car and that a U.S. communications post was in a direct line of fire behind the car. Oddly enough the U.S. communications post ordered return fire. Apparently the Bulgarians were unaware of the location of the U.S. communications post.

No one deserved to die in this incident either but they did. I suppose the U.S. is ultimately the blame for initiating this discretionary war and occupation, while relying on inaccurate intelligence.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 01:17 PM

Not what I read in the Guardian [UK], "direct line of fire" was not stated, please do not believe any statment from the US regarding deaths by friendly fire, according to them it is always the other peoples fault, did you ever read anything different?.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 01:35 PM

"" please do not believe any statment from the Guardian [UK] regarding deaths by friendly fire, according to them it is always the US's fault, did you ever read anything different?. ""


So blind faith in one source is justified, but not in another?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 01:36 PM

A tank unloads close to 400 rounds on a car and only one person was killed ? Either the gunner is a very poor shot or the folks in the car were VERY lucky. Something doesn't sound right here.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Raedwulf
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 02:28 PM

Nope, Wesley, sounds about right actually. Machine guns aren't supposed to be deadly accurate, they're not designed to be (that's what snipers are for). They're supposed to lay down a large volume of fire in a short space of time (600 rounds a minute, or thereabouts, per barrel) within a reasonably (not precisely) accurate area to suppress (i.e kill for preference) hostile activity.

A car heading towards you at any sort of normal road speed is probably moving faster than you'd like (machine guns are really anti infantry weapons) & unless the road is dead straight & the car is heading directly towards you...

The saddest part of this is the death of Nicola Calipari, a genuine hero in a world & age that uses superlatives much too freely. The next saddest thing is that no-one will ever know the truth of what happened. The US military is not going to tell the truth, because the military never does (the US is no worse, & not much better, than anyone else in this regard), even if it knows what the truth actually is (not always the easiest thing in the world to establish). The eyewitnesses are in no position to be objective.

But a very brave man is dead as a result. RIP Signor Calipari.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 03:10 PM

Charlie Noble said:

It's just another sad case of collateral damage.

Despite the way that phrase is thrown around in the media, the term "collateral damage" is a term of art in the US military. It does not refer to damage or wounding or death of personnel; it refers to damage to real estate and/or infrastructure, incidental to military operations directed to actual military targets. Thus, damage to a museum, say, beside an attacked strategic bridge would constitute "collateral damage", whereas the wounding or death of someone within the museum is NOT "collateral damage".

It's is a very specific and useful term which, like to many other useful words and phrases in the language, has been thrown around so carelessly that it is likely to cause misunderstanding.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 04:58 PM

One undisputable fact is, that the US are top of the league when it comes to "friendly fire".

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 05:30 PM

On the button, Raedwulf.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 05:41 PM

They lead in "unfriendly fire" too, don't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: gnu
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 05:52 PM

Top notch. Don't fuck with the eagle til you learn to fly.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Kaleea
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 05:55 PM

We may never know the whole truth about this & many other aspects of this war, and this is unfortunate. The pentagon poop sheet for the reporters tells us what they want us--the people--to know. The generals & leaders at the top speak of "collateral damage," perhaps as real estate. timothy mcveigh also spoke of collateral damage, but as human lives---that which was necessary to further his cause. Many of the US & UN troops have most assuredly been listed in that category. I see the ones who made it out alive, from what ever where ever hell they were sent to, all the time when I take my father to & from the local VA Medical Center.   "collateral damage" or the injured, MIA, KIA, casualties of war, mysterious illnesses seen in veterans, VietNam vets in the streets. It won't stop as long as politicians keep "taking us" to war as they sit in their posh offices & homes provided at the taxpayers' expense. Oh, yeah. The war at our expense, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 06:52 PM

One of the initial reports that came out was that the Italians claim that they had been pre-approved to go throught the check-point without having to stop (not a normal circumstance), but that the troops at the check-point had not been so informed. All they knew was that a car was approaching, they signaled it to stop, and it kept on coming, so they did what they were supposed to do. After all, as far as they knew, it could have been loaded with explosives.

But we'll probably never know. Everybody in this one has an ax to grind.

No matter which side you sniff, it smells a bit rotten.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 06:55 PM

It's Monday night and Ms. Sgrena is making charges that the US targeted her because it disapproves of ransoming the captives taken by insurgent/terrorist/kidnappers.

1) I agree that it is a poor not to say counterproductive policy to ransom such captives.
2) I really doubt that the US targets ransomed captives, particularly as a roadside target.
3) The 'journalist' in question has volunteered this as an unfounded accusation which calls into question her status as a journalist.
4) During an interview with her admittedly bad English a couple days ago, she said she was in the back seat. Now she says she knows what speed they were doing as well as the fact that there were no warnings from the Americans.

So I'm sensing some serious bogosity on the part of Ms Sgrena.

For their part the Americans say it was an impromptu checkpoint, which they do many times for many reasons, this time because there was an American government official due at the airport.

I agrew with Raedwulf that there are no impartial humans involved in this affair, and unless it was on tape we'll never know. But a good man is gone and the spin is gaining momentum.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 07:08 PM

I don't know why anyone would be surprised by this story, and others of a similar nature.

Remember the first gulf war? The British army lost a total of fourteen men in that one, nine of them killed by one trigger happy pilot in an A10 Tankbuster, who apparently couldn't tell the difference between the obsolete Iraqi vehicles (mostly of Eastern origin), and our own bang up to date personnel carriers.

In every conflict from WW2 to Vietnam and beyond, stories abound of friendly fire incidents involving US troops, even artillery shelling their own front lines, and rear areas.

Of course there are instances of British, and other nationality, friendly fire incidents, but nowhere near as many. This may be related to the age old love affair between Americans and their guns. Time to think again guys. Do you really believe that the best way to combat evil is to blow its head off with the biggest equaliser you can afford? How does that make you any better than the people you shoot?

Most of us this side of the pond didn't want this war, and I suspect that most Americans didn't either. If the Blair/Bush siamese twins hadn't lied their heads off, we wouldn't have been there. I must say though that once we were there, I would feel safer around a bunch of Tommies than Yanks. It's all a question of how much time they spend thinking before they shoot.

DT.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 07:08 PM

"collateral damage"

I suppose I should know better than to use such jargon.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 07:19 PM

Canadians learned about so-called, U.S. "friendly fire", very early on in this game.

Who needs enemies when you have friends like this?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 07:30 PM

Do you really believe that the best way to combat evil is to blow its head off with the biggest equaliser you can afford?

Yes indeed. Many of us do believe this, although I would ammend it to say that many of us believe that the best way to combat "evil" is to blow its head off with the biggest equaliser we can get our hands on whether we can afford it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 07:34 PM

My dad was a RAAF WWII multi-engine pilot - he was stationed in Scotland for part of the time especially near the end of the European phase (incidentally his original training group from which he was detached due to temporary eye problems was almost wiped out during bombing runs over Europe) - one less than thrilling task was to tow a target drogue for the hot shit trainee fighter pilots to 'practice' on - he often came home with holes in the rear end - lucky the plane - an Anson if I remember - did not carry a tail gunner...

My mother's father marched around Flanders in WWI & acted as a prisoner guard (interesting incident where he took a loaded rifle off a prisoner!) in Australia during WWII.

Both liked Americans very much as individual people, but had an intense fear/dislike to be anywhere near the US military carrying live ammo! My mother's sister was an Yank War Bride, BTW...

'Friendly Fire' was well known by these 2 and talked about quietly and the US had the worst reputation. The line from the British guy who survived the US attack mentioned above about his friends saying "Don't worry about the enemy, but keep looking over your shoulder for the bloody Yanks!" which they said before he left was not so funny afterwards....

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 07:58 PM

As an American, all I can say is these are horrible events. Nobody wants to kill their friends. If you'll remember, there was a popular sports hero who volunteered for active service after 9/11 who was hit by friendly fire and killed in Afghanistan last year. It ain't just America's allies, it's Americans who are hit by friendly fire, and there is none of it good.

Right after I sent off my last post, a local TV show on journalistic issues covered this very subject. The show is mastered by Emily Rooney, a pretty savvy interviewer/ journalist (and daughter of Andy Rooney, erstwhile reporter and longtime commentator on 'Sixty Minutes'). Anyhow, Emily had on a military affairs specialist, an American Islamic Congress representative, and an American journalist all who are familiar with that route on which Ms. Sgrena was shot. Basically:

1) The affair happened at night, which is a poor time to be traveling. People with control over their schedules do not travel the route at night. Which led to the terrorists releasing Ms. Sgrena at night, an unfortunate setting for events to follow.

2) Pretty much all the people on the show had been told at one point or another when traveling the patrolled roads: "Gee, I almost lit you up" by American troops, meaning, they were thought to be traveling too fast, too close, or weren't expected when they thought they were, and came close to being targets.

3) They were all suspicious of Ms. Sgrena being so sure she was 'targeted', similar to my comments above.

4) American prestige is affected, and there better be an investigation, and it better be made transparent.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: DougR
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 08:21 PM

I don't think it was a deliberate act on the part of the U. S. forces. I agree with Charlie Noble. It was a sad accident.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 08:30 PM

Unfortunately bullets don't know they were started on their way by accident and seem to be unable to respond to subsequent requests to NOT hit the target they were aimed at.... My young (US - when they were living here for a while) cousin was nearly hit in the head by a .22 that discharged 'by accident' in their home.

Trigger happy is dangerous, but usually 'accidental'.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 10:17 PM

Well gol danged....

Here are my reasons for thinking the US military palnned on killing this woman:

A.) Her driver was well aware of the dangers of driving to the airport and being so, would have beem taking all the precautions.

B.) Anyone with an I.Q. greater than that of an animal cracker would know not to speed at a US checkpoint.

C.) The US doesn't appreciate other countries negotiating with *insurgents*...

Had this been one tank round, yeah, okay maybe an accident. One tank round stops a car dead.... But this was two rounds... This, just as in last weeks assaniation in Lebenon, smells of neocon politics...

The message? Simple. Step outta line the man will come an' take you away...

Just more terrorism on the Bushites part...

Crooks, liars and murderers...

No wonder they don't support a World Court... Heck, these thugs would clog up the dockets...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Jouranlist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 10:26 PM

Apparently no statistics are kept about killings at checkpoints in Iraq, although these are very common. The only relatively unusual thing about this one is that it involved non-Iraqis.

The suggestion that someone sitting in the backseat of a car cannot have any awareness of the speed of the vehicle is a bit strange. If Ms. Sgrena says they were travelling at 25 to 30 miles an hour, that seems pretty likely to have been the case. Especially since that is what the driver apparently says as well.

I doubt if an internal invesigation by the US authorities will be seen as adequate by the Italians. If Bush has any sense he'll ensure that full cooperation is given to a thorough independent investigation. But I doubt if that will be allowed.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 04:23 AM

... as usual ...

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 07:58 AM

"The Italians probably should have requested an escourt, especially since they were traveling after dark. People do stupid things when they are in a hurry and I think there is some blame to be shared by both the Italians and the U.S. Armed Forces."

How did you reach that conclusion Charley? If it's just your idle speculation, why no wait for the inquiry, which might at least be able to establish who knew what, when. According to Italy's foreign minister, Gianfranco Fini, "all the necessary contacts were made." If that is the truth, we must hope there is some incontrovertible documentary evidence, otherwise it seems there are plenty of Americans only too keen to clutch at any excuse for blaming the victims.

Robomatic, why would a backseat passenger not be able to estimate the speed of a car? In Ms Sgrena's case, there was a driver, and it's not inconceivable that she's discussed the matter with him. Stranger things have happened. And why would a passenger have to be sitting upfront to know whether warning shots were fired? I wonder if some of you guys realise how prejudiced you're sounding. And no, that doesn't mean I buy Ms Sgrena's theory that she was targeted (a theory, incidentally, that she did not repeat in a recent BBC interview). It just means I'm willing to give the inquiry a chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 08:34 AM

And why would a passenger have to be sitting upfront to know whether warning shots were fired? I wonder if some of you guys realise how prejudiced you're sounding.

Peter, you're mixing up different posts from different people. Robomatic has never mentioned warning shots but only warnings or demands to stop. The 'warning shots' have been mentioned by Foolestroupe and (in a quote) by Dianavan. Robomatic's remark makes a lot of sense, if he's speaking about visual information which is much more difficult to get from a backseat.

And, BTW, I agree that I can hear shots from the backseat as easily as I can from the front seat. But warning shot do not sound much different from targeting shots. However, from the front seat I might see the direction of the shots much better than from the front seat. That's what makes the difference between a warning shot and later shots.

However, prejudiced contributions without waiting for the result of inquiries are the backbone of all Mudcat political discussions.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 09:50 AM

Gee, Peter, you're right. I wasn't there and I don't have access to any inside information. I was making what I thought was a reasonable speculation. Sorry if it seemed like a conclusion.

I expect there will be at some more details that will come from whatever investigation is completed, given the concern of our Italian ally and the interest of the media. But I could be wrong.

Were there tank cannon rounds or machine gun fire directed at this car? People seem to be talking about both. Tank cannon rounds wouldn't have left much of anything to investigate in my humble opinion.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 12:20 PM

Hey, thanks for the last few posts, esp. clarification by Wolfgang. My comments about being in the rear seat (as I understood from the interview I heard with Ms. Sgrena on the Beeb, AND last night's discussion among journalists on Emily Rooney's show "Greater Boston") I agree that Ms. Sgrena might have discussed the issue with the driver after the fact, but in that case she didn't KNOW the speed, she only KNEW what she'd been told. As a journalist and in particular in reconstructing these sad events, she has a responsibility to stick to what she actually knows. Secondly, it has been my personal experience that in an unfamiliar vehice, I have been going much faster than I thought I was, and that was in daylight not under fire.

As of this date, the Italian officials have apparently dismissed Ms. Sgrena's unfounded charges that she was targeted, but are very anxious to have an adequate explanation from the Americans, which they are absolutely entitled to.

I reviewed some past unhappy occasions where someone's military took out some civilians or 'friendlys' and the common denominator seems to be that there are several layers of stories that must be gone through. The initial denial, the initial explanation blaming the victim, the gradual retreat as parts of the story fall to investigators, and the final "close as you're gonna get" assemblage, often put together not by the military, but by someone trained in fact checking. Often the military will give it the nod, sort of like what happened with "Blackhawk Down".

I'm always interested in how some parties chime into a thread with all the answeres before all the facts are out, and what motivates that kind of reaction. I'm thinking of starting a thread purely based on the idea of 'SPIN'. I'm not sure if it needs to be based on an event or can be purely about perception, but right now I don't want to use someone's death as a centerpiece.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 12:45 PM

The Italians say that "everything was cleared" or something like that. Cleared when, and with whom? I understand that this was a sort of on-the-fly temporary roadblock, which is done routinely. It's quite conceivable that the clearance, if any, was passed along to those in charge of regular roadblocks, but that it didn't get to another organization which decided at some point to put up a temporary. Is that just speculation? Of course.

But the idea that there was what would amount to an ambush to kill a rescued victim because of disapproval of negotiations with the other side just won't wash. Not just on a self-serving basis of "That's reprehensible, and WE wouldn't do a thing like that," but on the much better basis that it would serve no purpose, and couldn't be kept quiet afterwards.

Now, under stressful conditions, with snap judgments having to be made, it's quite possible that some young soldier(s) made a bad mistake. That is quite common, both in warfare and in police work. I wouldn't be at all surprised.

But an ambush? Naaaah!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: ard mhacha
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 12:51 PM

Again quite simply, why is it always the US involved in trigger-happy slaughter?, and you mention SPIN, right now the US dirty tricks dept are spinning out some incredible explanation that will only be believed by the citizenry of that land.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 01:42 PM

ard:
I would take it as a favor if you would put in a transliteration of how to pronounce your no doubt lovely name in standard American (or to you, 'dumbed down')English.

It is not always US originated 'trigger happy' slaughter. It is wherever and whenever young men at arms are stationed in durance vile. Need I remind you of the Boston Massacre, where a group of young English sponsored soldiers fired into a civilian mob merely because they were being pelted with stones. Are you aware they were put on trial IN BOSTON by those civilians, defended by John Adams, and found 'not guilty'?

Were you paying attention a few months ago when a French aid flight was fired upon by African resistance (or government) fighters. That the French with no more of a how-de-do then took out the entire airforce of that small nation?

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 02:38 PM

Of course for examples of British soldiers shooting civilians at checkpoints and in other circumstances, there's no need to go back to the 18th century, or across the Atlantic, as I know ard macha wouldn't deny.

There has evidently been a deliberate decision by the authorities not to collate statistics about killings at checkpoints in Iraq. However from the occasional news stories that make it through, when there is a specially dramatic or horrifying incident, it is pretty clear that there have been an awful lot of these killings. And the fact that no statistics are kept seems to imply that there can have been no serious attempt to investigate what went wrong in these cases.

I find the implication in a few posts that, if there had been a failure to inform the US authorities, this would mean that there could be no blame in shooting up the vehicle a bit bizarre.

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 02:50 PM

The US forces in Viet Nam got horrible bad press because they DID keep "body count"! You can't win fer losin' !!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Italian Journalist shot by GIs in Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 03:35 PM

"Good press", "Bad press" - is that really what it's about?

Rather than trying to find some way of killing as few innocent people as is humanly possible. Shouldn't an expression like "war on terror" imply that that kind of thing is not what is supposed to happen.

At least this killing is going to focus attention, for a short time anyway, and there are people with a bit of media muscle involved who are going to keep it alive for a little bit longer than would otherwise happen.